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Patch 11-Phoenix:Did Blizz Fix Anything? - Page 18

Forum Index > SC2 General
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cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-07 08:26:58
May 07 2010 08:24 GMT
#341
The new phoenix just seems unnatural and awkward. Animation canceling is far better... Why must blizzard insist on making this game as noob friendly as possible? Shouldn't noobs have something to aspire to, anyway? It's like the self esteem movement has found its way into starcraft. I never fully realized there was economic value in catering to inadequacy until now.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Genesis128
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway103 Posts
May 07 2010 08:32 GMT
#342
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote:
consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit? otherwise, i think the mobility this patch gave the phoenix has the right idea behind it, though complete free movement throughout the entire firing animation is still questionable. please consider changes for units like the viking also!


Actually there is other units in the game that does the auto-attack while on move command. I remember one game where I was trying to sneak in a mothership into another players base to do a recall-drop and the blasted thing was just firing away all the time spamming attack-alerts long before I had a chance to get inside where I wanted to. Don't know if there are others beside the phoneix and mothership, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-07 08:38:31
May 07 2010 08:37 GMT
#343
This fix should be very simple. Make the phoenix attack, and then immediately start to decelerate to continue attacking. If a move command is issued soon enough, the phoenix does not decelerate. So why take such a weird approach? I am really confused by what blizzard has done..
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
SturmAddict
Profile Joined October 2009
Malaysia176 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-07 09:08:14
May 07 2010 08:38 GMT
#344
Why must blizzard insist on making this game as noob friendly as possible?



Sadly, your statement is untrue.

Many players have been saying "macro is easy", "this game is nub friendly", "no micro", but time and time again the same elite gamers are conquering the game.

This game is incredibly skill dependant, and i dont see this buff changing it.


Idd give a chance for players to use this feature before making comments about it.
Its not like you can just move micro the pheonix's, this move requires tons of micro and little margin of error
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
May 07 2010 08:40 GMT
#345
the skill it takes to use the new phoenix is less than the skill it takes to use what would be a properly functioning air unit.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Beyonder
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands15103 Posts
May 07 2010 08:41 GMT
#346
I'm really excited about this. The more micro is needed, the better. I don't really like units such as void rays much, too straight forward. But this, this can lead to epic moments
Moderator
JohannesH
Profile Joined September 2009
Finland1364 Posts
May 07 2010 08:46 GMT
#347
Nobody still has a clue how this will be used/microed in practice

Why start bitching at this point, just because its not totally the same thing as in that 1st game. Give it a few weeks at least and see what kind of micro styles emerge... Both using this unit and microing against it.
If you have to ask, you don't know.
lirexbg
Profile Joined May 2010
Bulgaria3 Posts
May 07 2010 09:01 GMT
#348
On May 07 2010 06:14 NiiPPLES wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2010 06:07 CheAse wrote:
i just played a tvz with hellions... I could l just harass the roaches on the ramp until they died to go harass probes


that makes absolutely no sense


agreed.
SturmAddict
Profile Joined October 2009
Malaysia176 Posts
May 07 2010 09:28 GMT
#349
the skill it takes to use the new phoenix is less than the skill it takes to use what would be a properly functioning air unit.


Actually I have to disagree.

The range difference is very small, and im sure against pheonix, mutalisk users are also going to dance forward and backwards as to not get flanked without getting to hit back. much like wraith vs mutalisks (where theoratically wraiths should be able to take down infinite ammounts of mutalisks, but not because of this dancing move)

In exchange, this move encourages air unit micro for both zerg and protoss, Giving much more to think about. Imagine im harrasing your mutalisks with a few pheonix's and while doing that i send all my army to your nat or 3rd, away from the mutalisks.

Lots of new things opened with this change, and im glad they did it.
Raislin
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States144 Posts
May 07 2010 09:36 GMT
#350
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote:
consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit?


