On May 07 2010 07:18 prosper wrote: I just played my first game on this patch and it was against a toss. Of course they abused this new buff. He goes 2 gate and gets some zealots so I can't rush then he just masses phoenix and runs around sniping all my overlords/drones causing me to make spores and try to tech to hyrdas. I initially got roaches because I seen all the zealots. Losing all the overlords and making the spores set me back so bad that eventually he just walks in with a huge ground army. I guess the only way to play ZvP from now on is to rush spore colonies and hydras completely disregarding roaches and hoping your lings hold him off if he attacks before your hydras are up.
I also made some queens to try to fend it off but he just flew by sniping down OL's barely taking many hits since he didn't have to stay still to attack. Mutas also will be completely screwed.
I'm sorry but I think you're just bad. Everything you explained would've happened regardless to this patch. Maybe it was a bit harder for your queens to hit the phoenix, but that is to be debated on your skill as well.
I just played my first game on this patch and it was against a toss. Of course they abused this new buff. He goes 2 gate and gets some zealots so I can't rush then he just masses phoenix and runs around sniping all my overlords/drones causing me to make spores and try to tech to hyrdas. I initially got roaches because I seen all the zealots. Losing all the overlords and making the spores set me back so bad that eventually he just walks in with a huge ground army. I guess the only way to play ZvP from now on is to rush spore colonies and hydras completely disregarding roaches and hoping your lings hold him off if he attacks before your hydras are up.
Sounds like the patch had exactly 0 effect on the outcome of your game... This could have happened to you before the patch as well
On May 07 2010 07:18 prosper wrote: I just played my first game on this patch and it was against a toss. Of course they abused this new buff. He goes 2 gate and gets some zealots so I can't rush then he just masses phoenix and runs around sniping all my overlords/drones causing me to make spores and try to tech to hyrdas. I initially got roaches because I seen all the zealots. Losing all the overlords and making the spores set me back so bad that eventually he just walks in with a huge ground army. I guess the only way to play ZvP from now on is to rush spore colonies and hydras completely disregarding roaches and hoping your lings hold him off if he attacks before your hydras are up.
I also made some queens to try to fend it off but he just flew by sniping down OL's barely taking many hits since he didn't have to stay still to attack. Mutas also will be completely screwed.
And without moving attack would this have been different, your roaches vs phoenixes? I don't see how the moving attack element contributed to your loss; specifically the part where the moving attack was so broken that he was able to micro your defending AA extremely easily, such that it created an imbalanced matchup.
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
So, you want to click A instead of just Right Click, right?
...BECAUSE THAT'S ANY DIFFERENT.
Also, to anybody saying this requires no skill to do, please record a FPVOD of you microing your Phoenixes against enemy mutalisks very efficiently, while macroing at the same time.
On May 07 2010 07:18 prosper wrote: I just played my first game on this patch and it was against a toss. Of course they abused this new buff. He goes 2 gate and gets some zealots so I can't rush then he just masses phoenix and runs around sniping all my overlords/drones causing me to make spores and try to tech to hyrdas. I initially got roaches because I seen all the zealots. Losing all the overlords and making the spores set me back so bad that eventually he just walks in with a huge ground army. I guess the only way to play ZvP from now on is to rush spore colonies and hydras completely disregarding roaches and hoping your lings hold him off if he attacks before your hydras are up.
I also made some queens to try to fend it off but he just flew by sniping down OL's barely taking many hits since he didn't have to stay still to attack. Mutas also will be completely screwed.
I think you just suck..How are overlords easier to kill with moving shot..
I think this is a good thing that a moving shot is not micro intensive, because this game is not for the super dedicated people only and many casual gamers play as well and this unit would be trash for someone who could not do the micro of the moving shot vs someone who does, this isn't a giant issue, this is like people complaining about the the gather units now auto split to the correct resources. if you rly want to have a more challenging time microing, why not use no binds at all
On May 07 2010 06:14 mahnini wrote: this is the most terrible change i've ever seen.
If it is true that you simply right click move away without patrol/attack/hold moving...then this is indeed the worst change this patch. It makes it EASYMODE.
as said, moving shot is not = right click and the unit attack/moves for you while you stay out of range infinitely. Any fucking noob can do that Blizzard.
Blizzard is not going to make moving shot work like it did in SC1. The SC1 method didn't make any logical sense and was a gameplay bug. The SC2 method makes sense. It is made obvious that the unit can do this, which units can do it is well known, and how to do it is also equally obvious.
It's well known that All air units had moving attack type micro in BW. In SC2 only phoenix and void ray can do it. You're telling SC2 way is more obvious and intuitive? Sure.
It is only "well known" by people who know what the right sequence of commands to make it happen are. For everyone else, it makes no sense.
