On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
So, you want to click A instead of just Right Click, right?
...BECAUSE THAT'S ANY DIFFERENT.
Also, to anybody saying this requires no skill to do, please record a FPVOD of you microing your Phoenixes against enemy mutalisks very efficiently, while macroing at the same time.
It is different, stop being so dense.
Pretty sure he wants the phoenixes to have to be moving TOWARDS the phoenixes, and then a-click such that they can move-shoot. (Click towards mutas, then a-click to shoot, simply an a-click would have them decelerate first) As it is right now, they can be moonwalking and shooting, or any other angle. They can be simply passing by and shooting.
The way he words it, I'm pretty sure it's a "I don't want them to auto-target" statement, i.e. he doesn't want them to act like they're on Hold Position (except while moving).
Yeah you're definitely not worth the time.
Perhaps you should have researched more into the BW lore and community before you came in here with your pretentious and condescending attitude.
Every post of yours belittles something that BW players cherish, and what's more you use hyperbole to assert, what is in your mind just, ridiculous claims.
On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote: Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine..
Please stop trying to enforce your totalitarian attitude through hyperbole, belittlement and condescension. I know, without a doubt that you did not come from BW, so perhaps try watching some VODs and realize why it was so great. Because you clearly do not understand BW micro; it wasn't the sequence of commands which allowed people to do extraordinary feats, but the timing and precision it took for 9 mutas to kill 40 marines. This timing and precision is hugely dumbed down with move-attacking phoenixes.
On May 07 2010 07:03 Koltz wrote: It's really not gamebreaking at all in it's current state. Since they don't stack, you have to make sure that one phoenix doesnt fly into the mutas at all times to get picked off easily.
It would be if the phoenixes could perma stack, but I suppose if other units could perma stack too, it'd negate it, and we'd be left with BW style air micro
On May 07 2010 07:28 MorroW wrote: automatically attack whenever enemy is inside range in rts game is exactly same concept as pull the trigger in fps whenever ur aim is on the enemy head. ofcourse u want to attack but the competition should be to pull the trigger urself. its esport, competition... if u make a game engine that makes all logical decisions for u such as laying perfect storms etc doesnt mean they should go ahead and make it. leave ur fkin new school techniques for the ai instead. mbs cloning autosplit and unlimited selection was enough, top players sit on 130 apm. any easier from here and im not impressed at all by top level play. i hope blizzard fix this because this is the beginning to a whole new level of ai. mothership was a turret and voidray had to be in a special angle but that the actual unit turns around like the phonix. totally ridiculous ;/ nobody enjoys watching top level play if u know that u could play just as good urself. hence why most ppl spent more time watching other play sc1 rather than playing it themselves
ppl who werent familiar with sc1 clearly missing the amazing point of esport
Excuse me, but don't your marines auto-attack stuff when it comes within range, or do you actually have to manually 'pull the trigger'? ^^
On May 07 2010 07:36 floor exercise wrote: When you attack move, yes. And they don't fire out of their ass when you move them back either. Do you even understand the changes to the phoenix?
What about when they just chill doing nothing? Shouldn't they ignore incoming enemies until you explicitly attack-move?
On May 07 2010 07:36 floor exercise wrote: When you attack move, yes. And they don't fire out of their ass when you move them back either. Do you even understand the changes to the phoenix?
What about when they just chill doing nothing? Shouldn't they ignore incoming enemies until you explicitly attack-move?
On May 07 2010 07:36 floor exercise wrote: When you attack move, yes. And they don't fire out of their ass when you move them back either. Do you even understand the changes to the phoenix?
What about when they just chill doing nothing? Shouldn't they ignore incoming enemies until you explicitly attack-move?
explain to me how this has anything to do with the phoenix changes.
Actually, just explain the phoenix changes to me, because I'm pretty sure you don't even know what they are.
On May 07 2010 06:53 decemvre wrote: Its pretty clear to me now that some blizzard employees actually read these forums so this is basically a thread dedicated to them. Its pretty obvious that someone read Lalush's thread about the BroodWar "moving-shot". Unfortunately whoever read that post completely missunderstood what we mean by "moving-shot".
I'll try and be brief.
1. Never did we mean to say that we wanted units that could attack targets while moving (after being issued only a simple "MOVE" command).
2. The units in BroodWar that can perform "move-shot" do so as a result of being issued both the attack command and the move command very quickly. This is possible because they have short fireing animations.
As JulyZerg Demonstrates:
Please note that he is using BOTH move and attack very quickly in order to have the mutas move immediately after their fire animation thus they basically never stop and are able to perform what we mean by "moving-shot".
Units that can do this ONLY when "micro-ed propperly: Vulture, Goliath (to a lesser degree), Wraith, Mutalisk, Probes, Drones, (maybe guardians and battlecruisers i really dont know), Archon, Corsair, Scout (the scout is the best possible example of this).
What i mean by "microed properly" is being issued very fast move and attack commands so that they don't completely stop to do their fireing animation !
3. Units in BroodWar that have different attacks when being issued the "Patrol" command and not the Attack command. Patrol is basically used instead of attack while also still having the "move command" constantly being sent to the unit.
Vultures will now demonstrate the awesomeness of "Patrol Micro":
The Vulture is capable of a different kind of micro depending on weather Attack + move or Patrol + Move is issued. The turning animation for the Vulture decreaseas GREATLY when Patrol is being used. Attack + Move is used when chasing after an enemy unit while Patrol + Move is being used when being chansed by an enemy unit !!!
