Edit: In response to the off-topic remarks, the purpose of my post/thread is to discuss if this recent change has addressed the possible 'micro' issue LaLush mentioned about in his thread.
I quoted Jinro for my intro because I wanted to bring peoples attention between the difference between moving shot and "patrol shot"; that is all. I am not saying we must make sc2 flying units like sc1 flying units neither am I saying we must make SC2 in general like SC1, I am simply starting a discussion on a topic I deem to be relevant and important because after watching the video in LaLush's thread 4 Cosair + a cannon was able to defeat 4+ Mutas[don't remember], while the same number of Phoenix were incapable of doing so in SC2.
It is not the UNITS, I am concerned about, it is whether we are able to use the MECHANICS/MICRO aspect of the game to say defeat the opposition where you would normally lose if you lacked such skills and the Phoenix is just an convenient example. I certainly felt this was not possible pre-patch 11 so am raising this discussion in junction with LaLush's thread.
Personal Comment: I do feel this is one of the most contributing/important points of a RTS game and my personal opinion is that a more intensive micro game is more fun than a less intensive micro game.
So recently there was a post discussing about micro in SC2 in comparison with BW. [http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121769]
Edit: FrozenArbiter: "Someone please tell Blizzard that when we say moving shoot, we really mean Animation Cancelling" I'd like that to be my Intro for this post.
(FA edit: Someone pointed out that it might not make sense to call patrol micro "animation cancelling". I was thinking of the ability for - say - a muta to chase a wraith without losing movement speed between shots when I heard moving shot, but some people seem to refer to their ability to snipe scourges without losing speed - ie, patrol micro. - FA)
With the recent Patch[11], the change made to the Phoenix is that it can Move while attacking. , now bear in mind folks that attacking before decelerating is different than attacking while moving. Did Blizzard fix anything by implementing this change?
I just tried it myself and I was not able to micro Phoenixs like Corsairs or maybe we're not suppose to micro in SC2 in that aspect.
Edit: Thanks to GX.Stigma's Phoenix video 2 post below, we now can shoot with a Phoenix while it is flying backwards when grouped with other Phoenixes.
Please put in your input on whether you think this change actually helps or not, provide your own experiences and stay on topic.
P.S- I have not mentioned about the Hellion micro..Blizz thinks adding 1 range will help and I have yet to try it out so: no experience=no comment. Do input yours though.
On May 07 2010 06:05 theqat wrote: There are a bunch of other threads discussing this. Anything with the word "patch" in the title on the first page of threads, for instance
how the hell do you always get the first thread on the newest patch?
On May 07 2010 06:05 theqat wrote: There are a bunch of other threads discussing this. Anything with the word "patch" in the title on the first page of threads, for instance
I know thats why I thought to conglomerate this specific discussion in a central topic, instead of posting in a PATCH NOTE topic where other possible, information could be there mixing up the discussion. If TL mods deem this topic to be excessive they can close it for all I mind.
I don't think gitching with the patrol key is really a sane way to design a modern RTS around. to make full use of move-shot, you want to move in and out according to your cooldown cycle anyways. Give it some time to see how it plays out.
As for the funny look, its protoss, they are allows to break physics.....
It still requires micro, moving and dancing around to stay away from the Mutas. Just micro of a slightly different sort, that's all (you know, since it's a different game?). If it's overpowered, Blizzard can just nerf the Phoenixes range or speed.
I mean, it's not like Corsair micro in SC1 required that much micro to use effectively anyway. Nony himself said that the hard thing about Corsair micro was the multi-tasking, not the actual micro.
People are realllllly overreacting to this change...
On May 07 2010 06:07 CheAse wrote: i just played a tvz with hellions... I could l just harass the roaches on the ramp until they died to go harass probes
Did you know that you still need to micro your Phoenixes if you want them DOING something, rather than just flying around with Mutas chasing it endlessly?
Phoenix has 1 range more than Mutas, as well as a faster movement speed. This means you DO have to turn around to attack Mutas, which means you have to get closer. If you can PERFECTLY measure out 1 matrix and the distance that both your Phoenixes and the enemy Mutas will move in the short time you right click behind the Phoenixes, you'd be able to SC1 Move Shot anyways.
On May 07 2010 06:16 Zeke50100 wrote: Did you know that you still need to micro your Phoenixes if you want them DOING something, rather than just flying around with Mutas chasing it endlessly?
Phoenix has 1 range more than Mutas, as well as a faster movement speed. This means you DO have to turn around to attack Mutas, which means you have to get closer. If you can PERFECTLY measure out 1 matrix and the distance that both your Phoenixes and the enemy Mutas will move in the short time you right click behind the Phoenixes, you'd be able to SC1 Move Shot anyways.
OR you can just tell your Phoenixes to fly past the Mutas.
This really isn't true. Phoenix will be exactly as good against Vikings as they were before. Vikings have much more range than them, and so dancing back and forth to shoot will just open them up to more fire than standing still and firing like they do now. They might be marginally stronger against Battlecruisers, but they'll still do terrible damage against them and get shredded by Marines. But, yeah, they'll be a lot stronger versus Mutalisks, and also stronger versus Corruptors. Which isn't really a bad thing in my book.
Coolest shit ever. I dont care what anyone says. I dont even care that its not like sc1. Give this some time in the hands of decent players before knocking it. I dont know how anyone here can be complaining that this takes no skill etc. Its so obviously something that the elite players will be able to manipulate better than average players. Its not like sc1, but i still think its something that in time will be amazing.
On May 07 2010 06:11 Captain Peabody wrote: It still requires micro, moving and dancing around to stay away from the Mutas. Just micro of a slightly different sort, that's all (you know, since it's a different game?). If it's overpowered, Blizzard can just nerf the Phoenixes range or speed.
I mean, it's not like Corsair micro in SC1 required that much micro to use effectively anyway. Nony himself said that the hard thing about Corsair micro was the multi-tasking, not the actual micro.
People are realllllly overreacting to this change...
People aren't overreacting! I, for one, afraid that they leave this mechanic and call it a deal without looking into other units that could benefit from it. And besides, you can't properly focus fire while "microing" phoenix now.
All what they needed to do is to make air and hovering (vulture, archon and workers are hovering in BW, don't know about SC2) units attack before decelerating and that would make ALL air units more fun to micro. Right now they just put lame work around for one unit instead of fixing it globally.
If it so challenging for their programmers to change order of attacking and decelerating that they need horrible work around for it, then they should be fucking ashamed of themselves and quit the job, cause that's just ludicrous.
On May 07 2010 06:17 Bosu wrote: It might be too easy, but I think it looks fucking awesome.
If it worked as people want it, it would look just as awesome AND impressive at the same time, dude.
OR you can just tell your Phoenixes to fly past the Mutas.
Well, sure, so long as the Mutas are sitting perfectly still staring at the sky and twiddling their thumbs.
Face it: this change increases micro, and it makes a cool unit even more awesome. If it's overpowered, then they can nerf the Phoenix, but people need to stop complaining about stuff they don't understand.
People aren't overreacting! I, for one, afraid that they leave this mechanic and call it a deal without looking into other units that could benefit from it. And besides, you can't properly focus fire while "microing" phoenix now.
So when you want to focus fire, stop and shoot. This introduces a tradeoff whenever you use the auto-shoot function...do I stop and focus fire, or do I trust my range and speed to do the job for me?
The optimal choice will be different depending on the unit you're facing.
On May 07 2010 06:20 HuskyTheHusky wrote: Am I the only one laughing hysterically at that video? Its seriously so funny.
I dont know what it means for balance, but just watch it, hahahah
The phoenixes look 10x more bamf than they did before, shooting backwards and all haha. I wouldn't mind the change if it was a little more difficult to execute. I'd say attack or patrol needs to be used in combination of some sort.
People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
On May 07 2010 06:07 CheAse wrote: i just played a tvz with hellions... I could l just harass the roaches on the ramp until they died to go harass probes
sc II aka red alert 4 ^^ getting more sad day by day... but yeah it looks "awesome", it also looks hillarious in a way of a joke, not how it I wanna play a competitive rts ;() hope they fix it, im surprised there are even a few people who are positiv about this o_o
People aren't overreacting! I, for one, afraid that they leave this mechanic and call it a deal without looking into other units that could benefit from it. And besides, you can't properly focus fire while "microing" phoenix now.
So when you want to focus fire, stop and shoot. This introduces a tradeoff whenever you use the auto-shoot function...do I stop and focus fire, or do I trust my range and speed to do the job for me?
The optimal choice will be different depending on the unit you're facing.
Good job picking the least significant part of the post.
On May 07 2010 06:07 CheAse wrote: i just played a tvz with hellions... I could l just harass the roaches on the ramp until they died to go harass probes
that makes absolutely no sense
my bad, was distracted when posting. Fixed it though...
Meant to say that the range upgrade is pretty abusive for roaches and the roaches blocking the ramp early game
phoenix now attack on their own when u issue a move command. what if i just wanted to move them?. they are the only unit in the game that attack on their own when u issue a move command. talk about dumbing down the game. very imba
This is not moving shot. Stop getting butthurt thinking that Blizzard doesn't understand what you meant about moving shot. This is not a mechanical change (like moving shot would be) this is a direct buff to the design of the Phoenix specifically.
Someone pointed out that it might not make sense to call patrol micro "animation cancelling". I was thinking of the ability for - say - a muta to chase a wraith without losing movement speed between shots when I heard moving shot, but some people seem to refer to their ability to snipe scourges without losing speed - ie, patrol micro.
On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
God. Thank you so much for bringing some sense to the thread (a few others did as well so thanks to them too.)
I'll cross post my reply to the reddit link of this.
I think it's interesting and I'll wait to see if it's "broken" as people like to yell immediately at any new change.
And before the "auto micro" crowd gets going. It's not auto micro, you still need to control the unit. Yes it's less micro than the mutalisk required in SC1 for a moving shot but that doesn't mean your phoenixes are darting in and out against enemy units all on their own. Some people say it's not adding any micro but this adds micro in battles that previously were just attack move fights. You would see this often in larger battles, attack move pheonixes into attack move mutas/whatever. Now the phoenix player can make a difference with micro by possibly darting in and out.
The possible broken situation is with phoenix chasing other units down. This might not be broken though if the other player can split up the units that are being chased, so the phoenixes will need to split targets or they will only get the chance to kill a smaller portion of the enemy army or even a single unit. This is added micro.
If you were shown a nuke for the very first time out of context you might think it was broken too. Just wait a little bit and see how it works out in a real game before you go insane screaming that the sky is falling and Blizzard is going with it.
On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
This is the beta, I'm sure blizz is throwing this out partly for experimentation to see how different sectors of the community reacts, while trolling the hell out of people.
Too bad there are no scourge in SC2. If you had scourge that could be speed boosted (with a cooldown) it would make for some fun to watch air battles against this new Phoenix "ability".
On May 07 2010 06:26 FrozenArbiter wrote: Someone pointed out that it might not make sense to call patrol micro "animation cancelling". I was thinking of the ability for - say - a muta to chase a wraith without losing movement speed between shots when I heard moving shot, but some people seem to refer to their ability to snipe scourges without losing speed - ie, patrol micro.
yes thats what i want for air units in general. vikings can almost do it because of their massive range and low attack stop but this would be much better for phonix instead of this auto ai
why does the phonix even look like an airplane with wings if it flies same speed to all directions, makes 0 sense what so ever
On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
or u can just move in a disoriented degree by the speedofphonix-speedofhunter=newfacingdegree angle, like u did with vultures vs lings in sc1
but nazgul stop saying its a hard task, its not lol (not that other things r tho)
On May 07 2010 06:30 Polemarch wrote: Some people have commented that muta behaviour has been changed. A critical balance question is, if mutas get within range of phoenixes, can they chase them down kill them with moving-shot?
For this to happen they'd need to be able to be microed to shoot without decelerating and have at least the same speed as the phoenix.
if this is true then were halfway to a comeback of mutaharass in tvz :p
Are you freaking kidding me? Where are you going to move to predict where your opponents units are going to fly 5 moves into the future. You have to be on this constantly in order to keep tracking your opponents units.
If it's to scout for overlords that's no different from shift + a-move + a-move + a-move except that they will shoot overlords faster due to no delay, consider it an attack buff against singular units.
On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
Some people have commented that muta behaviour has been changed. A critical balance question is, if mutas get within range of phoenixes, can they chase them down kill them with moving-shot?
For this to happen they'd need to be able to be microed to shoot without decelerating and have at least the same speed as the phoenix.
On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
Now watch them split their Mutas an flank you while you whatch your shift-rallied points fail.
Or watch your shift-rallies fail because you slightly misjudged the space between you and the enemy.
Honestly, I agree with Nazgul. People seem to really want SC1-style moving shot only because they have to push more buttons. Sure, let's purposefully inhibit the new, more powerful engine just so you have something to waste your time microing your units in a game where macro has become more important.
Absolute joke... You don't even need to attack move, you just..move and they do damage..
It's really nice that Blizzard is taking note of what TL.net is saying, but they missed the point COMPLETELY.. As Jinro was saying, what players meant was ANIMATION CANCELLING
why does the phonix even look like an airplane with wings if it flies same speed to all directions, makes 0 sense what so ever
Why is it shooting aliens in space? Why to Mutalisks flap their wings in space? Why are Terrans crazy rednecks with advanced futuristic technology inhabiting a ton of planets in the galaxy while fighting off hoards of aliens?
On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
the biggest problem with it i think it removing the necessity to turn around and fire which ends up giving the phoenix absolutely no decel. it's literally firing while moving. granted, you achieve similar affect in bw with mutas but it required a lot more apm and precision and mutas still had to move back or slow down when firing backwards.
One thing I would like to know since I can't play right now.
Did they give the Phoenix a passive ability that explains that they are able to move and shoot? Regardless of whether this is good/bad/great/horrible they should have a passive ability icon like hardened shields for Immortals to explain their ability.
why does the phonix even look like an airplane with wings if it flies same speed to all directions, makes 0 sense what so ever
Why is it shooting aliens in space? Why to Mutalisks flap their wings in space? Why are Terrans crazy rednecks with advanced futuristic technology inhabiting a ton of planets in the galaxy while fighting off hoards of aliens?
Cuz it looks cool!
weve been over this
logic and sense r different things. we dont want zerglings with machine guns but we do want zerglings with claws.
grow up man
dont tell me phonixes flying backwards with same speed of muta circling around its own speed with 100% corrected line is cool. its ridiculous
Haha watching it on a stream ingame is even more ridiculous.
On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Honestly, I agree with Nazgul. People seem to really want SC1-style moving shot only because they have to push more buttons. Sure, let's purposefully inhibit the new, more powerful engine just so you have something to waste your time microing your units in a game where macro has become more important.
Waste your time microing? Why do you even play the game? Microing is fun. And might as well automate every unit's behavior so as to not "inhibit" the engine.
Pretending like the fact that the phoenix is the fastest air unit in the game is somehow a downside to it auto attacking while moving is really, really funny.
On May 07 2010 06:32 mahnini wrote: the biggest problem with it i think it removing the necessity to turn around and fire which ends up giving the phoenix absolutely no decel. it's literally firing while moving. granted, you achieve similar affect in bw with mutas but it required a lot more apm and precision and mutas still had to move back or slow down when firing backwards.
Why is this such a big problem? What you describe is essentially a phoenix buff because they will move across the map faster. Did flying across the map with with a-move to hunt for overlords with your patch 10 phoenix require more micro than this? No.
What we see here is micro that is less intensive than SC:BW micro, but more/equally intensive than SC2 patch 11 micro so why is everyone so upset just because it mechanically looks different from what we're used to?
guys blizzard fucking knows what the difference between a moving shot is and what moving while shooting is. they know way more than you ever will about the game. they are trying something new, giving the phoenix the terran cobra's mechanics, and seeing what happens.
all these mods and people flipping out is hilarious
On May 07 2010 06:34 floor exercise wrote: Pretending like the fact that the phoenix is the fastest air unit in the game is somehow a downside to it auto attacking while moving is really, really funny.
It's a two sided deal though as Nazgul has already explained, if you care to bring up a real counterpoint to that then do so.
I mean if people like this imagine more units get this, what will become of this game lol, sure I'd enjoy my stalkers running backwards and shooting down everything that chases them with just 1 click but how does this benefit the game ;D 65 apm seems more and more suitable to play sc II on a high lvl ;()
On May 07 2010 06:38 RotterdaM wrote: I mean if people like this imagine more units get this, what will become of this game lol, sure I'd enjoy my stalkers running backwards and shooting down everything that chases them with just 1 click but how does this benefit the game ;D 65 apm seems more and more suitable to play sc II on a high lvl ;()
No, you can't do that. You can't just take things to the extreme, you lose your point.
Example. LOL hardened shield, so broken if you make all shields work like that.
On May 07 2010 06:36 bongjwa wrote: guys blizzard fucking knows what the difference between a moving shot is and what moving while shooting is. they know way more than you ever will about the game. they are trying something new, giving the phoenix the terran cobra's mechanics, and seeing what happens.
all these mods and people flipping out is hilarious
It is an interesting mechanic, I agree, but what saddens me is the possibility that Blizzard COMPLETELY missed the point of Lalush's topic about shooting while moving.
Unless they are completely against the idea that people with more APM should be able to make their units A LOT more cost efficient (JD's muta is like 3 times more valuable compared to my muta, for example, just because of the way JD can micro it) and just didn't want to add that "buggy" animation cancelling back..
The way phoenix shoots now doesn't require that much micro at all.. You just spam move command and..That's it. Even the biggest newb can do it. Granted, you still need to multitask and you can't just overly focus on this micro, but it's unbelievably easy to do, unlike in BW
On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
I'd say the massive reaction to this is due to the change affecting mid-level play the most; It requires far less APM than (ugh, i hate to do this) SC1 so it's easier to macro while controlling your phoenix. In high level games this does not matter, since people compensate by being fucking godly with their control.
However, i do predict a nerf for the phoenix in the future, so that phoenix will deal less DPS and act as a, excuse the expression, a bee flying around and annoying the fuck out of you. A bee that is hard to catch and damage, but very easy for the P to control while doing other stuff.
On May 07 2010 06:32 mahnini wrote: the biggest problem with it i think it removing the necessity to turn around and fire which ends up giving the phoenix absolutely no decel. it's literally firing while moving. granted, you achieve similar affect in bw with mutas but it required a lot more apm and precision and mutas still had to move back or slow down when firing backwards.
Why is this such a big problem? What you describe is essentially a phoenix buff because they will move across the map faster. Did flying across the map with with a-move to hunt for overlords with your patch 10 phoenix require more micro than this? No.
What we see here is micro that is less intensive than SC:BW micro, but more/equally intensive than SC2 patch 11 micro so why is everyone so upset just because it mechanically looks different from what we're used to?
the fact that they can do this without decel makes mutas dead in the water, so to speak. i suppose the situation could be analogous with muta vs scourge in bw. if mutas in bw had a moving shot like phoenix scourge would not be effective at all. in sc2 phoenix have more range and are faster than mutas, factor in moving attack and they are practically untouchable with minimal micro.
logic and sense r different things. we dont want zerglings with machine guns but we do want zerglings with claws.
grow up man
dont tell me phonixes flying backwards with same speed of muta circling around its own speed with 100% corrected line is cool. its ridiculous
The funny thing about "Cool", is that it is a subjective term. I find it cool. I find the Phoenixes look cool as a unit, I find that the unit looks cool while flying sideways and backwards. I find the Phoenix cool.
On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Honestly, I agree with Nazgul. People seem to really want SC1-style moving shot only because they have to push more buttons. Sure, let's purposefully inhibit the new, more powerful engine just so you have something to waste your time microing your units in a game where macro has become more important.
Waste your time microing? Why do you even play the game? Microing is fun. And might as well automate every unit's behavior so as to not "inhibit" the engine.
Except hard-counters make up the game in its current state. If you don't properly macro/are even slightly delayed while macroing, you'll lose.
Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine.
Also, for some reason, people think anything related to the "Move" command isn't micro. If you can explain how perfectly timing your switches (due to the unit in question having a higher movement speed) and getting as many shots off as possible without being hit yourself is not micro, I'll give you a cookie.
On May 07 2010 06:07 CheAse wrote: i just played a tvz with hellions... I could l just harass the roaches on the ramp until they died to go harass probes
that makes absolutely no sense
How does It not make sense? Hellions range was increased by one (6) which doubles the range of roaches now. T's can harass Z's ramp blocked by Roaches early game. Not too complicated :O
If they want to implement the moving shot from BW like this then they should do the same thing for every unit, since it wasn't just a specific mechanic for only 1 unit in BW.
On May 07 2010 06:36 bongjwa wrote: guys blizzard fucking knows what the difference between a moving shot is and what moving while shooting is. they know way more than you ever will about the game. they are trying something new, giving the phoenix the terran cobra's mechanics, and seeing what happens.
all these mods and people flipping out is hilarious
Agreed. They obviously wanna try something new instead of changing the values for turning speed and acceleration/deceleration. (Look at the map editor if you wanna play with the values)
Whether it will work in the long run or not I don't claim to know. What I do know is I want to see some Youtube'd matches with lots of Phoenix now!
Oh I know what I'll do when P goes phoenixes, I'll just make more of that awesome Zerg AA, or some spores which take 12 sec to move if they ever need to root. Oh but I forgot about queens, those phoenixes will totally get rolled by my queens, RIGHT? lololol
Basically ZvP = really fast hydras or die. And then hydras still get gravbeamed.
On May 07 2010 06:45 lololol wrote: If they want to implement the moving shot from BW like this then they should do the same thing for every unit, since it wasn't just a specific mechanic for only 1 unit in BW.
Maybe they felt only the Phoenix truly needed it? The Phoenix was, after all, the only one of the AA units that was generally conceived as underpowered, unneeded, and unpopular (I liked it myself, and I know people like Nony did, too; however, the general community didn't share that thought)
The problem I think Blizzard are having, is that their engine is designed to have air units turn around their axis and aim while moving (in whatever direction they were previously heading).
It could perhaps be fixed if they forced the phoenix to actually face and accelerate towards its enemy before being able to fire (as you had to do in BW). And simply make them more responsive in the sense that they turn around faster with retained speed after having fired.
I don't think it's fair to say Blizzard haven't caught on to the fact that moving shot requires animation cancelling. I mean look at how fluidly the phoenix is moving right now. That wouldn't be possible without shortening its animation. They already cancelled what they could cancel of the firing animation. I think the problem lies with how the game is coded. They fixed "moving shot" and cancelled much of the animation, but because the game allows units to turn around their axis it doesn't look or feel right.
In brood war, even if you did patrol micro, your units had to turn and accelerate towards your enemy for the split second it required them to fire. However, they were more responsive when it came to maneuverability and turning around immediately with retained speed.
I don't know though. Shouldn't be too hard on this change without at least trying it out for a while.
*Edit: I should say I don't actually know if you can change the direction of the phoenix while it's gliding now. In that case it might still be an animation issue.
On May 07 2010 06:34 snowdrift86 wrote: Haha watching it on a stream ingame is even more ridiculous.
On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Honestly, I agree with Nazgul. People seem to really want SC1-style moving shot only because they have to push more buttons. Sure, let's purposefully inhibit the new, more powerful engine just so you have something to waste your time microing your units in a game where macro has become more important.
Waste your time microing? Why do you even play the game? Microing is fun. And might as well automate every unit's behavior so as to not "inhibit" the engine.
Except hard-counters make up the game in its current state. If you don't properly macro/are even slightly delayed while macroing, you'll lose.
Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine.
Also, for some reason, people think anything related to the "Move" command isn't micro. If you can explain how perfectly timing your switches (due to the unit in question having a higher movement speed) and getting as many shots off as possible without being hit yourself is not micro, I'll give you a cookie.
Sorry to reign on the pseudo-intellectual vibe you got going on here, but I'd like you to really read your own posts before making new ones.
And by this I mean infer all the implications of what you're saying, really read between the lines at what you're suggesting.
On May 07 2010 06:14 mahnini wrote: this is the most terrible change i've ever seen.
If it is true that you simply right click move away without patrol/attack/hold moving...then this is indeed the worst change this patch. It makes it EASYMODE.
as said, moving shot is not = right click and the unit attack/moves for you while you stay out of range infinitely. Any fucking noob can do that Blizzard.
On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
It IS easy though. It is so super easy that even a noob will have no trouble mastering it.
On May 07 2010 06:34 snowdrift86 wrote: Haha watching it on a stream ingame is even more ridiculous.
On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Honestly, I agree with Nazgul. People seem to really want SC1-style moving shot only because they have to push more buttons. Sure, let's purposefully inhibit the new, more powerful engine just so you have something to waste your time microing your units in a game where macro has become more important.
Waste your time microing? Why do you even play the game? Microing is fun. And might as well automate every unit's behavior so as to not "inhibit" the engine.
Except hard-counters make up the game in its current state. If you don't properly macro/are even slightly delayed while macroing, you'll lose.
Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine.
Also, for some reason, people think anything related to the "Move" command isn't micro. If you can explain how perfectly timing your switches (due to the unit in question having a higher movement speed) and getting as many shots off as possible without being hit yourself is not micro, I'll give you a cookie.
