On May 07 2010 09:50 Joey.rumz wrote: I feel bad for the guys that legit. wanted moving shot, saw the patch notes, tried it, and realized how 'lol' it really is. That sucks man.
On May 07 2010 06:26 FrozenArbiter wrote: Someone pointed out that it might not make sense to call patrol micro "animation cancelling". I was thinking of the ability for - say - a muta to chase a wraith without losing movement speed between shots when I heard moving shot, but some people seem to refer to their ability to snipe scourges without losing speed - ie, patrol micro.
yes thats what i want for air units in general. vikings can almost do it because of their massive range and low attack stop but this would be much better for phonix instead of this auto ai
why does the phonix even look like an airplane with wings if it flies same speed to all directions, makes 0 sense what so ever
On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
On May 07 2010 06:30 Polemarch wrote: Some people have commented that muta behaviour has been changed. A critical balance question is, if mutas get within range of phoenixes, can they chase them down kill them with moving-shot?
For this to happen they'd need to be able to be microed to shoot without decelerating and have at least the same speed as the phoenix.
if this is true then were halfway to a comeback of mutaharass in tvz :p
No micro is hard in a vacuum after a bit of practice. A bit different when you're trying to maintain macro, chrono boost, and move your other units at the same time.
On May 07 2010 06:53 decemvre wrote: Its pretty clear to me now that some blizzard employees actually read these forums so this is basically a thread dedicated to them.
Its pretty obvious that someone read Lalush's thread about the BroodWar "moving-shot". Unfortunately whoever read that post completely missunderstood what we mean by "moving-shot".
I'll try and be brief.
1. Never did we mean to say that we wanted units that could attack targets while moving (after being issued only a simple "MOVE" command).
2. The units in BroodWar that can perform "move-shot" do so as a result of being issued both the attack command and the move command very quickly. This is possible because they have short fireing animations.
As JulyZerg Demonstrates:
Please note that he is using BOTH move and attack very quickly in order to have the mutas move immediately after their fire animation thus they basically never stop and are able to perform what we mean by "moving-shot".
Units that can do this ONLY when "micro-ed propperly: Vulture, Goliath (to a lesser degree), Wraith, Mutalisk, Probes, Drones, (maybe guardians and battlecruisers i really dont know), Archon, Corsair, Scout (the scout is the best possible example of this).
What i mean by "microed properly" is being issued very fast move and attack commands so that they don't completely stop to do their fireing animation !
3. Units in BroodWar that have different attacks when being issued the "Patrol" command and not the Attack command. Patrol is basically used instead of attack while also still having the "move command" constantly being sent to the unit.
Vultures will now demonstrate the awesomeness of "Patrol Micro":
The Vulture is capable of a different kind of micro depending on weather Attack + move or Patrol + Move is issued. The turning animation for the Vulture decreaseas GREATLY when Patrol is being used. Attack + Move is used when chasing after an enemy unit while Patrol + Move is being used when being chansed by an enemy unit !!!
And now the wonder of the Valkyries: - again by using Patrol + Move instead of Attack + Move the Valkyries are able to behave completely differently. If "Attack" is used Valks are unable to move for the duration of their fireing animation.
Now, PLEASE understand that this kind of micro (yes in BroodWar it is a result of an imperfect game-engine, but just look how much fun it can be to do this...) needs to be difficult to achieve, or if not "difficult", both Attack and Move commands MUST be used in order to be demanding on a players multitasking (the ability to manage both micro and macro and other things).
This is what i've got so far, i hope whoever @ blizzard has been reading these forums now understands what we mean when we say moving-shot.
Basically its not that a unit should be able to attack even though its being issued a move command, but that through quick alternation of Move and Attack commands the unit keeps moving during its fireing animation.
Also, it would be WONDERFULL if as shown above there was a slight difference between the way a unit behaves / microes when being issued the Patrol command rather than the Attack command. My suggestion is that you make a couple of units (say 1 or 2 for each race) have a much shorter turning animation when Patrol + Move is being used instead of Attack + Move, very quickly !!!
^ THIS*10000
Sometimes I wonder if Blizzard knows what "micro" means. Goddammit. Ugh.
