On May 07 2010 08:38 Lollersauce wrote: Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
Phoenix couldn't kill overlords and gravity beam Drones in Patch 10?
They sure could, but they would die to mutas before hitting critical mass. Not the case now. One less option and I don't see new ones opening up, since corruptor doesn't help anything AtG.
So you're complaining because you can't hit "Hatchery -> Mx2173987" and win anymore? That you actually have to change your strategy to win? That maybe Mutas aren't meant to be entirely anti-Protoss (which you should have realized with the Stalker buff vs Light in the first place)?
Other people adjust to their builds, so you can too. It's not too hard, just click a different hotkey :D
On May 07 2010 08:38 Lollersauce wrote: Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
Phoenix couldn't kill overlords and gravity beam Drones in Patch 10?
They sure could, but they would die to mutas before hitting critical mass. Not the case now. One less option and I don't see new ones opening up, since corruptor doesn't help anything AtG.
I'm not saying Zerg can't defend themselves or the matchup is imba... I'm saying the already small amount of options is dwindling down some more.
U can corr/mutalisk early game to take care of phoenixes, and then use the corrs later to morph into brood lords, provides some incentive for that. This would be good as you have already claimed air superiority vs the phoenixes.
it looks unnatural .... practically any air unit with a range < 6 gets raped, while units with air attack < 6 cannot defend. Also, take into consideration that now, players can select how many units they want at once. It's not like in SC:BW when only JaeDong could dance with 2 groups of mutas, now every1 can select any number of units in a group. Moving shot can become so overpowered now comparing to sc1. Waiting for patch 12 to fix all of this
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
Lol youre so ridiculously oblivious. You're belittling muta micro and you don't even realize it. It's not as simple as pressing H in between clicks, but the TIMING it takes to do it. (Hence the TIMING which muta micro required you to time THREE seperate actions, a move, H, and another move, flawlessly, rather than a single move as is with phoenixes)
Nvm, I forgot that everyone can do this super easily and has muta micro on par with jaedong and julyzerg.
And you still don't understand my post. Lol, hopeless at this point I guess. That's okay, keep doing what you do.
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
I don't get why you are happy about this change since you said that you like the fact that there (according to you) were much more focus on macro in SC 2 in the "Oh micro, were art thou?" thread.
Aside from that, this is a good change. Why you like it though, is beyond me, becasue that goes against what you have said earlier. You wanted no change, remember? Do you just want to contradict all the long time SC fans on this forum? Because that's the impression that your posts are giving me.
ok so i just tested the phoenix myself, and i did NOT know you could literally just right click and they attack automatically, holy hell, blizzard is fucking retarded. i was literally spamming right click AHAHHAHA
On May 07 2010 08:18 Lollersauce wrote: I'm just wondering how you're presently supposed to ZvP against a P who gets just enough defense/sentries to wall and go air. Apparently Blizzard thinks we are supposed to counter void rays with infestor NP (lol, let's tally up the cost/time investments someone) and investing into corruptors who are AtA only just to not get raped by OL hunting and gravbeams sounds like a totally winning plan to me, considering phoenixes double up as AtG.
Basically all I'm seeing is fast hydra den... zzz.
Huh? The same way you did before.. multiple queens while getting lair then hydra? Mass Phoenix from a single base will be the same as it was.
Well that's basically one less option (mutas) against a toss even just getting his cy core. Considering how weak our options are on ground already thanks to FF everywhere, zerg is just basically pigeonholed into even fewer choices. Not like there was many to begin with. I guess the point is, did toss really need a counter to mutas with blinking stalkers and sentries at t1? Even void rays weren't bad.
Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do? All of the other races don't rely on a single unit, and this one even comes from the same tech tree. Really, just adjust from going mass muta to muta-muta-muta-corruptor-muta-muta-muta-corruptor, or something.
Oh, and Void Rays are very expensive, require micro, and are inefficient against large numbers ^_^
I don't think it's about making more units types - it's great if this also matters edit:+ Show Spoiler +
and use of Corrupters after there is no Pheonix threat is underrated a lot, there are still edit2: Colossi LOL, Warp Prisms warping in units and Observers to take care of without trying to find them in P army and focus fire them with Hydras
and it does matter in BW also (Scourge) but what many people see here is making Phoenix VS Muta fights very one sided up to the point it's impossible for mutas to win It takes away options players have and dynamism from spectator's point of view - it looks as if it's very hard for mutas to do anything with not as much micro from Protoss player required.