This new "micro" is a joke. It isn't challenging at all, it's same as the most basic kiting with stalkers vs zealots, for example. You move your stalkers back when zeals are moving close and once zeals retreat, you chase them. Except that it doesn't require attack-move command.. You just spam move.. It's like 5 times easier compared to BW.
Phoenix became some sort of moving fortress which automatically attacks units near it, without requiring to attack-move. This isn't micro
Everyone should make their own map with phoenixes and mutas (takes like 1 minute) and try it out before posting and saying the phoenix micro is super easy.
Excluding patrol micro you had to be facing and heading towards the opponent before firing. Even with patrol your units would turn around for a split second and change direction (although you could hardly notice it).
On May 07 2010 06:23 RotterdaM wrote: sc II aka red alert 4 ^^ getting more sad day by day... but yeah it looks "awesome", it also looks hillarious in a way of a joke, not how it I wanna play a competitive rts ;() hope they fix it, im surprised there are even a few people who are positiv about this o_o
Oh, come on, it is cool and funny and an attention sink and also gives the previously boring unit a unique bad-ass feel.
It's not like phoenixes auto-micro themselves now, you still need to manually maintain the proper distance to kite units. Just why exactly you don't like this?
On May 07 2010 06:34 snowdrift86 wrote: Haha watching it on a stream ingame is even more ridiculous.
On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Honestly, I agree with Nazgul. People seem to really want SC1-style moving shot only because they have to push more buttons. Sure, let's purposefully inhibit the new, more powerful engine just so you have something to waste your time microing your units in a game where macro has become more important.
Waste your time microing? Why do you even play the game? Microing is fun. And might as well automate every unit's behavior so as to not "inhibit" the engine.
Except hard-counters make up the game in its current state. If you don't properly macro/are even slightly delayed while macroing, you'll lose.
Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine.
Also, for some reason, people think anything related to the "Move" command isn't micro. If you can explain how perfectly timing your switches (due to the unit in question having a higher movement speed) and getting as many shots off as possible without being hit yourself is not micro, I'll give you a cookie.
This new "micro" is a joke. It isn't challenging at all, it's same as the most basic kiting with stalkers vs zealots, for example. You move your stalkers back when zeals are moving close and once zeals retreat, you chase them. Except that it doesn't require attack-move command.. You just spam move.. It's like 5 times easier compared to BW.
Phoenix became some sort of moving fortress which automatically attacks units near it, without requiring to attack-move. This isn't micro
I don't see you raping mutalisks without getting hit a single time.
On May 07 2010 06:45 Lollersauce wrote: Oh I know what I'll do when P goes phoenixes, I'll just make more of that awesome Zerg AA, or some spores which take 12 sec to move if they ever need to root. Oh but I forgot about queens, those phoenixes will totally get rolled by my queens, RIGHT? lololol
Basically ZvP = really fast hydras or die. And then hydras still get gravbeamed.
Yes or if you read all of the changes properly you'd see Infestors can NP air now, and would NP his Phoenix making them useless and keep them at your base as defense, and then immediately counter.
On May 07 2010 06:56 Kennigit wrote: Why are you guys freaking out when it's been live for like a hour? How about you play it for a week and then decide if it's terrible?
It's funny cuz people haven't been able to use Phoenixes well anyway. This change won't make the difference between them working or not for most people. But, all the better for me. =]
Jiminy Christmas, what was Blizzard thinking?! Giving the ability to move and shoot without costing APM is the dumbest thing evar, and it will kill Starcraft 2.
Just like how MBS killed SC2, since it reduces the APM required.
I have to say... it looks utterly bizarre. It's a buff to Protoss against muta (which I think was probably needed) but it is one hell of a strange buff.
The Phoenix needs a passive ability icon to explain it's firing while moving mechanic. The same way Immortals have a hardened shield passive ability icon to explain it's different shield mechanic.
On May 07 2010 06:23 RotterdaM wrote: sc II aka red alert 4 ^^ getting more sad day by day... but yeah it looks "awesome", it also looks hillarious in a way of a joke, not how it I wanna play a competitive rts ;() hope they fix it, im surprised there are even a few people who are positiv about this o_o
Oh, come on, it is cool and funny and an attention sink and also gives the previously boring unit a unique bad-ass feel.
It's not like phoenixes auto-micro themselves now, you still need to manually maintain the proper distance to kite units. Just why exactly you don't like this?
Maintaining the proper distance is more of a reaction thing, you just have to move back once enemy units start charging forward and chase when they are moving back..By using move command.You don't even need to attack-move AT ALL.
Compared to BW micro, it's simply a joke. I just hope it wasn't intentional from Blizzard to make it easier to micro for new players
On May 07 2010 06:14 mahnini wrote: this is the most terrible change i've ever seen.
If it is true that you simply right click move away without patrol/attack/hold moving...then this is indeed the worst change this patch. It makes it EASYMODE.
as said, moving shot is not = right click and the unit attack/moves for you while you stay out of range infinitely. Any fucking noob can do that Blizzard.
Blizzard is not going to make moving shot work like it did in SC1. The SC1 method didn't make any logical sense and was a gameplay bug. The SC2 method makes sense. It is made obvious that the unit can do this, which units can do it is well known, and how to do it is also equally obvious.
That you don't have to press 4 buttons to do it is pretty much like having MBS and rally mining. SC2 is more effective at having the user control the game than SC1 is.
It's really not gamebreaking at all in it's current state. Since they don't stack, you have to make sure that one phoenix doesnt fly into the mutas at all times to get picked off easily.
It would be if the phoenixes could perma stack, but I suppose if other units could perma stack too, it'd negate it, and we'd be left with BW style air micro
On May 07 2010 06:14 mahnini wrote: this is the most terrible change i've ever seen.
If it is true that you simply right click move away without patrol/attack/hold moving...then this is indeed the worst change this patch. It makes it EASYMODE.
as said, moving shot is not = right click and the unit attack/moves for you while you stay out of range infinitely. Any fucking noob can do that Blizzard.
Like spamming a-move/move/a-move/move is so hard that only a genius is able to do that.
On May 07 2010 06:31 MasterFwiffo wrote: I'd like to see this implemented in Hellions and Mutalisks too.
This very much, although I it is good to not give many units this new mechanic right away. I wouldn't be suprised at all if mutas got this in the next patch.
On May 07 2010 06:58 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: I have to say... it looks utterly bizarre. It's a buff to Protoss against muta (which I think was probably needed) but it is one hell of a strange buff.
Well, it IS supposed to hard-counter them
Maybe Zerg players will actually build Corruptors other than to transform into Brood Lords.
It's a cute trick, but honestly I'd prefer the hard counter to massed air that was the corsair. I guess having to micro the phoenix to get the most out of it is good for competitive purposes, though.
Why shouldn't phoenix hard counter mutas? They cost the same, Protoss needs a specific tech building to get it, they come out slowly, and do not harrass workers or influence a big fight the way mutas can.
i wish void rays didnt work this way actually (auto attack move) because it prevents a correct 3 void ray charge on an overlord (3 void rays charge up exactly right on an overlord). we might have the same problems with phoenixes targetting down overlords you want to charge up on now, i hope it isnt a problem.
On May 07 2010 06:14 mahnini wrote: this is the most terrible change i've ever seen.
If it is true that you simply right click move away without patrol/attack/hold moving...then this is indeed the worst change this patch. It makes it EASYMODE.
as said, moving shot is not = right click and the unit attack/moves for you while you stay out of range infinitely. Any fucking noob can do that Blizzard.
Blizzard is not going to make moving shot work like it did in SC1. The SC1 method didn't make any logical sense and was a gameplay bug. The SC2 method makes sense. It is made obvious that the unit can do this, which units can do it is well known, and how to do it is also equally obvious.
It's well known that All air units had moving attack type micro in BW. In SC2 only phoenix and void ray can do it. You're telling SC2 way is more obvious and intuitive? Sure.
On May 07 2010 06:14 mahnini wrote: this is the most terrible change i've ever seen.
If it is true that you simply right click move away without patrol/attack/hold moving...then this is indeed the worst change this patch. It makes it EASYMODE.
as said, moving shot is not = right click and the unit attack/moves for you while you stay out of range infinitely. Any fucking noob can do that Blizzard.
Like spamming a-move/move/a-move/move is so hard that only a genius is able to do that.
Alternatingly moving and a-moving in front of and behind your units at least required some skill and especially a good sense of timing for some units. Muta micro even was one of the hardest things to be good at in BW. Doing nothing but right clicking is slightly easier, I dare to say.
It is weird to me that people complain that SC2 is making micro too easy. I think having "easy" micro just means that the better players will be trying to micro effectively in more than one place at once which really ups the ante for a rts game. I loved seeing SC1 players try to duke it out in two places at once, but now with units doing a better job of doing what you want them too Im sure multiple simultaneous battles will happen.
I know it sounds ridiculous but I think BC's should have this ability. If you think about it their guns are mounted on the bottom of the ship so it makes since. It would also add a new element and use to the rarely used Battlecruiser.
As for Pheonixes having this, I think it's a good idea because Protoss simply had no air to air answer against the mutalisk (I'm a zerg player). Yes the micro is simple, but what micro in SC2 isn't simple? Terran was given Thor splash to deal with Mutas so I'm glad Protoss has the Pheonix to deal with mutas.
Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
On May 07 2010 07:05 willeesmalls wrote: Why shouldn't phoenix hard counter mutas? They cost the same, Protoss needs a specific tech building to get it, they come out slowly, and do not harrass workers or influence a big fight the way mutas can.
Pheonix have the gravity ray. Although I have not had my hands on the controls of SC2 even once, it seems obvious that disabling a ground unit and allowing your other Pheonix to pound on it is a pretty big deal. (And does allow you to kill workers, though perhaps not as nimbly.)
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
It is not a bug, however I wouldn't be surprised if the next patch notes would remove it, claiming that a bug allowing phonixes to shoot while moving was fixed.
On May 07 2010 06:14 mahnini wrote: this is the most terrible change i've ever seen.
If it is true that you simply right click move away without patrol/attack/hold moving...then this is indeed the worst change this patch. It makes it EASYMODE.
as said, moving shot is not = right click and the unit attack/moves for you while you stay out of range infinitely. Any fucking noob can do that Blizzard.
Blizzard is not going to make moving shot work like it did in SC1. The SC1 method didn't make any logical sense and was a gameplay bug. The SC2 method makes sense. It is made obvious that the unit can do this, which units can do it is well known, and how to do it is also equally obvious.
That you don't have to press 4 buttons to do it is pretty much like having MBS and rally mining. SC2 is more effective at having the user control the game than SC1 is.
And it requires no timing, no practice and no skill to be good at..
It's not all about requiring more APM, it's also about being able to multitask while performing that micro. Bad player in SC1 would get raped by 2 lings which got into their base while they were busy muta microing effectivelly.Bad player would not be able to properly macro while muta microing effectivelly.
Making it require 1 click instead of 4 clicks means that attention required to properly micro a unit is THAT much smaller making the game easier.
I just played my first game on this patch and it was against a toss. Of course they abused this new buff. He goes 2 gate and gets some zealots so I can't rush then he just masses phoenix and runs around sniping all my overlords/drones causing me to make spores and try to tech to hyrdas. I initially got roaches because I seen all the zealots. Losing all the overlords and making the spores set me back so bad that eventually he just walks in with a huge ground army. I guess the only way to play ZvP from now on is to rush spore colonies and hydras completely disregarding roaches and hoping your lings hold him off if he attacks before your hydras are up.
I also made some queens to try to fend it off but he just flew by sniping down OL's barely taking many hits since he didn't have to stay still to attack. Mutas also will be completely screwed.
On May 07 2010 07:18 prosper wrote: I just played my first game on this patch and it was against a toss. Of course they abused this new buff. He goes 2 gate and gets some zealots so I can't rush then he just masses phoenix and runs around sniping all my overlords/drones causing me to make spores and try to tech to hyrdas. I initially got roaches because I seen all the zealots. Losing all the overlords and making the spores set me back so bad that eventually he just walks in with a huge ground army. I guess the only way to play ZvP from now on is to rush spore colonies and hydras completely disregarding roaches and hoping your lings hold him off if he attacks before your hydras are up.
I also made some queens to try to fend it off but he just flew by sniping down OL's barely taking many hits since he didn't have to stay still to attack. Mutas also will be completely screwed.
Wow, one game and you now know exactly how every ZvP evar is going to shape up? Impressive.
On May 07 2010 07:18 prosper wrote: I just played my first game on this patch and it was against a toss. Of course they abused this new buff. He goes 2 gate and gets some zealots so I can't rush then he just masses phoenix and runs around sniping all my overlords/drones causing me to make spores and try to tech to hyrdas. I initially got roaches because I seen all the zealots. Losing all the overlords and making the spores set me back so bad that eventually he just walks in with a huge ground army. I guess the only way to play ZvP from now on is to rush spore colonies and hydras completely disregarding roaches and hoping your lings hold him off if he attacks before your hydras are up.
I also made some queens to try to fend it off but he just flew by sniping down OL's barely taking many hits since he didn't have to stay still to attack. Mutas also will be completely screwed.
I'm sorry but I think you're just bad. Everything you explained would've happened regardless to this patch. Maybe it was a bit harder for your queens to hit the phoenix, but that is to be debated on your skill as well.
I just played my first game on this patch and it was against a toss. Of course they abused this new buff. He goes 2 gate and gets some zealots so I can't rush then he just masses phoenix and runs around sniping all my overlords/drones causing me to make spores and try to tech to hyrdas. I initially got roaches because I seen all the zealots. Losing all the overlords and making the spores set me back so bad that eventually he just walks in with a huge ground army. I guess the only way to play ZvP from now on is to rush spore colonies and hydras completely disregarding roaches and hoping your lings hold him off if he attacks before your hydras are up.
Sounds like the patch had exactly 0 effect on the outcome of your game... This could have happened to you before the patch as well
On May 07 2010 07:18 prosper wrote: I just played my first game on this patch and it was against a toss. Of course they abused this new buff. He goes 2 gate and gets some zealots so I can't rush then he just masses phoenix and runs around sniping all my overlords/drones causing me to make spores and try to tech to hyrdas. I initially got roaches because I seen all the zealots. Losing all the overlords and making the spores set me back so bad that eventually he just walks in with a huge ground army. I guess the only way to play ZvP from now on is to rush spore colonies and hydras completely disregarding roaches and hoping your lings hold him off if he attacks before your hydras are up.
I also made some queens to try to fend it off but he just flew by sniping down OL's barely taking many hits since he didn't have to stay still to attack. Mutas also will be completely screwed.
And without moving attack would this have been different, your roaches vs phoenixes? I don't see how the moving attack element contributed to your loss; specifically the part where the moving attack was so broken that he was able to micro your defending AA extremely easily, such that it created an imbalanced matchup.
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
So, you want to click A instead of just Right Click, right?
...BECAUSE THAT'S ANY DIFFERENT.
Also, to anybody saying this requires no skill to do, please record a FPVOD of you microing your Phoenixes against enemy mutalisks very efficiently, while macroing at the same time.
On May 07 2010 07:18 prosper wrote: I just played my first game on this patch and it was against a toss. Of course they abused this new buff. He goes 2 gate and gets some zealots so I can't rush then he just masses phoenix and runs around sniping all my overlords/drones causing me to make spores and try to tech to hyrdas. I initially got roaches because I seen all the zealots. Losing all the overlords and making the spores set me back so bad that eventually he just walks in with a huge ground army. I guess the only way to play ZvP from now on is to rush spore colonies and hydras completely disregarding roaches and hoping your lings hold him off if he attacks before your hydras are up.
I also made some queens to try to fend it off but he just flew by sniping down OL's barely taking many hits since he didn't have to stay still to attack. Mutas also will be completely screwed.
I think you just suck..How are overlords easier to kill with moving shot..
I think this is a good thing that a moving shot is not micro intensive, because this game is not for the super dedicated people only and many casual gamers play as well and this unit would be trash for someone who could not do the micro of the moving shot vs someone who does, this isn't a giant issue, this is like people complaining about the the gather units now auto split to the correct resources. if you rly want to have a more challenging time microing, why not use no binds at all
On May 07 2010 06:14 mahnini wrote: this is the most terrible change i've ever seen.
If it is true that you simply right click move away without patrol/attack/hold moving...then this is indeed the worst change this patch. It makes it EASYMODE.
as said, moving shot is not = right click and the unit attack/moves for you while you stay out of range infinitely. Any fucking noob can do that Blizzard.
Blizzard is not going to make moving shot work like it did in SC1. The SC1 method didn't make any logical sense and was a gameplay bug. The SC2 method makes sense. It is made obvious that the unit can do this, which units can do it is well known, and how to do it is also equally obvious.
It's well known that All air units had moving attack type micro in BW. In SC2 only phoenix and void ray can do it. You're telling SC2 way is more obvious and intuitive? Sure.
It is only "well known" by people who know what the right sequence of commands to make it happen are. For everyone else, it makes no sense.
On May 07 2010 06:53 decemvre wrote: Its pretty clear to me now that some blizzard employees actually read these forums so this is basically a thread dedicated to them.
Its pretty obvious that someone read Lalush's thread about the BroodWar "moving-shot". Unfortunately whoever read that post completely missunderstood what we mean by "moving-shot".
I'll try and be brief.
1. Never did we mean to say that we wanted units that could attack targets while moving (after being issued only a simple "MOVE" command).
2. The units in BroodWar that can perform "move-shot" do so as a result of being issued both the attack command and the move command very quickly. This is possible because they have short fireing animations.
As JulyZerg Demonstrates:
Please note that he is using BOTH move and attack very quickly in order to have the mutas move immediately after their fire animation thus they basically never stop and are able to perform what we mean by "moving-shot".
Units that can do this ONLY when "micro-ed propperly: Vulture, Goliath (to a lesser degree), Wraith, Mutalisk, Probes, Drones, (maybe guardians and battlecruisers i really dont know), Archon, Corsair, Scout (the scout is the best possible example of this).
What i mean by "microed properly" is being issued very fast move and attack commands so that they don't completely stop to do their fireing animation !
3. Units in BroodWar that have different attacks when being issued the "Patrol" command and not the Attack command. Patrol is basically used instead of attack while also still having the "move command" constantly being sent to the unit.
Vultures will now demonstrate the awesomeness of "Patrol Micro":
The Vulture is capable of a different kind of micro depending on weather Attack + move or Patrol + Move is issued. The turning animation for the Vulture decreaseas GREATLY when Patrol is being used. Attack + Move is used when chasing after an enemy unit while Patrol + Move is being used when being chansed by an enemy unit !!!
And now the wonder of the Valkyries: - again by using Patrol + Move instead of Attack + Move the Valkyries are able to behave completely differently. If "Attack" is used Valks are unable to move for the duration of their fireing animation.
Now, PLEASE understand that this kind of micro (yes in BroodWar it is a result of an imperfect game-engine, but just look how much fun it can be to do this...) needs to be difficult to achieve, or if not "difficult", both Attack and Move commands MUST be used in order to be demanding on a players multitasking (the ability to manage both micro and macro and other things).
This is what i've got so far, i hope whoever @ blizzard has been reading these forums now understands what we mean when we say moving-shot.
Basically its not that a unit should be able to attack even though its being issued a move command, but that through quick alternation of Move and Attack commands the unit keeps moving during its fireing animation.
Also, it would be WONDERFULL if as shown above there was a slight difference between the way a unit behaves / microes when being issued the Patrol command rather than the Attack command. My suggestion is that you make a couple of units (say 1 or 2 for each race) have a much shorter turning animation when Patrol + Move is being used instead of Attack + Move, very quickly !!!
On May 07 2010 06:14 mahnini wrote: this is the most terrible change i've ever seen.
If it is true that you simply right click move away without patrol/attack/hold moving...then this is indeed the worst change this patch. It makes it EASYMODE.
as said, moving shot is not = right click and the unit attack/moves for you while you stay out of range infinitely. Any fucking noob can do that Blizzard.
Like spamming a-move/move/a-move/move is so hard that only a genius is able to do that.
Alternatingly moving and a-moving in front of and behind your units at least required some skill and especially a good sense of timing for some units. Muta micro even was one of the hardest things to be good at in BW. Doing nothing but right clicking is slightly easier, I dare to say.
I cannot help but feel that people are somewhat missing the point of such 'micro'. Anyone can have Jaedong muta-micro if you explain them the technique and give them some time to practice. It's not difficult to learn at all, and it is irrelevant what keys you have to press to do that.
Being able to micro two packs of muta while teching/expanding/building drones is what only Jaedong can do.
Now, if you show me a game where you control 2 groups of EASYMODE phoenixes perfectly and keep up with your macro, then I will eat my socks.
automatically attack whenever enemy is inside range in rts game is exactly same concept as pull the trigger in fps whenever ur aim is on the enemy head. ofcourse u want to attack but the competition should be to pull the trigger urself. its esport, competition... if u make a game engine that makes all logical decisions for u such as laying perfect storms etc doesnt mean they should go ahead and make it. leave ur fkin new school techniques for the ai instead. mbs cloning autosplit and unlimited selection was enough, top players sit on 130 apm. any easier from here and im not impressed at all by top level play. i hope blizzard fix this because this is the beginning to a whole new level of ai. mothership was a turret and voidray had to be in a special angle but that the actual unit turns around like the phonix. totally ridiculous ;/ nobody enjoys watching top level play if u know that u could play just as good urself. hence why most ppl spent more time watching other play sc1 rather than playing it themselves
ppl who werent familiar with sc1 clearly missing the amazing point of esport
On May 07 2010 07:25 Grimatoma2 wrote: I think this is a good thing that a moving shot is not micro intensive, because this game is not for the super dedicated people only and many casual gamers play as well and this unit would be trash for someone who could not do the micro of the moving shot vs someone who does, this isn't a giant issue, this is like people complaining about the the gather units now auto split to the correct resources. if you rly want to have a more challenging time microing, why not use no binds at all
SC2 aims to be an E-sport. E-sport should require people who want to be really good at it be dedicated. Of course, taking away skill with changes like this won't make it so newbs beat pros automatically. But it doesn't really help either.
If someone is a casual player, they shouldn't care about stuff like this at all, as they will be playing against other casual players and still have lots of fun without being able to perform some of the "hard elitist micro"
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
So, you want to click A instead of just Right Click, right?
...BECAUSE THAT'S ANY DIFFERENT.
Also, to anybody saying this requires no skill to do, please record a FPVOD of you microing your Phoenixes against enemy mutalisks very efficiently, while macroing at the same time.
It is different, stop being so dense.
Pretty sure he wants the phoenixes to have to be moving TOWARDS the phoenixes, and then a-click such that they can move-shoot. (Click towards mutas, then a-click to shoot, simply an a-click would have them decelerate first) As it is right now, they can be moonwalking and shooting, or any other angle. They can be simply passing by and shooting.
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
So, you want to click A instead of just Right Click, right?
...BECAUSE THAT'S ANY DIFFERENT.
Also, to anybody saying this requires no skill to do, please record a FPVOD of you microing your Phoenixes against enemy mutalisks very efficiently, while macroing at the same time.
It is different, stop being so dense.
Pretty sure he wants the phoenixes to have to be moving TOWARDS the phoenixes, and then a-click such that they can move-shoot. (Click towards mutas, then a-click to shoot, simply an a-click would have them decelerate first) As it is right now, they can be moonwalking and shooting, or any other angle. They can be simply passing by and shooting.
The way he words it, I'm pretty sure it's a "I don't want them to auto-target" statement, i.e. he doesn't want them to act like they're on Hold Position (except while moving).
On May 07 2010 07:28 MorroW wrote: automatically attack whenever enemy is inside range in rts game is exactly same concept as pull the trigger in fps whenever ur aim is on the enemy head. ofcourse u want to attack but the competition should be to pull the trigger urself. its esport, competition... if u make a game engine that makes all logical decisions for u such as laying perfect storms etc doesnt mean they should go ahead and make it. leave ur fkin new school techniques for the ai instead. mbs cloning autosplit and unlimited selection was enough, top players sit on 130 apm. any easier from here and im not impressed at all by top level play. i hope blizzard fix this because this is the beginning to a whole new level of ai. mothership was a turret and voidray had to be in a special angle but that the actual unit turns around like the phonix. totally ridiculous ;/ nobody enjoys watching top level play if u know that u could play just as good urself. hence why most ppl spent more time watching other play sc1 rather than playing it themselves
ppl who werent familiar with sc1 clearly missing the amazing point of esport
Excuse me, but don't your marines auto-attack stuff when it comes within range, or do you actually have to manually 'pull the trigger'? ^^
On May 07 2010 07:28 MorroW wrote: automatically attack whenever enemy is inside range in rts game is exactly same concept as pull the trigger in fps whenever ur aim is on the enemy head. ofcourse u want to attack but the competition should be to pull the trigger urself. its esport, competition... if u make a game engine that makes all logical decisions for u such as laying perfect storms etc doesnt mean they should go ahead and make it. leave ur fkin new school techniques for the ai instead. mbs cloning autosplit and unlimited selection was enough, top players sit on 130 apm. any easier from here and im not impressed at all by top level play. i hope blizzard fix this because this is the beginning to a whole new level of ai. mothership was a turret and voidray had to be in a special angle but that the actual unit turns around like the phonix. totally ridiculous ;/ nobody enjoys watching top level play if u know that u could play just as good urself. hence why most ppl spent more time watching other play sc1 rather than playing it themselves
ppl who werent familiar with sc1 clearly missing the amazing point of esport
Excuse me, but don't your marines auto-attack stuff when it comes within range, or do you actually have to manually 'pull the trigger'? ^^
When you attack move, yes. And they don't fire out of their ass when you move them back either.
