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Half
United States2554 Posts
On May 07 2010 09:50 Joey.rumz wrote: I feel bad for the guys that legit. wanted moving shot, saw the patch notes, tried it, and realized how 'lol' it really is. That sucks man. It's still better then nothing. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On May 07 2010 10:45 PanzerDragoon wrote: lmao they still lose to every capital ship, they lose to corrupters, they maybe break even with vikings Close  They lose to every air unit other than Banshee, Brood Lord, and Muta, and two of those can't even hit it ^_^ | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On May 07 2010 06:29 MorroW wrote: yes thats what i want for air units in general. vikings can almost do it because of their massive range and low attack stop but this would be much better for phonix instead of this auto ai why does the phonix even look like an airplane with wings if it flies same speed to all directions, makes 0 sense what so ever or u can just move in a disoriented degree by the speedofphonix-speedofhunter=newfacingdegree angle, like u did with vultures vs lings in sc1 but nazgul stop saying its a hard task, its not lol (not that other things r tho) if this is true then were halfway to a comeback of mutaharass in tvz :p No micro is hard in a vacuum after a bit of practice. A bit different when you're trying to maintain macro, chrono boost, and move your other units at the same time. | ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
then I saw that this thread was 15 pages and I was like "damn... I guess not" | ||
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zealing
Canada806 Posts
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Orpheus
United States35 Posts
^ THIS*10000 Sometimes I wonder if Blizzard knows what "micro" means. Goddammit. Ugh. | ||
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Orpheus
United States35 Posts
How the f is graviton beam 50 energy!? This is NOT micro. /nerdrage | ||
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Redmark
Canada2129 Posts
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firebound12
Canada274 Posts
BUT, I have tested it in the editor, which is much more constructive than to say "OP phoenix". Anyway, actually I like how the phoenix work, IF it didn't have auto-attack I realize that it'll remove the fact that they can attack while moving, because when you issue an attack command, whether running or chasing, it WILL decelerate ur phoenix. Right now, why is it so OP is imo the fact that they are fast and can just move on retreating enemies to shoot them down without effort. I have tried retreating phoenix vs muta, but muta can shoot at least a few shots if phoenix want to shoot without getting shot while backing up. This is true only because of the fact that phoenix have a range of 4 (muta 3). However, when the enemy unit range is higher than 4, like corruptor and of course vikings, retreating phoenix is not effective because those units gets free shots from retreating phoenix. I have found in editor testing that retreating phoenix is just outranged by anything range 3 or less, like muta. Chasing phoenix, on the other hand, is good against retreating enemies, because phoenix are fast and can get free shots without any deceleration while your enemy retreat. Blizzard thus should at least (or MUST) remove auto-attack, and maybe change the stats for deceleration or attack animation. Thats my 2 cents as an editor tester. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On May 07 2010 06:05 GX.Sigma wrote: wish terran viks could counter mutas that easy and cooly lol | ||
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eSen1a
Australia1058 Posts
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firebound12
Canada274 Posts
Actually, I have to say that I have an easier time microing against chasing muta if I move back, hold position, move back, hold position, move front, move back, hold position. That way phoenix actually DOES attack without much deceleration and actually can stay out of range of muta if a person have perfect micro. I dunno, that might be a feeling too. Again this was tested in the editor. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
I just get the feeling that blizzard is just trying to force corrupters on us. Corruption was a good support ability, but blizzard seems to be intent on turning them into a main-use unit, now that corrupters are now the only air unit capable of taking out phoenix, thanks to speed buff. Last time he admitted that they required corrupters for brood lords to give corrupters a wider purpose in the game. I think if you have to look to ways to include something, or change core mechanics to make that thing work ... maybe that thing doesn't belong in the first place. I dunno, Dustin must have some kind of hard-on for tentacles or something. my 2 cents. | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
This is NOT that. This is EXCLUSIVE to the Phoenix, and designed to buff the Phoenix themselves and make them a fun and interesting unit. For the most part, the Phoenix was very dull. Much better now. @ those who claim this would be stupid OP. Try it. You will find that is NOT true. I know this because I HAVE tried it. This makes them stronger against Mutalisks (the unit they are designed to counter), Banshees (no GIGANTIC difference, since they couldn't fire back anyway), Overlords (swoops of the base will be a legit form of harass, but can be countered) and any retreating air. Surprisingly enough (lol right), Vikings (9 range), Corruptors (now buffed against non-massive and with 2 armor), Void Rays (7 range, no overdamage), Capital Ships (outside Broodlords. Too much damage, HP and Armor), other Phoenix (lol), are relatively unchanged. | ||
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Kurt_Russell
Canada147 Posts