And now the wonder of the Valkyries: - again by using Patrol + Move instead of Attack + Move the Valkyries are able to behave completely differently. If "Attack" is used Valks are unable to move for the duration of their fireing animation.
Now, PLEASE understand that this kind of micro (yes in BroodWar it is a result of an imperfect game-engine, but just look how much fun it can be to do this...) needs to be difficult to achieve, or if not "difficult", both Attack and Move commands MUST be used in order to be demanding on a players multitasking (the ability to manage both micro and macro and other things).
This is what i've got so far, i hope whoever @ blizzard has been reading these forums now understands what we mean when we say moving-shot.
Basically its not that a unit should be able to attack even though its being issued a move command, but that through quick alternation of Move and Attack commands the unit keeps moving during its fireing animation.
Also, it would be WONDERFULL if as shown above there was a slight difference between the way a unit behaves / microes when being issued the Patrol command rather than the Attack command. My suggestion is that you make a couple of units (say 1 or 2 for each race) have a much shorter turning animation when Patrol + Move is being used instead of Attack + Move, very quickly !!!
I think Blizzard understands this stuff, they just don't want to do it. Certainly incompetence could be the culprit but I don't think it's right to assume that Blizzard just doesn't get it.
Having the attack/patrol move animation cancel is very unintuitive to a new player. It's like bunny hopping (I hope this doesn't bring up the bunny hopping debate) in FPS, sure it adds a skill to be learned but it's kind of weird. Some games don't have bunny hopping and I don't think a game necessarily needs to have bunny hopping to be competitive.
Maybe SC2 does need this, but that is a different argument than the one here.
The thread on TL obviously meant animation cancelling. That is to say, to change an air unit from having a slow initial attack and fast attack cooldown, to having a fast initial attack and a slow attack cooldown, that way, orbwalking/kiting/animation cancelling would be needed to maximise the unit's attack.
That is to say, by the following table where ==== is pre-attack, + is attack and ------ is the attack cooldown,
from the first instance ========== + ------------------ to the second instance === + -----------------------------
Therefore, if you micro the second isntance, the effect you would get is
=== + === + === + === +, with no attack cooldown, given you put the micro into it...
I can't believe Blizzard would misinterpret such a point, and I don't know why they would not want to put such a mechanism in a Blizzard game - it's not just present in SC2, it's present in DOTA and WC3 to a very high extent. Microing your Pmoon or enchantress in DOTA and your DH in WC3 means that the damage output could be increased by up to 50%, GIVEN you put the effort into it. It's present in Coutner-strike -> quick switching your AWP is a form of animation cancelling that allows you to fire faster (well it was, til 1.6).
This new "MOVING SHOT" (Thx to the misnomer by the initial postmaker, I feel to an extent) mechanism is more similar to CNC([3], at least) tanks.. where units can shoot while moving, something I hate about CNC. Greater effective animation cancelling needs to be in the game to award the user for more micro.
On May 07 2010 07:36 floor exercise wrote: When you attack move, yes. And they don't fire out of their ass when you move them back either. Do you even understand the changes to the phoenix?
What about when they just chill doing nothing? Shouldn't they ignore incoming enemies until you explicitly attack-move?
You are just completely missing the point. The argument here is the difficulty of the micro. The update itself is not what people initially wanted, which was the ability to CANCEL ANIMATION into a move command. This required strict timing and feel for the attack recharge and animation cancel timing (see Muta Micro). This phoenix bug now is jus moving around in circles, all you have to do play keep away, thats IT. Also, the distinguishing aspect of ATTACK MOVE as opposed to MOVE is something so basic in RTS that if you dont understand it, quit.
"Blizzard has made the game too bug free, there's no glitches we can abuse to "make micro"
yes?
I don't think blizzard is aiming for that kind of micro at the moment
Its easy to "let it stay" when already implemented, but it makes no sense from a game designing point of view to make something this unintuitive by purpose
On May 07 2010 07:42 LaLuSh wrote: Your analogy failed there. Sorry man.
It's not an analogy, it's a direct response to MorroW's statement about 'not pulling the trigger'. When you tell marines to stop, you don't explicitly order them to 'stop' and then 'shoot at anything that approaches', but they still shoot automatically. They can be somewhere where you are not even looking, but still shoot automatically, without you even knowing.
My argument is that you cannot avoid automation in an RTS, hence automation by itself is not necessarily evil. I guess I just want people to see how this plays out in the context of a particular unit, and not just scream 'omg automation noobs will suddenly become so good now'.
On May 07 2010 07:42 LaLuSh wrote: Your analogy failed there. Sorry man.
It's not an analogy, it's a direct response to MorroW's statement about 'not pulling the trigger'. When you tell marines to stop, you don't explicitly order them to 'stop' and then 'shoot at anything that approaches', but they still shoot automatically. They can be somewhere where you are not even looking, but still shoot automatically, without you even knowing.
My argument is that you cannot avoid automation in an RTS, hence automation by itself is not necessarily evil. I guess I just want people to see how this plays out in the context of a particular unit, and not just scream 'omg automation noobs will suddenly become so good now'.
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but this example is wrong, Marines can't move while they are attacking; even though you can move them during cooldown it's close but not the same.
The way Phoenixes can shoot shown in that video someone posted looks a lot easier even if it's not (at least that much) simply because they move backwards while in BW you have no units moving backwards, you have to turn at certain degress if you want to make your units shoot without making them slow down.
EPT