Do you even understand the changes to the phoenix?
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
So, you want to click A instead of just Right Click, right?
...BECAUSE THAT'S ANY DIFFERENT.
Also, to anybody saying this requires no skill to do, please record a FPVOD of you microing your Phoenixes against enemy mutalisks very efficiently, while macroing at the same time.
It is different, stop being so dense.
Pretty sure he wants the phoenixes to have to be moving TOWARDS the phoenixes, and then a-click such that they can move-shoot. (Click towards mutas, then a-click to shoot, simply an a-click would have them decelerate first) As it is right now, they can be moonwalking and shooting, or any other angle. They can be simply passing by and shooting.
The way he words it, I'm pretty sure it's a "I don't want them to auto-target" statement, i.e. he doesn't want them to act like they're on Hold Position (except while moving).
Yeah you're definitely not worth the time.
Perhaps you should have researched more into the BW lore and community before you came in here with your pretentious and condescending attitude.
Every post of yours belittles something that BW players cherish, and what's more you use hyperbole to assert, what is in your mind just, ridiculous claims.
On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine..
Please stop trying to enforce your totalitarian attitude through hyperbole, belittlement and condescension. I know, without a doubt that you did not come from BW, so perhaps try watching some VODs and realize why it was so great. Because you clearly do not understand BW micro; it wasn't the sequence of commands which allowed people to do extraordinary feats, but the timing and precision it took for 9 mutas to kill 40 marines. This timing and precision is hugely dumbed down with move-attacking phoenixes.
On May 07 2010 07:03 Koltz wrote: It's really not gamebreaking at all in it's current state. Since they don't stack, you have to make sure that one phoenix doesnt fly into the mutas at all times to get picked off easily.
It would be if the phoenixes could perma stack, but I suppose if other units could perma stack too, it'd negate it, and we'd be left with BW style air micro
On May 07 2010 07:28 MorroW wrote: automatically attack whenever enemy is inside range in rts game is exactly same concept as pull the trigger in fps whenever ur aim is on the enemy head. ofcourse u want to attack but the competition should be to pull the trigger urself. its esport, competition... if u make a game engine that makes all logical decisions for u such as laying perfect storms etc doesnt mean they should go ahead and make it. leave ur fkin new school techniques for the ai instead. mbs cloning autosplit and unlimited selection was enough, top players sit on 130 apm. any easier from here and im not impressed at all by top level play. i hope blizzard fix this because this is the beginning to a whole new level of ai. mothership was a turret and voidray had to be in a special angle but that the actual unit turns around like the phonix. totally ridiculous ;/ nobody enjoys watching top level play if u know that u could play just as good urself. hence why most ppl spent more time watching other play sc1 rather than playing it themselves
ppl who werent familiar with sc1 clearly missing the amazing point of esport
Excuse me, but don't your marines auto-attack stuff when it comes within range, or do you actually have to manually 'pull the trigger'? ^^
On May 07 2010 07:36 floor exercise wrote: When you attack move, yes. And they don't fire out of their ass when you move them back either. Do you even understand the changes to the phoenix?
What about when they just chill doing nothing? Shouldn't they ignore incoming enemies until you explicitly attack-move?
On May 07 2010 07:36 floor exercise wrote: When you attack move, yes. And they don't fire out of their ass when you move them back either. Do you even understand the changes to the phoenix?
What about when they just chill doing nothing? Shouldn't they ignore incoming enemies until you explicitly attack-move?
On May 07 2010 07:36 floor exercise wrote: When you attack move, yes. And they don't fire out of their ass when you move them back either. Do you even understand the changes to the phoenix?
What about when they just chill doing nothing? Shouldn't they ignore incoming enemies until you explicitly attack-move?
explain to me how this has anything to do with the phoenix changes.
Actually, just explain the phoenix changes to me, because I'm pretty sure you don't even know what they are.
On May 07 2010 06:53 decemvre wrote: Its pretty clear to me now that some blizzard employees actually read these forums so this is basically a thread dedicated to them. Its pretty obvious that someone read Lalush's thread about the BroodWar "moving-shot". Unfortunately whoever read that post completely missunderstood what we mean by "moving-shot".
I'll try and be brief.
1. Never did we mean to say that we wanted units that could attack targets while moving (after being issued only a simple "MOVE" command).
2. The units in BroodWar that can perform "move-shot" do so as a result of being issued both the attack command and the move command very quickly. This is possible because they have short fireing animations.
Please note that he is using BOTH move and attack very quickly in order to have the mutas move immediately after their fire animation thus they basically never stop and are able to perform what we mean by "moving-shot".
Units that can do this ONLY when "micro-ed propperly: Vulture, Goliath (to a lesser degree), Wraith, Mutalisk, Probes, Drones, (maybe guardians and battlecruisers i really dont know), Archon, Corsair, Scout (the scout is the best possible example of this).
What i mean by "microed properly" is being issued very fast move and attack commands so that they don't completely stop to do their fireing animation !
3. Units in BroodWar that have different attacks when being issued the "Patrol" command and not the Attack command. Patrol is basically used instead of attack while also still having the "move command" constantly being sent to the unit.
Vultures will now demonstrate the awesomeness of "Patrol Micro":
The Vulture is capable of a different kind of micro depending on weather Attack + move or Patrol + Move is issued. The turning animation for the Vulture decreaseas GREATLY when Patrol is being used. Attack + Move is used when chasing after an enemy unit while Patrol + Move is being used when being chansed by an enemy unit !!!
And now the wonder of the Valkyries: - again by using Patrol + Move instead of Attack + Move the Valkyries are able to behave completely differently. If "Attack" is used Valks are unable to move for the duration of their fireing animation.
Now, PLEASE understand that this kind of micro (yes in BroodWar it is a result of an imperfect game-engine, but just look how much fun it can be to do this...) needs to be difficult to achieve, or if not "difficult", both Attack and Move commands MUST be used in order to be demanding on a players multitasking (the ability to manage both micro and macro and other things).
This is what i've got so far, i hope whoever @ blizzard has been reading these forums now understands what we mean when we say moving-shot.
Basically its not that a unit should be able to attack even though its being issued a move command, but that through quick alternation of Move and Attack commands the unit keeps moving during its fireing animation.
Also, it would be WONDERFULL if as shown above there was a slight difference between the way a unit behaves / microes when being issued the Patrol command rather than the Attack command. My suggestion is that you make a couple of units (say 1 or 2 for each race) have a much shorter turning animation when Patrol + Move is being used instead of Attack + Move, very quickly !!!
I think Blizzard understands this stuff, they just don't want to do it. Certainly incompetence could be the culprit but I don't think it's right to assume that Blizzard just doesn't get it.
Having the attack/patrol move animation cancel is very unintuitive to a new player. It's like bunny hopping (I hope this doesn't bring up the bunny hopping debate) in FPS, sure it adds a skill to be learned but it's kind of weird. Some games don't have bunny hopping and I don't think a game necessarily needs to have bunny hopping to be competitive.
Maybe SC2 does need this, but that is a different argument than the one here.
The thread on TL obviously meant animation cancelling. That is to say, to change an air unit from having a slow initial attack and fast attack cooldown, to having a fast initial attack and a slow attack cooldown, that way, orbwalking/kiting/animation cancelling would be needed to maximise the unit's attack.
That is to say, by the following table where ==== is pre-attack, + is attack and ------ is the attack cooldown,
from the first instance ========== + ------------------ to the second instance === + -----------------------------
Therefore, if you micro the second isntance, the effect you would get is
=== + === + === + === +, with no attack cooldown, given you put the micro into it...
I can't believe Blizzard would misinterpret such a point, and I don't know why they would not want to put such a mechanism in a Blizzard game - it's not just present in SC2, it's present in DOTA and WC3 to a very high extent. Microing your Pmoon or enchantress in DOTA and your DH in WC3 means that the damage output could be increased by up to 50%, GIVEN you put the effort into it. It's present in Coutner-strike -> quick switching your AWP is a form of animation cancelling that allows you to fire faster (well it was, til 1.6).
This new "MOVING SHOT" (Thx to the misnomer by the initial postmaker, I feel to an extent) mechanism is more similar to CNC([3], at least) tanks.. where units can shoot while moving, something I hate about CNC. Greater effective animation cancelling needs to be in the game to award the user for more micro.
On May 07 2010 07:36 floor exercise wrote: When you attack move, yes. And they don't fire out of their ass when you move them back either. Do you even understand the changes to the phoenix?
What about when they just chill doing nothing? Shouldn't they ignore incoming enemies until you explicitly attack-move?
You are just completely missing the point. The argument here is the difficulty of the micro. The update itself is not what people initially wanted, which was the ability to CANCEL ANIMATION into a move command. This required strict timing and feel for the attack recharge and animation cancel timing (see Muta Micro). This phoenix bug now is jus moving around in circles, all you have to do play keep away, thats IT. Also, the distinguishing aspect of ATTACK MOVE as opposed to MOVE is something so basic in RTS that if you dont understand it, quit.
"Blizzard has made the game too bug free, there's no glitches we can abuse to "make micro"
yes?
I don't think blizzard is aiming for that kind of micro at the moment
Its easy to "let it stay" when already implemented, but it makes no sense from a game designing point of view to make something this unintuitive by purpose
On May 07 2010 07:42 LaLuSh wrote: Your analogy failed there. Sorry man.
It's not an analogy, it's a direct response to MorroW's statement about 'not pulling the trigger'. When you tell marines to stop, you don't explicitly order them to 'stop' and then 'shoot at anything that approaches', but they still shoot automatically. They can be somewhere where you are not even looking, but still shoot automatically, without you even knowing.
My argument is that you cannot avoid automation in an RTS, hence automation by itself is not necessarily evil. I guess I just want people to see how this plays out in the context of a particular unit, and not just scream 'omg automation noobs will suddenly become so good now'.
On May 07 2010 07:42 LaLuSh wrote: Your analogy failed there. Sorry man.
It's not an analogy, it's a direct response to MorroW's statement about 'not pulling the trigger'. When you tell marines to stop, you don't explicitly order them to 'stop' and then 'shoot at anything that approaches', but they still shoot automatically. They can be somewhere where you are not even looking, but still shoot automatically, without you even knowing.
My argument is that you cannot avoid automation in an RTS, hence automation by itself is not necessarily evil. I guess I just want people to see how this plays out in the context of a particular unit, and not just scream 'omg automation noobs will suddenly become so good now'.
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but this example is wrong, Marines can't move while they are attacking; even though you can move them during cooldown it's close but not the same.
The way Phoenixes can shoot shown in that video someone posted looks a lot easier even if it's not (at least that much) simply because they move backwards while in BW you have no units moving backwards, you have to turn at certain degress if you want to make your units shoot without making them slow down.
On May 07 2010 07:42 LaLuSh wrote: Your analogy failed there. Sorry man.
It's not an analogy, it's a direct response to MorroW's statement about 'not pulling the trigger'. When you tell marines to stop, you don't explicitly order them to 'stop' and then 'shoot at anything that approaches', but they still shoot automatically. They can be somewhere where you are not even looking, but still shoot automatically, without you even knowing.
My argument is that you cannot avoid automation in an RTS, hence automation by itself is not necessarily evil. I guess I just want people to see how this plays out in the context of a particular unit, and not just scream 'omg automation noobs will suddenly become so good now'.
I believe you misunderstood.
What you're saying is that units automatically acquire targets while idle which is very okay for everyone.
What Morrow is saying is that units automatically ATTACK units while MOVING by just... well.. MOVING which very bad for everyone.
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
So, you want to click A instead of just Right Click, right?
...BECAUSE THAT'S ANY DIFFERENT.
Also, to anybody saying this requires no skill to do, please record a FPVOD of you microing your Phoenixes against enemy mutalisks very efficiently, while macroing at the same time.
It is different, stop being so dense.
Pretty sure he wants the phoenixes to have to be moving TOWARDS the phoenixes, and then a-click such that they can move-shoot. (Click towards mutas, then a-click to shoot, simply an a-click would have them decelerate first) As it is right now, they can be moonwalking and shooting, or any other angle. They can be simply passing by and shooting.
The way he words it, I'm pretty sure it's a "I don't want them to auto-target" statement, i.e. he doesn't want them to act like they're on Hold Position (except while moving).
Yeah you're definitely not worth the time.
Perhaps you should have researched more into the BW lore and community before you came in here with your pretentious and condescending attitude.
Every post of yours belittles something that BW players cherish, and what's more you use hyperbole to assert, what is in your mind just, ridiculous claims.
On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine..
Please stop trying to enforce your totalitarian attitude through hyperbole, belittlement and condescension. I know, without a doubt that you did not come from BW, so perhaps try watching some VODs and realize why it was so great. Because you clearly do not understand BW micro; it wasn't the sequence of commands which allowed people to do extraordinary feats, but the timing and precision it took for 9 mutas to kill 40 marines. This timing and precision is hugely dumbed down with move-attacking phoenixes.
On May 07 2010 07:03 Koltz wrote: It's really not gamebreaking at all in it's current state. Since they don't stack, you have to make sure that one phoenix doesnt fly into the mutas at all times to get picked off easily.
It would be if the phoenixes could perma stack, but I suppose if other units could perma stack too, it'd negate it, and we'd be left with BW style air micro
Wait... that's an idea!
Don't claim im biased.
I happen to watch SC1 all the time, thank you.
Please quote every single one of my posts, and point out how it belittles something that BW players cherish. I belittle the fact that people seem to think change cannot ever bring about good in a video game, especially when they loved it so much. (e.g. Imagine SC2 with SC1 mechanics. That'd be a hell of imbalance)
The problem with Phoenixes is that they were never TRULY good at countering Mutas as well as Blizzard claimed they did. SC2 is a game of hard counters - Soft-Counters mean relatively little compared to Hard-Counters. A hard-counter shouldn't require ridiculous micro in the current state of the game; that is, if a unit is meant to counter something so heavily, it shouldn't be "Oh, only if you do this specific sequence of commands every time you see the thing it's supposed to counter easily; and hope they don't micro themselves, because then you're screwed."
Also, the 9 Muta vs 40 Marines is akin to having 9 Phoenixes fight 40 Marines. You need ridiculous timing and precision, or you're going to lose horribly. Just because it requires less key presses doesn't mean it requires any less precision.
Try interpreting the things I post. It might help.
On May 07 2010 06:07 CheAse wrote: i just played a tvz with hellions... I could l just harass the roaches on the ramp until they died to go harass probes
that makes absolutely no sense
haha ya tvz has no phoenixes, in fact phoenixes aren't even mentioned here, I think died should be decided, and this has nothing to do with anything else being discussed
On a side note, I found the phoenix change to be nice, but since my primary race is protoss I could be a bit biased. However, maybe if they could only turn 90 degrees, this would be a nice compromise...or maybe if required micro like in Brood War, that would also be nice...
Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out?
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
So, you want to click A instead of just Right Click, right?
...BECAUSE THAT'S ANY DIFFERENT.
Also, to anybody saying this requires no skill to do, please record a FPVOD of you microing your Phoenixes against enemy mutalisks very efficiently, while macroing at the same time.
It is different, stop being so dense.
Pretty sure he wants the phoenixes to have to be moving TOWARDS the phoenixes, and then a-click such that they can move-shoot. (Click towards mutas, then a-click to shoot, simply an a-click would have them decelerate first) As it is right now, they can be moonwalking and shooting, or any other angle. They can be simply passing by and shooting.
The way he words it, I'm pretty sure it's a "I don't want them to auto-target" statement, i.e. he doesn't want them to act like they're on Hold Position (except while moving).
Yeah you're definitely not worth the time.
Perhaps you should have researched more into the BW lore and community before you came in here with your pretentious and condescending attitude.
Every post of yours belittles something that BW players cherish, and what's more you use hyperbole to assert, what is in your mind just, ridiculous claims.
On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine..
Please stop trying to enforce your totalitarian attitude through hyperbole, belittlement and condescension. I know, without a doubt that you did not come from BW, so perhaps try watching some VODs and realize why it was so great. Because you clearly do not understand BW micro; it wasn't the sequence of commands which allowed people to do extraordinary feats, but the timing and precision it took for 9 mutas to kill 40 marines. This timing and precision is hugely dumbed down with move-attacking phoenixes.
On May 07 2010 07:03 Koltz wrote: It's really not gamebreaking at all in it's current state. Since they don't stack, you have to make sure that one phoenix doesnt fly into the mutas at all times to get picked off easily.
It would be if the phoenixes could perma stack, but I suppose if other units could perma stack too, it'd negate it, and we'd be left with BW style air micro
Wait... that's an idea!
Don't claim im biased.
I happen to watch SC1 all the time, thank you.
Please quote every single one of my posts, and point out how it belittles something that BW players cherish. I belittle the fact that people seem to think change cannot ever bring about good in a video game, especially when they loved it so much. (e.g. Imagine SC2 with SC1 mechanics. That'd be a hell of imbalance)
The problem with Phoenixes is that they were never TRULY good at countering Mutas as well as Blizzard claimed they did. SC2 is a game of hard counters - Soft-Counters mean relatively little compared to Hard-Counters. A hard-counter shouldn't require ridiculous micro in the current state of the game; that is, if a unit is meant to counter something so heavily, it shouldn't be "Oh, only if you do this specific sequence of commands every time you see the thing it's supposed to counter easily; and hope they don't micro themselves, because then you're screwed."
Also, the 9 Muta vs 40 Marines is akin to having 9 Phoenixes fight 40 Marines. You need ridiculous timing and precision, or you're going to lose horribly. Just because it requires less key presses doesn't mean it requires any less precision.
Try interpreting the things I post. It might help.
It looks as if you can't catch them now it would be different if they had to make a turn to attack and I hope constant move isn't the only command required to make this happen.
edit: well I guess (other than doing what Nazgul wrote about and making Corruptors) forcing Zerg to split his mutas to cut off phoenixes escape route is a solution to that but that's also only if they can attack-move too...
On May 07 2010 07:59 beetlelisk wrote: I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but this example is wrong, Marines can't move while they are attacking; even though you can move them during cooldown it's close but not the same.
The way Phoenixes can shoot shown in that video someone posted looks a lot easier even if it's not (at least that much) simply because they move backwards while in BW you have no units moving backwards, you have to turn at certain degress if you want to make your units shoot without making them slow down.
That is not what I meant. I reacted to people complaining that phoenixes auto-target and auto-attack even though you didn't order them to attack, you just told them to move, and that this somehow insults their feeling of being in control. I argued that idle units in BW will auto-target and auto-attack, which is about the same level of automation and everyone is fine with that.
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out?
I have an idea. Lock the SC2 forums one whole day each time a patch is released so people can actually play the game first.
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
So, you want to click A instead of just Right Click, right?
...BECAUSE THAT'S ANY DIFFERENT.
Also, to anybody saying this requires no skill to do, please record a FPVOD of you microing your Phoenixes against enemy mutalisks very efficiently, while macroing at the same time.
It is different, stop being so dense.
Pretty sure he wants the phoenixes to have to be moving TOWARDS the phoenixes, and then a-click such that they can move-shoot. (Click towards mutas, then a-click to shoot, simply an a-click would have them decelerate first) As it is right now, they can be moonwalking and shooting, or any other angle. They can be simply passing by and shooting.
The way he words it, I'm pretty sure it's a "I don't want them to auto-target" statement, i.e. he doesn't want them to act like they're on Hold Position (except while moving).
Yeah you're definitely not worth the time.
Perhaps you should have researched more into the BW lore and community before you came in here with your pretentious and condescending attitude.
Every post of yours belittles something that BW players cherish, and what's more you use hyperbole to assert, what is in your mind just, ridiculous claims.
On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine..
Please stop trying to enforce your totalitarian attitude through hyperbole, belittlement and condescension. I know, without a doubt that you did not come from BW, so perhaps try watching some VODs and realize why it was so great. Because you clearly do not understand BW micro; it wasn't the sequence of commands which allowed people to do extraordinary feats, but the timing and precision it took for 9 mutas to kill 40 marines. This timing and precision is hugely dumbed down with move-attacking phoenixes.
On May 07 2010 07:03 Koltz wrote: It's really not gamebreaking at all in it's current state. Since they don't stack, you have to make sure that one phoenix doesnt fly into the mutas at all times to get picked off easily.
It would be if the phoenixes could perma stack, but I suppose if other units could perma stack too, it'd negate it, and we'd be left with BW style air micro
Wait... that's an idea!
Don't claim im biased.
I happen to watch SC1 all the time, thank you.
Please quote every single one of my posts, and point out how it belittles something that BW players cherish. I belittle the fact that people seem to think change cannot ever bring about good in a video game, especially when they loved it so much. (e.g. Imagine SC2 with SC1 mechanics. That'd be a hell of imbalance)
The problem with Phoenixes is that they were never TRULY good at countering Mutas as well as Blizzard claimed they did. SC2 is a game of hard counters - Soft-Counters mean relatively little compared to Hard-Counters. A hard-counter shouldn't require ridiculous micro in the current state of the game; that is, if a unit is meant to counter something so heavily, it shouldn't be "Oh, only if you do this specific sequence of commands every time you see the thing it's supposed to counter easily; and hope they don't micro themselves, because then you're screwed."
Also, the 9 Muta vs 40 Marines is akin to having 9 Phoenixes fight 40 Marines. You need ridiculous timing and precision, or you're going to lose horribly. Just because it requires less key presses doesn't mean it requires any less precision.
Try interpreting the things I post. It might help.
Okay you watch it, but don't act like you play it.
This is identified by the following:
Also, the 9 Muta vs 40 Marines is akin to having 9 Phoenixes fight 40 Marines. You need ridiculous timing and precision, or you're going to lose horribly. Just because it requires less key presses doesn't mean it requires any less precision.
Timing the move, hold position (or a-move), and then move again individually, three times, is akin to moving in and out? It does require micro, but it's severely dumbed down. Repeatedly you talk as if the old system was bad, lackluster, and buggy, but clearly you do not understand it.
If you understood the motive of my post, it was not even about the mechanics, it was about the attitude that you bring to TL. Quit it. I've already shown that I like the new mechanic, don't argue semantics with me.
Bottom line, get your point across the right way, without hyperbole, belittlement, condescension. I rather not waste my time coming up with examples of these, as they are littered throughout this post, LaLush's micro post, as well as the other patch post.
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out?
what this man said is right, in all respects... except that phoenix's previous advantage they had vs corruptors is compounded now: phoenixes still move way faster than corruptors and so because phoenixes will beat corruptors if they outnumber them at all (remember theyve the same cost), if corruptors are outnumbered, trying to run isn't a great option, and this is worse now due to their auto-shoot while moving. whereas if corruptors are even or have larger numbers, phoenixes can always run away. they get to dictate when the fights happen, that's why phoenixes are still better than corruptors.
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out?
I'm just wondering how you're presently supposed to ZvP against a P who gets just enough defense/sentries to wall and go air. Apparently Blizzard thinks we are supposed to counter void rays with infestor NP (lol, let's tally up the cost/time investments someone) and investing into corruptors who are AtA only just to not get raped by OL hunting and gravbeams sounds like a totally winning plan to me, considering phoenixes double up as AtG.
Basically all I'm seeing is fast hydra den... zzz.
People: Fuck you Blizzard, phoenix is too clumsy to micro, we want crisper control.
Blizzard: Hang on, we're trying some changes, how about this new fun stuff..?
People: Fuck you Blizzard, we want to be able to control units EXACTLY as in BW, and also patrol command MUST glitch in the EXACT same way as in BW! Also units MUST NEVER be able to auto-shoot while moving: they didn't in BW and hence it is a sacrilege to even think of allowing that!
I'm done with this discussion; people just refuse to think out of BW box and accept anything new.
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out?
I guess the question remains, has muta control changed at all with this patch? I've heard several conflicting claims.
On May 07 2010 07:59 beetlelisk wrote: I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but this example is wrong, Marines can't move while they are attacking; even though you can move them during cooldown it's close but not the same.
The way Phoenixes can shoot shown in that video someone posted looks a lot easier even if it's not (at least that much) simply because they move backwards while in BW you have no units moving backwards, you have to turn at certain degress if you want to make your units shoot without making them slow down.
That is not what I meant. I reacted to people complaining that phoenixes auto-target and auto-attack even though you didn't order them to attack, you just told them to move, and that this somehow insults their feeling of being in control. I argued that idle units in BW will auto-target and auto-attack, which is about the same level of automation and everyone is fine with that.