It's good if Phoenixes miroed well demolish Mutas but it's not as impressive if they do this just flying backwards >_<
On May 07 2010 08:38 Lollersauce wrote: Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
Phoenix couldn't kill overlords and gravity beam Drones in Patch 10?
They sure could, but they would die to mutas before hitting critical mass. Not the case now. One less option and I don't see new ones opening up, since corruptor doesn't help anything AtG.
So you're complaining because you can't hit "Hatchery -> Mx2173987" and win anymore? That you actually have to change your strategy to win? That maybe Mutas aren't meant to be entirely anti-Protoss (which you should have realized with the Stalker buff vs Light in the first place)?
Other people adjust to their builds, so you can too. It's not too hard, just click a different hotkey :D
I'm not sure you've realized or not by now, but Zerg don't actually have that much of a unit selection to begin with. Against a toss with a few sentries, the only really viable combat units are roaches WITH full upgrades (burrow to avoid getting raped by FF), and hydras. Unless of course you manage to somehow tech to greater spire and get broodlords.
Mutas were a third unit you could use in this MU to actually do some damage once FF came into play. And even then they were hardly the "mass and a-move" type.
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
I don't get why you are happy about this change since you said that you like the fact that there (according to you) were much more focus on macro in SC 2 in the "Oh micro, were art thou?" thread.
Aside from that, this is a good change. Why you like it though, is beyond me, becasue that goes against what you have said earlier. You wanted no change, remember? Do you just want to contradict all the long time SC fans on this forum? Because that's the impression that your posts are giving me.
I never said I wanted no change; I simply said that I believed macro was more important than micro. Phoenix being weak and needing to be buffed is a separate matter altogether, which I'm happy that Phoenixes are no longer sub-par relative to Mutas compared to other hard counters in the game.
i can see how one would want to hold sc2 high on a general scale. it's indeed the second best rts we have and the only one that will enhance and progress rts esports in the near future. but i don't understand how this can be an excuse to not implement major MICRO GENERATING elements like proper animation cancelling. i don't see how this game wants to be any different from c&c generals.
i can only again compare this to fighting games. what made many of those games great on the higher levels of play was the possibility to cancel certain frames to issue even more powerful combos. if you didn't have this option of cancelling the animation you would have been limited to your normal attacks and normal combos without any opportunity to break out of this. it required a surplus of ability to control the game (let's call it micro) and provided for deeper and more varied ways to exploit game mechanics. that's what we want i guess and that's what all the fuss with the moving shot was about, it's not about the moving shot - as FA already stated - blizz confused milestones with end of the road. (END OF THE ROAD NOT UNITS THAT CAN SHOOT WHILE MOVING BUT UNITS THAT NEED TO BE MICROED EXPERTLY TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN).
i fully support sc2 because i know that it's not a bad game by any means but if it's not a very basic engine problem with moving shot then the premise of letting making units DANCE hasn't been understood by blizz and that's that.
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
I don't get why you are happy about this change since you said that you like the fact that there (according to you) were much more focus on macro in SC 2 in the "Oh micro, were art thou?" thread.
Aside from that, this is a good change. Why you like it though, is beyond me, becasue that goes against what you have said earlier. You wanted no change, remember? Do you just want to contradict all the long time SC fans on this forum? Because that's the impression that your posts are giving me.
I never said I wanted no change; I simply said that I believed macro was more important than micro. Phoenix being weak and needing to be buffed is a separate matter altogether, which I'm happy that Phoenixes are no longer sub-par relative to Mutas compared to other hard counters in the game.
Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Please read the OP again if you have the time, as I've been following the thread and am disheartened at all the chaos. So I tried to be more specific in my editedOP and hopefully will help a more clearer, sophisticated discussion come to fruition.
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
I don't get why you are happy about this change since you said that you like the fact that there (according to you) were much more focus on macro in SC 2 in the "Oh micro, were art thou?" thread.
Aside from that, this is a good change. Why you like it though, is beyond me, becasue that goes against what you have said earlier. You wanted no change, remember? Do you just want to contradict all the long time SC fans on this forum? Because that's the impression that your posts are giving me.
