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Honestly, their inherent abilities should be expensive and time consuming upgrades.
Make roaches 100 hp and no armor and have an upgrade giving them +45 hp and +2 armor (maybe nerf their damage too)
Make marauders have to research slow and +10 bonus against armor
Make immortals have to research harden shields or +30 against armor (making them a tank or a glass cannon, not both)
This allows for masses of tier 1units > tier 1.5 until the upgrades come out
This also allows tier 2 units > tier 1.5 units until the upgrades come out
By the time the upgrades do come out, tier 1 masses will be nullified or the players will have enough of the tier 2 units to fend off tier 1.5 masses (i.e siege tanks w/ siege mode).
This makes fast teching, rushing, and tier 1.5 massing unique strategies that have their pros and cons.
Blizz should end up doing this eventually..
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I would like to see following changes:
roaches -10% slower movement
marauders armor type become bio and armored
Immortal armor rediced from 1 to 0
Tried to make units more unique.
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This thread puts a lot of perspective on the roles of these new units, and after some thought I think a great solution would be to change them ALL to tier 2. Simply put hydras back at tier one and hellions at tier one, while slightly tweaking them to justify them being at tier one. This way massing them early would require early teching which is susceptible to early aggression. If the roach and marauder were at tier two the choice to actually make them would require knowledge of the opponent's build order. As it stands there is just no reason not to make marauders or roaches because they are so good, and only at tier 1 (well, 1.5).
Hard counters to both of those units also exist at tier two (air units). This means if your opponent techs to air quickly, getting the OP hard-counter-to-armor units will likely lose you the game.
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On April 05 2010 11:27 WaveMotion wrote:
yep, but there's no way that they could rebalance everything / maybe add a new unit in a reasonable time if you got rid of the roach.
Well, I think its a bit unreasonable at this point to expect a entirely new unit, but a heavy roach rebalance could do the trick. Armor drastically lowered, given a lowish health regen (4?), health reduced drastically. Marauder health reduced drastically, stims removed. Immortals slightly less health (not armor), 30 flat damage.
Either way if they don't fix this by release their going to have to get around it. I can't forsee the game developing into 2 expansions with ~4 new units with this current imbalanced dynamic existing. Its too broken.
On April 05 2010 11:33 Meta wrote:
This thread puts a lot of perspective on the roles of these new units, and after some thought I think a great solution would be to change them ALL to tier 2. Simply put hydras back at tier one and hellions at tier one, while slightly tweaking them to justify them being at tier one. This way massing them early would require early teching which is susceptible to early aggression. If the roach and marauder were at tier two the choice to actually make them would require knowledge of the opponent's build order. As it stands there is just no reason not to make marauders or roaches because they are so good, and only at tier 1 (well, 1.5).
Hard counters to both of those units also exist at tier two (air units). This means if your opponent techs to air quickly, getting the OP hard-counter-to-armor units will likely lose you the game.
This would also be an ok fix. Remember, the toss who have the ridiculous immortal at t2, while it still impacts the metagame negatively, doesn't do so nearly as much as the t1 marauder.
I really don't like the idea of a t1 flamethrower dude though. Buff reapers and just keep terran a 2 unit t1, its ok, not every race needs 3 t1 units, just like not every race needed 2 t1 units in SC1.
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On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines.
can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines?
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Excellent thread, and good discussion. I think many of the points brought up here are reasons why if the current Beta becomes the game, SC2 will be a very good but not SC BW 1.07+ quality game.
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Half, what is your SC2 Rating?
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On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines?
Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder.
The Roach is a joke of a unit.
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On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines?
...what else is their? Hellions and Reapers are no good (rightfully ofc), that leaves thor and siege tanks. Viking groundmode sucks against them too. Thors aren't cost efficient.
gl winning against zerg only siegetanks and air
I can say 100% positive that TvZ would be almost impossible without raunders. You simply could not EVER apply pressure if they massed roaches.
Explain to me how you'd go about applying pressure against 10 roaches. Everything you have until tanks is hardcountered, and tanks, while great for turtling, have limited uses. Banshees have to be matched by like a single sporerawler.
