EPTFungal Growth here, being able to flank in BW even though you can tech to Dark Swarm and Plague as Zerg and to Storm and Stasis as Protoss.
Patch 11-Phoenix:Did Blizz Fix Anything? - Page 14
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
Fungal Growth here, being able to flank in BW even though you can tech to Dark Swarm and Plague as Zerg and to Storm and Stasis as Protoss. | ||
|
Lollersauce
United States357 Posts
| ||
|
Raislin
United States144 Posts
Anywho, the point is we're not playing SC:BW 2.0 here, meaning a remake of SC:BW with new units. NonY has shown time and again that Phoenix are quite effective, but of all the matches I watched, he seemed to use Phoenix least in PvZ. The one time I did see him do it -- against Moonglade in the HDH Invitational -- he lost almost all of his Pheonix to Mutalisks. Phoenix stand at or slightly above even against Vikings, a unit they don't even get bonus damage for. Why should Mutas do so much better? The solution could not have possibly been to add more damage to the Phoenix because the damage on it is already insane. Edit: Actually, as was posted by the OP of the thread that originally brought up the moving shot, with a mechanic like this we could actually see a damage nerf to the Phoenix and still keep its utility. They have that 1 extra range, but the problem was they couldn't make efficient use of it. That was the clue to solving the problem. We may not have gotten the result we expected, but I don't see how spamming right click involves any less time investment than a few extra keyboard presses. I do realize that less mechanical skill is involved, but I'm pretty sure it was the multi-tasking that was truly difficult in BW. On a side-note: Every Protoss air unit now has this mechanic of attacking while moving. Kinda cool to have such consistency, even if they Phoenix is the only one that literally flies backwards (although, when is the Mothership ever not flying backwards?  ). Cheers! | ||
|
RumZ
United States956 Posts
| ||
|
Rkie
United States1278 Posts
| ||
|
beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
While this IS going to be entertaining that's still less options to play and watch. | ||
|
BladeRunner
United States407 Posts
On May 07 2010 09:49 Raislin wrote: This discussion is getting eerily similar to the Melee vs Brawl discussion that occurred after Brawl was initially released. What people had to eventually come to realize was that Brawl was not Melee 2.0. Of course, the difference is that Brawl is about as bad as you get if looking for a competitive game. Oh yeah, the player base ended up making a modified version of Brawl that allows much more competitive play. The difference there is that SC2 allows for such mods more natively than Brawl did. Another huge asset we have is that the designers are actually working very hard to make this a balanced competitive game (even if some of us disagree with them), instead of the community making a game competitive that probably was never intended to be (or do Smash fans argue otherwise??) I went to a melee tournament and it blew my mind how that game could so competitive, there are so many tricks and techniques the designers probably never even considered. SC2 clearly has a large number of people working only on balance and competitive design. | ||
|
a176
Canada6688 Posts
SC2 clearly has a large number of people working only on balance and competitive design. Yes. Everyone here at tl.net | ||
|
beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On May 07 2010 09:49 Raislin wrote: The solution could not have possibly been to add more damage to the Phoenix because the damage on it is already insane. Edit: Actually, as was posted by the OP of the thread that originally brought up the moving shot, with a mechanic like this we could actually see a damage nerf to the Phoenix and still keep its utility. They have that 1 extra range, but the problem was they couldn't make efficient use of it. That was the clue to solving the problem. We may not have gotten the result we expected, but I don't see how spamming right click involves any less time investment than a few extra keyboard presses. I do realize that less mechanical skill is involved, but I'm pretty sure it was the multi-tasking that was truly difficult in BW. Balancing it in any other way than changing damage values doesn't have to mean putting turns in the very certain degrees like in  Chinese Triangle back.I don't think being forced to click Patrol behind your units and move away ASAP is that much of spamming. Phoenixes are still faster so they can use their +1range against Mutas and upgrading their attack to +1 would also still matter. Now it doesn't, all you have to know is if there are Infestor or Hydras and where are they, that is all. Even rush maps have enough space to kite mutas in a perfectly free way. | ||
|
Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
hahahaha. | ||
|
diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
| ||
|
Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On May 07 2010 09:26 KungKras wrote: That's hardly optimal micro that is shown in the video. A good player could do much better than that. You should not be able to auto-acquire and attack targets when issued a move command. Ever. | ||
|
NeoScout
United States103 Posts
| ||
|
baeracaed
United States604 Posts
Nice! lol  | ||
|
Disastorm
United States922 Posts
On May 07 2010 09:49 Raislin wrote: Oh yeah, the player base ended up making a modified version of Brawl that allows much more competitive play. No one actually used it though, not even the tournaments, at least not back when I played it. | ||
|
Koffiegast
Netherlands346 Posts
On May 07 2010 10:15 diehilde wrote: just tested 10 muta vs 5 phoenix in custom game against some ppl... u wont kill a single phoenix. I guess phoenix really hard counters muta now, unfortunately to a point where it almost makes no sense building them anymore. I already made them rarely vs P, as pretty much all of them get a ton of sentry/stalkers and they will just wait till they got their colossus to push out and in that case mutas dont really do a great job of defending. And while theyre waiting, harassing isnt really that effective.. | ||
|
beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On May 07 2010 10:20 NeoScout wrote: yeah I hadn't realized now all protoss flyiers can shoot while moving, but I still think the phoenix looks awkward when doing this, it should shoot from its back while still moving forward Well at least Void Rays need their speed upgrade to be able to kite but cost of Fleet Beacon just for that is pretty huge. Carriers can be not just some undiscovered tech path and possible but not (yet?) seen addition... but just pointless when Phoenixes in gas can do the same job T_T. Well I guess this means Protoss air doesn't have to dominate no matter what. no speed for Rays -> no Corrupter kiting... >_< edit: jesus what am I even trying to discuss here, I can feel my brain melting and leaking through my ears gnight | ||
|
PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On May 07 2010 06:10 mOnion wrote: yup. LOTS of micro. + Show Spoiler + right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click right-click but P-H is the ultimate in micro? | ||
|
Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
You might think it's pointless, but people seem to be obsessed with the fact that moving should never attack as well. It also shortens the timing window in which you can avoid damage completely (if only by .001 of a second) | ||
|
PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
lmao they still lose to every capital ship, they lose to corrupters, they maybe break even with vikings | ||
| ||