It's not the same level of automation. Phoenix hovering over something and starting to attack but still being still is the same as a Marine that auto acquires a target. Phoenix that just moves and attacks with no difference whether you order it to attack or not is not the same and I hope it's not the case here at all. (example: Cobras killing Thor in the Terran demo from about 2 years ago come to my mind)
You can live with it but that's still worse than forcing Phoenixes to turn to attack.
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out?
I have an idea. Lock the SC2 forums one whole day each time a patch is released so people can actually play the game first.
well most ppl on tl r smart enough to be able to discuss things before they test it. sure majority r making stupid assumptions like phonix will rule the world but i think the overall discussion is a good preparation before we can play it
i just hate that esport is dying and that ppl actually think games like sc2 require alot of skills, u clearly havent played sc1 then. that was REAL e-sport, sc2 is no more than dota or wow in my eyes if they keep doing things like this. im not talking about balance, im talking about brain activity and the speed of ur hands. sc2 is just turning out to be this hollow brainless game that anyone can play. there wont be any flash or jaedong godlike ppl to the newbest ppl who cant split because in sc2 the level difference wont be big cause its so easy and so easily mastered in theory
were in beta stage and already seeing near perfect micro macro and decision making, its not impressive if its easy and thats whats killing me ;p
On May 07 2010 08:18 Lollersauce wrote: I'm just wondering how you're presently supposed to ZvP against a P who gets just enough defense/sentries to wall and go air. Apparently Blizzard thinks we are supposed to counter void rays with infestor NP (lol, let's tally up the cost/time investments someone) and investing into corruptors who are AtA only just to not get raped by OL hunting and gravbeams sounds like a totally winning plan to me, considering phoenixes double up as AtG.
Basically all I'm seeing is fast hydra den... zzz.
Huh? The same way you did before.. multiple queens while getting lair then hydra? Mass Phoenix from a single base will be the same as it was.
i just hate that esport is dying and that ppl actually think games like sc2 require alot of skills, u clearly havent played sc1 then. that was REAL e-sport, sc2 is no more than dota or wow in my eyes if they keep doing things like this. im not talking about balance, im talking about brain activity and the speed of ur hands. sc2 is just turning out to be this hollow brainless game that anyone can play. there wont be any flash or jaedong godlike ppl to the newbest ppl who cant split because in sc2 the level difference wont be big cause its so easy and so easily mastered in theory
You're not describing e-sports nor the future of it. You're describing a single game; the best game in RTS history and one that will never be equaled. I think you need to accept that fact first before you can see that SC2 is actually the second best RTS ever made and will carry e-sports further than SC:BW ever has. If anything below SC:BW is hollow then yes SC2 is too.
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out?
I think people were expecting it to be exactly like LaLuSh suggested in his thread. Blizzard isn't fucking retarded guys, let them develop the game the way they want too. They won't ruin it, so lets just all calm down.
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out?
Well said.
Honestly I think that everyone freaks out any time something is made to be different than it was in BW. This change is a buff that requires careful micro to take advantage of...1 extra range on the phoenix vs. mutas is not a big margin for error. It was a foregone conclusion based on Blizzard's own recent comments that some sort of buff to phoenixes was coming. Why isn't everyone overjoyed that they took a creative approach rather than just giving them some idiot-proof +damage or +armor?
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
So, you want to click A instead of just Right Click, right?
...BECAUSE THAT'S ANY DIFFERENT.
Also, to anybody saying this requires no skill to do, please record a FPVOD of you microing your Phoenixes against enemy mutalisks very efficiently, while macroing at the same time.
It is different, stop being so dense.
Pretty sure he wants the phoenixes to have to be moving TOWARDS the phoenixes, and then a-click such that they can move-shoot. (Click towards mutas, then a-click to shoot, simply an a-click would have them decelerate first) As it is right now, they can be moonwalking and shooting, or any other angle. They can be simply passing by and shooting.
The way he words it, I'm pretty sure it's a "I don't want them to auto-target" statement, i.e. he doesn't want them to act like they're on Hold Position (except while moving).
Yeah you're definitely not worth the time.
Perhaps you should have researched more into the BW lore and community before you came in here with your pretentious and condescending attitude.
Every post of yours belittles something that BW players cherish, and what's more you use hyperbole to assert, what is in your mind just, ridiculous claims.
On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine..
Please stop trying to enforce your totalitarian attitude through hyperbole, belittlement and condescension. I know, without a doubt that you did not come from BW, so perhaps try watching some VODs and realize why it was so great. Because you clearly do not understand BW micro; it wasn't the sequence of commands which allowed people to do extraordinary feats, but the timing and precision it took for 9 mutas to kill 40 marines. This timing and precision is hugely dumbed down with move-attacking phoenixes.
On May 07 2010 07:03 Koltz wrote: It's really not gamebreaking at all in it's current state. Since they don't stack, you have to make sure that one phoenix doesnt fly into the mutas at all times to get picked off easily.
It would be if the phoenixes could perma stack, but I suppose if other units could perma stack too, it'd negate it, and we'd be left with BW style air micro
Wait... that's an idea!
Don't claim im biased.
I happen to watch SC1 all the time, thank you.
Please quote every single one of my posts, and point out how it belittles something that BW players cherish. I belittle the fact that people seem to think change cannot ever bring about good in a video game, especially when they loved it so much. (e.g. Imagine SC2 with SC1 mechanics. That'd be a hell of imbalance)
The problem with Phoenixes is that they were never TRULY good at countering Mutas as well as Blizzard claimed they did. SC2 is a game of hard counters - Soft-Counters mean relatively little compared to Hard-Counters. A hard-counter shouldn't require ridiculous micro in the current state of the game; that is, if a unit is meant to counter something so heavily, it shouldn't be "Oh, only if you do this specific sequence of commands every time you see the thing it's supposed to counter easily; and hope they don't micro themselves, because then you're screwed."
Also, the 9 Muta vs 40 Marines is akin to having 9 Phoenixes fight 40 Marines. You need ridiculous timing and precision, or you're going to lose horribly. Just because it requires less key presses doesn't mean it requires any less precision.
Try interpreting the things I post. It might help.
Okay you watch it, but don't act like you play it.
This is identified by the following:
Also, the 9 Muta vs 40 Marines is akin to having 9 Phoenixes fight 40 Marines. You need ridiculous timing and precision, or you're going to lose horribly. Just because it requires less key presses doesn't mean it requires any less precision.
Timing the move, hold position (or a-move), and then move again individually, three times, is akin to moving in and out? It does require micro, but it's severely dumbed down. Repeatedly you talk as if the old system was bad, lackluster, and buggy, but clearly you do not understand it.
If you understood the motive of my post, it was not even about the mechanics, it was about the attitude that you bring to TL. Quit it. I've already shown that I like the new mechanic, don't argue semantics with me.
Bottom line, get your point across the right way, without hyperbole, belittlement, condescension. I rather not waste my time coming up with examples of these, as they are littered throughout this post, LaLush's micro post, as well as the other patch post.
I don't see how controlling 9 Mutas is difficult at all, seeing as how you can keep them in the same hotkey. Please explain that part. I will admit that SC2 is easier when it gets to larger unit selections, but that's not a flaw in the micro itself as it is the very existence of unlimited unit selection.
Oh, and don't even try to say the old system wasn't buggy, lackluster, and bad (well, bad is subjective, but if you're speaking in terms of efficiency, then it is most likely bad compared to SC2 - or anything more recent). The only reason all of these neat tactics exist are because of the weak engine being prone to manipulation.
I call liez. I try and prove that change is not always bad, not that this change is necessarily good. People seem to bash SC2 simply for not having SC1's mechanics, without supporting them. When asked for a reason why, they simply say "SC1 has more micro." And? Explain how that is necessarily good, how SC2 is lacking micro, etc.
I personally think the "STFU, you have a low post count, you suck, go to hell," blatantly biased attitude that is portrayed by others is far worse than my own. And, might I add, this "attitude" that you see is merely response to what I deem is unjust. QQ'ing about SC2 because it doesn't have a certain aspect is simply wrong - or rather, to shove it down other people's throats.
The way I see it, you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
If you micro the phoenixes well, they counter mutas. If you don't micro it, it doesn't. That is what people wanted in SC2. Go out and try it before you complain. This is a good change. It requires micro.
On May 07 2010 08:18 Lollersauce wrote: I'm just wondering how you're presently supposed to ZvP against a P who gets just enough defense/sentries to wall and go air. Apparently Blizzard thinks we are supposed to counter void rays with infestor NP (lol, let's tally up the cost/time investments someone) and investing into corruptors who are AtA only just to not get raped by OL hunting and gravbeams sounds like a totally winning plan to me, considering phoenixes double up as AtG.
Basically all I'm seeing is fast hydra den... zzz.
Huh? The same way you did before.. multiple queens while getting lair then hydra? Mass Phoenix from a single base will be the same as it was.
Well that's basically one less option (mutas) against a toss even just getting his cy core. Considering how weak our options are on ground already thanks to FF everywhere, zerg is just basically pigeonholed into even fewer choices. Not like there was many to begin with. I guess the point is, did toss really need a counter to mutas with blinking stalkers and sentries at t1? Even void rays weren't bad.
Would be nice to have more than 2 reasonable options (burrowed roaches or hydras) in this MU.
i'd say this is a change in the wrong direction in terms of "evolution of micro." Right click? Easy. Of course we thought mbs/automining would WTFRAPE the game, and that was not so bad.,
still would rather it be implemented to be as difficult as brood war. It's not fun when everyone and their mother can micro like a pro. Sort of takes away spectator value. Pretty much copy paste what morrow said, you'll be watching a replay and thinking, "yah, I can do that, it's easy as fuck."
On May 07 2010 08:19 Random() wrote: People: Fuck you Blizzard, phoenix is too clumsy to micro, we want crisper control.
Blizzard: Hang on, we're trying some changes, how about this new fun stuff..?
People: Fuck you Blizzard, we want to be able to control units EXACTLY as in BW, and also patrol command MUST glitch in the EXACT same way as in BW! Also units MUST NEVER be able to auto-shoot while moving: they didn't in BW and hence it is a sacrilege to even think of allowing that!
I'm done with this discussion; people just refuse to think out of BW box and accept anything new.
+Making Muta micro possible (edit: and I still don't know if it is) only by using Patrol key and not Attack and Hold anymore +removing auto-split by which I mean each flyer from a stacked group attacking different target when ordered to Hold during moving +making stacking very much harder if it's possible only when spamming move near flyers
^--- those are ok with me and would be a key example of transitioning at least part of skill from macro to micro, those would mean it's still balanced with no 12 units limit and macro being easier
But if they are going to make units shoot when they are just moving (and I don't believe this is happening in this video) then this is not only bizzare but imbalanced and takes away a lot from the game. You wouldn't even see this that much because player that can't do this would simply avoid fights or even entire tech.
The fact that moving shot worked the way it did in SC1 was unintentional, consider phoenix being able to attack while moving an improvement, just like unlimited unit selection, automine, etc... you may not like it, you may think it takes less skill, but this isn't 1998. Blizzard isn't going to try to force the game to be 'hard' by making the interface clunky (which, sadly, was one of the biggest reasons BW was such a hard game to play)
I think people keep on forgetting that Starcraft 2 involves more than just microing pheonixes, so this patch will in no way completely destroy the mechanics of the game...
On May 07 2010 08:18 Lollersauce wrote: I'm just wondering how you're presently supposed to ZvP against a P who gets just enough defense/sentries to wall and go air. Apparently Blizzard thinks we are supposed to counter void rays with infestor NP (lol, let's tally up the cost/time investments someone) and investing into corruptors who are AtA only just to not get raped by OL hunting and gravbeams sounds like a totally winning plan to me, considering phoenixes double up as AtG.
Basically all I'm seeing is fast hydra den... zzz.
Huh? The same way you did before.. multiple queens while getting lair then hydra? Mass Phoenix from a single base will be the same as it was.
Well that's basically one less option (mutas) against a toss even just getting his cy core. Considering how weak our options are on ground already thanks to FF everywhere, zerg is just basically pigeonholed into even fewer choices. Not like there was many to begin with. I guess the point is, did toss really need a counter to mutas with blinking stalkers and sentries at t1? Even void rays weren't bad.
Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do? All of the other races don't rely on a single unit, and this one even comes from the same tech tree. Really, just adjust from going mass muta to muta-muta-muta-corruptor-muta-muta-muta-corruptor, or something.
Oh, and Void Rays are very expensive, require micro, and are inefficient against large numbers ^_^
Ok, forgive my noobery but I don't think the original video was a very.... good... representation of phoenix vs mutas, specifically because the mutalisks were clearly not micro'd, AT ALL, and they still managed to land a few shots against the phoenix.
Also, very slightly off topic, I am slightly concerned that if micro becomes a massive part of air vs. air, then it might become damn near impossible to keep spawning larva... I keep watching that video of the SC1 mutas vs. archon and think, omg, if I needed to saturate my 3 hatcheries at that point....
Blizzard added micro. They have shown that they are willing to add micro so all is well. People sholdn't stop complaining, because Blizzard wants constructive feedback, but think about this change for a moment. Blizzard games always follow the mantra of "easy to learn but difficult to master" and this new phoenix micro fits the bill perfectly. Any noob can see that they can move around their phoenixes to avoid mutas, but only the pros will be able to mico them while macroing and doing other stuff at the same time. And unlike the boring target fire micro this actually looks cool, so it's a win-win change, it takes the game in the right direction and it shows that Blizzard is willing to move in the right direction. This micro isn't really that easy either, you need to always keep your phoenixes out of the muta range and your opponent can do stuff like spiltting his muta army to catch your phoenixes. This is a good change, now play around with it a little before instantly rejecting it.
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote:I personally think the "STFU, you have a low post count, you suck, go to hell," blatantly biased attitude that is portrayed by others is far worse than my own. And, might I add, this "attitude" that you see is merely response to what I deem is unjust. QQ'ing about SC2 because it doesn't have a certain aspect is simply wrong - or rather, to shove it down other people's throats.
The way I see it, you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
You have higher post count than me, and I like the change... what are you talking about? You're borderline delusional.
Once again my post was not about balance. Try again :p Really put your entire brainpower into reading it, i even opened my thesis with: "the reason for my post was...."
On May 07 2010 08:18 Lollersauce wrote: I'm just wondering how you're presently supposed to ZvP against a P who gets just enough defense/sentries to wall and go air. Apparently Blizzard thinks we are supposed to counter void rays with infestor NP (lol, let's tally up the cost/time investments someone) and investing into corruptors who are AtA only just to not get raped by OL hunting and gravbeams sounds like a totally winning plan to me, considering phoenixes double up as AtG.
Basically all I'm seeing is fast hydra den... zzz.
Huh? The same way you did before.. multiple queens while getting lair then hydra? Mass Phoenix from a single base will be the same as it was.
Well that's basically one less option (mutas) against a toss even just getting his cy core. Considering how weak our options are on ground already thanks to FF everywhere, zerg is just basically pigeonholed into even fewer choices. Not like there was many to begin with. I guess the point is, did toss really need a counter to mutas with blinking stalkers and sentries at t1? Even void rays weren't bad.
Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do? All of the other races don't rely on a single unit, and this one even comes from the same tech tree. Really, just adjust from going mass muta to muta-muta-muta-corruptor-muta-muta-muta-corruptor, or something.
Oh, and Void Rays are very expensive, require micro, and are inefficient against large numbers ^_^
exactly, Blizzard is making these patches in order to create incentive for greater unit mixture without massing any particular unit
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote:I personally think the "STFU, you have a low post count, you suck, go to hell," blatantly biased attitude that is portrayed by others is far worse than my own. And, might I add, this "attitude" that you see is merely response to what I deem is unjust. QQ'ing about SC2 because it doesn't have a certain aspect is simply wrong - or rather, to shove it down other people's throats.
The way I see it, you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
You have higher post count than me, and I like the change... what are you talking about?
Once again my post was not about balance. Try again :p
Sorry for being unclear :/ I was referring to the people who DID do that ^_^
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote:I personally think the "STFU, you have a low post count, you suck, go to hell," blatantly biased attitude that is portrayed by others is far worse than my own. And, might I add, this "attitude" that you see is merely response to what I deem is unjust. QQ'ing about SC2 because it doesn't have a certain aspect is simply wrong - or rather, to shove it down other people's throats.
The way I see it, you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
You have higher post count than me, and I like the change... what are you talking about?
Once again my post was not about balance. Try again :p
Sorry for being unclear :/ I was referring to the people who DID do that ^_^
Really?
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote:I personally think the "STFU, you have a low post count, you suck, go to hell," blatantly biased attitude that is portrayed by others is far worse than my own. And, might I add, this "attitude" that you see is merely response to what I deem is unjust. QQ'ing about SC2 because it doesn't have a certain aspect is simply wrong - or rather, to shove it down other people's throats.
The way I see it, you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote: The way I see it, you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote: you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote: you're
But im forgiving of typos.
And yes, timing a move, then hold position, then the move away is MUCH harder than timing a move away.
On May 07 2010 08:38 Lollersauce wrote: Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
Phoenix couldn't kill overlords and gravity beam Drones in Patch 10?
Also, Corruptors are every good Zerg's standard answer to Colossi. Sup.
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
On May 07 2010 08:38 Lollersauce wrote: Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
Phoenix couldn't kill overlords and gravity beam Drones in Patch 10?
Also, Corruptors are every good Zerg's standard answer to Colossi. Sup.
Not to mention their debuff is also good vs Immortals as well as Colossi. +damage is always great.
On May 07 2010 08:38 Lollersauce wrote: Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
Phoenix couldn't kill overlords and gravity beam Drones in Patch 10?
They sure could, but they would die to mutas before hitting critical mass. Not the case now. One less option and I don't see new ones opening up, since corruptor doesn't help anything AtG.
I'm not saying Zerg can't defend themselves or the matchup is imba... I'm saying the already small amount of options is dwindling down some more.
On May 07 2010 08:45 Lollersauce wrote: They sure could, but they would die to mutas before hitting critical mass. Not the case now. One less option and I don't see new ones opening up, since corruptor doesn't help anything AtG.
Why do you insist on countering Phoenix with Mutas lol. Phoenix is supposed to be the Mutas counter unit not the other way around.
On May 07 2010 08:38 Lollersauce wrote: Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
Phoenix couldn't kill overlords and gravity beam Drones in Patch 10?
They sure could, but they would die to mutas before hitting critical mass. Not the case now. One less option and I don't see new ones opening up, since corruptor doesn't help anything AtG.
So you're complaining because you can't hit "Hatchery -> Mx2173987" and win anymore? That you actually have to change your strategy to win? That maybe Mutas aren't meant to be entirely anti-Protoss (which you should have realized with the Stalker buff vs Light in the first place)?
Other people adjust to their builds, so you can too. It's not too hard, just click a different hotkey :D
On May 07 2010 08:38 Lollersauce wrote: Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
Phoenix couldn't kill overlords and gravity beam Drones in Patch 10?
They sure could, but they would die to mutas before hitting critical mass. Not the case now. One less option and I don't see new ones opening up, since corruptor doesn't help anything AtG.
I'm not saying Zerg can't defend themselves or the matchup is imba... I'm saying the already small amount of options is dwindling down some more.
U can corr/mutalisk early game to take care of phoenixes, and then use the corrs later to morph into brood lords, provides some incentive for that. This would be good as you have already claimed air superiority vs the phoenixes.
it looks unnatural .... practically any air unit with a range < 6 gets raped, while units with air attack < 6 cannot defend. Also, take into consideration that now, players can select how many units they want at once. It's not like in SC:BW when only JaeDong could dance with 2 groups of mutas, now every1 can select any number of units in a group. Moving shot can become so overpowered now comparing to sc1. Waiting for patch 12 to fix all of this
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
Lol youre so ridiculously oblivious. You're belittling muta micro and you don't even realize it. It's not as simple as pressing H in between clicks, but the TIMING it takes to do it. (Hence the TIMING which muta micro required you to time THREE seperate actions, a move, H, and another move, flawlessly, rather than a single move as is with phoenixes)
Nvm, I forgot that everyone can do this super easily and has muta micro on par with jaedong and julyzerg.
And you still don't understand my post. Lol, hopeless at this point I guess. That's okay, keep doing what you do.
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
I don't get why you are happy about this change since you said that you like the fact that there (according to you) were much more focus on macro in SC 2 in the "Oh micro, were art thou?" thread.
Aside from that, this is a good change. Why you like it though, is beyond me, becasue that goes against what you have said earlier. You wanted no change, remember? Do you just want to contradict all the long time SC fans on this forum? Because that's the impression that your posts are giving me.
ok so i just tested the phoenix myself, and i did NOT know you could literally just right click and they attack automatically, holy hell, blizzard is fucking retarded. i was literally spamming right click AHAHHAHA
On May 07 2010 08:18 Lollersauce wrote: I'm just wondering how you're presently supposed to ZvP against a P who gets just enough defense/sentries to wall and go air. Apparently Blizzard thinks we are supposed to counter void rays with infestor NP (lol, let's tally up the cost/time investments someone) and investing into corruptors who are AtA only just to not get raped by OL hunting and gravbeams sounds like a totally winning plan to me, considering phoenixes double up as AtG.
Basically all I'm seeing is fast hydra den... zzz.
Huh? The same way you did before.. multiple queens while getting lair then hydra? Mass Phoenix from a single base will be the same as it was.
Well that's basically one less option (mutas) against a toss even just getting his cy core. Considering how weak our options are on ground already thanks to FF everywhere, zerg is just basically pigeonholed into even fewer choices. Not like there was many to begin with. I guess the point is, did toss really need a counter to mutas with blinking stalkers and sentries at t1? Even void rays weren't bad.
Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do? All of the other races don't rely on a single unit, and this one even comes from the same tech tree. Really, just adjust from going mass muta to muta-muta-muta-corruptor-muta-muta-muta-corruptor, or something.
Oh, and Void Rays are very expensive, require micro, and are inefficient against large numbers ^_^
I don't think it's about making more units types - it's great if this also matters edit:+ Show Spoiler +
and use of Corrupters after there is no Pheonix threat is underrated a lot, there are still edit2: Colossi LOL, Warp Prisms warping in units and Observers to take care of without trying to find them in P army and focus fire them with Hydras
and it does matter in BW also (Scourge) but what many people see here is making Phoenix VS Muta fights very one sided up to the point it's impossible for mutas to win It takes away options players have and dynamism from spectator's point of view - it looks as if it's very hard for mutas to do anything with not as much micro from Protoss player required.
It's good if Phoenixes miroed well demolish Mutas but it's not as impressive if they do this just flying backwards >_<
On May 07 2010 08:38 Lollersauce wrote: Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
Phoenix couldn't kill overlords and gravity beam Drones in Patch 10?
They sure could, but they would die to mutas before hitting critical mass. Not the case now. One less option and I don't see new ones opening up, since corruptor doesn't help anything AtG.
So you're complaining because you can't hit "Hatchery -> Mx2173987" and win anymore? That you actually have to change your strategy to win? That maybe Mutas aren't meant to be entirely anti-Protoss (which you should have realized with the Stalker buff vs Light in the first place)?
Other people adjust to their builds, so you can too. It's not too hard, just click a different hotkey :D
I'm not sure you've realized or not by now, but Zerg don't actually have that much of a unit selection to begin with. Against a toss with a few sentries, the only really viable combat units are roaches WITH full upgrades (burrow to avoid getting raped by FF), and hydras. Unless of course you manage to somehow tech to greater spire and get broodlords.
Mutas were a third unit you could use in this MU to actually do some damage once FF came into play. And even then they were hardly the "mass and a-move" type.
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
I don't get why you are happy about this change since you said that you like the fact that there (according to you) were much more focus on macro in SC 2 in the "Oh micro, were art thou?" thread.
Aside from that, this is a good change. Why you like it though, is beyond me, becasue that goes against what you have said earlier. You wanted no change, remember? Do you just want to contradict all the long time SC fans on this forum? Because that's the impression that your posts are giving me.
I never said I wanted no change; I simply said that I believed macro was more important than micro. Phoenix being weak and needing to be buffed is a separate matter altogether, which I'm happy that Phoenixes are no longer sub-par relative to Mutas compared to other hard counters in the game.
i can see how one would want to hold sc2 high on a general scale. it's indeed the second best rts we have and the only one that will enhance and progress rts esports in the near future. but i don't understand how this can be an excuse to not implement major MICRO GENERATING elements like proper animation cancelling. i don't see how this game wants to be any different from c&c generals.
i can only again compare this to fighting games. what made many of those games great on the higher levels of play was the possibility to cancel certain frames to issue even more powerful combos. if you didn't have this option of cancelling the animation you would have been limited to your normal attacks and normal combos without any opportunity to break out of this. it required a surplus of ability to control the game (let's call it micro) and provided for deeper and more varied ways to exploit game mechanics. that's what we want i guess and that's what all the fuss with the moving shot was about, it's not about the moving shot - as FA already stated - blizz confused milestones with end of the road. (END OF THE ROAD NOT UNITS THAT CAN SHOOT WHILE MOVING BUT UNITS THAT NEED TO BE MICROED EXPERTLY TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN).
i fully support sc2 because i know that it's not a bad game by any means but if it's not a very basic engine problem with moving shot then the premise of letting making units DANCE hasn't been understood by blizz and that's that.
