EPTPatch 11-Phoenix:Did Blizz Fix Anything? - Page 16
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foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
And somebody started to point this out but didn't spell it out... now Protoss have a new "thing" associated with their race. Moving air units that keep shooting. Carriers always had this since SC1 vanilla, and so now all Protoss air have it in one form or another. I thinkg it works as a "thing". | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On May 07 2010 10:53 Orpheus wrote: ^ THIS*10000 Sometimes I wonder if Blizzard knows what "micro" means. Goddammit. Ugh. they dont. all the micro that was available in sc1 was by a pure fluke and was not intentional at all. in sc2 there trying to intentionally form/improve micro and failing hard at it. sc1 became a competitive esport purely by a fluke and flaws in the design of the game that was never intentional and blizz was to lazy to patch/fix all those flaws/bugs/glitches/etc that made sc1 so competitive. there basically designing there game based on flaws from the original. and this new phoenix is the result of there failure in doing such a retarded thing. | ||
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MercerX
United States32 Posts
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Dekoth
United States527 Posts
Hard to say, I used them in most of my matchups this evening and have mixed feelings. It still feels like they are fighting an uphill battle in any form of a real fight. It also feels like even going dual stargates I struggle to keep up with a zerg massing muta. However they seem to kill far more efficiently and snipe overlords very quick as well. So while I tend to lean to stalkers blinking to deal with muta, the phoenix does "Feel" more useful. Of course the basic problem of if Z tech switches I am stuck with a ton of basically useless air, but that is another argument. | ||
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IndecisivePenguin
United States771 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out? I think this completely sums up how I feel. People were feeling like SC2 was boring because there was less micro and more firepower>firepower battles. Now we have something to micro. If it ends up being imba, include attack/patrol commands that need to be used in order to execute this. I am liking the change. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
Honestly, even though the moving shot "micro" is extremely easy to execute, it's still going to require attention and some micro. Simply shift-queuing won't work because that would require you to have some sort of clairvoyance to know where your opponent will be moving with their mutas. The whole point of having moving shots is to increase the amount of micro opportunities and to allow for skill to be greater than mere unit stats. This does just that. The noob who just shift-queues his phoenix to fly in a circle will never achieve the results a proficient player can achieve by paying attention to his phoenixes and actually controlling and micro-ing them. TLDR: Is it oversimplified? Yes, definitely (it's so much easier from SCBW it makes me lol). Does it "fix" the phoenix/micro situation? I think so, yes. | ||
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield Only unit we can use: - Hydra Problem now: - If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die - P can now get Colossi and kill Z - If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are: a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack - - - - - This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi. In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi... | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
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Hassohappa
United States3 Posts
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all: - Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield Only unit we can use: - Hydra Problem now: - If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die - P can now get Colossi and kill Z - If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are: a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack - - - - - This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi. In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi... Does anyone else find it deliciously ironic to see someone saying that Zerg don't have any good way to counter Protoss air except with a ground army that cannot keep up with the Phoenix and thus leaves the Zerg open to harassment? Also if you are trying to use air units to counter Coloxen, then your air only has to be mobile enough to keep up with said Coloxen. If the Protoss wants to use his Phoenixes to defend them then he's going to have to bring them to your units. | ||
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Mellotron
United States329 Posts
The people here who are crying forget that when both players are skilled, and when both players are aware of how this "trick" works, it no longer matters if its executed by clicking A or simply right clicking. You cant really take your eyes off your group of Phoenix. And you can just let them do whatever they want. Watch the video. Half of the time only 1 Phoenix is firing and the other two are simply moving around. Eventually someone will be like "hey if i do it a particular way, i can keep all the Phoenix facing forward and get max DPS" etc etc. And then you start to get your Jaedongs and your Flashs etc. Dont forget that high level players will have to develop techniques and ways to play against it. You will see great things done with this at high level. Both using it, and what players do against it. You got to give it time. So upsetting to see so many alleged "intelligent esports enthusiasts" completely misunderstand how gameplay develops. Take a look at how air units worked in the early days of SC1, before moving shot was even known about. No one would ever have claimed it would evolve (one way or another) into what it did. Now Blizzard gives us a blank canvas with so much to play with and exploit and so many people are whining that it will "never be good" and its "not true esports". People say if its not difficult than its not any good. Well ive downloaded muta maps and wraith micro maps and its not horribly difficult either. More difficult at this point than what you see in that youtube vid of the Phoenix killing the mutas in sc2, but give it time. We will still see it all play out at high level in ways that will entertain and impress. I used to doubt SC2 because its easy to come from BW and see SC2 as a pile of shit. Its really really easy. But the more i play SC2, and the more i see people play SC2 at high level, the less doubt i have that the game is a masterpiece. It just hasnt hit its stride yet. I give Blizzard credit for even listening to us at all and making such a bold change. Do what you did in the early BW days and just play for fun and to win and eventually SC2 will be where BW is now. Quit crying about your personal definitions of micro and esports and you might actually dig the game. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On May 07 2010 14:44 Mellotron wrote: The OP that talked about the benefits of micro stated that with micro tricks a smaller number of units could still choose to engage a larger one, relying on tactical movement to accomplish a task rather than numbers. Blizzard gave that, just not in the same exact way it worked in BW. The people here who are crying forget that when both players are skilled, and when both players are aware of how this "trick" works, it no longer matters if its executed by clicking A or simply right clicking. You cant really take your eyes off your group of Phoenix. And you can just let them do whatever they want. Watch the video. Half of the time only 1 Phoenix is firing and the other two are simply moving around. Eventually someone will be like "hey if i do it a particular way, i can keep all the Phoenix facing forward and get max DPS" etc etc. And then you start to get your Jaedongs and your Flashs etc. Dont forget that high level players will have to develop techniques and ways to play against it. You will see great things done with this at high level. Both using it, and what players do against it. You got to give it time. So upsetting to see so many alleged "intelligent esports enthusiasts" completely misunderstand how gameplay develops. Take a look at how air units worked in the early days of SC1, before moving shot was even known about. No one would ever have claimed it would evolve (one way or another) into what it did. Now Blizzard gives us a blank canvas with so much to play with and exploit and so many people are whining that it will "never be good" and its "not true esports". People say if its not difficult than its not any good. Well ive downloaded muta maps and wraith micro maps and its not horribly difficult either. More difficult at this point than what you see in that youtube vid of the Phoenix killing the mutas in sc2, but give it time. We will still see it all play out at high level in ways that will entertain and impress. I used to doubt SC2 because its easy to come from BW and see SC2 as a pile of shit. Its really really easy. But the more i play SC2, and the more i see people play SC2 at high level, the less doubt i have that the game is a masterpiece. It just hasnt hit its stride yet. I give Blizzard credit for even listening to us at all and making such a bold change. Do what you did in the early BW days and just play for fun and to win and eventually SC2 will be where BW is now. Quit crying about your personal definitions of micro and esports and you might actually dig the game. +1 | ||
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splcer
United States166 Posts
On May 07 2010 06:17 Bosu wrote: It might be too easy, but I think it looks fucking awesome. same i think its awesome but it is pretty easy but more fun then how it used to be | ||
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Zaul
17 Posts
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all: - Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield Only unit we can use: - Hydra Problem now: - If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die - If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are: a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack Welcome to how P felt about Mutas for the entirety of this Beta. Stalkers and Sentries are just way too slow units to reliably catch Mutas, and even if you scout the Spire in time, Z has such an incredibly easy time getting the first 5-10 Mutas up that there's no way you'll have enough Phoenixes in place to challenge them. Finally the AIR-SUPERIORITY part in the units description fits the bill, it still gets countered by all other anti-air, but at least it rapes Mutas and gives P a viable defense besides spamming cannons or getting lots of blink stalkers which in turn just get raped by zerglings and/or hydras. Let's not forget the 25% DPS nerf to Sentries either, being "Strong vs. Mutalisk" according to the ingame-tab-thingy anyway. Not only were they always too slow to protect your bases, now they also do a lot less damage, which would have literally left only Stalkers. See how it plays out before you complain. | ||
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
On May 07 2010 14:43 Hassohappa wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all: - Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield Only unit we can use: - Hydra Problem now: - If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die - P can now get Colossi and kill Z - If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are: a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack - - - - - This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi. In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi... Does anyone else find it deliciously ironic to see someone saying that Zerg don't have any good way to counter Protoss air except with a ground army that cannot keep up with the Phoenix and thus leaves the Zerg open to harassment? Also if you are trying to use air units to counter Coloxen, then your air only has to be mobile enough to keep up with said Coloxen. If the Protoss wants to use his Phoenixes to defend them then he's going to have to bring them to your units. I was more talking about how I am force to go Hydra which die to colossi... I have no way to win now. At least before with Mutas, P