The zerg simply can expand over the entire map with like 4 spore crawlers, 10 roaches and like 5 hydras. What on earth could you possible expect terran to do?
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On April 05 2010 11:39 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? ...what else is their? Hellions and Reapers are no good (rightfully ofc), that leaves thor and siege tanks. Viking groundmode sucks against them too. gl winning against zerg only making thor and siegetanks :/ And of course air, which is t2.5 and countered by hydras.
Actually Roaches dominate Tanks and Thors. Thor attack is so slow, and the Roach can be so easily mass produced, let's not even talk about burrow+move either.
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everything in terran isnt good against roach, marauder is the only "counter" and it's barely a counter considering it's not as cost effective, 1 marauder vs 1 roach, who wins?
Oh yes, Banshees are good vs roaches_lol
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On April 05 2010 11:38 Mora wrote:
Half, what is your SC2 Rating?
I'm not sure I like where this is going. Shouldn't we attack the argument, and not the poster? Are you gonna dismiss his arguments because your rank is so high and his so low? You are clearly experienced, so tell us your experiences. But don't attack him.
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On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit.
in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper.
So... roaches counter... marines and scvs?
holy fucking broken batman!
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I think Roaches should be 2 supply and have 1 armor to begin with, not 2
Marauders should need to research "slow"
Immortal should need to research their shield defense
I don't know if it would really affect the overall balance toward other units, but seems somewhat fine to me
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I don't think the argument is that roaches are broken, it's that they're really fucking boring.
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On April 05 2010 11:26 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 10:52 JadeFist wrote:
Why are these threads always written by tier 1 icon users... This is a pretty good thread... I don't think it deserves such out of hand dismissal.
I agree I was really surprised with the thought put behind it. I too think the roaches are ridiculous for their cost.
I'm surprised that people are confused by this. He is saying that yes you need to remove the roach but to not break the game the Maruaders and Immortals would have to go too. Which I would not lose a bit of sleep over.
All 3 units make no sense form a logistic or race prescriptive IMO.
Roach: Not used what they were meant for and end up being T1.5 1 supply tanks.
Immortal: Feels like a one trick pony too much...
Maruader: Yeah ranged t1.5 with slow. No problems there.
I agree but I also think the map pool has a lot to do with this issue. let's be honest Blizz sucks at map making....
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On April 05 2010 11:44 ZergZergling wrote:
I don't think the argument is that roaches are broken, it's that they're really fucking boring.
dude 1 supply for roaches is ridiculous
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On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman!
Marines absolutely blow vs Roach. As do Tanks. It's all about unit interaction. You can have 7 roaches easily for every Tank that can be produced. Not only that, but by the time Terran gets a few tanks, you can get burrow + move, and pin the Terran in his base for a very long time while you take the whole map and get 100+ Roaches. The only counter to Roach is Marauder, period.
As for Vikings.....Vikings suck on Ground mode because of cost and speed. Also, good luck getting to Tier 2.5 and surviving without using Marauders, and since you are there, why would you use a unit that gets completely demolished in fights against Roaches?
Here I'll spell it out:
Roaches annihilate:
Marine, Hellion, Reaper, Ghost, Tank, Thor, Viking (Ground mode). In other words, the Roach single handedly destroys every Terran ground unit, except for Marauders.
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On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman!
wat...
Marine/tank would be your only option and it would be insufficient to contain zerg. Defensively, they couldn't break that, but you couldn't stop them from expanding. Marines don't do enough damage versus roaches, who can prevent your tanks from setting up. Then its just mop-up time.
They can expand with half your food army in food to defend.
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like as an aspiring game designer I really feel bad for Blizzard regarding the roach/marauder/immortal. 2 of them are brand new units filling brand new roles that werent in BW. There's got to be a lot of pride going into them. Unfortunately (at least I feel) they are impacting the game negatively. It's gotta suck to be given such a perfect thing as BW and then try to change it around/add units and somehow improve it. It's got to be damn near impossible really.
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EPT