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
I don't get why you are happy about this change since you said that you like the fact that there (according to you) were much more focus on macro in SC 2 in the "Oh micro, were art thou?" thread.
Aside from that, this is a good change. Why you like it though, is beyond me, becasue that goes against what you have said earlier. You wanted no change, remember? Do you just want to contradict all the long time SC fans on this forum? Because that's the impression that your posts are giving me.
I never said I wanted no change; I simply said that I believed macro was more important than micro. Phoenix being weak and needing to be buffed is a separate matter altogether, which I'm happy that Phoenixes are no longer sub-par relative to Mutas compared to other hard counters in the game.
Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Please read the OP again if you have the time, as I've been following the thread and am disheartened at all the chaos. So I tried to be more specific in my editedOP and hopefully will help a more clearer, sophisticated discussion come to fruition.
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
I don't get why you are happy about this change since you said that you like the fact that there (according to you) were much more focus on macro in SC 2 in the "Oh micro, were art thou?" thread.
Aside from that, this is a good change. Why you like it though, is beyond me, becasue that goes against what you have said earlier. You wanted no change, remember? Do you just want to contradict all the long time SC fans on this forum? Because that's the impression that your posts are giving me.
I never said I wanted no change; I simply said that I believed macro was more important than micro. Phoenix being weak and needing to be buffed is a separate matter altogether, which I'm happy that Phoenixes are no longer sub-par relative to Mutas compared to other hard counters in the game.
Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because I don't agree with the statement, "this doesn't require any micro"
It's a bit micro-intensive for my own tastes, and I think something like giving it more HP and reducing the build cost or something like that could have worked, but it's not an entire shift in focus between macro and micro, and helps a balance problem. I'm fine with that (although don't think I'm giddy with excitement, as you seem to think I am)
On May 07 2010 08:55 KungKras wrote: Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because it does?
I don't play Protoss, but I'm more inclined to believe Nazgul, who's actually spent the time testing this in game than a bunch of people who haven't even played since the patch went live. And by all counts Nazgul says this requires micro. It's not game-changing, but I suspect Blizzard intentionally chose the Phoenix as a unit with which to test the water because other units would have larger balance ramifications. If Nazgul, one of the bigger pessimists about the mechanical requirement in SC2, believes this is a step in the right direction, then I'm inclined to believe his opinion.
All the people who feel like micro is being completely eliminated, why don't you take all of this new 'free time' you have and using it to do things that used to not be worth it but are still better than nothing. Like single unit management and better focus targeting in large encounters where a-move is pretty norm. The wc3 players making the transition to sc2 are doing this and doing it pretty well because they're used to that style from their game, and sc2 does seem to have some wc3 type elements to it with the attack animation style and whatnot. There is potential for a TON of micro still, and I'd bet that any top pro BW player will be worrying about what is now the best usage of their micro time instead of crying about what they can no longer do.
Oh and ya my post count is low as fuck so I'm probably going to get blasted for this ^_^
You people are ridiculous. Just go play BW if it's that big of a deal to you. Or better yet, make your own SC2 mod when it's released and do whatever the fuck you want with it. Jesus.
Why is it that all users on competitive forums are total whine-bags whenever something changes?
On May 07 2010 08:55 KungKras wrote: Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because it does?
I don't play Protoss, but I'm more inclined to believe Nazgul, who's actually spent the time testing this in game than a bunch of people who haven't even played since the patch went live. And by all counts Nazgul says this requires micro. It's not game-changing, but I suspect Blizzard intentionally chose the Phoenix as a unit with which to test the water because other units would have larger balance ramifications. If Nazgul, one of the bigger pessimists about the mechanical requirement in SC2, believes this is a step in the right direction, then I'm inclined to believe his opinion.
I belive Nazgul too (wich you can see in the first post that I made in the thread). I really really like this new phoenix macro. I was just asking Zeke that because I found it odd for him to like the change based on his previous posts. This patch is awesome and people that are complaining should at least see the glass as half full.
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
I don't get why you are happy about this change since you said that you like the fact that there (according to you) were much more focus on macro in SC 2 in the "Oh micro, were art thou?" thread.
Aside from that, this is a good change. Why you like it though, is beyond me, becasue that goes against what you have said earlier. You wanted no change, remember? Do you just want to contradict all the long time SC fans on this forum? Because that's the impression that your posts are giving me.
I never said I wanted no change; I simply said that I believed macro was more important than micro. Phoenix being weak and needing to be buffed is a separate matter altogether, which I'm happy that Phoenixes are no longer sub-par relative to Mutas compared to other hard counters in the game.
Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because I don't agree with the statement, "this doesn't require any micro"
It's a bit micro-intensive for my own tastes, and I think something like giving it more HP and reducing the build cost or something like that could have worked, but it's not an entire shift in focus between macro and micro, and helps a balance problem. I'm fine with that (although don't think I'm giddy with excitement, as you seem to think I am)
On May 07 2010 08:55 KungKras wrote: Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because it does?
I don't play Protoss, but I'm more inclined to believe Nazgul, who's actually spent the time testing this in game than a bunch of people who haven't even played since the patch went live. And by all counts Nazgul says this requires micro. It's not game-changing, but I suspect Blizzard intentionally chose the Phoenix as a unit with which to test the water because other units would have larger balance ramifications. If Nazgul, one of the bigger pessimists about the mechanical requirement in SC2, believes this is a step in the right direction, then I'm inclined to believe his opinion.
I think he believed YOU HAVE TO spam move. You don't
On May 07 2010 08:55 KungKras wrote: Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because it does?
I don't play Protoss, but I'm more inclined to believe Nazgul, who's actually spent the time testing this in game than a bunch of people who haven't even played since the patch went live. And by all counts Nazgul says this requires micro. It's not game-changing, but I suspect Blizzard intentionally chose the Phoenix as a unit with which to test the water because other units would have larger balance ramifications. If Nazgul, one of the bigger pessimists about the mechanical requirement in SC2, believes this is a step in the right direction, then I'm inclined to believe his opinion.
I think he believed YOU HAVE TO spam move. You don't
On May 07 2010 08:55 KungKras wrote: Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because it does?
I don't play Protoss, but I'm more inclined to believe Nazgul, who's actually spent the time testing this in game than a bunch of people who haven't even played since the patch went live. And by all counts Nazgul says this requires micro. It's not game-changing, but I suspect Blizzard intentionally chose the Phoenix as a unit with which to test the water because other units would have larger balance ramifications. If Nazgul, one of the bigger pessimists about the mechanical requirement in SC2, believes this is a step in the right direction, then I'm inclined to believe his opinion.
I think he believed YOU HAVE TO spam move. You don't
I think he believed YOU HAVE TO spam move. You don't
Reposted from the other thread:
The micro in the second video above is terrible. Running the Phoenix past the Mutas repeatedly just lets the Mutas constantly pound on them. There's pretty much no difference between what the guy in the video does, and what would happen if you just attack-moved...except you can't focus fire at all, so it's actually worse.
The proper way to Phoenix micro is to run the Phoenix around just out of range of the Mutas, so that the Phoenix can attack them without being attacked themselves. THIS way, the Phoenix are quite deadly.
Guys I know he's flying through those mutas, I'm saying he used literally 3? commands during whole video. I thought you would have to at least spam move to prevent Phoenixes from decelerating!
As long as you don't fly through them you always not only outrange mutas but escape because Phoenixes are faster! Same goes for chasing Mutas down!
I've played a couple of games and my mutas are now effectively useless versus protoss. I try to evade phoenixes but to no avail. they can follow you in any direction and snipe down your mutas with little to no effort. before, i was able to micro my mutas to gain an advantage over these units, and then simply mass produce mutas and gain air dominance. No longer is that possible.
On May 07 2010 09:29 beetlelisk wrote: Guys I know he's flying through those mutas, I'm saying he used literally 3? commands during whole video. I thought you would have to at least spam move to prevent Phoenixes from decelerating!
You will need to keep your phoenixes in a pretty narrow radius realtive to the mutas to avoid getting hit and hit them at the same time. It will require much use of the move command becasue you will have to fine-tune the position of the phoenixes and respond to how the mutas are moving. If that was what you meant.
On May 07 2010 09:29 beetlelisk wrote: Guys I know he's flying through those mutas, I'm saying he used literally 3? commands during whole video. I thought you would have to at least spam move to prevent Phoenixes from decelerating!
As long as you don't fly through them you always not only outrange mutas but escape because Phoenixes are faster! Same goes for chasing Mutas down!
It's the exact same effect as with a single Attack move >.>
Also, Phoenixes cost more, and take longer to make. That generally means you'll be outnumber their phoenixes, so simply turning around while being chased will catch the opponent off guard and take some hits.
I hope this is a way to discourage Korean Zerg players from going mass Spine Crawler into mass Muta against Protoss and encourage to use different strategies. The way I see this now I hope this is a temporary solution.
I like the new movement and I'm a zerg player. The only thing I'd be worried about is if it's too powerful now but time will tell. Everyone is so fickle.
On May 07 2010 08:55 KungKras wrote: Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because it does?
I don't play Protoss, but I'm more inclined to believe Nazgul, who's actually spent the time testing this in game than a bunch of people who haven't even played since the patch went live. And by all counts Nazgul says this requires micro. It's not game-changing, but I suspect Blizzard intentionally chose the Phoenix as a unit with which to test the water because other units would have larger balance ramifications. If Nazgul, one of the bigger pessimists about the mechanical requirement in SC2, believes this is a step in the right direction, then I'm inclined to believe his opinion.
I think he believed YOU HAVE TO spam move. You don't
I'm surprised people are even debating whether this is good for gameplay or not when it just looks totally ridiculous. Seeing this makes me think Blizzard is giving this community way too much credit. The community's opinions should definitely influence the game, but when silly things like this make it in where Blizzard clearly misinterpreted what people wanted but went and added a completely nonsensical mechanic anyways... well I'm not even sure what to think anymore.
Phoenixes shouldn't flip backward and fire shots off while moving forward without losing momentum. This is just stupid. They can design some unit that does this if they want but don't artificially create completely inane mechanics like this.
On May 07 2010 09:35 beetlelisk wrote: I hope this is a way to discourage Korean Zerg players from going mass Spine Crawler into mass Muta against Protoss and encourage to use different strategies. The way I see this now I hope this is a temporary solution.
What different strategies are we speaking of here? Mass hydra/roach? What other units can compete with forcefield?
Edit: what they actually did was shut down one option (mutas) and give us absolutely jack squat as a trade off. ZvP is now pretty much hydras and roaches period. With a few speedlings in the early game.
LOL! right now im just going to see the phoenix "moving shot" as a bug because i know blizzard is not that retarded.
anyone who agrees this is a good change to pheonix is a fucking idiot and i can care less who u are. anyone with a brain can see how imbalanced that shit is and how stupid looking it is. you cant even call something like that micro.
On May 07 2010 09:29 beetlelisk wrote: Guys I know he's flying through those mutas, I'm saying he used literally 3? commands during whole video. I thought you would have to at least spam move to prevent Phoenixes from decelerating!
As long as you don't fly through them you always not only outrange mutas but escape because Phoenixes are faster! Same goes for chasing Mutas down!
It's the exact same effect as with a single Attack move >.>
I don't understand you I'm sorry.
Also, Phoenixes cost more, and take longer to make. That generally means you'll be outnumber their phoenixes, so simply turning around while being chased will catch the opponent off guard and take some hits.
I'm not sure if I understand everything here also, their gas cost is the same which is enough because they are not only faster but also have bigger range. It doesn't seem to me running away is going to be a problem... unless Zerg makes some Infestors maybe.
On May 07 2010 06:08 SWPIGWANG wrote: I don't think gitching with the patrol key is really a sane way to design a modern RTS around. to make full use of move-shot, you want to move in and out according to your cooldown cycle anyways. Give it some time to see how it plays out.
As for the funny look, its protoss, they are allows to break physics.....
Since when is turning around while moving one way breaking physics? Have you tried to walk facing forward and then turn and walk backward?
Just got back from playing a few games with them. Really they can harass slightly easier, which is nice, because Protoss were lacking harass mechanics, and they can beat Mutalisks better. Other than that, really nothing too amazing. I wouldn't say OP, but I am by no means a pro, and I am sure there are people out there who will find some way to make this really OP.
Quite unexpected, really different than what we are are talking about when we say moving shot, but why not ?
This is actually requiring micro to be usefull (at its full potential). I'm quite curious about this. This is the kind of things I like to see, and I'm pretty sure we will see some nice game with it (I'm thinking about PvZ).
The problem with ZvP isn't that fungal growth is good or bad. The problem is that more often than not, half your army isn't dealing damage because there are indestructible terrain obstacles all over the screen.
This discussion is getting eerily similar to the Melee vs Brawl discussion that occurred after Brawl was initially released. What people had to eventually come to realize was that Brawl was not Melee 2.0. Of course, the difference is that Brawl is about as bad as you get if looking for a competitive game. Oh yeah, the player base ended up making a modified version of Brawl that allows much more competitive play. The difference there is that SC2 allows for such mods more natively than Brawl did.
Anywho, the point is we're not playing SC:BW 2.0 here, meaning a remake of SC:BW with new units. NonY has shown time and again that Phoenix are quite effective, but of all the matches I watched, he seemed to use Phoenix least in PvZ. The one time I did see him do it -- against Moonglade in the HDH Invitational -- he lost almost all of his Pheonix to Mutalisks. Phoenix stand at or slightly above even against Vikings, a unit they don't even get bonus damage for. Why should Mutas do so much better?
The solution could not have possibly been to add more damage to the Phoenix because the damage on it is already insane. Edit: Actually, as was posted by the OP of the thread that originally brought up the moving shot, with a mechanic like this we could actually see a damage nerf to the Phoenix and still keep its utility. They have that 1 extra range, but the problem was they couldn't make efficient use of it. That was the clue to solving the problem. We may not have gotten the result we expected, but I don't see how spamming right click involves any less time investment than a few extra keyboard presses. I do realize that less mechanical skill is involved, but I'm pretty sure it was the multi-tasking that was truly difficult in BW.
On a side-note: Every Protoss air unit now has this mechanic of attacking while moving. Kinda cool to have such consistency, even if they Phoenix is the only one that literally flies backwards (although, when is the Mothership ever not flying backwards? ). Cheers!
There is definitely going to be some fun in watching Zerg position their Corruptors properly or seeing all/majority of Phoenixes caught by Fungal Growth and obliterated but it would be even better if it would be possible to have not only this but also to be able to just micro Mutas better.
While this IS going to be entertaining that's still less options to play and watch.
On May 07 2010 09:49 Raislin wrote: This discussion is getting eerily similar to the Melee vs Brawl discussion that occurred after Brawl was initially released. What people had to eventually come to realize was that Brawl was not Melee 2.0. Of course, the difference is that Brawl is about as bad as you get if looking for a competitive game. Oh yeah, the player base ended up making a modified version of Brawl that allows much more competitive play. The difference there is that SC2 allows for such mods more natively than Brawl did.
Another huge asset we have is that the designers are actually working very hard to make this a balanced competitive game (even if some of us disagree with them), instead of the community making a game competitive that probably was never intended to be (or do Smash fans argue otherwise??)
I went to a melee tournament and it blew my mind how that game could so competitive, there are so many tricks and techniques the designers probably never even considered.
SC2 clearly has a large number of people working only on balance and competitive design.
On May 07 2010 09:49 Raislin wrote: The solution could not have possibly been to add more damage to the Phoenix because the damage on it is already insane. Edit: Actually, as was posted by the OP of the thread that originally brought up the moving shot, with a mechanic like this we could actually see a damage nerf to the Phoenix and still keep its utility. They have that 1 extra range, but the problem was they couldn't make efficient use of it. That was the clue to solving the problem. We may not have gotten the result we expected, but I don't see how spamming right click involves any less time investment than a few extra keyboard presses. I do realize that less mechanical skill is involved, but I'm pretty sure it was the multi-tasking that was truly difficult in BW.
Balancing it in any other way than changing damage values doesn't have to mean putting turns in the very certain degrees like in Chinese Triangle back.
I don't think being forced to click Patrol behind your units and move away ASAP is that much of spamming. Phoenixes are still faster so they can use their +1range against Mutas and upgrading their attack to +1 would also still matter. Now it doesn't, all you have to know is if there are Infestor or Hydras and where are they, that is all. Even rush maps have enough space to kite mutas in a perfectly free way.
just tested 10 muta vs 5 phoenix in custom game against some ppl... u wont kill a single phoenix. I guess phoenix really hard counters muta now, unfortunately to a point where it almost makes no sense building them anymore.
On May 07 2010 08:55 KungKras wrote: Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because it does?
I don't play Protoss, but I'm more inclined to believe Nazgul, who's actually spent the time testing this in game than a bunch of people who haven't even played since the patch went live. And by all counts Nazgul says this requires micro. It's not game-changing, but I suspect Blizzard intentionally chose the Phoenix as a unit with which to test the water because other units would have larger balance ramifications. If Nazgul, one of the bigger pessimists about the mechanical requirement in SC2, believes this is a step in the right direction, then I'm inclined to believe his opinion.
I think he believed YOU HAVE TO spam move. You don't
yeah I hadn't realized now all protoss flyiers can shoot while moving, but I still think the phoenix looks awkward when doing this, it should shoot from its back while still moving forward
On May 07 2010 10:15 diehilde wrote: just tested 10 muta vs 5 phoenix in custom game against some ppl... u wont kill a single phoenix. I guess phoenix really hard counters muta now, unfortunately to a point where it almost makes no sense building them anymore.
I already made them rarely vs P, as pretty much all of them get a ton of sentry/stalkers and they will just wait till they got their colossus to push out and in that case mutas dont really do a great job of defending. And while theyre waiting, harassing isnt really that effective..
On May 07 2010 10:20 NeoScout wrote: yeah I hadn't realized now all protoss flyiers can shoot while moving, but I still think the phoenix looks awkward when doing this, it should shoot from its back while still moving forward
Well at least Void Rays need their speed upgrade to be able to kite but cost of Fleet Beacon just for that is pretty huge. Carriers can be not just some undiscovered tech path and possible but not (yet?) seen addition... but just pointless when Phoenixes in gas can do the same job T_T.
Well I guess this means Protoss air doesn't have to dominate no matter what. no speed for Rays -> no Corrupter kiting... >_<
edit: jesus what am I even trying to discuss here, I can feel my brain melting and leaking through my ears gnight
How would you guys feel if Move no longer auto-acquired targets? That means you would, at the very least, need to hit "Hold Position" in order to attack.
You might think it's pointless, but people seem to be obsessed with the fact that moving should never attack as well. It also shortens the timing window in which you can avoid damage completely (if only by .001 of a second)
On May 07 2010 09:50 Joey.rumz wrote: I feel bad for the guys that legit. wanted moving shot, saw the patch notes, tried it, and realized how 'lol' it really is. That sucks man.
On May 07 2010 06:26 FrozenArbiter wrote: Someone pointed out that it might not make sense to call patrol micro "animation cancelling". I was thinking of the ability for - say - a muta to chase a wraith without losing movement speed between shots when I heard moving shot, but some people seem to refer to their ability to snipe scourges without losing speed - ie, patrol micro.
yes thats what i want for air units in general. vikings can almost do it because of their massive range and low attack stop but this would be much better for phonix instead of this auto ai
why does the phonix even look like an airplane with wings if it flies same speed to all directions, makes 0 sense what so ever
On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
On May 07 2010 06:30 Polemarch wrote: Some people have commented that muta behaviour has been changed. A critical balance question is, if mutas get within range of phoenixes, can they chase them down kill them with moving-shot?
For this to happen they'd need to be able to be microed to shoot without decelerating and have at least the same speed as the phoenix.
if this is true then were halfway to a comeback of mutaharass in tvz :p
No micro is hard in a vacuum after a bit of practice. A bit different when you're trying to maintain macro, chrono boost, and move your other units at the same time.
On May 07 2010 06:53 decemvre wrote: Its pretty clear to me now that some blizzard employees actually read these forums so this is basically a thread dedicated to them.
Its pretty obvious that someone read Lalush's thread about the BroodWar "moving-shot". Unfortunately whoever read that post completely missunderstood what we mean by "moving-shot".
I'll try and be brief.
1. Never did we mean to say that we wanted units that could attack targets while moving (after being issued only a simple "MOVE" command).
2. The units in BroodWar that can perform "move-shot" do so as a result of being issued both the attack command and the move command very quickly. This is possible because they have short fireing animations.
Please note that he is using BOTH move and attack very quickly in order to have the mutas move immediately after their fire animation thus they basically never stop and are able to perform what we mean by "moving-shot".
Units that can do this ONLY when "micro-ed propperly: Vulture, Goliath (to a lesser degree), Wraith, Mutalisk, Probes, Drones, (maybe guardians and battlecruisers i really dont know), Archon, Corsair, Scout (the scout is the best possible example of this).
What i mean by "microed properly" is being issued very fast move and attack commands so that they don't completely stop to do their fireing animation !
3. Units in BroodWar that have different attacks when being issued the "Patrol" command and not the Attack command. Patrol is basically used instead of attack while also still having the "move command" constantly being sent to the unit.
Vultures will now demonstrate the awesomeness of "Patrol Micro":
The Vulture is capable of a different kind of micro depending on weather Attack + move or Patrol + Move is issued. The turning animation for the Vulture decreaseas GREATLY when Patrol is being used. Attack + Move is used when chasing after an enemy unit while Patrol + Move is being used when being chansed by an enemy unit !!!
And now the wonder of the Valkyries: - again by using Patrol + Move instead of Attack + Move the Valkyries are able to behave completely differently. If "Attack" is used Valks are unable to move for the duration of their fireing animation.
Now, PLEASE understand that this kind of micro (yes in BroodWar it is a result of an imperfect game-engine, but just look how much fun it can be to do this...) needs to be difficult to achieve, or if not "difficult", both Attack and Move commands MUST be used in order to be demanding on a players multitasking (the ability to manage both micro and macro and other things).
This is what i've got so far, i hope whoever @ blizzard has been reading these forums now understands what we mean when we say moving-shot.
Basically its not that a unit should be able to attack even though its being issued a move command, but that through quick alternation of Move and Attack commands the unit keeps moving during its fireing animation.
Also, it would be WONDERFULL if as shown above there was a slight difference between the way a unit behaves / microes when being issued the Patrol command rather than the Attack command. My suggestion is that you make a couple of units (say 1 or 2 for each race) have a much shorter turning animation when Patrol + Move is being used instead of Attack + Move, very quickly !!!
^ THIS*10000
Sometimes I wonder if Blizzard knows what "micro" means. Goddammit. Ugh.
Sorry don't have time to read through the last few pages...
BUT, I have tested it in the editor, which is much more constructive than to say "OP phoenix".
Anyway, actually I like how the phoenix work, IF it didn't have auto-attack
I realize that it'll remove the fact that they can attack while moving, because when you issue an attack command, whether running or chasing, it WILL decelerate ur phoenix.
Right now, why is it so OP is imo the fact that they are fast and can just move on retreating enemies to shoot them down without effort. I have tried retreating phoenix vs muta, but muta can shoot at least a few shots if phoenix want to shoot without getting shot while backing up. This is true only because of the fact that phoenix have a range of 4 (muta 3).
However, when the enemy unit range is higher than 4, like corruptor and of course vikings, retreating phoenix is not effective because those units gets free shots from retreating phoenix. I have found in editor testing that retreating phoenix is just outranged by anything range 3 or less, like muta.
Chasing phoenix, on the other hand, is good against retreating enemies, because phoenix are fast and can get free shots without any deceleration while your enemy retreat.
Blizzard thus should at least (or MUST) remove auto-attack, and maybe change the stats for deceleration or attack animation.
Actually, to add to my previous post, I want to say that microing phoenix against muta takes much more, because phoenix vs muta range diff is only of 1. You need to constantly right click back and forth.
Actually, I have to say that I have an easier time microing against chasing muta if I move back, hold position, move back, hold position, move front, move back, hold position. That way phoenix actually DOES attack without much deceleration and actually can stay out of range of muta if a person have perfect micro. I dunno, that might be a feeling too.
I just get the feeling that blizzard is just trying to force corrupters on us. Corruption was a good support ability, but blizzard seems to be intent on turning them into a main-use unit, now that corrupters are now the only air unit capable of taking out phoenix, thanks to speed buff.
Last time he admitted that they required corrupters for brood lords to give corrupters a wider purpose in the game. I think if you have to look to ways to include something, or change core mechanics to make that thing work ... maybe that thing doesn't belong in the first place.
I dunno, Dustin must have some kind of hard-on for tentacles or something.
@ those who think that Blizzard thinks this is what you mean by the deceleration micro. No. Blizzard didn't implement this instead of that. What is asked in that is a mechanical change, that would, for the most part affect all air units. That may or may not show in the patch notes, but it would be universal. This is NOT that. This is EXCLUSIVE to the Phoenix, and designed to buff the Phoenix themselves and make them a fun and interesting unit. For the most part, the Phoenix was very dull. Much better now.
