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On April 05 2010 11:42 Crisium wrote:I'm not sure I like where this is going. Shouldn't we attack the argument, and not the poster? Are you gonna dismiss his arguments because your rank is so high and his so low? You are clearly experienced, so tell us your experiences. But don't attack him.
you misinterpreted my intentions behind that question.
If he is a mediocre player (2000 or lower) i will try to better formulate my thoughts on this matter. If he is a 2400 rating Terran player, i'm obviously missing something that would be better discovered from playing the game than engaging in this debate, and would go and do so.
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Canada13788 Posts
On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman!
The problem isn't that roaches counter at lot of units, it's that they are inordinately good vs almost all units.
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lol 7 roaches for every tank that can be produced is way overboard.... It's prob more like 3-4 roaches for 1 tank
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines?
They aren't all "hard countered", but you won't win games trying to counter roaches with:
- Hellions (once roaches get speed you can't even really kite them)
- Siege tanks (tanks are ok but I don't think going mass tanks is that great vs roaches, especially when they can burrow and cause you to splash kill yourself by popping up next to you).
- Thors (they do fine in small numbers, but once you start getting up to late game with good upgrades and huge numbers, Thors need marauders or they can't keep up)
- Ghosts
- Reapers
If you get a critical mass of tanks they might do OK vs roaches, but they cost a shitload of gas so meh - I'd rather go Thor/Marauder.
I think that's it for ground units? Obviously vikings are not good vs roaches.
There's also the question of WHY I should try to counter roaches with tanks when marauders do a much better job at it, and will let me use my factories for something else (hellions or thors).
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On April 05 2010 11:46 Ideas wrote:
like as an aspiring game designer I really feel bad for Blizzard regarding the roach/marauder/immortal. 2 of them are brand new units filling brand new roles that werent in BW. There's got to be a lot of pride going into them. Unfortunately (at least I feel) they are impacting the game negatively. It's gotta suck to be given such a perfect thing as BW and then try to change it around/add units and somehow improve it. It's got to be damn near impossible really.
Yeah, I kinda empathize for them as well, I know dustin has like a softspot in his heart for roaches lol. He really wants to keep them in, if anything, the best we can hope for is a redux.
And personally I <3 immortals, they're badass  Nowai should they put back in goons.
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On April 05 2010 11:45 Rothbardian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! Marines absolutely blow vs Roach. As do Tanks. It's all about unit interaction. You can have 7 roaches easily for every Tank that can be produced. Not only that, but by the time Terran gets a few tanks, you can get burrow + move, and pin the Terran in his base for a very long time while you take the whole map and get 100+ Roaches. The only counter to Roach is Marauder, period. As for Vikings.....Vikings suck on Ground mode because of cost and speed. Also, good luck getting to Tier 2.5 and surviving without using Marauders, and since you are there, why would you use a unit that gets completely demolished in fights against Roaches?
you responded to my saying "i counter roaches just fine without marauders" with "no".
what?
how do i even respond to that? Like, what alternative do i have other than to say you needed to stop sucking so much shit in sc2 and go learn to play?
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maybe they could just nerf the 3 units altogether a lot without removing them, might make the games much more interesting
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Canada13788 Posts
On April 05 2010 11:47 FrozenArbiter wrote:
EDIT: Wth, this thread is moving super fast, someone already answered this while I was writing o_O
Hey, don't get rid of your post, it had some good points =P
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On April 05 2010 11:46 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! The problem isn't that roaches counter at lot of units, it's that they are inordinately good vs almost all units.
i entirely agree with you.
which is why we should say "roaches could use some tweaking" instead of "roaches break sc2 so absolutely that the game can't possibly grow into esport".
come on.
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On April 05 2010 11:46 Fayth wrote:
lol 7 roaches for every tank that can be produced is way overboard.... It's prob more like 3-4 roaches for 1 tank
I have some replays I can throw your way once I get home to illustrate this point if you want. Once it hits mid-game you can mass Roaches so easily.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 05 2010 11:50 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:46 Jyvblamo wrote:On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! The problem isn't that roaches counter at lot of units, it's that they are inordinately good vs almost all units. i entirely agree with you. which is why we should say "roaches could use some tweaking" instead of "roaches break sc2 so absolutely that the game can't possibly grow into esport". come on.
Maybe I need to re-read the OP, but I don't remember him saying that o_O Didn't he just say roaches are what's causing all the complaints about marauders and immortals (and there are LOTS of complaints about marauders, not so much immortals anymore), because their very existance neccesitates these two units being inordinately strong.
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On April 05 2010 11:46 Fayth wrote:
lol 7 roaches for every tank that can be produced is way overboard.... It's prob more like 3-4 roaches for 1 tank
Hell if I know the ratio, but 7:1 would not surprise me. Tank needs a Factory with Machine Shop. It's 125gas, 3 supply, and 50 build time (irc). Roach, once you get the Den, only needs Larva and is 27 build time. Larva in SC2 are significantly more abundant, thanks to Queens giving you 8 larva for only 50 energy at each Hatchery.