could get a ground army and push back... now if you go 2 phoenix i need to mass hydras and i melt to colossi... At least before if I went 1 - 2 Mutas and forced you to go Stalkers, and then went anything else, you had colossi to back up your stalkers to kill my lings and hydras... If T goes vikings vs me as Z I can go hydras which, and something else to fight the MM ball that accompanies Now you go 2 phoenix then 4 colossi and I lose, I have no counter... no mutas, no corrupters, no hydras, no NP, nothing... I cannot afford to go anything but hydra because if you see me go anything but hydras you mass phoenix and beat me... if i go hydra you dont mass phoenix and go colossi and I die... at least with every other counter, there is a unit that can compliment the ones you have to get to pull out a win... Its hard enough fast teching to lair to defend vs w/e P puts out, now I basically have no way to win... corrupter hydra is too gas and food intensive to fight phoenix / colossi / ground army... not to mention the res tof the ground army will melt me... phoenix / colossi / zealot > me... ya not fun... | ||
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towerranger
Austria134 Posts
srsly guys, wth | ||
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Wings
United States999 Posts
On May 07 2010 14:56 towerranger wrote: oh its something new so it must be bad! srsly guys, wth well, what do u expect, this is SC2, and this is the biggest hardcore SCBW community outside of korea... people are going to be critical. and rightly so, because SC2 carries the SC name, and these are the gamers that Blizzard will be relying upon to make SC2 a fantastic game. | ||
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Zaul
17 Posts
On May 07 2010 14:54 Insanious wrote: Now you go 2 phoenix then 4 colossi and I lose, I have no counter... no mutas, no corrupters, no hydras, no NP, nothing... I cannot afford to go anything but hydra because if you see me go anything but hydras you mass phoenix and beat me... if i go hydra you dont mass phoenix and go colossi and I die... at least with every other counter, there is a unit that can compliment the ones you have to get to pull out a win... Its hard enough fast teching to lair to defend vs w/e P puts out, now I basically have no way to win... corrupter hydra is too gas and food intensive to fight phoenix / colossi / ground army... not to mention the res tof the ground army will melt me... phoenix / colossi / zealot > me... ya not fun... And Phoenix + Colossus is not gas/food intensive? Just get some Corruptors, they still rape Phoenix and they rape Colossus as well, so there you go. | ||
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BlackHat
United States264 Posts
On May 07 2010 14:54 Insanious wrote: I was more talking about how I am force to go Hydra which die to colossi... I have no way to win now. At least before with Mutas, P could get a ground army and push back... now if you go 2 phoenix i need to mass hydras and i melt to colossi... At least before if I went 1 - 2 Mutas and forced you to go Stalkers, and then went anything else, you had colossi to back up your stalkers to kill my lings and hydras... If T goes vikings vs me as Z I can go hydras which, and something else to fight the MM ball that accompanies Now you go 2 phoenix then 4 colossi and I lose, I have no counter... no mutas, no corrupters, no hydras, no NP, nothing... I cannot afford to go anything but hydra because if you see me go anything but hydras you mass phoenix and beat me... if i go hydra you dont mass phoenix and go colossi and I die... at least with every other counter, there is a unit that can compliment the ones you have to get to pull out a win... Its hard enough fast teching to lair to defend vs w/e P puts out, now I basically have no way to win... corrupter hydra is too gas and food intensive to fight phoenix / colossi / ground army... not to mention the res tof the ground army will melt me... phoenix / colossi / zealot > me... ya not fun... If a P is using Collossi, then they are definitely going to upgrade the range on them. If the P can build collossi at 300/200 and research a 200/200 upgrade I think you can handle getting an Infestor for 100/150 and a 150/150 upgrade to put you back to where it was before. | ||
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Hassohappa
United States3 Posts
On May 07 2010 14:54 Insanious wrote: I was more talking about how I am force to go Hydra which die to colossi... I have no way to win now. At least before with Mutas, P could get a ground army and push back... now if you go 2 phoenix i need to mass hydras and i melt to colossi... At least before if I went 1 - 2 Mutas and forced you to go Stalkers, and then went anything else, you had colossi to back up your stalkers to kill my lings and hydras... If T goes vikings vs me as Z I can go hydras which, and something else to fight the MM ball that accompanies Now you go 2 phoenix then 4 colossi and I lose, I have no counter... no mutas, no corrupters, no hydras, no NP, nothing... I cannot afford to go anything but hydra because if you see me go anything but hydras you mass phoenix and beat me... if i go hydra you dont mass phoenix and go colossi and I die... at least with every other counter, there is a unit that can compliment the ones you have to get to pull out a win... Its hard enough fast teching to lair to defend vs w/e P puts out, now I basically have no way to win... corrupter hydra is too gas and food intensive to fight phoenix / colossi / ground army... not to mention the res tof the ground army will melt me... phoenix / colossi / zealot > me... ya not fun... And you go on to say that Protoss might tech switch to a ground heavy army and then beat the composition you felt forced to take against the highly maneuverable air units? I'm having trouble believing that you're not intentionally crafting your posts to look exactly like a Protoss player complaining that the only counter to Mutas was to mass up Stalkers and Sentries, which were not maneuverable enough to be a solid defense against the harass and left Protoss vulnerable to the inevitable tech switch to exploit the forced Stalker/Sentry composition. | ||
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