@ those who claim this would be stupid OP. Try it. You will find that is NOT true. I know this because I HAVE tried it. This makes them stronger against Mutalisks (the unit they are designed to counter), Banshees (no GIGANTIC difference, since they couldn't fire back anyway), Overlords (swoops of the base will be a legit form of harass, but can be countered) and any retreating air.
Surprisingly enough (lol right), Vikings (9 range), Corruptors (now buffed against non-massive and with 2 armor), Void Rays (7 range, no overdamage), Capital Ships (outside Broodlords. Too much damage, HP and Armor), other Phoenix (lol), are relatively unchanged.
On May 07 2010 07:05 willeesmalls wrote: Why shouldn't phoenix hard counter mutas? They cost the same, Protoss needs a specific tech building to get it, they come out slowly, and do not harrass workers or influence a big fight the way mutas can.
Yeah, I mean like the spire is totally not a tech building at all!
But no, I have no problem with this change, looking forward to using more corruptors as Zerg :-)
On May 07 2010 10:06 BladeRunner wrote: instead of the community making a game competitive that probably was never intended to be (or do Smash fans argue otherwise??)
No, Brawl was never intended by Sakurai to be competitive. He did everything he could to prevent it from being competitive and he did a damn good job. So what you say is definitely true.
On May 07 2010 10:08 beetlelisk wrote: I don't think being forced to click Patrol behind your units and move away ASAP is that much of spamming. Phoenixes are still faster so they can use their +1range against Mutas and upgrading their attack to +1 would also still matter. Now it doesn't, all you have to know is if there are Infestor or Hydras and where are they, that is all. Even rush maps have enough space to kite mutas in a perfectly free way.
On May 07 2010 10:15 diehilde wrote: just tested 10 muta vs 5 phoenix in custom game against some ppl... u wont kill a single phoenix. I guess phoenix really hard counters muta now, unfortunately to a point where it almost makes no sense building them anymore.
@beetlelisk: Phoenix are faster, but due to the fact that they used to decelerate before attacking, kiting didn't really work out all that well. One range just wasn't enough with the game mechanics the way they are. Being able to literally move while shooting is extremely powerful and, as I said in the post you quoted (and supported a bit by diehilde's post), Phoenix could potentially use a damage nerf now, as they got their much needed buff...just in a somewhat funky way.
To use a slightly childish, yet relevant counterpoint to both of you: Zealots can be kited by Marines, Marauders, Reapers, Roaches, etc, etc and, at best, Charge simply prevents you from taking zero damage in the process. Does that mean it makes no sense not to build Zealots and/or research Charge? Keep in mind that I don't necessarily disagree completely, but that I'm much too hesitant to call any imbalance, especially this early.
On May 07 2010 06:11 TheDrill wrote: Well at least they hard-counter every fucking air unit now.
Fixed.
lmao they still lose to every capital ship, they lose to corrupters, they maybe break even with vikings
Actually, I think Phoenix were already slightly superior, possibly even, to Vikings before this. That doesn't really change now except that you could swoop through with your Phoenix, then retreat while the shields heal up, which you could probably do against any air unit, though it doesn't mean it's all that effective for anything other than distraction.
I just get the feeling that blizzard is just trying to force corrupters on us. Corruption was a good support ability, but blizzard seems to be intent on turning them into a main-use unit, now that corrupters are now the only air unit capable of taking out phoenix, thanks to speed buff.
Last time he admitted that they required corrupters for brood lords to give corrupters a wider purpose in the game. I think if you have to look to ways to include something, or change core mechanics to make that thing work ... maybe that thing doesn't belong in the first place.
I dunno, Dustin must have some kind of hard-on for tentacles or something.
my 2 cents.
The muta was never meant to counter the Phoenix. Why would they intend to have 2 air units which are both available at the same tech level, one which can ONLY attack air and which costs more than the other, and have the other be able to counter an opposing races air unit cost effectively? Corrupter was always meant to be the counter the Phoenix. This is a FIX.
On May 07 2010 11:00 Redmark wrote: if it's not micro why'd you mention Nony's name instead of your own?
Because it's Nony's trademark unit that will obviously start to be popular extremely soon. Phoenixes in my opinion are now too strong with the combination of "moving shot," which is more like auto attacking, and cheap graviton beam.
Do you even know how much "micro" is required for them? Right click. See previously posted YouTube vid.
I asked if you can imagine facing them because, well, very soon you won't have to.
Of course, I take back all I said if everyone considers right-clicking "micro."
I wish my marauders shoot by themselves while I just move them.
On May 07 2010 11:00 Redmark wrote: if it's not micro why'd you mention Nony's name instead of your own?
Because it's Nony's trademark unit that will obviously start to be popular extremely soon. Phoenixes in my opinion are now too strong with the combination of "moving shot," which is more like auto attacking, and cheap graviton beam.
Do you even know how much "micro" is required for them? Right click. See previously posted YouTube vid.
I asked if you can imagine facing them because, well, very soon you won't have to.
Of course, I take back all I said if everyone considers right-clicking "micro."
I wish my marauders shoot by themselves while I just move them.
Ok, Right Clicking makes up the micro. Now time your clicks absolutely perfectly so they don't take damage.
Don't say stupid things. Number of buttons clicked =/= Amount of micro.
well, got back from trying out the phoenixes in game....its really...slow?
you CAN kill 12 mutas with 6 pheonix...but its gonna take about 5 minutes, you cant target fire at all and the circling motion needed to keep phoenixes within range distributes the damage evenly over the whole muta mass.
Its not fun to use, and its not fun to have used against you.
Conclusion: 1. Its not Imbalanced 2. Its better than before 3. Its a really boring mechanic 4. BW style "moving shot" would be 86976% more decisive and entertaining
It looks crazy... I like it! I am sad they don't allow the same anti-deceleration attack tactics... loved vulture micro in the old days... but this is something new, and it could work.
And somebody started to point this out but didn't spell it out... now Protoss have a new "thing" associated with their race. Moving air units that keep shooting. Carriers always had this since SC1 vanilla, and so now all Protoss air have it in one form or another. I thinkg it works as a "thing".
On May 07 2010 07:26 Chill wrote: For someone who can't copy/paste:
On May 07 2010 06:53 decemvre wrote: Its pretty clear to me now that some blizzard employees actually read these forums so this is basically a thread dedicated to them.
Its pretty obvious that someone read Lalush's thread about the BroodWar "moving-shot". Unfortunately whoever read that post completely missunderstood what we mean by "moving-shot".
I'll try and be brief.
1. Never did we mean to say that we wanted units that could attack targets while moving (after being issued only a simple "MOVE" command).
2. The units in BroodWar that can perform "move-shot" do so as a result of being issued both the attack command and the move command very quickly. This is possible because they have short fireing animations.
Please note that he is using BOTH move and attack very quickly in order to have the mutas move immediately after their fire animation thus they basically never stop and are able to perform what we mean by "moving-shot".
Units that can do this ONLY when "micro-ed propperly: Vulture, Goliath (to a lesser degree), Wraith, Mutalisk, Probes, Drones, (maybe guardians and battlecruisers i really dont know), Archon, Corsair, Scout (the scout is the best possible example of this).
What i mean by "microed properly" is being issued very fast move and attack commands so that they don't completely stop to do their fireing animation !
3. Units in BroodWar that have different attacks when being issued the "Patrol" command and not the Attack command. Patrol is basically used instead of attack while also still having the "move command" constantly being sent to the unit.
Vultures will now demonstrate the awesomeness of "Patrol Micro":
The Vulture is capable of a different kind of micro depending on weather Attack + move or Patrol + Move is issued. The turning animation for the Vulture decreaseas GREATLY when Patrol is being used. Attack + Move is used when chasing after an enemy unit while Patrol + Move is being used when being chansed by an enemy unit !!!
And now the wonder of the Valkyries: - again by using Patrol + Move instead of Attack + Move the Valkyries are able to behave completely differently. If "Attack" is used Valks are unable to move for the duration of their fireing animation.
Now, PLEASE understand that this kind of micro (yes in BroodWar it is a result of an imperfect game-engine, but just look how much fun it can be to do this...) needs to be difficult to achieve, or if not "difficult", both Attack and Move commands MUST be used in order to be demanding on a players multitasking (the ability to manage both micro and macro and other things).
This is what i've got so far, i hope whoever @ blizzard has been reading these forums now understands what we mean when we say moving-shot.
Basically its not that a unit should be able to attack even though its being issued a move command, but that through quick alternation of Move and Attack commands the unit keeps moving during its fireing animation.
Also, it would be WONDERFULL if as shown above there was a slight difference between the way a unit behaves / microes when being issued the Patrol command rather than the Attack command. My suggestion is that you make a couple of units (say 1 or 2 for each race) have a much shorter turning animation when Patrol + Move is being used instead of Attack + Move, very quickly !!!
^ THIS*10000
Sometimes I wonder if Blizzard knows what "micro" means. Goddammit. Ugh.
they dont. all the micro that was available in sc1 was by a pure fluke and was not intentional at all.
in sc2 there trying to intentionally form/improve micro and failing hard at it. sc1 became a competitive esport purely by a fluke and flaws in the design of the game that was never intentional and blizz was to lazy to patch/fix all those flaws/bugs/glitches/etc that made sc1 so competitive.
there basically designing there game based on flaws from the original. and this new phoenix is the result of there failure in doing such a retarded thing.
good. this is a step in the right direction. Sc2 should be made to be more like sc1, with respect to its micro mechanics. You may call things in sc1 a "glitch" but that glitchiness made the best fucking rts in the world, IN. THE. WORLD--omitting the crappiness of the reaver scarab and the dumbshitedness of probes and dragoons, clearly. Building the unit and telling it to attack--or moving it back when it is injured is fucking STANDARD. But that doesn't make a challenging rts. The ability to change the tide of battle based on micro ability or lack of is pivotal to this rts, as it was in sc1.
Hard to say, I used them in most of my matchups this evening and have mixed feelings. It still feels like they are fighting an uphill battle in any form of a real fight. It also feels like even going dual stargates I struggle to keep up with a zerg massing muta. However they seem to kill far more efficiently and snipe overlords very quick as well. So while I tend to lean to stalkers blinking to deal with muta, the phoenix does "Feel" more useful. Of course the basic problem of if Z tech switches I am stuck with a ton of basically useless air, but that is another argument.
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out?
I think this completely sums up how I feel. People were feeling like SC2 was boring because there was less micro and more firepower>firepower battles. Now we have something to micro. If it ends up being imba, include attack/patrol commands that need to be used in order to execute this. I am liking the change.
I think it's fine. Now you can realistically use phoenix to counter non-heavy air (banshees and mutas and corrupters, but most mutas and corrupters) without over-investing in phoenix.
Honestly, even though the moving shot "micro" is extremely easy to execute, it's still going to require attention and some micro. Simply shift-queuing won't work because that would require you to have some sort of clairvoyance to know where your opponent will be moving with their mutas.
The whole point of having moving shots is to increase the amount of micro opportunities and to allow for skill to be greater than mere unit stats. This does just that. The noob who just shift-queues his phoenix to fly in a circle will never achieve the results a proficient player can achieve by paying attention to his phoenixes and actually controlling and micro-ing them.
TLDR: Is it oversimplified? Yes, definitely (it's so much easier from SCBW it makes me lol). Does it "fix" the phoenix/micro situation? I think so, yes.
The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all:
- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield
Only unit we can use:
- Hydra
Problem now:
- If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die
- P can now get Colossi and kill Z
- If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins
Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi
Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are:
a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack
- - - - -
This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi.
In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi...
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all:
- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield
Only unit we can use:
- Hydra
Problem now:
- If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die
- P can now get Colossi and kill Z
- If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins
Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi
Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are:
a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack
- - - - -
This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi.
In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi...
Does anyone else find it deliciously ironic to see someone saying that Zerg don't have any good way to counter Protoss air except with a ground army that cannot keep up with the Phoenix and thus leaves the Zerg open to harassment?
Also if you are trying to use air units to counter Coloxen, then your air only has to be mobile enough to keep up with said Coloxen. If the Protoss wants to use his Phoenixes to defend them then he's going to have to bring them to your units.
The OP that talked about the benefits of micro stated that with micro tricks a smaller number of units could still choose to engage a larger one, relying on tactical movement to accomplish a task rather than numbers. Blizzard gave that, just not in the same exact way it worked in BW.
The people here who are crying forget that when both players are skilled, and when both players are aware of how this "trick" works, it no longer matters if its executed by clicking A or simply right clicking. You cant really take your eyes off your group of Phoenix. And you can just let them do whatever they want. Watch the video. Half of the time only 1 Phoenix is firing and the other two are simply moving around. Eventually someone will be like "hey if i do it a particular way, i can keep all the Phoenix facing forward and get max DPS" etc etc. And then you start to get your Jaedongs and your Flashs etc. Dont forget that high level players will have to develop techniques and ways to play against it. You will see great things done with this at high level. Both using it, and what players do against it. You got to give it time.
So upsetting to see so many alleged "intelligent esports enthusiasts" completely misunderstand how gameplay develops. Take a look at how air units worked in the early days of SC1, before moving shot was even known about. No one would ever have claimed it would evolve (one way or another) into what it did. Now Blizzard gives us a blank canvas with so much to play with and exploit and so many people are whining that it will "never be good" and its "not true esports".
People say if its not difficult than its not any good. Well ive downloaded muta maps and wraith micro maps and its not horribly difficult either. More difficult at this point than what you see in that youtube vid of the Phoenix killing the mutas in sc2, but give it time. We will still see it all play out at high level in ways that will entertain and impress.
I used to doubt SC2 because its easy to come from BW and see SC2 as a pile of shit. Its really really easy. But the more i play SC2, and the more i see people play SC2 at high level, the less doubt i have that the game is a masterpiece. It just hasnt hit its stride yet. I give Blizzard credit for even listening to us at all and making such a bold change. Do what you did in the early BW days and just play for fun and to win and eventually SC2 will be where BW is now. Quit crying about your personal definitions of micro and esports and you might actually dig the game.
On May 07 2010 14:44 Mellotron wrote: The OP that talked about the benefits of micro stated that with micro tricks a smaller number of units could still choose to engage a larger one, relying on tactical movement to accomplish a task rather than numbers. Blizzard gave that, just not in the same exact way it worked in BW.
The people here who are crying forget that when both players are skilled, and when both players are aware of how this "trick" works, it no longer matters if its executed by clicking A or simply right clicking. You cant really take your eyes off your group of Phoenix. And you can just let them do whatever they want. Watch the video. Half of the time only 1 Phoenix is firing and the other two are simply moving around. Eventually someone will be like "hey if i do it a particular way, i can keep all the Phoenix facing forward and get max DPS" etc etc. And then you start to get your Jaedongs and your Flashs etc. Dont forget that high level players will have to develop techniques and ways to play against it. You will see great things done with this at high level. Both using it, and what players do against it. You got to give it time.
So upsetting to see so many alleged "intelligent esports enthusiasts" completely misunderstand how gameplay develops. Take a look at how air units worked in the early days of SC1, before moving shot was even known about. No one would ever have claimed it would evolve (one way or another) into what it did. Now Blizzard gives us a blank canvas with so much to play with and exploit and so many people are whining that it will "never be good" and its "not true esports".
People say if its not difficult than its not any good. Well ive downloaded muta maps and wraith micro maps and its not horribly difficult either. More difficult at this point than what you see in that youtube vid of the Phoenix killing the mutas in sc2, but give it time. We will still see it all play out at high level in ways that will entertain and impress.
I used to doubt SC2 because its easy to come from BW and see SC2 as a pile of shit. Its really really easy. But the more i play SC2, and the more i see people play SC2 at high level, the less doubt i have that the game is a masterpiece. It just hasnt hit its stride yet. I give Blizzard credit for even listening to us at all and making such a bold change. Do what you did in the early BW days and just play for fun and to win and eventually SC2 will be where BW is now. Quit crying about your personal definitions of micro and esports and you might actually dig the game.
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all:
- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield
Only unit we can use:
- Hydra
Problem now:
- If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die
- If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins
Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are:
a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack
Welcome to how P felt about Mutas for the entirety of this Beta.
Stalkers and Sentries are just way too slow units to reliably catch Mutas, and even if you scout the Spire in time, Z has such an incredibly easy time getting the first 5-10 Mutas up that there's no way you'll have enough Phoenixes in place to challenge them.
Finally the AIR-SUPERIORITY part in the units description fits the bill, it still gets countered by all other anti-air, but at least it rapes Mutas and gives P a viable defense besides spamming cannons or getting lots of blink stalkers which in turn just get raped by zerglings and/or hydras.
Let's not forget the 25% DPS nerf to Sentries either, being "Strong vs. Mutalisk" according to the ingame-tab-thingy anyway. Not only were they always too slow to protect your bases, now they also do a lot less damage, which would have literally left only Stalkers.
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all:
- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield
Only unit we can use:
- Hydra
Problem now:
- If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die
- P can now get Colossi and kill Z
- If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins
Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi
Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are:
a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack
- - - - -
This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi.
In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi...
Does anyone else find it deliciously ironic to see someone saying that Zerg don't have any good way to counter Protoss air except with a ground army that cannot keep up with the Phoenix and thus leaves the Zerg open to harassment?
Also if you are trying to use air units to counter Coloxen, then your air only has to be mobile enough to keep up with said Coloxen. If the Protoss wants to use his Phoenixes to defend them then he's going to have to bring them to your units.
I was more talking about how I am force to go Hydra which die to colossi... I have no way to win now. At least before with Mutas, P could get a ground army and push back... now if you go 2 phoenix i need to mass hydras and i melt to colossi...
At least before if I went 1 - 2 Mutas and forced you to go Stalkers, and then went anything else, you had colossi to back up your stalkers to kill my lings and hydras...
If T goes vikings vs me as Z I can go hydras which, and something else to fight the MM ball that accompanies
Now you go 2 phoenix then 4 colossi and I lose, I have no counter... no mutas, no corrupters, no hydras, no NP, nothing... I cannot afford to go anything but hydra because if you see me go anything but hydras you mass phoenix and beat me... if i go hydra you dont mass phoenix and go colossi and I die...
at least with every other counter, there is a unit that can compliment the ones you have to get to pull out a win...
Its hard enough fast teching to lair to defend vs w/e P puts out, now I basically have no way to win... corrupter hydra is too gas and food intensive to fight phoenix / colossi / ground army... not to mention the res tof the ground army will melt me... phoenix / colossi / zealot > me... ya not fun...
On May 07 2010 14:56 towerranger wrote: oh its something new so it must be bad!
srsly guys, wth
well, what do u expect, this is SC2, and this is the biggest hardcore SCBW community outside of korea... people are going to be critical. and rightly so, because SC2 carries the SC name, and these are the gamers that Blizzard will be relying upon to make SC2 a fantastic game.
Now you go 2 phoenix then 4 colossi and I lose, I have no counter... no mutas, no corrupters, no hydras, no NP, nothing... I cannot afford to go anything but hydra because if you see me go anything but hydras you mass phoenix and beat me... if i go hydra you dont mass phoenix and go colossi and I die...
at least with every other counter, there is a unit that can compliment the ones you have to get to pull out a win...
Its hard enough fast teching to lair to defend vs w/e P puts out, now I basically have no way to win... corrupter hydra is too gas and food intensive to fight phoenix / colossi / ground army... not to mention the res tof the ground army will melt me... phoenix / colossi / zealot > me... ya not fun...
And Phoenix + Colossus is not gas/food intensive? Just get some Corruptors, they still rape Phoenix and they rape Colossus as well, so there you go.
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all:
- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield
Only unit we can use:
- Hydra
Problem now:
- If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die
- P can now get Colossi and kill Z
- If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins
Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi
Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are:
a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack
- - - - -
This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi.
In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi...
Does anyone else find it deliciously ironic to see someone saying that Zerg don't have any good way to counter Protoss air except with a ground army that cannot keep up with the Phoenix and thus leaves the Zerg open to harassment?
Also if you are trying to use air units to counter Coloxen, then your air only has to be mobile enough to keep up with said Coloxen. If the Protoss wants to use his Phoenixes to defend them then he's going to have to bring them to your units.
I was more talking about how I am force to go Hydra which die to colossi... I have no way to win now. At least before with Mutas, P could get a ground army and push back... now if you go 2 phoenix i need to mass hydras and i melt to colossi...
At least before if I went 1 - 2 Mutas and forced you to go Stalkers, and then went anything else, you had colossi to back up your stalkers to kill my lings and hydras...
If T goes vikings vs me as Z I can go hydras which, and something else to fight the MM ball that accompanies
Now you go 2 phoenix then 4 colossi and I lose, I have no counter... no mutas, no corrupters, no hydras, no NP, nothing... I cannot afford to go anything but hydra because if you see me go anything but hydras you mass phoenix and beat me... if i go hydra you dont mass phoenix and go colossi and I die...
at least with every other counter, there is a unit that can compliment the ones you have to get to pull out a win...
Its hard enough fast teching to lair to defend vs w/e P puts out, now I basically have no way to win... corrupter hydra is too gas and food intensive to fight phoenix / colossi / ground army... not to mention the res tof the ground army will melt me... phoenix / colossi / zealot > me... ya not fun...
If a P is using Collossi, then they are definitely going to upgrade the range on them. If the P can build collossi at 300/200 and research a 200/200 upgrade I think you can handle getting an Infestor for 100/150 and a 150/150 upgrade to put you back to where it was before.
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all:
- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield
Only unit we can use:
- Hydra
Problem now:
- If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die
- P can now get Colossi and kill Z
- If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins
Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi
Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are:
a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack
- - - - -
This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi.
In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi...
Does anyone else find it deliciously ironic to see someone saying that Zerg don't have any good way to counter Protoss air except with a ground army that cannot keep up with the Phoenix and thus leaves the Zerg open to harassment?
Also if you are trying to use air units to counter Coloxen, then your air only has to be mobile enough to keep up with said Coloxen. If the Protoss wants to use his Phoenixes to defend them then he's going to have to bring them to your units.
I was more talking about how I am force to go Hydra which die to colossi... I have no way to win now. At least before with Mutas, P could get a ground army and push back... now if you go 2 phoenix i need to mass hydras and i melt to colossi...
At least before if I went 1 - 2 Mutas and forced you to go Stalkers, and then went anything else, you had colossi to back up your stalkers to kill my lings and hydras...
If T goes vikings vs me as Z I can go hydras which, and something else to fight the MM ball that accompanies
Now you go 2 phoenix then 4 colossi and I lose, I have no counter... no mutas, no corrupters, no hydras, no NP, nothing... I cannot afford to go anything but hydra because if you see me go anything but hydras you mass phoenix and beat me... if i go hydra you dont mass phoenix and go colossi and I die...
at least with every other counter, there is a unit that can compliment the ones you have to get to pull out a win...
Its hard enough fast teching to lair to defend vs w/e P puts out, now I basically have no way to win... corrupter hydra is too gas and food intensive to fight phoenix / colossi / ground army... not to mention the res tof the ground army will melt me... phoenix / colossi / zealot > me... ya not fun...
And you go on to say that Protoss might tech switch to a ground heavy army and then beat the composition you felt forced to take against the highly maneuverable air units? I'm having trouble believing that you're not intentionally crafting your posts to look exactly like a Protoss player complaining that the only counter to Mutas was to mass up Stalkers and Sentries, which were not maneuverable enough to be a solid defense against the harass and left Protoss vulnerable to the inevitable tech switch to exploit the forced Stalker/Sentry composition.
Please go on your SC2 Map editor, throw in some Pheonix's, throw in some Mutalisks, and play with the Pheonix's yourself.
It sounds ridiculous to have a move and shoot unit, however only the Mutalisk is below Pheonix range, by merely 1. without the clustering of air units while in-flight, you typically only have 1 Pheonix firing repeatedly while dancing in circles.
So yes it is a big counter to Mutalisks, as a repellent, not as a demolishing counter.
Again, please try this out on your own in the editor before stating the imbalance in the idea of the Pheonix. Mutas will still get their shots off, the only thing is that 3 Pheonix's may be able to stop 6~8 Mutalisks.
EDIT:
The video is merely a demonstration of the mechanics Pheonix's now have, if you pay close attention the 3 of the 6 Mutalisks returned to their idle position, so essentially it was 3v3, and Pheonix's counter mutas head to head anyway, but one still went in yellow health.
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all:
- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield
Only unit we can use:
- Hydra
Problem now:
- If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die
- P can now get Colossi and kill Z
- If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins
Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi
Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are:
a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack
- - - - -
This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi.
In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi...
Does anyone else find it deliciously ironic to see someone saying that Zerg don't have any good way to counter Protoss air except with a ground army that cannot keep up with the Phoenix and thus leaves the Zerg open to harassment?
Also if you are trying to use air units to counter Coloxen, then your air only has to be mobile enough to keep up with said Coloxen. If the Protoss wants to use his Phoenixes to defend them then he's going to have to bring them to your units.