On May 07 2010 06:53 decemvre wrote: Its pretty clear to me now that some blizzard employees actually read these forums so this is basically a thread dedicated to them.
Its pretty obvious that someone read Lalush's thread about the BroodWar "moving-shot". Unfortunately whoever read that post completely missunderstood what we mean by "moving-shot".
I'll try and be brief.
1. Never did we mean to say that we wanted units that could attack targets while moving (after being issued only a simple "MOVE" command).
2. The units in BroodWar that can perform "move-shot" do so as a result of being issued both the attack command and the move command very quickly. This is possible because they have short fireing animations.
As JulyZerg Demonstrates:
Please note that he is using BOTH move and attack very quickly in order to have the mutas move immediately after their fire animation thus they basically never stop and are able to perform what we mean by "moving-shot".
Units that can do this ONLY when "micro-ed propperly: Vulture, Goliath (to a lesser degree), Wraith, Mutalisk, Probes, Drones, (maybe guardians and battlecruisers i really dont know), Archon, Corsair, Scout (the scout is the best possible example of this).
What i mean by "microed properly" is being issued very fast move and attack commands so that they don't completely stop to do their fireing animation !
3. Units in BroodWar that have different attacks when being issued the "Patrol" command and not the Attack command. Patrol is basically used instead of attack while also still having the "move command" constantly being sent to the unit.
Vultures will now demonstrate the awesomeness of "Patrol Micro":
The Vulture is capable of a different kind of micro depending on weather Attack + move or Patrol + Move is issued. The turning animation for the Vulture decreaseas GREATLY when Patrol is being used. Attack + Move is used when chasing after an enemy unit while Patrol + Move is being used when being chansed by an enemy unit !!!
And now the wonder of the Valkyries: - again by using Patrol + Move instead of Attack + Move the Valkyries are able to behave completely differently. If "Attack" is used Valks are unable to move for the duration of their fireing animation.
Now, PLEASE understand that this kind of micro (yes in BroodWar it is a result of an imperfect game-engine, but just look how much fun it can be to do this...) needs to be difficult to achieve, or if not "difficult", both Attack and Move commands MUST be used in order to be demanding on a players multitasking (the ability to manage both micro and macro and other things).
This is what i've got so far, i hope whoever @ blizzard has been reading these forums now understands what we mean when we say moving-shot.
Basically its not that a unit should be able to attack even though its being issued a move command, but that through quick alternation of Move and Attack commands the unit keeps moving during its fireing animation.
Also, it would be WONDERFULL if as shown above there was a slight difference between the way a unit behaves / microes when being issued the Patrol command rather than the Attack command. My suggestion is that you make a couple of units (say 1 or 2 for each race) have a much shorter turning animation when Patrol + Move is being used instead of Attack + Move, very quickly !!!
On May 07 2010 06:14 mahnini wrote: this is the most terrible change i've ever seen.
If it is true that you simply right click move away without patrol/attack/hold moving...then this is indeed the worst change this patch. It makes it EASYMODE.
as said, moving shot is not = right click and the unit attack/moves for you while you stay out of range infinitely. Any fucking noob can do that Blizzard.
Like spamming a-move/move/a-move/move is so hard that only a genius is able to do that.
Alternatingly moving and a-moving in front of and behind your units at least required some skill and especially a good sense of timing for some units. Muta micro even was one of the hardest things to be good at in BW. Doing nothing but right clicking is slightly easier, I dare to say.
I cannot help but feel that people are somewhat missing the point of such 'micro'. Anyone can have Jaedong muta-micro if you explain them the technique and give them some time to practice. It's not difficult to learn at all, and it is irrelevant what keys you have to press to do that.
Being able to micro two packs of muta while teching/expanding/building drones is what only Jaedong can do.
Now, if you show me a game where you control 2 groups of EASYMODE phoenixes perfectly and keep up with your macro, then I will eat my socks.
automatically attack whenever enemy is inside range in rts game is exactly same concept as pull the trigger in fps whenever ur aim is on the enemy head. ofcourse u want to attack but the competition should be to pull the trigger urself. its esport, competition... if u make a game engine that makes all logical decisions for u such as laying perfect storms etc doesnt mean they should go ahead and make it. leave ur fkin new school techniques for the ai instead. mbs cloning autosplit and unlimited selection was enough, top players sit on 130 apm. any easier from here and im not impressed at all by top level play. i hope blizzard fix this because this is the beginning to a whole new level of ai. mothership was a turret and voidray had to be in a special angle but that the actual unit turns around like the phonix. totally ridiculous ;/ nobody enjoys watching top level play if u know that u could play just as good urself. hence why most ppl spent more time watching other play sc1 rather than playing it themselves
ppl who werent familiar with sc1 clearly missing the amazing point of esport
On May 07 2010 07:25 Grimatoma2 wrote: I think this is a good thing that a moving shot is not micro intensive, because this game is not for the super dedicated people only and many casual gamers play as well and this unit would be trash for someone who could not do the micro of the moving shot vs someone who does, this isn't a giant issue, this is like people complaining about the the gather units now auto split to the correct resources. if you rly want to have a more challenging time microing, why not use no binds at all
SC2 aims to be an E-sport. E-sport should require people who want to be really good at it be dedicated. Of course, taking away skill with changes like this won't make it so newbs beat pros automatically. But it doesn't really help either.
