On May 07 2010 08:18 Lollersauce wrote: I'm just wondering how you're presently supposed to ZvP against a P who gets just enough defense/sentries to wall and go air. Apparently Blizzard thinks we are supposed to counter void rays with infestor NP (lol, let's tally up the cost/time investments someone) and investing into corruptors who are AtA only just to not get raped by OL hunting and gravbeams sounds like a totally winning plan to me, considering phoenixes double up as AtG.
Basically all I'm seeing is fast hydra den... zzz.
Huh? The same way you did before.. multiple queens while getting lair then hydra? Mass Phoenix from a single base will be the same as it was.
Well that's basically one less option (mutas) against a toss even just getting his cy core. Considering how weak our options are on ground already thanks to FF everywhere, zerg is just basically pigeonholed into even fewer choices. Not like there was many to begin with. I guess the point is, did toss really need a counter to mutas with blinking stalkers and sentries at t1? Even void rays weren't bad.
Would be nice to have more than 2 reasonable options (burrowed roaches or hydras) in this MU.
i'd say this is a change in the wrong direction in terms of "evolution of micro." Right click? Easy. Of course we thought mbs/automining would WTFRAPE the game, and that was not so bad.,
still would rather it be implemented to be as difficult as brood war. It's not fun when everyone and their mother can micro like a pro. Sort of takes away spectator value. Pretty much copy paste what morrow said, you'll be watching a replay and thinking, "yah, I can do that, it's easy as fuck."
On May 07 2010 08:19 Random() wrote: People: Fuck you Blizzard, phoenix is too clumsy to micro, we want crisper control.
Blizzard: Hang on, we're trying some changes, how about this new fun stuff..?
People: Fuck you Blizzard, we want to be able to control units EXACTLY as in BW, and also patrol command MUST glitch in the EXACT same way as in BW! Also units MUST NEVER be able to auto-shoot while moving: they didn't in BW and hence it is a sacrilege to even think of allowing that!
I'm done with this discussion; people just refuse to think out of BW box and accept anything new.
+Making Muta micro possible (edit: and I still don't know if it is) only by using Patrol key and not Attack and Hold anymore +removing auto-split by which I mean each flyer from a stacked group attacking different target when ordered to Hold during moving +making stacking very much harder if it's possible only when spamming move near flyers
^--- those are ok with me and would be a key example of transitioning at least part of skill from macro to micro, those would mean it's still balanced with no 12 units limit and macro being easier
But if they are going to make units shoot when they are just moving (and I don't believe this is happening in this video) then this is not only bizzare but imbalanced and takes away a lot from the game. You wouldn't even see this that much because player that can't do this would simply avoid fights or even entire tech.
The fact that moving shot worked the way it did in SC1 was unintentional, consider phoenix being able to attack while moving an improvement, just like unlimited unit selection, automine, etc... you may not like it, you may think it takes less skill, but this isn't 1998. Blizzard isn't going to try to force the game to be 'hard' by making the interface clunky (which, sadly, was one of the biggest reasons BW was such a hard game to play)
I think people keep on forgetting that Starcraft 2 involves more than just microing pheonixes, so this patch will in no way completely destroy the mechanics of the game...
On May 07 2010 08:18 Lollersauce wrote: I'm just wondering how you're presently supposed to ZvP against a P who gets just enough defense/sentries to wall and go air. Apparently Blizzard thinks we are supposed to counter void rays with infestor NP (lol, let's tally up the cost/time investments someone) and investing into corruptors who are AtA only just to not get raped by OL hunting and gravbeams sounds like a totally winning plan to me, considering phoenixes double up as AtG.
Basically all I'm seeing is fast hydra den... zzz.
Huh? The same way you did before.. multiple queens while getting lair then hydra? Mass Phoenix from a single base will be the same as it was.
Well that's basically one less option (mutas) against a toss even just getting his cy core. Considering how weak our options are on ground already thanks to FF everywhere, zerg is just basically pigeonholed into even fewer choices. Not like there was many to begin with. I guess the point is, did toss really need a counter to mutas with blinking stalkers and sentries at t1? Even void rays weren't bad.
Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do? All of the other races don't rely on a single unit, and this one even comes from the same tech tree. Really, just adjust from going mass muta to muta-muta-muta-corruptor-muta-muta-muta-corruptor, or something.
Oh, and Void Rays are very expensive, require micro, and are inefficient against large numbers ^_^
Ok, forgive my noobery but I don't think the original video was a very.... good... representation of phoenix vs mutas, specifically because the mutalisks were clearly not micro'd, AT ALL, and they still managed to land a few shots against the phoenix.
Also, very slightly off topic, I am slightly concerned that if micro becomes a massive part of air vs. air, then it might become damn near impossible to keep spawning larva... I keep watching that video of the SC1 mutas vs. archon and think, omg, if I needed to saturate my 3 hatcheries at that point....
Blizzard added micro. They have shown that they are willing to add micro so all is well. People sholdn't stop complaining, because Blizzard wants constructive feedback, but think about this change for a moment. Blizzard games always follow the mantra of "easy to learn but difficult to master" and this new phoenix micro fits the bill perfectly. Any noob can see that they can move around their phoenixes to avoid mutas, but only the pros will be able to mico them while macroing and doing other stuff at the same time. And unlike the boring target fire micro this actually looks cool, so it's a win-win change, it takes the game in the right direction and it shows that Blizzard is willing to move in the right direction. This micro isn't really that easy either, you need to always keep your phoenixes out of the muta range and your opponent can do stuff like spiltting his muta army to catch your phoenixes. This is a good change, now play around with it a little before instantly rejecting it.