I was more talking about how I am force to go Hydra which die to colossi... I have no way to win now. At least before with Mutas, P could get a ground army and push back... now if you go 2 phoenix i need to mass hydras and i melt to colossi...
At least before if I went 1 - 2 Mutas and forced you to go Stalkers, and then went anything else, you had colossi to back up your stalkers to kill my lings and hydras...
If T goes vikings vs me as Z I can go hydras which, and something else to fight the MM ball that accompanies
Now you go 2 phoenix then 4 colossi and I lose, I have no counter... no mutas, no corrupters, no hydras, no NP, nothing... I cannot afford to go anything but hydra because if you see me go anything but hydras you mass phoenix and beat me... if i go hydra you dont mass phoenix and go colossi and I die...
at least with every other counter, there is a unit that can compliment the ones you have to get to pull out a win...
Its hard enough fast teching to lair to defend vs w/e P puts out, now I basically have no way to win... corrupter hydra is too gas and food intensive to fight phoenix / colossi / ground army... not to mention the res tof the ground army will melt me... phoenix / colossi / zealot > me... ya not fun...
Are you even being serious? He makes units, you counter them, he counters yours, you counter his, its how the game works. You strategize, you adapt. That's the game your playing. You make it sound like the fact that you don't have this one army that you can always feel confident in no matter is a bad thing. You describe a situation where Protoss adapts to you, then you adapt to it. Why can't that just continue? You also make the game sound incredibly linear. Are you even playing at Platinum level?
So if I have a banshee running away from a protoss expo, (let's say I was raiding probes), then all my opponent has to do is simply move-command his phoenix in a similar direction to my banshee, and it will follow, all the while still shooting? That's nuts, o.o;
On May 07 2010 15:59 Haemonculus wrote: I'm gonna have to play around with this, wow.
So if I have a banshee running away from a protoss expo, (let's say I was raiding probes), then all my opponent has to do is simply move-command his phoenix in a similar direction to my banshee, and it will follow, all the while still shooting? That's nuts, o.o;
Technically, yea, that's what happens.
In reality, how many pheonix's do you ever see in a game even in PvZ?
To answer my own question, yes! wow. That's crazy OP.
Also, you guys should seriously play around with the new void rays! You can do CRAZY micro tricks with them. They turn on a dime and deal damage the instant their beam touches something. I am *NOT* looking forward to facing these guys in ladder T_T;
After playing/testing with the phoenixes in customs I'm not sure this mechanic is nearly as "broken" as I initially thought. The phoenix seems to decelerate slightly while doing the moving shots, and large numbers of mutalisks or vikings still don't have many issues fighting phoenix with some micro. You still have to get pretty close to mutas to fire at which point they can turn around and deal some serious damage to your units. I think this might result in some pretty intense air battles. Not to mention it makes usage of graviton beam even more fun because you don't have to stop moving lol. The one thing to make clear is that this certainly is a large buff to the phoenix, and small bunches or individual muta/viking, stand no chance of escape. To top it off, microing phoenix against mutalisks which are being controlled by another player is FAR from easy. (Then again in the hands of progamers this might be a little ridiculous).
I don't see why all these people are complaining about sc2 being too easy, when it's still in beta and there is much to be discovered. I'll be honest, I don't really know anything about sc1 but I do know that a lot of the insane micro tricks weren't discovered until way into the release of the game.... Just play and try new stuff out, the game will evolve and eventually im sure people will find out how to abuse the mechanics to do cool micro type tricks just like you could in your precious sc1.
Also, if sc2 is too easy and everyone can be the same skill level why do all the tournaments usually have the same top 8?
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all:
- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield
Only unit we can use:
- Hydra
Problem now:
- If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die
- P can now get Colossi and kill Z
- If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins
Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi
Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are:
a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack
- - - - -
This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi.
In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi...
Corruptor is actually fine against the Phoenix. Did you even test this before you typed this post? Corruptors hit Phoenixes just fine thanks to their range.
On May 07 2010 15:10 Conris wrote: If you haven't already,
Please go on your SC2 Map editor, throw in some Pheonix's, throw in some Mutalisks, and play with the Pheonix's yourself.
It sounds ridiculous to have a move and shoot unit, however only the Mutalisk is below Pheonix range, by merely 1. without the clustering of air units while in-flight, you typically only have 1 Pheonix firing repeatedly while dancing in circles.
So yes it is a big counter to Mutalisks, as a repellent, not as a demolishing counter.
Again, please try this out on your own in the editor before stating the imbalance in the idea of the Pheonix. Mutas will still get their shots off, the only thing is that 3 Pheonix's may be able to stop 6~8 Mutalisks.
EDIT:
The video is merely a demonstration of the mechanics Pheonix's now have, if you pay close attention the 3 of the 6 Mutalisks returned to their idle position, so essentially it was 3v3, and Pheonix's counter mutas head to head anyway, but one still went in yellow health.
The point isn't about balance. It's about the fact that auto-acquiring a target to attack shouldn't override a move command. That defeats the entire purpose of the "move" command. If you want to attack, you should have to click the attack button.
the biggest issue for me is also that the phoenix fires on its own now without prompting. what if you are trying to fly somewhere without triggering any attack alerts coming up for your opponent, synchronize all phoenixes to shoot at once, or simply circle some angry nerd's last building to taunt him?
consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit? otherwise, i think the mobility this patch gave the phoenix has the right idea behind it, though complete free movement throughout the entire firing animation is still questionable. please consider changes for units like the viking also!
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote: the biggest issue for me is also that the phoenix fires on its own now without prompting. what if you are trying to fly somewhere without triggering any attack alerts coming up for your opponent, synchronize all phoenixes to shoot at once, or simply circle some angry nerd's last building to taunt him?
consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit? otherwise, i think the mobility this patch gave the phoenix has the right idea behind it. please consider changes for units like the viking also!
Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. Maybe it can have a special patrol command, where it continues to move while shooting, or just leave it to the point where in will never decelerate so you can fire and go back to running away as fast as you can get the commands up.
I mean, I do like it as it is, but it still seems odd to neglect a game mechanic for one unit that isn't particularly special aside from the fact its a badass unit but seemed a bit underpowered for what it was supposed to be (unless NonY uses it).
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote: the biggest issue for me is also that the phoenix fires on its own now without prompting. what if you are trying to fly somewhere without triggering any attack alerts coming up for your opponent, synchronize all phoenixes to shoot at once, or simply circle some angry nerd's last building to taunt him?
consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit? otherwise, i think the mobility this patch gave the phoenix has the right idea behind it, though complete free movement throughout the entire firing animation is still questionable. please consider changes for units like the viking also!
Pretty much this.
That being said, it is a step in the right direction and can be improved. They essentially allow the Phoenix to fly in a different direction than its nose is pointing. It should not be too difficult to use this feature for an a-move only. Like this, you'd a-move when in range of an enemy, Phoenix turns and shoots immediately while stile flying in the original direction. Then starts to decelerate and would eventually chase the enemy unit. If you chain the a-move with an immediate move command deceleration is cancelled and Phoenix continues to move in desired direction and turns nose once attack animation is finished. That should fix it imo.
The new phoenix just seems unnatural and awkward. Animation canceling is far better... Why must blizzard insist on making this game as noob friendly as possible? Shouldn't noobs have something to aspire to, anyway? It's like the self esteem movement has found its way into starcraft. I never fully realized there was economic value in catering to inadequacy until now.
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote: consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit? otherwise, i think the mobility this patch gave the phoenix has the right idea behind it, though complete free movement throughout the entire firing animation is still questionable. please consider changes for units like the viking also!
Actually there is other units in the game that does the auto-attack while on move command. I remember one game where I was trying to sneak in a mothership into another players base to do a recall-drop and the blasted thing was just firing away all the time spamming attack-alerts long before I had a chance to get inside where I wanted to. Don't know if there are others beside the phoneix and mothership, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were.
This fix should be very simple. Make the phoenix attack, and then immediately start to decelerate to continue attacking. If a move command is issued soon enough, the phoenix does not decelerate. So why take such a weird approach? I am really confused by what blizzard has done..
Why must blizzard insist on making this game as noob friendly as possible?
Sadly, your statement is untrue.
Many players have been saying "macro is easy", "this game is nub friendly", "no micro", but time and time again the same elite gamers are conquering the game.
This game is incredibly skill dependant, and i dont see this buff changing it.
Idd give a chance for players to use this feature before making comments about it. Its not like you can just move micro the pheonix's, this move requires tons of micro and little margin of error
I'm really excited about this. The more micro is needed, the better. I don't really like units such as void rays much, too straight forward. But this, this can lead to epic moments
Nobody still has a clue how this will be used/microed in practice
Why start bitching at this point, just because its not totally the same thing as in that 1st game. Give it a few weeks at least and see what kind of micro styles emerge... Both using this unit and microing against it.
On May 07 2010 06:07 CheAse wrote: i just played a tvz with hellions... I could l just harass the roaches on the ramp until they died to go harass probes
the skill it takes to use the new phoenix is less than the skill it takes to use what would be a properly functioning air unit.
Actually I have to disagree.
The range difference is very small, and im sure against pheonix, mutalisk users are also going to dance forward and backwards as to not get flanked without getting to hit back. much like wraith vs mutalisks (where theoratically wraiths should be able to take down infinite ammounts of mutalisks, but not because of this dancing move)
In exchange, this move encourages air unit micro for both zerg and protoss, Giving much more to think about. Imagine im harrasing your mutalisks with a few pheonix's and while doing that i send all my army to your nat or 3rd, away from the mutalisks.
Lots of new things opened with this change, and im glad they did it.
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote: consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit?
Actually, all Protoss air does this. The Void Ray is slightly different than the others, but Carriers and Motherships have always attacked with just a move command.
On May 07 2010 17:41 Beyonder wrote: I'm really excited about this. The more micro is needed, the better. I don't really like units such as void rays much, too straight forward. But this, this can lead to epic moments
I just tried the phoenix and it wasn't what I expected it to be. I thought you had to click on the enemy unit for it to attack, but it is auto attacking, which sucks. It shouldn't be to hard to fix though, and it is a step in the right direction.
I'd like to politely say that people that are saying that this improvement sucks / rocks, should have more experience with it, play the new patch a little more, because these small changes affect overall play and not just the unit, which is hard to analyze just by thinking about it without any experience and they may regret their comments in the future because there were some aspects that they didn't consider when commenting.
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote: consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit?
Actually, all Protoss air does this. The Void Ray is slightly different than the others, but Carriers and Motherships have always attacked with just a move command.
Actually, the Void Ray has the same mechanic, just not with a 360 degree firing arc, while the Carrier is the different one and is much closer to BW mechanically. They need to stand still to launch their interceptors, and when changing targets or the interceptors will just go back after the previous target dies/is out of leash range. If they receive only a move command they will never engage any target and if given a move command after they are already attacking, they will not engage new targets or launch more interceptors(if they have some of them still docked), they'll just finish off the old ones and stop attacking.
On May 07 2010 06:26 FrozenArbiter wrote: Someone pointed out that it might not make sense to call patrol micro "animation cancelling". I was thinking of the ability for - say - a muta to chase a wraith without losing movement speed between shots when I heard moving shot, but some people seem to refer to their ability to snipe scourges without losing speed - ie, patrol micro.
yes thats what i want for air units in general. vikings can almost do it because of their massive range and low attack stop but this would be much better for phonix instead of this auto ai
why does the phonix even look like an airplane with wings if it flies same speed to all directions, makes 0 sense what so ever
On May 07 2010 06:27 lolreaper wrote:
On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
or u can just move in a disoriented degree by the speedofphonix-speedofhunter=newfacingdegree angle, like u did with vultures vs lings in sc1
but nazgul stop saying its a hard task, its not lol (not that other things r tho)
On May 07 2010 06:30 Polemarch wrote: Some people have commented that muta behaviour has been changed. A critical balance question is, if mutas get within range of phoenixes, can they chase them down kill them with moving-shot?
For this to happen they'd need to be able to be microed to shoot without decelerating and have at least the same speed as the phoenix.
if this is true then were halfway to a comeback of mutaharass in tvz :p
No micro is hard in a vacuum after a bit of practice. A bit different when you're trying to maintain macro, chrono boost, and move your other units at the same time.
well then explain how im able to play money on 0 while scouting all over map and microing perfectly sure i sound arrogant here but im not the only player thinking like this, the game is easy and if anything it should get harder. blizzard in patch 10 made mechanics for chrono boost and spawn larva harder (aka dumbing their engine) just to improve the game as esport so i dont see why they cant keep that up. everyone loved that change. bad players dont notice it and good players like it because its something they have to master. why cant air micro be the same by attack while hunting (click on target click on ground etc) like corsair did vs muta or wraith did in general. its great for esport and the game is far from "too difficult". blizzard should implent more ways a good player can utilize his units because the bar of perfect macro is a couple of ffs and attack move. its true accept it and lets move on
this phonix change might not actually even be noticeable in most games but it still demonstrates that blizzard dont really understand what esport is. they dont understand that the speed, execution and masterthinking was more important than strategy. just look at sc1 most games same strategies and game plans every game. who got bored? well not korea man and they were the only ones who gave esport a real chance by then
They understand it they just think their game will become an e-sports leader regardless of how difficult they make it. Stop taking them for fools. It is really sad that they think this way instead of thinking to create a better game for high level spectatorship and sports but it is what it is.
Also the Phoenix micro isn't hard I never said that, I said it's more intense than nothing. Therefor it's an improvement. It's not perfect like the micro in SC:BW but if you keep setting your hopes on that you'll be sorely disappointed every time. I for one am happy they did SOMETHING to make it more micro intensive however little it may be.
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all:
- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield
Only unit we can use:
- Hydra
Problem now:
- If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die
- P can now get Colossi and kill Z
- If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins
Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi
Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are:
a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack
- - - - -
This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi.
In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi...
Does anyone else find it deliciously ironic to see someone saying that Zerg don't have any good way to counter Protoss air except with a ground army that cannot keep up with the Phoenix and thus leaves the Zerg open to harassment?
Also if you are trying to use air units to counter Coloxen, then your air only has to be mobile enough to keep up with said Coloxen. If the Protoss wants to use his Phoenixes to defend them then he's going to have to bring them to your units.
I was more talking about how I am force to go Hydra which die to colossi... I have no way to win now. At least before with Mutas, P could get a ground army and push back... now if you go 2 phoenix i need to mass hydras and i melt to colossi...
At least before if I went 1 - 2 Mutas and forced you to go Stalkers, and then went anything else, you had colossi to back up your stalkers to kill my lings and hydras...
If T goes vikings vs me as Z I can go hydras which, and something else to fight the MM ball that accompanies
Now you go 2 phoenix then 4 colossi and I lose, I have no counter... no mutas, no corrupters, no hydras, no NP, nothing... I cannot afford to go anything but hydra because if you see me go anything but hydras you mass phoenix and beat me... if i go hydra you dont mass phoenix and go colossi and I die...
at least with every other counter, there is a unit that can compliment the ones you have to get to pull out a win...
Its hard enough fast teching to lair to defend vs w/e P puts out, now I basically have no way to win... corrupter hydra is too gas and food intensive to fight phoenix / colossi / ground army... not to mention the res tof the ground army will melt me... phoenix / colossi / zealot > me... ya not fun...
Are you even being serious? He makes units, you counter them, he counters yours, you counter his, its how the game works. You strategize, you adapt. That's the game your playing. You make it sound like the fact that you don't have this one army that you can always feel confident in no matter is a bad thing. You describe a situation where Protoss adapts to you, then you adapt to it. Why can't that just continue? You also make the game sound incredibly linear. Are you even playing at Platinum level?
If he is, then he clearly got there through nothing but cheese and all in's. He has two of these threads going now, honestly it sounds like he doesn't even play the game and is just spouting nonsense. I believe at this point, anyone who has actually played realizes the change was a slight improvement to the phoenix and that is about it.
Actually, if you think about how a spacecraft moves and this is in theory a spacecraft. It looks rather neat. It would be nice if they threw some thrusters on the front of it to make it a little more realistic, but overall livable.
That said, they could just as easily redo the attack animation to have it come out the tail as well.
Just reduce the firing arc, so they have to face their target in order to shoot(like Void Rays), this will add more micro, while the the model should be reversed anyway, the wings should be at the back, it would look a lot better.
On May 07 2010 21:23 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: They understand it they just think their game will become an e-sports leader regardless of how difficult they make it.
And this I believe is also the case, with the HUGE fanbase they have SC2 will still be pretty much the biggest game around even if ALL bw players refused to play it (which of course will not happen). I find almost flattering that they are actually listening to the things we say at all, even if they failed a bit with the execution this time .
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote: consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit?
Actually, all Protoss air does this. The Void Ray is slightly different than the others, but Carriers and Motherships have always attacked with just a move command.
Actually, the Void Ray has the same mechanic, just not with a 360 degree firing arc, while the Carrier is the different one and is much closer to BW mechanically. They need to stand still to launch their interceptors, and when changing targets or the interceptors will just go back after the previous target dies/is out of leash range. If they receive only a move command they will never engage any target and if given a move command after they are already attacking, they will not engage new targets or launch more interceptors(if they have some of them still docked), they'll just finish off the old ones and stop attacking.
I love how you say the Void Ray is the same and then describe how it's slightly different, which I said already. You are right about the Carrier, though. With the interceptor launch upgrade, microing Carriers is pretty fun. In fact, the Phoenix should be functioning much closer to how the Carrier does and I think most would be happy.
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote: consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit?
Actually, all Protoss air does this. The Void Ray is slightly different than the others, but Carriers and Motherships have always attacked with just a move command.
Actually, the Void Ray has the same mechanic, just not with a 360 degree firing arc, while the Carrier is the different one and is much closer to BW mechanically. They need to stand still to launch their interceptors, and when changing targets or the interceptors will just go back after the previous target dies/is out of leash range. If they receive only a move command they will never engage any target and if given a move command after they are already attacking, they will not engage new targets or launch more interceptors(if they have some of them still docked), they'll just finish off the old ones and stop attacking.
I love how you say the Void Ray is the same and then describe how it's slightly different, which I said already. You are right about the Carrier, though. With the interceptor launch upgrade, microing Carriers is pretty fun. In fact, the Phoenix should be functioning much closer to how the Carrier does and I think most would be happy.
No, I did not say the Void Ray is the same, I said it has the same mechanic and mechanically only the Carrier is different, since it can't acquire targets, while moving and requires an attack(or hold, e.t.c.) order.
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote: consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit?
Actually, all Protoss air does this. The Void Ray is slightly different than the others, but Carriers and Motherships have always attacked with just a move command.
Void rays seem to only auto-target units in a certain arc in front of them. This could make for some interesting micro.
Edit: I also played around with carriers a bunch. Once the interceptors are launched, the carrier can be microed around quite well, and a good screen away from the target. The interceptors will continue to pound on the target.
The only problem though is that as soon as you cross some invisible range limit, the interceptors will all fly back to the carrier and refuse to do anything else until they've docked, and need to be re-launched.
Still, leaves me with a little more hope for carrier micro!
After reading through the shooting while moving topic, i have to agree that bringing that to more units would only improve gameplay and realism... there's no reason why many units specially air units, should have to stop/decelerate to attack. SC1 was better in that regard... and bringing that to SC2 i believe would only make this more fun to play and at the same time harder to master... which supposedly is blizzard's motto.
i played one of those dumb turtle games on twilight fortress today.. phoenix rocked the casbah:
mutas for breakfast, banshees formed a light brunch, vikings a lil' heavier lunch and later on some corruptors as dessert: a little tough but a handful of HTs (feedback) acted as digestif. in between there was always room for some ground unit snacks.
granted, at some point a had a slight upgrade advantage, but i can't say i had that many phoenixes.
the fun starts at ~6 phoenixes and at around ~12 everybody can basically give up trying to counter them - although great fun, i'm not sure if thats a good thing....
If they implement this (but having to click partol+stop instead of just right-clicking like crazy) to all air units it will be sooooo bad ass, but like it is right now with phoenixes its just no way it can stay in-game. I'd imagine someone with strong multitasking (Bisu?) could basically do this with Phoenixes at the same time as macroing in his base and microing a ground army in battle.
I played SC:BW, WC3, even DotA and many other rts. I want to say that Animation Canceling is just an abuse of game engine bugs in all those games. I can't understand why people want bugs to be introduced in SC2. You wanted Phoenix buff VS Mutas - here it is. The solution is questionable of course, but is definitely much better than introducing a bug on purpose.
On May 07 2010 21:58 Dekoth wrote: Actually, if you think about how a spacecraft moves and this is in theory a spacecraft. It looks rather neat. It would be nice if they threw some thrusters on the front of it to make it a little more realistic, but overall livable.
That said, they could just as easily redo the attack animation to have it come out the tail as well.
Actually to me it seems like the trails coming off their thrusters does change direction when they are flying backwards.
Power of the phoenix remains relatively unchanged. It is simply capable of doing its job for at least a little while now. Explain how this is way too powerful?
It's too powerful because it can take on a unit that costs half and can be produced 3x+ faster in 2v1? Sounds pretty balanced to me...
On May 08 2010 01:01 Dekoth wrote: Power of the phoenix remains relatively unchanged. It is simply capable of doing its job for at least a little while now. Explain how this is way too powerful?
It's too powerful because it can take on a unit that costs half and can be produced 3x+ faster in 2v1? Sounds pretty balanced to me...
Did you see that new video? It seems to be able to take out almost an infinite number of them
On May 08 2010 00:35 goszar wrote: I played SC:BW, WC3, even DotA and many other rts. I want to say that Animation Canceling is just an abuse of game engine bugs in all those games. I can't understand why people want bugs to be introduced in SC2. You wanted Phoenix buff VS Mutas - here it is. The solution is questionable of course, but is definitely much better than introducing a bug on purpose.
Animation canceling wasn't a bug. It was about how the unit behaved acceleration/deceleration wise. Making a Zergling invisible and glitching probes through buildings, that's bugs.
On May 08 2010 01:01 Dekoth wrote: Power of the phoenix remains relatively unchanged. It is simply capable of doing its job for at least a little while now. Explain how this is way too powerful?
It's too powerful because it can take on a unit that costs half and can be produced 3x+ faster in 2v1? Sounds pretty balanced to me...
Did you see that new video? It seems to be able to take out almost an infinite number of them
They were not microed.
You have to put hings into perspective. The zerg will have lots of mutas against few phoenixes early on. The zerg could split his mutas and try to micro back, or just ignore the phoenixes and try to do as much damage as possible to the protoss base.
On May 08 2010 01:01 Dekoth wrote: Power of the phoenix remains relatively unchanged. It is simply capable of doing its job for at least a little while now. Explain how this is way too powerful?
It's too powerful because it can take on a unit that costs half and can be produced 3x+ faster in 2v1? Sounds pretty balanced to me...
Did you see that new video? It seems to be able to take out almost an infinite number of them
They were not microed.
You have to put hings into perspective. The zerg will have lots of mutas against few phoenixes early on. The zerg could split his mutas and try to micro back, or just ignore the phoenixes and try to do as much damage as possible to the protoss base.
Lol? Yeah, if the toss doesn't pressure at all, the zerg will have "lots of mutas". That also means the toss is bad. You need to pressure zerg early game to keep their drone count low. And don't tell me you're talking about 1 hatch mutas, because that's just terrible. Esp against toss with their 2 AA units on gate.
Its really disappointing to see how many people will watch a video or read a post about how Phoenixes were changed and base their opinion on that. You need to actually play the game before you says its imbalanced or bad or something like that. Something in practice is a hell of a lot different than in theory.
I want to see some videos of in GAME footage, against a REAL opponent before we start making these wild claims. I haven't had this be a negative issue at all in any game I've played since the patch, but I suck, and don't play at a high level.
However, some dude killing mutas in a UMS map against a crappy AI opponent means all of about nothing in terms of game balance.
If you *know* its broken, lets see some game footage of you abusing it or being abused. Against another human.
On May 08 2010 01:48 deadalnix wrote: You can just, by 3 clic on the minimap destroy a whole pack of mutalisk.
This should require more attention, in order to make it difficult to do and macroing at the same time.
So let me get this straight. If I queue up 3 commands to move on the minimap with my 5 Phoenixes, you are going to tell your Mutalisks to follow my Phoenixes and allow them to be kited? And then you'll continue making Mutalisks, despite them now being countered? If so, you're a moron. You people aren't realizing that this patch was intended to make Phoenix hard counter Mutalisks. But what happens when Corrupters come into the mix? Even without their debuff, Corrupters will still beat Phoenix. With their debuff it gets even worse. You really need to play the game before posting and not just throwing out these wild theory-craft claims.
This whole Phoenix thing is no different than Reapers kiting zealots and Zerglings or stalkers kiting Roaches. Its a unit that counters another unit. It kills that unit. Its not imbalanced, its just how RTS games work. You guys are just freaking out over the fact that there is a new counter to a unit that wasn't there before. But Phoenixes can be countered. Corrupters do a great job at it. And a lot of times you'll get Corrupters anyway to deal with colossi so I really have no idea what you are complaining about.
