Please go on your SC2 Map editor, throw in some Pheonix's, throw in some Mutalisks, and play with the Pheonix's yourself.
It sounds ridiculous to have a move and shoot unit, however only the Mutalisk is below Pheonix range, by merely 1. without the clustering of air units while in-flight, you typically only have 1 Pheonix firing repeatedly while dancing in circles.
So yes it is a big counter to Mutalisks, as a repellent, not as a demolishing counter.
Again, please try this out on your own in the editor before stating the imbalance in the idea of the Pheonix. Mutas will still get their shots off, the only thing is that 3 Pheonix's may be able to stop 6~8 Mutalisks.
EDIT:
The video is merely a demonstration of the mechanics Pheonix's now have, if you pay close attention the 3 of the 6 Mutalisks returned to their idle position, so essentially it was 3v3, and Pheonix's counter mutas head to head anyway, but one still went in yellow health.
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all:
- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield
Only unit we can use:
- Hydra
Problem now:
- If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die
- P can now get Colossi and kill Z
- If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins
Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi
Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are:
a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack
- - - - -
This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi.
In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi...
Does anyone else find it deliciously ironic to see someone saying that Zerg don't have any good way to counter Protoss air except with a ground army that cannot keep up with the Phoenix and thus leaves the Zerg open to harassment?
Also if you are trying to use air units to counter Coloxen, then your air only has to be mobile enough to keep up with said Coloxen. If the Protoss wants to use his Phoenixes to defend them then he's going to have to bring them to your units.
I was more talking about how I am force to go Hydra which die to colossi... I have no way to win now. At least before with Mutas, P could get a ground army and push back... now if you go 2 phoenix i need to mass hydras and i melt to colossi...
At least before if I went 1 - 2 Mutas and forced you to go Stalkers, and then went anything else, you had colossi to back up your stalkers to kill my lings and hydras...
If T goes vikings vs me as Z I can go hydras which, and something else to fight the MM ball that accompanies
Now you go 2 phoenix then 4 colossi and I lose, I have no counter... no mutas, no corrupters, no hydras, no NP, nothing... I cannot afford to go anything but hydra because if you see me go anything but hydras you mass phoenix and beat me... if i go hydra you dont mass phoenix and go colossi and I die...
at least with every other counter, there is a unit that can compliment the ones you have to get to pull out a win...
Its hard enough fast teching to lair to defend vs w/e P puts out, now I basically have no way to win... corrupter hydra is too gas and food intensive to fight phoenix / colossi / ground army... not to mention the res tof the ground army will melt me... phoenix / colossi / zealot > me... ya not fun...
Are you even being serious? He makes units, you counter them, he counters yours, you counter his, its how the game works. You strategize, you adapt. That's the game your playing. You make it sound like the fact that you don't have this one army that you can always feel confident in no matter is a bad thing. You describe a situation where Protoss adapts to you, then you adapt to it. Why can't that just continue? You also make the game sound incredibly linear. Are you even playing at Platinum level?
So if I have a banshee running away from a protoss expo, (let's say I was raiding probes), then all my opponent has to do is simply move-command his phoenix in a similar direction to my banshee, and it will follow, all the while still shooting? That's nuts, o.o;
On May 07 2010 15:59 Haemonculus wrote: I'm gonna have to play around with this, wow.
So if I have a banshee running away from a protoss expo, (let's say I was raiding probes), then all my opponent has to do is simply move-command his phoenix in a similar direction to my banshee, and it will follow, all the while still shooting? That's nuts, o.o;
Technically, yea, that's what happens.
In reality, how many pheonix's do you ever see in a game even in PvZ?
To answer my own question, yes! wow. That's crazy OP.
Also, you guys should seriously play around with the new void rays! You can do CRAZY micro tricks with them. They turn on a dime and deal damage the instant their beam touches something. I am *NOT* looking forward to facing these guys in ladder T_T;
After playing/testing with the phoenixes in customs I'm not sure this mechanic is nearly as "broken" as I initially thought. The phoenix seems to decelerate slightly while doing the moving shots, and large numbers of mutalisks or vikings still don't have many issues fighting phoenix with some micro. You still have to get pretty close to mutas to fire at which point they can turn around and deal some serious damage to your units. I think this might result in some pretty intense air battles. Not to mention it makes usage of graviton beam even more fun because you don't have to stop moving lol. The one thing to make clear is that this certainly is a large buff to the phoenix, and small bunches or individual muta/viking, stand no chance of escape. To top it off, microing phoenix against mutalisks which are being controlled by another player is FAR from easy. (Then again in the hands of progamers this might be a little ridiculous).
I don't see why all these people are complaining about sc2 being too easy, when it's still in beta and there is much to be discovered. I'll be honest, I don't really know anything about sc1 but I do know that a lot of the insane micro tricks weren't discovered until way into the release of the game.... Just play and try new stuff out, the game will evolve and eventually im sure people will find out how to abuse the mechanics to do cool micro type tricks just like you could in your precious sc1.