If someone is a casual player, they shouldn't care about stuff like this at all, as they will be playing against other casual players and still have lots of fun without being able to perform some of the "hard elitist micro"
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
So, you want to click A instead of just Right Click, right?
...BECAUSE THAT'S ANY DIFFERENT.
Also, to anybody saying this requires no skill to do, please record a FPVOD of you microing your Phoenixes against enemy mutalisks very efficiently, while macroing at the same time.
It is different, stop being so dense.
Pretty sure he wants the phoenixes to have to be moving TOWARDS the phoenixes, and then a-click such that they can move-shoot. (Click towards mutas, then a-click to shoot, simply an a-click would have them decelerate first) As it is right now, they can be moonwalking and shooting, or any other angle. They can be simply passing by and shooting.
On May 07 2010 07:11 Floophead_III wrote: Ok so I don't have time to read every single post about phoenixes, but I just played a game where I was 'MOVE COMMANDING' my phoenixes and they were "ATTACKING AUTOMATICALLY WHILE MOVING'. I can't emphasize the STUPIDITY of this enough. Unacceptable - probably a bug.
Read Patch Notes before making stupid claims.
You're an idiot. The patch notes say 'can attack while moving'. I'm talking about attacking automatically without me telling them to. It's playing the game for me.
So, you want to click A instead of just Right Click, right?
...BECAUSE THAT'S ANY DIFFERENT.
Also, to anybody saying this requires no skill to do, please record a FPVOD of you microing your Phoenixes against enemy mutalisks very efficiently, while macroing at the same time.
It is different, stop being so dense.
Pretty sure he wants the phoenixes to have to be moving TOWARDS the phoenixes, and then a-click such that they can move-shoot. (Click towards mutas, then a-click to shoot, simply an a-click would have them decelerate first) As it is right now, they can be moonwalking and shooting, or any other angle. They can be simply passing by and shooting.
The way he words it, I'm pretty sure it's a "I don't want them to auto-target" statement, i.e. he doesn't want them to act like they're on Hold Position (except while moving).
On May 07 2010 07:28 MorroW wrote: automatically attack whenever enemy is inside range in rts game is exactly same concept as pull the trigger in fps whenever ur aim is on the enemy head. ofcourse u want to attack but the competition should be to pull the trigger urself. its esport, competition... if u make a game engine that makes all logical decisions for u such as laying perfect storms etc doesnt mean they should go ahead and make it. leave ur fkin new school techniques for the ai instead. mbs cloning autosplit and unlimited selection was enough, top players sit on 130 apm. any easier from here and im not impressed at all by top level play. i hope blizzard fix this because this is the beginning to a whole new level of ai. mothership was a turret and voidray had to be in a special angle but that the actual unit turns around like the phonix. totally ridiculous ;/ nobody enjoys watching top level play if u know that u could play just as good urself. hence why most ppl spent more time watching other play sc1 rather than playing it themselves
ppl who werent familiar with sc1 clearly missing the amazing point of esport
Excuse me, but don't your marines auto-attack stuff when it comes within range, or do you actually have to manually 'pull the trigger'? ^^
On May 07 2010 07:28 MorroW wrote: automatically attack whenever enemy is inside range in rts game is exactly same concept as pull the trigger in fps whenever ur aim is on the enemy head. ofcourse u want to attack but the competition should be to pull the trigger urself. its esport, competition... if u make a game engine that makes all logical decisions for u such as laying perfect storms etc doesnt mean they should go ahead and make it. leave ur fkin new school techniques for the ai instead. mbs cloning autosplit and unlimited selection was enough, top players sit on 130 apm. any easier from here and im not impressed at all by top level play. i hope blizzard fix this because this is the beginning to a whole new level of ai. mothership was a turret and voidray had to be in a special angle but that the actual unit turns around like the phonix. totally ridiculous ;/ nobody enjoys watching top level play if u know that u could play just as good urself. hence why most ppl spent more time watching other play sc1 rather than playing it themselves
ppl who werent familiar with sc1 clearly missing the amazing point of esport
Excuse me, but don't your marines auto-attack stuff when it comes within range, or do you actually have to manually 'pull the trigger'? ^^
When you attack move, yes. And they don't fire out of their ass when you move them back either.
Do you even understand the changes to the phoenix?
EPT
