On May 08 2010 00:35 goszar wrote: I played SC:BW, WC3, even DotA and many other rts. I want to say that Animation Canceling is just an abuse of game engine bugs in all those games. I can't understand why people want bugs to be introduced in SC2. You wanted Phoenix buff VS Mutas - here it is. The solution is questionable of course, but is definitely much better than introducing a bug on purpose.
Animation canceling wasn't a bug. It was about how the unit behaved acceleration/deceleration wise. Making a Zergling invisible and glitching probes through buildings, that's bugs.
On May 08 2010 01:01 Dekoth wrote: Power of the phoenix remains relatively unchanged. It is simply capable of doing its job for at least a little while now. Explain how this is way too powerful?
It's too powerful because it can take on a unit that costs half and can be produced 3x+ faster in 2v1? Sounds pretty balanced to me...
Did you see that new video? It seems to be able to take out almost an infinite number of them
They were not microed.
You have to put hings into perspective. The zerg will have lots of mutas against few phoenixes early on. The zerg could split his mutas and try to micro back, or just ignore the phoenixes and try to do as much damage as possible to the protoss base.
On May 08 2010 01:01 Dekoth wrote: Power of the phoenix remains relatively unchanged. It is simply capable of doing its job for at least a little while now. Explain how this is way too powerful?
It's too powerful because it can take on a unit that costs half and can be produced 3x+ faster in 2v1? Sounds pretty balanced to me...
Did you see that new video? It seems to be able to take out almost an infinite number of them
They were not microed.
You have to put hings into perspective. The zerg will have lots of mutas against few phoenixes early on. The zerg could split his mutas and try to micro back, or just ignore the phoenixes and try to do as much damage as possible to the protoss base.
Lol? Yeah, if the toss doesn't pressure at all, the zerg will have "lots of mutas". That also means the toss is bad. You need to pressure zerg early game to keep their drone count low. And don't tell me you're talking about 1 hatch mutas, because that's just terrible. Esp against toss with their 2 AA units on gate.
Its really disappointing to see how many people will watch a video or read a post about how Phoenixes were changed and base their opinion on that. You need to actually play the game before you says its imbalanced or bad or something like that. Something in practice is a hell of a lot different than in theory.
I want to see some videos of in GAME footage, against a REAL opponent before we start making these wild claims. I haven't had this be a negative issue at all in any game I've played since the patch, but I suck, and don't play at a high level.
However, some dude killing mutas in a UMS map against a crappy AI opponent means all of about nothing in terms of game balance.
If you *know* its broken, lets see some game footage of you abusing it or being abused. Against another human.
On May 08 2010 01:48 deadalnix wrote: You can just, by 3 clic on the minimap destroy a whole pack of mutalisk.
This should require more attention, in order to make it difficult to do and macroing at the same time.
So let me get this straight. If I queue up 3 commands to move on the minimap with my 5 Phoenixes, you are going to tell your Mutalisks to follow my Phoenixes and allow them to be kited? And then you'll continue making Mutalisks, despite them now being countered? If so, you're a moron. You people aren't realizing that this patch was intended to make Phoenix hard counter Mutalisks. But what happens when Corrupters come into the mix? Even without their debuff, Corrupters will still beat Phoenix. With their debuff it gets even worse. You really need to play the game before posting and not just throwing out these wild theory-craft claims.
This whole Phoenix thing is no different than Reapers kiting zealots and Zerglings or stalkers kiting Roaches. Its a unit that counters another unit. It kills that unit. Its not imbalanced, its just how RTS games work. You guys are just freaking out over the fact that there is a new counter to a unit that wasn't there before. But Phoenixes can be countered. Corrupters do a great job at it. And a lot of times you'll get Corrupters anyway to deal with colossi so I really have no idea what you are complaining about.
On May 08 2010 01:01 Dekoth wrote: Power of the phoenix remains relatively unchanged. It is simply capable of doing its job for at least a little while now. Explain how this is way too powerful?
It's too powerful because it can take on a unit that costs half and can be produced 3x+ faster in 2v1? Sounds pretty balanced to me...
Did you see that new video? It seems to be able to take out almost an infinite number of them
Have you actually played the game? Evidently not..I used them in nearly all my matches yesterday and you most certainly cannot kill an infinite number of them.