Also, if sc2 is too easy and everyone can be the same skill level why do all the tournaments usually have the same top 8?
On May 07 2010 14:27 Insanious wrote: The only problem I see with this is that Zerg has no answer to the Phoenix... at all:
- Muta cannot catch Phoenix, Phoenix does bonus dmg - Corrupter cannot catch Phoenix so cannot defend your stuff - Spore crawlers and queens get less shots off when phoenix's come into your base possibly less than a single phoenix shield
Only unit we can use:
- Hydra
Problem now:
- If P gets a stargate and gets 1 - 2 phoenix then Z HAS to go Hydras. Those 2 phoenix can hunt OL all day and not die
- P can now get Colossi and kill Z
- If Z does Muta, P goes phoenix and snipes the mutas and wins
Now, Z has to go fast Hydra v P which is countered by FF + Colossi
Not to mention, if you have to park Hydras at all your expos to keep them safe from Phoenix you are:
a) vulnerable to gravity beam b) vulnerable to an attack c) unable to attack
- - - - -
This may seem like it is exactly what the phoenix should be doing, and this is great for P... The only problem is that Z has to way to get out of it, especially with the changed to Neural Parasite making it no longer a viable counter to colossi.
In conclusion, this change has made Z highly under powered compared to P, where Z has no answer to P's air units which then translates into no way to fight off colossi...
Corruptor is actually fine against the Phoenix. Did you even test this before you typed this post? Corruptors hit Phoenixes just fine thanks to their range.
On May 07 2010 15:10 Conris wrote: If you haven't already,
Please go on your SC2 Map editor, throw in some Pheonix's, throw in some Mutalisks, and play with the Pheonix's yourself.
It sounds ridiculous to have a move and shoot unit, however only the Mutalisk is below Pheonix range, by merely 1. without the clustering of air units while in-flight, you typically only have 1 Pheonix firing repeatedly while dancing in circles.
So yes it is a big counter to Mutalisks, as a repellent, not as a demolishing counter.
Again, please try this out on your own in the editor before stating the imbalance in the idea of the Pheonix. Mutas will still get their shots off, the only thing is that 3 Pheonix's may be able to stop 6~8 Mutalisks.
EDIT:
The video is merely a demonstration of the mechanics Pheonix's now have, if you pay close attention the 3 of the 6 Mutalisks returned to their idle position, so essentially it was 3v3, and Pheonix's counter mutas head to head anyway, but one still went in yellow health.
The point isn't about balance. It's about the fact that auto-acquiring a target to attack shouldn't override a move command. That defeats the entire purpose of the "move" command. If you want to attack, you should have to click the attack button.
the biggest issue for me is also that the phoenix fires on its own now without prompting. what if you are trying to fly somewhere without triggering any attack alerts coming up for your opponent, synchronize all phoenixes to shoot at once, or simply circle some angry nerd's last building to taunt him?
consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit? otherwise, i think the mobility this patch gave the phoenix has the right idea behind it, though complete free movement throughout the entire firing animation is still questionable. please consider changes for units like the viking also!
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote: the biggest issue for me is also that the phoenix fires on its own now without prompting. what if you are trying to fly somewhere without triggering any attack alerts coming up for your opponent, synchronize all phoenixes to shoot at once, or simply circle some angry nerd's last building to taunt him?
consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit? otherwise, i think the mobility this patch gave the phoenix has the right idea behind it. please consider changes for units like the viking also!
Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. Maybe it can have a special patrol command, where it continues to move while shooting, or just leave it to the point where in will never decelerate so you can fire and go back to running away as fast as you can get the commands up.
I mean, I do like it as it is, but it still seems odd to neglect a game mechanic for one unit that isn't particularly special aside from the fact its a badass unit but seemed a bit underpowered for what it was supposed to be (unless NonY uses it).
On May 07 2010 16:34 intrigue wrote: the biggest issue for me is also that the phoenix fires on its own now without prompting. what if you are trying to fly somewhere without triggering any attack alerts coming up for your opponent, synchronize all phoenixes to shoot at once, or simply circle some angry nerd's last building to taunt him?
consider, no other units in the game auto-attack while on a move command. why add potentially undesirable and contrived automation for just one single unit? otherwise, i think the mobility this patch gave the phoenix has the right idea behind it, though complete free movement throughout the entire firing animation is still questionable. please consider changes for units like the viking also!
Pretty much this.
That being said, it is a step in the right direction and can be improved. They essentially allow the Phoenix to fly in a different direction than its nose is pointing. It should not be too difficult to use this feature for an a-move only. Like this, you'd a-move when in range of an enemy, Phoenix turns and shoots immediately while stile flying in the original direction. Then starts to decelerate and would eventually chase the enemy unit. If you chain the a-move with an immediate move command deceleration is cancelled and Phoenix continues to move in desired direction and turns nose once attack animation is finished. That should fix it imo.
EPT