I never said I wanted no change; I simply said that I believed macro was more important than micro. Phoenix being weak and needing to be buffed is a separate matter altogether, which I'm happy that Phoenixes are no longer sub-par relative to Mutas compared to other hard counters in the game.
Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because I don't agree with the statement, "this doesn't require any micro"
It's a bit micro-intensive for my own tastes, and I think something like giving it more HP and reducing the build cost or something like that could have worked, but it's not an entire shift in focus between macro and micro, and helps a balance problem. I'm fine with that (although don't think I'm giddy with excitement, as you seem to think I am)
On May 07 2010 08:55 KungKras wrote: Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because it does?
I don't play Protoss, but I'm more inclined to believe Nazgul, who's actually spent the time testing this in game than a bunch of people who haven't even played since the patch went live. And by all counts Nazgul says this requires micro. It's not game-changing, but I suspect Blizzard intentionally chose the Phoenix as a unit with which to test the water because other units would have larger balance ramifications. If Nazgul, one of the bigger pessimists about the mechanical requirement in SC2, believes this is a step in the right direction, then I'm inclined to believe his opinion.
All the people who feel like micro is being completely eliminated, why don't you take all of this new 'free time' you have and using it to do things that used to not be worth it but are still better than nothing. Like single unit management and better focus targeting in large encounters where a-move is pretty norm. The wc3 players making the transition to sc2 are doing this and doing it pretty well because they're used to that style from their game, and sc2 does seem to have some wc3 type elements to it with the attack animation style and whatnot. There is potential for a TON of micro still, and I'd bet that any top pro BW player will be worrying about what is now the best usage of their micro time instead of crying about what they can no longer do.
Oh and ya my post count is low as fuck so I'm probably going to get blasted for this ^_^
You people are ridiculous. Just go play BW if it's that big of a deal to you. Or better yet, make your own SC2 mod when it's released and do whatever the fuck you want with it. Jesus.
Why is it that all users on competitive forums are total whine-bags whenever something changes?
On May 07 2010 08:55 KungKras wrote: Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because it does?
I don't play Protoss, but I'm more inclined to believe Nazgul, who's actually spent the time testing this in game than a bunch of people who haven't even played since the patch went live. And by all counts Nazgul says this requires micro. It's not game-changing, but I suspect Blizzard intentionally chose the Phoenix as a unit with which to test the water because other units would have larger balance ramifications. If Nazgul, one of the bigger pessimists about the mechanical requirement in SC2, believes this is a step in the right direction, then I'm inclined to believe his opinion.
I belive Nazgul too (wich you can see in the first post that I made in the thread). I really really like this new phoenix macro. I was just asking Zeke that because I found it odd for him to like the change based on his previous posts. This patch is awesome and people that are complaining should at least see the glass as half full.
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
I don't get why you are happy about this change since you said that you like the fact that there (according to you) were much more focus on macro in SC 2 in the "Oh micro, were art thou?" thread.
Aside from that, this is a good change. Why you like it though, is beyond me, becasue that goes against what you have said earlier. You wanted no change, remember? Do you just want to contradict all the long time SC fans on this forum? Because that's the impression that your posts are giving me.
I never said I wanted no change; I simply said that I believed macro was more important than micro. Phoenix being weak and needing to be buffed is a separate matter altogether, which I'm happy that Phoenixes are no longer sub-par relative to Mutas compared to other hard counters in the game.
Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because I don't agree with the statement, "this doesn't require any micro"
It's a bit micro-intensive for my own tastes, and I think something like giving it more HP and reducing the build cost or something like that could have worked, but it's not an entire shift in focus between macro and micro, and helps a balance problem. I'm fine with that (although don't think I'm giddy with excitement, as you seem to think I am)
On May 07 2010 08:55 KungKras wrote: Then why are you trying so hard to prove that this change requires micro?
Because it does?
I don't play Protoss, but I'm more inclined to believe Nazgul, who's actually spent the time testing this in game than a bunch of people who haven't even played since the patch went live. And by all counts Nazgul says this requires micro. It's not game-changing, but I suspect Blizzard intentionally chose the Phoenix as a unit with which to test the water because other units would have larger balance ramifications. If Nazgul, one of the bigger pessimists about the mechanical requirement in SC2, believes this is a step in the right direction, then I'm inclined to believe his opinion.
I think he believed YOU HAVE TO spam move. You don't
EPT