I think that this phoenix change makes sense to blizzard since it makes micro easy, and playing a game should be as easy as possible. Adding handicaps lite non automining makes it thougher to play, but doesnt really make much sense gameplay and funwise. But, if no other air units can be microed it makes no sense at all. especially with that new video. I mean what the hell you can just do runbys and totally slaughter muta, theyre TOTALLY useless against phoenixes now. If phoenixes can micro so should muta be able to, and hellions. the other units works quite well microwise, especially reaper.
Corruptors do counter Phoenix if they ever go head to head, due to the health and armor they possess. Before I point out the futility of this, I'll throw out a few facts.
Phoenix counter Vikings pretty effectively now in small numbers due to their speed and Corruptors are solidly beaten by Vikings due to the range. However, it would be noteworthy to point out that Corruptors do the lowest amount of damage over time amongst the three Air-to-Air fighters not considering modifiers, and Anti-Massive isn't the most prevalent enemy excepting Collosus. (Unless you compare it agaisnt a 2 Armor advantage, in which the Viking still soundly beats it). Vikings can harass the economy and buildings by landing. This is a mild threat. Phoenix can harass the economy in a much more effective manner, provided they aren't limited by energy. Corruptors pose no economic threat unless it is ZvZ.
Thus, there is no reason to really hunt down Corruptors while there can be a significant threat from Phoenix and mild threat from Vikings. Phoenix can simply avoid all encounters due to their impressive speed. They can beat Vikings cost for cost, thus this can be an effective method of use. Why chase after Corruptors however? There is no real need. You can effectively dance outside of any pack of Corruptors range and harass the Zerg economy ruthlessly with minor micro investment. Mutalisks to are a much better counter to a Phoenix then Corruptors, simply due to the Phoenix speed, and Mutalisks get trashed by Phoenix in their current state.
Phoenix trash Mutalisk, beat up Vikings in small numbers, and can avoid Corruptors while harassing the economy of any player. You must rely on Spore Colonies, Hydralisk, Missile Turrets, Thors, and Marines to counter Phoenix. Mass Vikings can work due to their range as well. This might be intentional, who knows. I know I'm not going to be building any air without ground cover against a Protoss that has access to the Phoenix.
On May 07 2010 06:58 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: I have to say... it looks utterly bizarre. It's a buff to Protoss against muta (which I think was probably needed) but it is one hell of a strange buff.
I actually really like this change. It was a creative way to buff the phoenix against a specific unit without affecting other relationships in the game too much.
I really like this change - it allows for micro, and makes P air much much stronger than units without adding splash damage or changing the stats. It allows for much more flexibility in midgame for P as well, and gives it slightly more mobility as well.
So when are the muta micro mechanics and banshee/viking micro mechanics being forced in?
I actually believed someone when they said it requires skill to do. I was thoroughly dissapointed when all it was was simply attacking ONCE and then moving around all day....not to mention with a stupid RANGE INDICATOR TOO.
lol I love this change, it was super fun yesterday countering mutalisks with phoenix nor was it super easy-mode to do.
Decent muta micro will still let you get shots in on the phoenix and they go down quickly as you know. It's also cool you can have phoenix chasing the mutas and have the mutas turn around really quick to get shots in before the player can react. Very tense.
actually as a side effect to this I think phoenix might be too strong against hydras now... My opponent tech-switched to hydras, i had about 8 phoenix.. he had probably 12 hydras... I just hit 'g' on each hydra and phoenix on their way to grav beam were shooting hydras that had already been lifted, (and phoenix do about 20 damage to hydras). And of course units don't shoot while grav'd so i pretty much took out all his ground-based aa and only lost 1-2 phoenix. Part of it was the gravbeam fixes... as phoenix ai had been bugged before... But this new moving shot is huge.
Obviously phoenix are countered by 1 aa tower or corruptors, so I don't think they're imbalanced, but i think they're a super viable opening against zerg now.
I haven't tried out a viking vs a phoenix... But in raw numbers viking does 20 damage against a phoenix and phoenix has 120h/60s, so 9 shots. Phoenix does 10 damage to viking and v's have 125 hp so 13 shots. Phoenix shoot faster of course, and vikings will get a shot off long before phoenix comes into range.
Regardless of who wins.... Vikings cost 150/75 and phoenix cost 150/100 so phoenix probably should win. Vikings can land, phoenix can not.
EPT