Actually, all Protoss air does this. The Void Ray is slightly different than the others, but Carriers and Motherships have always attacked with just a move command.
pzea469
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1520 Posts
May 07 2010 10:53 GMT
#351
im in germany right now and im completely missing the effects of this patch

but i gotta say.... phenix vid looks sooo sexy :D
Kill the Deathball
CuttyFlam
Profile Joined April 2010
Belgium523 Posts
May 07 2010 11:14 GMT
#352
On May 07 2010 17:41 Beyonder wrote:
I'm really excited about this. The more micro is needed, the better. I don't really like units such as void rays much, too straight forward. But this, this can lead to epic moments


absolulteleh!
Leave it to ................... Luck!!
MagisterMan
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Sweden525 Posts
May 07 2010 11:22 GMT
#353
I just tried the phoenix and it wasn't what I expected it to be. I thought you had to click on the enemy unit for it to attack, but it is auto attacking, which sucks. It shouldn't be to hard to fix though, and it is a step in the right direction.
Nachos?
Apolo
Profile Joined May 2010
Portugal1259 Posts
May 07 2010 11:38 GMT
#354
I'd like to politely say that people that are saying that this improvement sucks / rocks, should have more experience with it, play the new patch a little more, because these small changes affect overall play and not just the unit, which is hard to analyze just by thinking about it without any experience and they may regret their comments in the future because there were some aspects that they didn't consider when commenting.
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
May 07 2010 11:55 GMT
#355
On May 07 2010 18:36 Raislin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote:
consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit?


Actually, all Protoss air does this. The Void Ray is slightly different than the others, but Carriers and Motherships have always attacked with just a move command.


Actually, the Void Ray has the same mechanic, just not with a 360 degree firing arc, while the Carrier is the different one and is much closer to BW mechanically.
They need to stand still to launch their interceptors, and when changing targets or the interceptors will just go back after the previous target dies/is out of leash range.
If they receive only a move command they will never engage any target and if given a move command after they are already attacking, they will not engage new targets or launch more interceptors(if they have some of them still docked), they'll just finish off the old ones and stop attacking.
I'll call Nada.
MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-07 12:02:16
May 07 2010 11:59 GMT
#356
On May 07 2010 10:49 PanzerDragoon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2010 06:29 MorroW wrote:
On May 07 2010 06:26 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Someone pointed out that it might not make sense to call patrol micro "animation cancelling". I was thinking of the ability for - say - a muta to chase a wraith without losing movement speed between shots when I heard moving shot, but some people seem to refer to their ability to snipe scourges without losing speed - ie, patrol micro.

yes thats what i want for air units in general. vikings can almost do it because of their massive range and low attack stop but this would be much better for phonix instead of this auto ai

why does the phonix even look like an airplane with wings if it flies same speed to all directions, makes 0 sense what so ever

On May 07 2010 06:27 lolreaper wrote:
On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.

If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.

shift + move + move + move + move + move + move + move + move + move + move

or u can just move in a disoriented degree by the speedofphonix-speedofhunter=newfacingdegree angle, like u did with vultures vs lings in sc1

but nazgul stop saying its a hard task, its not lol (not that other things r tho)

On May 07 2010 06:30 Polemarch wrote:
Some people have commented that muta behaviour has been changed. A critical balance question is, if mutas get within range of phoenixes, can they chase them down kill them with moving-shot?

For this to happen they'd need to be able to be microed to shoot without decelerating and have at least the same speed as the phoenix.

if this is true then were halfway to a comeback of mutaharass in tvz :p

No micro is hard in a vacuum after a bit of practice. A bit different when you're trying to maintain macro, chrono boost, and move your other units at the same time.

well then explain how im able to play money on 0 while scouting all over map and microing perfectly
sure i sound arrogant here but im not the only player thinking like this, the game is easy and if anything it should get harder.
blizzard in patch 10 made mechanics for chrono boost and spawn larva harder (aka dumbing their engine) just to improve the game as esport so i dont see why they cant keep that up. everyone loved that change. bad players dont notice it and good players like it because its something they have to master. why cant air micro be the same by attack while hunting (click on target click on ground etc) like corsair did vs muta or wraith did in general. its great for esport and the game is far from "too difficult".
blizzard should implent more ways a good player can utilize his units because the bar of perfect macro is a couple of ffs and attack move. its true accept it and lets move on

this phonix change might not actually even be noticeable in most games but it still demonstrates that blizzard dont really understand what esport is. they dont understand that the speed, execution and masterthinking was more important than strategy. just look at sc1 most games same strategies and game plans every game. who got bored? well not korea man and they were the only ones who gave esport a real chance by then
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-07 12:24:55
May 07 2010 12:23 GMT
#357
They understand it they just think their game will become an e-sports leader regardless of how difficult they make it. Stop taking them for fools. It is really sad that they think this way instead of thinking to create a better game for high level spectatorship and sports but it is what it is.