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote:I personally think the "STFU, you have a low post count, you suck, go to hell," blatantly biased attitude that is portrayed by others is far worse than my own. And, might I add, this "attitude" that you see is merely response to what I deem is unjust. QQ'ing about SC2 because it doesn't have a certain aspect is simply wrong - or rather, to shove it down other people's throats.
The way I see it, you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
You have higher post count than me, and I like the change... what are you talking about? You're borderline delusional.
Once again my post was not about balance. Try again :p Really put your entire brainpower into reading it, i even opened my thesis with: "the reason for my post was...."
On May 07 2010 08:18 Lollersauce wrote: I'm just wondering how you're presently supposed to ZvP against a P who gets just enough defense/sentries to wall and go air. Apparently Blizzard thinks we are supposed to counter void rays with infestor NP (lol, let's tally up the cost/time investments someone) and investing into corruptors who are AtA only just to not get raped by OL hunting and gravbeams sounds like a totally winning plan to me, considering phoenixes double up as AtG.
Basically all I'm seeing is fast hydra den... zzz.
Huh? The same way you did before.. multiple queens while getting lair then hydra? Mass Phoenix from a single base will be the same as it was.
Well that's basically one less option (mutas) against a toss even just getting his cy core. Considering how weak our options are on ground already thanks to FF everywhere, zerg is just basically pigeonholed into even fewer choices. Not like there was many to begin with. I guess the point is, did toss really need a counter to mutas with blinking stalkers and sentries at t1? Even void rays weren't bad.
Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do? All of the other races don't rely on a single unit, and this one even comes from the same tech tree. Really, just adjust from going mass muta to muta-muta-muta-corruptor-muta-muta-muta-corruptor, or something.
Oh, and Void Rays are very expensive, require micro, and are inefficient against large numbers ^_^
exactly, Blizzard is making these patches in order to create incentive for greater unit mixture without massing any particular unit
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote:I personally think the "STFU, you have a low post count, you suck, go to hell," blatantly biased attitude that is portrayed by others is far worse than my own. And, might I add, this "attitude" that you see is merely response to what I deem is unjust. QQ'ing about SC2 because it doesn't have a certain aspect is simply wrong - or rather, to shove it down other people's throats.
The way I see it, you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
You have higher post count than me, and I like the change... what are you talking about?
Once again my post was not about balance. Try again :p
Sorry for being unclear :/ I was referring to the people who DID do that ^_^
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote:I personally think the "STFU, you have a low post count, you suck, go to hell," blatantly biased attitude that is portrayed by others is far worse than my own. And, might I add, this "attitude" that you see is merely response to what I deem is unjust. QQ'ing about SC2 because it doesn't have a certain aspect is simply wrong - or rather, to shove it down other people's throats.
The way I see it, you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
You have higher post count than me, and I like the change... what are you talking about?
Once again my post was not about balance. Try again :p
Sorry for being unclear :/ I was referring to the people who DID do that ^_^
Really?
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote:I personally think the "STFU, you have a low post count, you suck, go to hell," blatantly biased attitude that is portrayed by others is far worse than my own. And, might I add, this "attitude" that you see is merely response to what I deem is unjust. QQ'ing about SC2 because it doesn't have a certain aspect is simply wrong - or rather, to shove it down other people's throats.
The way I see it, you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote: The way I see it, you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote: you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective.
On May 07 2010 08:30 Zeke50100 wrote: you're
But im forgiving of typos.
And yes, timing a move, then hold position, then the move away is MUCH harder than timing a move away.
On May 07 2010 08:38 Lollersauce wrote: Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
Phoenix couldn't kill overlords and gravity beam Drones in Patch 10?
Also, Corruptors are every good Zerg's standard answer to Colossi. Sup.
On May 07 2010 08:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Because making a couple Corruptors is the hardest thing to do?
Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
So let's completely ignore the fact that it exists, right? The very reason it even EXISTS is to stop things like Phoenixes; make use of it
@Koltz: Why argue against me if you don't fit that bill, then? I'm saying this new system requires micro, unlike some people who think right clicking is entirely mindless. By even arguing against that, you (heavily) imply that you do, in fact, like the SC1 method better purely because it (was more difficult, was SC1, etc.)
I really should have separated the "Post counts" and "fan" part, though.
Oh, and I personally find hitting the "H" button between clicks to be marginally more difficult at best, considering it's right in the middle of the keyboard (very close to the index fingers).
On May 07 2010 08:38 Lollersauce wrote: Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
Phoenix couldn't kill overlords and gravity beam Drones in Patch 10?
Also, Corruptors are every good Zerg's standard answer to Colossi. Sup.
Not to mention their debuff is also good vs Immortals as well as Colossi. +damage is always great.
On May 07 2010 08:38 Lollersauce wrote: Once the corruptors have managed to save my overlords and potentially gravbeamed drones, what do they do? That's right, sit around and do jack squat until you have a greater spire. Corruptors are not an interesting alternative.
Phoenix couldn't kill overlords and gravity beam Drones in Patch 10?
They sure could, but they would die to mutas before hitting critical mass. Not the case now. One less option and I don't see new ones opening up, since corruptor doesn't help anything AtG.
I'm not saying Zerg can't defend themselves or the matchup is imba... I'm saying the already small amount of options is dwindling down some more.
On May 07 2010 08:45 Lollersauce wrote: They sure could, but they would die to mutas before hitting critical mass. Not the case now. One less option and I don't see new ones opening up, since corruptor doesn't help anything AtG.
Why do you insist on countering Phoenix with Mutas lol. Phoenix is supposed to be the Mutas counter unit not the other way around.
EPT