On May 07 2010 07:05 willeesmalls wrote: Why shouldn't phoenix hard counter mutas? They cost the same, Protoss needs a specific tech building to get it, they come out slowly, and do not harrass workers or influence a big fight the way mutas can. Yeah, I mean like the spire is totally not a tech building at all! But no, I have no problem with this change, looking forward to using more corruptors as Zerg :-) | ||
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Raislin
United States144 Posts
On May 07 2010 10:06 BladeRunner wrote: instead of the community making a game competitive that probably was never intended to be (or do Smash fans argue otherwise??) No, Brawl was never intended by Sakurai to be competitive. He did everything he could to prevent it from being competitive and he did a damn good job. So what you say is definitely true. On May 07 2010 10:08 beetlelisk wrote: I don't think being forced to click Patrol behind your units and move away ASAP is that much of spamming. Phoenixes are still faster so they can use their +1range against Mutas and upgrading their attack to +1 would also still matter. Now it doesn't, all you have to know is if there are Infestor or Hydras and where are they, that is all. Even rush maps have enough space to kite mutas in a perfectly free way. On May 07 2010 10:15 diehilde wrote: just tested 10 muta vs 5 phoenix in custom game against some ppl... u wont kill a single phoenix. I guess phoenix really hard counters muta now, unfortunately to a point where it almost makes no sense building them anymore. @beetlelisk: Phoenix are faster, but due to the fact that they used to decelerate before attacking, kiting didn't really work out all that well. One range just wasn't enough with the game mechanics the way they are. Being able to literally move while shooting is extremely powerful and, as I said in the post you quoted (and supported a bit by diehilde's post), Phoenix could potentially use a damage nerf now, as they got their much needed buff...just in a somewhat funky way. To use a slightly childish, yet relevant counterpoint to both of you: Zealots can be kited by Marines, Marauders, Reapers, Roaches, etc, etc and, at best, Charge simply prevents you from taking zero damage in the process. Does that mean it makes no sense not to build Zealots and/or research Charge? Keep in mind that I don't necessarily disagree completely, but that I'm much too hesitant to call any imbalance, especially this early. Edit: On May 07 2010 10:45 PanzerDragoon wrote: lmao they still lose to every capital ship, they lose to corrupters, they maybe break even with vikings Actually, I think Phoenix were already slightly superior, possibly even, to Vikings before this. That doesn't really change now except that you could swoop through with your Phoenix, then retreat while the shields heal up, which you could probably do against any air unit, though it doesn't mean it's all that effective for anything other than distraction. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On May 07 2010 11:21 a176 wrote: imo: I just get the feeling that blizzard is just trying to force corrupters on us. Corruption was a good support ability, but blizzard seems to be intent on turning them into a main-use unit, now that corrupters are now the only air unit capable of taking out phoenix, thanks to speed buff. Last time he admitted that they required corrupters for brood lords to give corrupters a wider purpose in the game. I think if you have to look to ways to include something, or change core mechanics to make that thing work ... maybe that thing doesn't belong in the first place. I dunno, Dustin must have some kind of hard-on for tentacles or something. my 2 cents. The muta was never meant to counter the Phoenix. Why would they intend to have 2 air units which are both available at the same tech level, one which can ONLY attack air and which costs more than the other, and have the other be able to counter an opposing races air unit cost effectively? Corrupter was always meant to be the counter the Phoenix. This is a FIX. | ||
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Orpheus
United States35 Posts
On May 07 2010 11:00 Redmark wrote: if it's not micro why'd you mention Nony's name instead of your own? Because it's Nony's trademark unit that will obviously start to be popular extremely soon. Phoenixes in my opinion are now too strong with the combination of "moving shot," which is more like auto attacking, and cheap graviton beam. Do you even know how much "micro" is required for them? Right click. See previously posted YouTube vid. I asked if you can imagine facing them because, well, very soon you won't have to. Of course, I take back all I said if everyone considers right-clicking "micro." I wish my marauders shoot by themselves while I just move them. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On May 07 2010 12:03 Orpheus wrote: Because it's Nony's trademark unit that will obviously start to be popular extremely soon. Phoenixes in my opinion are now too strong with the combination of "moving shot," which is more like auto attacking, and cheap graviton beam. Do you even know how much "micro" is required for them? Right click. See previously posted YouTube vid. I asked if you can imagine facing them because, well, very soon you won't have to. Of course, I take back all I said if everyone considers right-clicking "micro." I wish my marauders shoot by themselves while I just move them. Ok, Right Clicking makes up the micro. Now time your clicks absolutely perfectly so they don't take damage. Don't say stupid things. Number of buttons clicked =/= Amount of micro. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
you CAN kill 12 mutas with 6 pheonix...but its gonna take about 5 minutes, you cant target fire at all and the circling motion needed to keep phoenixes within range distributes the damage evenly over the whole muta mass. Its not fun to use, and its not fun to have used against you. Conclusion: 1. Its not Imbalanced 2. Its better than before 3. Its a really boring mechanic 4. BW style "moving shot" would be 86976% more decisive and entertaining | ||
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