Sorry don't have time to read through the last few pages...
BUT, I have tested it in the editor, which is much more constructive than to say "OP phoenix".
Anyway, actually I like how the phoenix work, IF it didn't have auto-attack
I realize that it'll remove the fact that they can attack while moving, because when you issue an attack command, whether running or chasing, it WILL decelerate ur phoenix.
Right now, why is it so OP is imo the fact that they are fast and can just move on retreating enemies to shoot them down without effort. I have tried retreating phoenix vs muta, but muta can shoot at least a few shots if phoenix want to shoot without getting shot while backing up. This is true only because of the fact that phoenix have a range of 4 (muta 3).
However, when the enemy unit range is higher than 4, like corruptor and of course vikings, retreating phoenix is not effective because those units gets free shots from retreating phoenix. I have found in editor testing that retreating phoenix is just outranged by anything range 3 or less, like muta.
Chasing phoenix, on the other hand, is good against retreating enemies, because phoenix are fast and can get free shots without any deceleration while your enemy retreat.
Blizzard thus should at least (or MUST) remove auto-attack, and maybe change the stats for deceleration or attack animation.
Actually, to add to my previous post, I want to say that microing phoenix against muta takes much more, because phoenix vs muta range diff is only of 1. You need to constantly right click back and forth.
Actually, I have to say that I have an easier time microing against chasing muta if I move back, hold position, move back, hold position, move front, move back, hold position. That way phoenix actually DOES attack without much deceleration and actually can stay out of range of muta if a person have perfect micro. I dunno, that might be a feeling too.
I just get the feeling that blizzard is just trying to force corrupters on us. Corruption was a good support ability, but blizzard seems to be intent on turning them into a main-use unit, now that corrupters are now the only air unit capable of taking out phoenix, thanks to speed buff.
Last time he admitted that they required corrupters for brood lords to give corrupters a wider purpose in the game. I think if you have to look to ways to include something, or change core mechanics to make that thing work ... maybe that thing doesn't belong in the first place.
I dunno, Dustin must have some kind of hard-on for tentacles or something.
@ those who think that Blizzard thinks this is what you mean by the deceleration micro. No. Blizzard didn't implement this instead of that. What is asked in that is a mechanical change, that would, for the most part affect all air units. That may or may not show in the patch notes, but it would be universal. This is NOT that. This is EXCLUSIVE to the Phoenix, and designed to buff the Phoenix themselves and make them a fun and interesting unit. For the most part, the Phoenix was very dull. Much better now.
@ those who claim this would be stupid OP. Try it. You will find that is NOT true. I know this because I HAVE tried it. This makes them stronger against Mutalisks (the unit they are designed to counter), Banshees (no GIGANTIC difference, since they couldn't fire back anyway), Overlords (swoops of the base will be a legit form of harass, but can be countered) and any retreating air.
Surprisingly enough (lol right), Vikings (9 range), Corruptors (now buffed against non-massive and with 2 armor), Void Rays (7 range, no overdamage), Capital Ships (outside Broodlords. Too much damage, HP and Armor), other Phoenix (lol), are relatively unchanged.
On May 07 2010 07:05 willeesmalls wrote: Why shouldn't phoenix hard counter mutas? They cost the same, Protoss needs a specific tech building to get it, they come out slowly, and do not harrass workers or influence a big fight the way mutas can.
Yeah, I mean like the spire is totally not a tech building at all!
But no, I have no problem with this change, looking forward to using more corruptors as Zerg :-)
On May 07 2010 10:06 BladeRunner wrote: instead of the community making a game competitive that probably was never intended to be (or do Smash fans argue otherwise??)
No, Brawl was never intended by Sakurai to be competitive. He did everything he could to prevent it from being competitive and he did a damn good job. So what you say is definitely true.
On May 07 2010 10:08 beetlelisk wrote: I don't think being forced to click Patrol behind your units and move away ASAP is that much of spamming. Phoenixes are still faster so they can use their +1range against Mutas and upgrading their attack to +1 would also still matter. Now it doesn't, all you have to know is if there are Infestor or Hydras and where are they, that is all. Even rush maps have enough space to kite mutas in a perfectly free way.