On May 08 2010 01:01 Dekoth wrote: Power of the phoenix remains relatively unchanged. It is simply capable of doing its job for at least a little while now. Explain how this is way too powerful?
It's too powerful because it can take on a unit that costs half and can be produced 3x+ faster in 2v1? Sounds pretty balanced to me...
Did you see that new video? It seems to be able to take out almost an infinite number of them
Have you actually played the game? Evidently not..I used them in nearly all my matches yesterday and you most certainly cannot kill an infinite number of them.
I think that this phoenix change makes sense to blizzard since it makes micro easy, and playing a game should be as easy as possible. Adding handicaps lite non automining makes it thougher to play, but doesnt really make much sense gameplay and funwise. But, if no other air units can be microed it makes no sense at all. especially with that new video. I mean what the hell you can just do runbys and totally slaughter muta, theyre TOTALLY useless against phoenixes now. If phoenixes can micro so should muta be able to, and hellions. the other units works quite well microwise, especially reaper.
Corruptors do counter Phoenix if they ever go head to head, due to the health and armor they possess. Before I point out the futility of this, I'll throw out a few facts.
Phoenix counter Vikings pretty effectively now in small numbers due to their speed and Corruptors are solidly beaten by Vikings due to the range. However, it would be noteworthy to point out that Corruptors do the lowest amount of damage over time amongst the three Air-to-Air fighters not considering modifiers, and Anti-Massive isn't the most prevalent enemy excepting Collosus. (Unless you compare it agaisnt a 2 Armor advantage, in which the Viking still soundly beats it). Vikings can harass the economy and buildings by landing. This is a mild threat. Phoenix can harass the economy in a much more effective manner, provided they aren't limited by energy. Corruptors pose no economic threat unless it is ZvZ.
Thus, there is no reason to really hunt down Corruptors while there can be a significant threat from Phoenix and mild threat from Vikings. Phoenix can simply avoid all encounters due to their impressive speed. They can beat Vikings cost for cost, thus this can be an effective method of use. Why chase after Corruptors however? There is no real need. You can effectively dance outside of any pack of Corruptors range and harass the Zerg economy ruthlessly with minor micro investment. Mutalisks to are a much better counter to a Phoenix then Corruptors, simply due to the Phoenix speed, and Mutalisks get trashed by Phoenix in their current state.
Phoenix trash Mutalisk, beat up Vikings in small numbers, and can avoid Corruptors while harassing the economy of any player. You must rely on Spore Colonies, Hydralisk, Missile Turrets, Thors, and Marines to counter Phoenix. Mass Vikings can work due to their range as well. This might be intentional, who knows. I know I'm not going to be building any air without ground cover against a Protoss that has access to the Phoenix.
On May 07 2010 06:58 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: I have to say... it looks utterly bizarre. It's a buff to Protoss against muta (which I think was probably needed) but it is one hell of a strange buff.
I actually really like this change. It was a creative way to buff the phoenix against a specific unit without affecting other relationships in the game too much.
I really like this change - it allows for micro, and makes P air much much stronger than units without adding splash damage or changing the stats. It allows for much more flexibility in midgame for P as well, and gives it slightly more mobility as well.
So when are the muta micro mechanics and banshee/viking micro mechanics being forced in?
I actually believed someone when they said it requires skill to do. I was thoroughly dissapointed when all it was was simply attacking ONCE and then moving around all day....not to mention with a stupid RANGE INDICATOR TOO.
lol I love this change, it was super fun yesterday countering mutalisks with phoenix nor was it super easy-mode to do.
Decent muta micro will still let you get shots in on the phoenix and they go down quickly as you know. It's also cool you can have phoenix chasing the mutas and have the mutas turn around really quick to get shots in before the player can react. Very tense.
actually as a side effect to this I think phoenix might be too strong against hydras now... My opponent tech-switched to hydras, i had about 8 phoenix.. he had probably 12 hydras... I just hit 'g' on each hydra and phoenix on their way to grav beam were shooting hydras that had already been lifted, (and phoenix do about 20 damage to hydras). And of course units don't shoot while grav'd so i pretty much took out all his ground-based aa and only lost 1-2 phoenix. Part of it was the gravbeam fixes... as phoenix ai had been bugged before... But this new moving shot is huge.
Obviously phoenix are countered by 1 aa tower or corruptors, so I don't think they're imbalanced, but i think they're a super viable opening against zerg now.
I haven't tried out a viking vs a phoenix... But in raw numbers viking does 20 damage against a phoenix and phoenix has 120h/60s, so 9 shots. Phoenix does 10 damage to viking and v's have 125 hp so 13 shots. Phoenix shoot faster of course, and vikings will get a shot off long before phoenix comes into range.
Regardless of who wins.... Vikings cost 150/75 and phoenix cost 150/100 so phoenix probably should win. Vikings can land, phoenix can not.
Corruptors only counter Phoenix if they force a head to head confrontation. Hard to do when they are so much slower then them. Hydralisks or Mutalisks are sadly the best counter, and Mutalisks get slaughtered and Hydralisks need to be in ample numbers to prevent being control via lift. Protoss doesn't need to kill Corruptors, Zerg needs to kill the Phoenix.
Spore Colonies are what you need to stick to in order to combat Phoenix harassment as Zerg while building up Hydralisk numbers. If you are going to keep air, you need to support them with Hydra.
On May 07 2010 10:06 BladeRunner wrote: instead of the community making a game competitive that probably was never intended to be (or do Smash fans argue otherwise??)
No, Brawl was never intended by Sakurai to be competitive. He did everything he could to prevent it from being competitive and he did a damn good job. So what you say is definitely true.
On May 07 2010 10:08 beetlelisk wrote: I don't think being forced to click Patrol behind your units and move away ASAP is that much of spamming. Phoenixes are still faster so they can use their +1range against Mutas and upgrading their attack to +1 would also still matter. Now it doesn't, all you have to know is if there are Infestor or Hydras and where are they, that is all. Even rush maps have enough space to kite mutas in a perfectly free way.
On May 07 2010 10:15 diehilde wrote: just tested 10 muta vs 5 phoenix in custom game against some ppl... u wont kill a single phoenix. I guess phoenix really hard counters muta now, unfortunately to a point where it almost makes no sense building them anymore.
@beetlelisk: Phoenix are faster, but due to the fact that they used to decelerate before attacking, kiting didn't really work out all that well. One range just wasn't enough with the game mechanics the way they are. Being able to literally move while shooting is extremely powerful and, as I said in the post you quoted (and supported a bit by diehilde's post), Phoenix could potentially use a damage nerf now, as they got their much needed buff...just in a somewhat funky way.
I know they didn't work and what I'm saying is to make this kind of micro work and not necessarily in the exact way (flyers not slowing down at all with perfect micro) it works in BW - even if the way moving shot works in BW is not copied it can still be implemented and work in similar way with slowing down noticeable. Phoenixes are faster so it's not such a big deal, maybe they would fire (a bit) slower while kiting.
To use a slightly childish, yet relevant counterpoint to both of you: Zealots can be kited by Marines, Marauders, Reapers, Roaches, etc, etc and, at best, Charge simply prevents you from taking zero damage in the process. Does that mean it makes no sense not to build Zealots and/or research Charge? Keep in mind that I don't necessarily disagree completely, but that I'm much too hesitant to call any imbalance, especially this early.
You need to make up to 2 orders for each shot to do that, with Phoenix you make any only when you want to change direction they are going to. Also when you surround with your Zealots, enemy units can't just walk past them.
On May 08 2010 04:02 Ayestes wrote: Corruptors only counter Phoenix if they force a head to head confrontation. Hard to do when they are so much slower then them. Hydralisks or Mutalisks are sadly the best counter, and Mutalisks get slaughtered and Hydralisks need to be in ample numbers to prevent being control via lift. Protoss doesn't need to kill Corruptors, Zerg needs to kill the Phoenix.
Corrupters are the same speed as mutas now. So they are clearly the better option.
Have you played? Preferably both as Zerg and Protoss? Putting aside you not reading even part of OP.
I actually did read the O.P, and yes I play random quite a bit. To say anything, 1 or 2 days after the patch is non-sense, it's a new patch, strategies will have to change. If in about a week or two Zerg still has a huge problem, then it's a concern.
Have you played? Preferably both as Zerg and Protoss? Putting aside you not reading even part of OP.
I actually did read the O.P, and yes I play random quite a bit. To say anything, 1 or 2 days after the patch is non-sense, it's a new patch, strategies will have to change. If in about a week or two Zerg still has a huge problem, then it's a concern.
I guessed you did not read it because OP istelf says in bold it's not about balance really but about some micro possibilities out. If, on this page, DeCoup says Corruptors are as fast as Mutas than it's not that hard to counter Phoenix so there may be no huge problems. Except there is going to be less micro which this thread is about man edit even though it makes Phoenixes in PvZ a lot more viable.
I'm a protoss player and I've played 20+ games using the phoenix, and I absolutely hate it. It's the worst update yet. With the new phoenixes, it is simulating micro without you actually microing. Every time I use it I just move it around, not even attack+move, just move. There's no way a Zerg player however many mutas can do anything. They are forced to build corrupters. There's no micro in any of the battles. I like raping a huge crapload of mutas through microing, not from doing nothing. If Blizzard wants to buff phoenixes, then give them less acceleration/deceleration period, or throw in one extra damage or something. All they did was remove all skill required to phoenix micro.
As has been pointed out, corruptors really can't do much because they cannot force a confrontation (speed) and therefore toss will never lose a phoenix if he doesn't want to.
ZvP is hydraroach. You can come up with all the blah blah you want, say it'll be different in a few weeks, I say BS. Z air vP is now terrible. Gonna need to duke it out in those forcefields...
edit: and tbh, Phoenix is now pretty much ultraballer in PvZ, even against hydras if they're not in large groups.
Phoenix harassing vs OLs and fighting mutas works excellently in the early game, but once mid-late game comes around they become less and less useful, as Zerg gets so many more hydras and throws spore crawlers around the OL areas.
The change is fine so far, I haven't played any games PvZ where I can say I won specifically because of Phoenix attack/harass.
On May 08 2010 04:02 Ayestes wrote: Corruptors only counter Phoenix if they force a head to head confrontation. Hard to do when they are so much slower then them. Hydralisks or Mutalisks are sadly the best counter, and Mutalisks get slaughtered and Hydralisks need to be in ample numbers to prevent being control via lift. Protoss doesn't need to kill Corruptors, Zerg needs to kill the Phoenix.
Corrupters are the same speed as mutas now. So they are clearly the better option.
No, they don't. 2.95 vs. 3.75. They still can't keep up with Mutalisk swarms, especially if you use them to try and help anti-harass from Phoenix. You need a ground presence starting with Spore Colonies. Small numbers of Hydralisks and Queens will simply be lifted and dismantled.
Irregardless, I don't consider Mutalisks a good counter to Phoenix by any means. However in terms of anti-harassment their speed makes them better then Corruptors stopping them, which is disappointing.
The speed buff helps them out speed Vikings- not catch Phoenix or keep up with Mutalisk swarms.
The overall point is, the role of a Corruptor has not changed against Protoss. It counters Collosus and the trio of Massive Air units. It has gained a little ground against the Viking, but the range on the Viking causes it to win in most cases and it is midly cheaper.
To stop any Phoenix harassment, you need Spore Colonies into moderate numbers of Hydralisks. A Fungal Growth would work as well, if you manage to pull it off.
Have you played? Preferably both as Zerg and Protoss? Putting aside you not reading even part of OP.
I actually did read the O.P, and yes I play random quite a bit. To say anything, 1 or 2 days after the patch is non-sense, it's a new patch, strategies will have to change. If in about a week or two Zerg still has a huge problem, then it's a concern.
I guessed you did not read it because OP istelf says in bold it's not about balance really but about some micro possibilities out. If, on this page, DeCoup says Corruptors are as fast as Mutas than it's not that hard to counter Phoenix so there may be no huge problems. Except there is going to be less micro which this thread is about man edit even though it makes Phoenixes in PvZ a lot more viable.
Sorry I did not clarify, I'm not really talking about the OP, talking to all the people who are going crazy already because of the change, I for one think something will definitely be changed because I think they got may have gotten the wrong idea of what moving shot was, albeit it is something way out of the ordinary in the starcraft genre so it'd be interesting either way.
People need to chill out about how this is destroying micro or doesn't require micro, etc. etc. It's a new ability that a unit can have, deal with it. If phoenix are OP they can always nerf the range or damage or whatever, but I doubt it will be necessary.
EDIT: Also, I doubt that blizzard misunderstood what people meant by moving shot. More likely they just thought that giving the phoenix its moving shot would be a cool addition to the game, and perhaps the idea was inspired by people talking about "moving shot."
I think, as far as the PvZ matchup is concerned, that we will quickly find out you can't have a unit that vastly surpasses mutas, never has to engage corruptors AND has a graviton beam sitting at 50 energy.
If good P's want to help, please do abuse the phoenix as much as you can so we can get this over with.
the thing i have the biggest problem with is the fact that it looks like the toss player has about 9 hands pulling off this insane micro move with the pheonix when really it takes about 3 apm. it is so insanely similar to red alert 3 were it rewards not microing, because the ai is already doing everything for you. was this really the goal of blizzard? when im a spectator i just laugh at how goofy this unit looks and behaves in comparison to every other unit, it really takes away from the game.
They should just make it like dragoons where you have to stop for around a quarter of a second to shoot. If I could dragoon micro by just moving I would be loling all the way to the bank, but it wouldn't be much fun and it wouldn't feel very rewarding.
On May 08 2010 11:05 Stopdroproll wrote: Phoenix only hard counter Mutalisks really.
This. Since every air unit aside from the mutalisk outranges the phenix this fancy moving shot is pointless vs them. And do not overlook the fact that sentries have been nerf and one muta now kills one sentry.
This is one of the best design decisions so far in SC2. Next they need to extend this mechanic to other units, not necessarily allowing them to fire while moving, but to be able to stop and fire on their own as often as possible while continuing to move toward a chosen destination between shots. They could, for example, easily make this "shoot and move" the meaning of "Patrol", which is a pretty worthless movement command as it stands.
People have got to stop whining about animation cancelling. It's an RTS, not an arcade game. You're supposed to give simple commands to your units, and then they're supposed to carry them out to the limits of their capabilities. They're not supposed to gain new abilities like firing on the move when and only when you're actively controlling them with a high APM.
If nothing else, achieving moving shot through animation cancelling makes the game extremely lag sensitive, which introduces too much inconsistency and luck-factor into internet play.
Starcraft 2 is not Starcraft. It's not about slavishly reproducing the bugs and unanticipated mechanical exploits that dominated Starcraft play and made it effectively a different game than the people at Blizzard intended to construct. It's a modern game for the modern market.
The competitive Starcraft scene showed us a much better, more exciting, more dynamic game than the way Starcraft plays at low skill levels. If Blizzard is smart, they're trying to enable that kind of gameplay for low-skilled players, rather than keeping casual players so bogged down by the mechanics of accomplishing simple things that they have no attention to spare for things like strategy.
Fun and interesting skill are not about mindless click chores to accomplish things that the game could do fine without arbitrarily requiring you to press buttons. Nobody is impressed by your ability to alternately press two buttons. Somebody who invests his time in developing such chores to the level of automatic reflex is naturally going to be looked down on as a nerd, which is the real reason for the general failure of e-sports to be taken seriously when things like competitive chess and even poker are respected: most of the "skill" involved is purely mechanical (not in an admirable athletic way, but in operating what is basically mundane office equipment), and it's a little sad that anyone would invest their time in developing it.
E-sports are going to remain a laughable little niche until some games come out where victory is based on abilities that people can actually respect, with no ridiculous prerequisites such as having the carpal-tunnel resistance of a teenage boy. "Mouse athletics" impress no one.
Games need efficient interfaces, not deliberately inefficient ones, or the skill requirements become so arbitrary and artificial that nobody will respect them.
This is a step in the right direction for Starcraft 2, and for the future of e-sports.
Yo i dont know where you come from but actually alot of very good poker players now came from sc:bw. Thinking while having a high apm and a very high awareness and feel is exactly what you need in bw and poker. If sc2 comes anywhere close to poker or bw it would be pretty good.
People have got to stop whining about animation cancelling. It's an RTS, not an arcade game. You're supposed to give simple commands to your units, and then they're supposed to carry them out to the limits of their capabilities. They're not supposed to gain new abilities like firing on the move when and only when you're actively controlling them with a high APM.
Maybe we can program an IA and look at it play play the game instead of us.
I would rather have top players spend their APM on executing multiple strategic maneuvers simultaneously (i.e. controlling more armies while macroing new ones) than on exploiting micro-intensive BW-style engine bugs.
People have got to stop whining about animation cancelling. It's an RTS, not an arcade game. You're supposed to give simple commands to your units, and then they're supposed to carry them out to the limits of their capabilities. They're not supposed to gain new abilities like firing on the move when and only when you're actively controlling them with a high APM.
Maybe we can program an IA and look at it play play the game instead of us.
Why do people always insist on using bad slippery slope arguments on both sides of this discussion?
On May 09 2010 00:22 TheDna wrote: Yo i dont know where you come from but actually alot of very good poker players now came from sc:bw. Thinking while having a high apm and a very high awareness and feel is exactly what you need in bw and poker. If sc2 comes anywhere close to poker or bw it would be pretty good.
There are many reasons to explain that, one of which could be that those players invested too much on gaming, didn't take a degree in something usefull and are now bound to make money somehow. Gaming is totally useless for work purposes. People that were playing 8 h per day when they should be studying will have a harder time than your average young adult when their parents' money stops coming in.
I'm not so sure whether a game like StarCraft can sport the depth to make up for the changes to advocate, Funchucks. Really, the question is: Can there be a diversity in valuable strategies when mechanical skill as a factor ceases to exist? And then: Will that strategies be something we adore; do we associate the crazy micro we see going on on the screen with the players or will we not care if units do it by themselves?
Point being, StarCraft is units shooting at units. In chess or poker, you can win even if your "firepower" is inferior. Should or is this in StarCraft being achieved by micro or by things like "strategy"? That it should be achieved, is something we can all certainly agree on.
In Sc1, balance between builds is being achieved by the skill it takes to execute them well. Should 9pool always just beat 12hatch because that way, "strategy" is rewarded, or should Jaedong be able to micro his Zerglings better than anyone else and still come out victorious? Would Sair/Rvr see play in every game if it wouldn't be so damn hard to pull off? 2fac does rarely see play in Korean leagues these days, because it's a "bad strategical decision". Yet sometimes, someone will go for it because of the mindgames involved and because he thinks that he has got the micro to pull it off. Is this a good or a bad thing? Should he always lose, because he made a bad strategical decision?
I'm not sure on this, which is where all the question marks come from. To me, it seems questionable, whether something as complex yet as simple as a video game could make players shine without requiring mechanics. Bear in mind, all the "strategic games" you mentioned are turn based and (therefor) differ from StarCraft significantly. To me, it seems like the analogy between chess and a small scale micro battle is the better analogy than that between chess and a full match of StarCraft.
Which one between mi/acroing and strategy should be more rewarded is debatable. My opinion is this. As funchuck said being a good strategist is much more respected than a good microer. Micro is almost only practice. There's much less thinking involved. What's the point of being able to kill x units with only y? grats you are a fast mouser. Might as well go on a contest to see who has the fastest reaction time and call it a day. Though I hardly find impressive something you could put a monkey do 10x better/faster.
On the other hand, being able to create smart strategies, use the units wisely with good timing, flank the opponent, knowing to adapt a strategy according to the opponent and create a new one on the fly, attack on more fronts with small numbers, hide units, manipulate what the oponent thinks you're doing, etc and that, for me, is much more impressive.
On May 08 2010 23:01 Funchucks wrote: This is one of the best design decisions so far in SC2. Next they need to extend this mechanic to other units, not necessarily allowing them to fire while moving, but to be able to stop and fire on their own as often as possible while continuing to move toward a chosen destination between shots. They could, for example, easily make this "shoot and move" the meaning of "Patrol", which is a pretty worthless movement command as it stands.
People have got to stop whining about animation cancelling. It's an RTS, not an arcade game. You're supposed to give simple commands to your units, and then they're supposed to carry them out to the limits of their capabilities. They're not supposed to gain new abilities like firing on the move when and only when you're actively controlling them with a high APM.
If nothing else, achieving moving shot through animation cancelling makes the game extremely lag sensitive, which introduces too much inconsistency and luck-factor into internet play.
Starcraft 2 is not Starcraft. It's not about slavishly reproducing the bugs and unanticipated mechanical exploits that dominated Starcraft play and made it effectively a different game than the people at Blizzard intended to construct. It's a modern game for the modern market.
The competitive Starcraft scene showed us a much better, more exciting, more dynamic game than the way Starcraft plays at low skill levels. If Blizzard is smart, they're trying to enable that kind of gameplay for low-skilled players, rather than keeping casual players so bogged down by the mechanics of accomplishing simple things that they have no attention to spare for things like strategy.
Fun and interesting skill are not about mindless click chores to accomplish things that the game could do fine without arbitrarily requiring you to press buttons. Nobody is impressed by your ability to alternately press two buttons. Somebody who invests his time in developing such chores to the level of automatic reflex is naturally going to be looked down on as a nerd, which is the real reason for the general failure of e-sports to be taken seriously when things like competitive chess and even poker are respected: most of the "skill" involved is purely mechanical (not in an admirable athletic way, but in operating what is basically mundane office equipment), and it's a little sad that anyone would invest their time in developing it.
E-sports are going to remain a laughable little niche until some games come out where victory is based on abilities that people can actually respect, with no ridiculous prerequisites such as having the carpal-tunnel resistance of a teenage boy. "Mouse athletics" impress no one.
Games need efficient interfaces, not deliberately inefficient ones, or the skill requirements become so arbitrary and artificial that nobody will respect them.
This is a step in the right direction for Starcraft 2, and for the future of e-sports.
Quality Post.
And as mentioned a thousand times, Sc 2 is different and it HAS TO BE different to Sc 1. Oh they removed the classical moving shot? Whatever, then people find new ways to freak about. You still have to micro, pick red units to the back, use all the abilities.
Starcraft 2 is still in the beta status. Was sc 1 SO MUCH BETTER in its better status back then? You are at the end of a 10 year old game with expansion packs, so ofc it's perfectly balanced. Balance takes time and much consideration. So ridiculous when the kiddies begin crying after each little change or when they say sc 2 will never be an e-sports game.
(Besides who gives a fuck about e-sports? Check any serious gamer who was in a good league for ~ 2-3 years, nearly all of them retired. You cannot keep up such a high level forever. And in the end you wasted a ton of time for nothing but a "name" in the kiddie scene, that will be forgotton 2 years later. gj :D)
On May 09 2010 06:08 Sandrosuperstar wrote: How does corruptor manage against the phoenix now?
They rape them even harder..
I like the phoenix change..Instead of just a moving you have something else against mutas and in my games and tests it doesnt make as big difference as it seemed.. Many mutas vs many phoenix you may lose fewer than before with more micro..but its not as godly as corsair would be..
But vs everything else its still better to a move and stay in a fight because they have 4 range and if you dance your phoenixes those in the back wont shoot but you will still be shot by longer range units.. So this is just a buff against mutas but nothing else.. but its a cool change..makes it more responsive and fun..
On May 08 2010 13:30 PJA wrote: People need to chill out about how this is destroying micro or doesn't require micro, etc. etc. It's a new ability that a unit can have, deal with it. If phoenix are OP they can always nerf the range or damage or whatever, but I doubt it will be necessary.
EDIT: Also, I doubt that blizzard misunderstood what people meant by moving shot. More likely they just thought that giving the phoenix its moving shot would be a cool addition to the game, and perhaps the idea was inspired by people talking about "moving shot."
More like this is adding micro.. Before you engaged and watched the fight.. now you can really do something with them.. If they gave them splash instead that would be less micro..
On May 08 2010 23:01 Funchucks wrote: E-sports are going to remain a laughable little niche until some games come out where victory is based on abilities that people can actually respect, with no ridiculous prerequisites such as having the carpal-tunnel resistance of a teenage boy. "Mouse athletics" impress no one.
What people respect and what they don't respect is constantly changing. Poker certainly wasn't respected at first. Do you know how much the acceptable fashion has changed?
And why should athletic skills be respected more than any other skill? This mindset is from way in the past.
There are many reasons to explain that, one of which could be that those players invested too much on gaming, didn't take a degree in something usefull and are now bound to make money somehow. Gaming is totally useless for work purposes. People that were playing 8 h per day when they should be studying will have a harder time than your average young adult when their parents' money stops coming in.
This quote is hilarious. So much hate towards anyone not doing the "right" thing which apparently is studying. You should relax a bit, and not be as angry at people who succeed by doing something you perceive as easy.
Poker is incredibly popular, so claiming that people who were good in Starcraft start playing Poker and succeed at it because they are unable to succeed at anything else makes no sense.
EPT
Chinese Triangle