Also the Phoenix micro isn't hard I never said that, I said it's more intense than nothing. Therefor it's an improvement. It's not perfect like the micro in SC:BW but if you keep setting your hopes on that you'll be sorely disappointed every time. I for one am happy they did SOMETHING to make it more micro intensive however little it may be.
Administrator
Whalecore
Profile Joined March 2009
Norway1111 Posts
May 07 2010 12:28 GMT
#358
Tested it with a friend.

3 Phoenix > 8 Muta
Playgu
Dekoth
Profile Joined March 2010
United States527 Posts
May 07 2010 12:48 GMT
#359
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 07 2010 15:37 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2010 14:54 Insanious wrote:
On May 07 2010 14:43 Hassohappa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote:
The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all:

- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg
- Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff
- Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield

Only unit we can use:

- Hydra

Problem now:

- If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die

- P can now get Colossi and kill Z

- If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins

Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi

Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are:

a) vulnerable to gravity beam
b) vulnerable to an attack
c) unable to attack

- - - - -

This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi.

In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi...


Does anyone else find it deliciously ironic to see someone saying that Zerg don't have any good way to counter Protoss air except with a ground army that cannot keep up with the Phoenix and thus leaves the Zerg open to harassment?

Also if you are trying to use air units to counter Coloxen, then your air only has to be mobile enough to keep up with said Coloxen. If the Protoss wants to use his Phoenixes to defend them then he's going to have to bring them to your units.

I was more talking about how I am force to go Hydra which die to colossi... I have no way to win now. At least before with Mutas, P could get a ground army and push back... now if you go 2 phoenix i need to mass hydras and i melt to colossi...

At least before if I went 1 - 2 Mutas and forced you to go Stalkers, and then went anything else, you had colossi to back up your stalkers to kill my lings and hydras...

If T goes vikings vs me as Z I can go hydras which, and something else to fight the MM ball that accompanies

Now you go 2 phoenix then 4 colossi and I lose, I have no counter... no mutas, no corrupters, no hydras, no NP, nothing... I cannot afford to go anything but hydra because if you see me go anything but hydras you mass phoenix and beat me... if i go hydra you dont mass phoenix and go colossi and I die...

at least with every other counter, there is a unit that can compliment the ones you have to get to pull out a win...

Its hard enough fast teching to lair to defend vs w/e P puts out, now I basically have no way to win... corrupter hydra is too gas and food intensive to fight phoenix / colossi / ground army... not to mention the res tof the ground army will melt me... phoenix / colossi / zealot > me... ya not fun...


Are you even being serious? He makes units, you counter them, he counters yours, you counter his, its how the game works. You strategize, you adapt. That's the game your playing. You make it sound like the fact that you don't have this one army that you can always feel confident in no matter is a bad thing. You describe a situation where Protoss adapts to you, then you adapt to it. Why can't that just continue? You also make the game sound incredibly linear. Are you even playing at Platinum level?


If he is, then he clearly got there through nothing but cheese and all in's. He has two of these threads going now, honestly it sounds like he doesn't even play the game and is just spouting nonsense. I believe at this point, anyone who has actually played realizes the change was a slight improvement to the phoenix and that is about it.
green.at
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Austria1459 Posts
May 07 2010 12:53 GMT
#360
I think they should fox that phoenix thing ^^
mostly because it looks very stupid how they shoot and fly backwards and stuff.

gameplay-wise it would ofc be nice to have real movingshots not that shoot-on-the-move thingy
Inputting special characters into chat should no longer cause the game to crash.
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