On May 07 2010 10:15 diehilde wrote: just tested 10 muta vs 5 phoenix in custom game against some ppl... u wont kill a single phoenix. I guess phoenix really hard counters muta now, unfortunately to a point where it almost makes no sense building them anymore.
@beetlelisk: Phoenix are faster, but due to the fact that they used to decelerate before attacking, kiting didn't really work out all that well. One range just wasn't enough with the game mechanics the way they are. Being able to literally move while shooting is extremely powerful and, as I said in the post you quoted (and supported a bit by diehilde's post), Phoenix could potentially use a damage nerf now, as they got their much needed buff...just in a somewhat funky way.
To use a slightly childish, yet relevant counterpoint to both of you: Zealots can be kited by Marines, Marauders, Reapers, Roaches, etc, etc and, at best, Charge simply prevents you from taking zero damage in the process. Does that mean it makes no sense not to build Zealots and/or research Charge? Keep in mind that I don't necessarily disagree completely, but that I'm much too hesitant to call any imbalance, especially this early.
On May 07 2010 06:11 TheDrill wrote: Well at least they hard-counter every fucking air unit now.
Fixed.
lmao they still lose to every capital ship, they lose to corrupters, they maybe break even with vikings
Actually, I think Phoenix were already slightly superior, possibly even, to Vikings before this. That doesn't really change now except that you could swoop through with your Phoenix, then retreat while the shields heal up, which you could probably do against any air unit, though it doesn't mean it's all that effective for anything other than distraction.
I just get the feeling that blizzard is just trying to force corrupters on us. Corruption was a good support ability, but blizzard seems to be intent on turning them into a main-use unit, now that corrupters are now the only air unit capable of taking out phoenix, thanks to speed buff.
Last time he admitted that they required corrupters for brood lords to give corrupters a wider purpose in the game. I think if you have to look to ways to include something, or change core mechanics to make that thing work ... maybe that thing doesn't belong in the first place.
I dunno, Dustin must have some kind of hard-on for tentacles or something.
my 2 cents.
The muta was never meant to counter the Phoenix. Why would they intend to have 2 air units which are both available at the same tech level, one which can ONLY attack air and which costs more than the other, and have the other be able to counter an opposing races air unit cost effectively? Corrupter was always meant to be the counter the Phoenix. This is a FIX.
On May 07 2010 11:00 Redmark wrote: if it's not micro why'd you mention Nony's name instead of your own?
Because it's Nony's trademark unit that will obviously start to be popular extremely soon. Phoenixes in my opinion are now too strong with the combination of "moving shot," which is more like auto attacking, and cheap graviton beam.
Do you even know how much "micro" is required for them? Right click. See previously posted YouTube vid.
I asked if you can imagine facing them because, well, very soon you won't have to.
Of course, I take back all I said if everyone considers right-clicking "micro."
I wish my marauders shoot by themselves while I just move them.
On May 07 2010 11:00 Redmark wrote: if it's not micro why'd you mention Nony's name instead of your own?
Because it's Nony's trademark unit that will obviously start to be popular extremely soon. Phoenixes in my opinion are now too strong with the combination of "moving shot," which is more like auto attacking, and cheap graviton beam.
Do you even know how much "micro" is required for them? Right click. See previously posted YouTube vid.
I asked if you can imagine facing them because, well, very soon you won't have to.
Of course, I take back all I said if everyone considers right-clicking "micro."
I wish my marauders shoot by themselves while I just move them.
Ok, Right Clicking makes up the micro. Now time your clicks absolutely perfectly so they don't take damage.
Don't say stupid things. Number of buttons clicked =/= Amount of micro.
well, got back from trying out the phoenixes in game....its really...slow?
you CAN kill 12 mutas with 6 pheonix...but its gonna take about 5 minutes, you cant target fire at all and the circling motion needed to keep phoenixes within range distributes the damage evenly over the whole muta mass.
Its not fun to use, and its not fun to have used against you.
Conclusion: 1. Its not Imbalanced 2. Its better than before 3. Its a really boring mechanic 4. BW style "moving shot" would be 86976% more decisive and entertaining