And just compare it to SC1. You will have less Tanks in SC2 due to higher costs. You will have more Roaches than SC1 Hydras thanks to Queens. 7:1 is not seeming unreasonable to me. Perhaps it is even too conservative of an estimate.
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On April 05 2010 11:49 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:45 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! Marines absolutely blow vs Roach. As do Tanks. It's all about unit interaction. You can have 7 roaches easily for every Tank that can be produced. Not only that, but by the time Terran gets a few tanks, you can get burrow + move, and pin the Terran in his base for a very long time while you take the whole map and get 100+ Roaches. The only counter to Roach is Marauder, period. As for Vikings.....Vikings suck on Ground mode because of cost and speed. Also, good luck getting to Tier 2.5 and surviving without using Marauders, and since you are there, why would you use a unit that gets completely demolished in fights against Roaches? you responded to my saying "i counter roaches just fine without marauders" with "no". what? how do i even respond to that? Like, what alternative do i have other than to say you needed to stop sucking so much shit in sc2 and go learn to play?
Yep, I suck. I was only ~2000 (Plat) before reset, and ~1300 atm trying new things out.
How about you give me some replays where the Zerg mass roached and you went something other than Marauders and won.
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On April 05 2010 11:52 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:50 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:46 Jyvblamo wrote:On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! The problem isn't that roaches counter at lot of units, it's that they are inordinately good vs almost all units. i entirely agree with you. which is why we should say "roaches could use some tweaking" instead of "roaches break sc2 so absolutely that the game can't possibly grow into esport". come on. Maybe I need to re-read the OP, but I don't remember him saying that o_O Didn't he just say roaches are what's causing all the complaints about marauders and immortals (and there are LOTS of complaints about marauders, not so much immortals anymore), because their very existance neccesitates these two units being inordinately strong.
Spot on
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A brilliant observation in the OP, I'd never thought of it that way before.
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On April 05 2010 11:53 Rothbardian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:49 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:45 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! Marines absolutely blow vs Roach. As do Tanks. It's all about unit interaction. You can have 7 roaches easily for every Tank that can be produced. Not only that, but by the time Terran gets a few tanks, you can get burrow + move, and pin the Terran in his base for a very long time while you take the whole map and get 100+ Roaches. The only counter to Roach is Marauder, period. As for Vikings.....Vikings suck on Ground mode because of cost and speed. Also, good luck getting to Tier 2.5 and surviving without using Marauders, and since you are there, why would you use a unit that gets completely demolished in fights against Roaches? you responded to my saying "i counter roaches just fine without marauders" with "no". what? how do i even respond to that? Like, what alternative do i have other than to say you needed to stop sucking so much shit in sc2 and go learn to play? Yep, I suck. I was only ~2000 (Plat) before reset, and ~1300 atm trying new things out. How about you give me some replays where the Zerg mass roached and you went something other than Marauders and won.
mass roaches as in ~20 roaches? or mass roaches as in ~60 roaches?
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The OP is right on. Roach/Immortal/Marauder all need to be drastically changed or removed. They do not belong at all.
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On April 05 2010 11:59 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:53 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:49 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:45 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? marauders? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! Marines absolutely blow vs Roach. As do Tanks. It's all about unit interaction. You can have 7 roaches easily for every Tank that can be produced. Not only that, but by the time Terran gets a few tanks, you can get burrow + move, and pin the Terran in his base for a very long time while you take the whole map and get 100+ Roaches. The only counter to Roach is Marauder, period. As for Vikings.....Vikings suck on Ground mode because of cost and speed. Also, good luck getting to Tier 2.5 and surviving without using Marauders, and since you are there, why would you use a unit that gets completely demolished in fights against Roaches? you responded to my saying "i counter roaches just fine without marauders" with "no". what? how do i even respond to that? Like, what alternative do i have other than to say you needed to stop sucking so much shit in sc2 and go learn to play? Yep, I suck. I was only ~2000 (Plat) before reset, and ~1300 atm trying new things out. How about you give me some replays where the Zerg mass roached and you went something other than Marauders and won. mass roaches as in ~20 roaches? or mass roaches as in ~60 roaches?
Why does it matter? If you can't beat either of them without marauders doesn't that necessitate
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I lost a game at 140-160 supply where the zerg went 16 hatch at natural, which I think gave him more of an economic advantage even though I also FE'd. I did some hellion harass and killed about 15 drones. After that, he pushed out with probably 50+ roaches with baneling/mutalisk support and steamrolled my mainly tank/MMM army. the banelings softened up the front so much that his roach horde easily cleaned up. I watched the replay and he was only about 10 food ahead of me at the time.
So mass roaches means 50+, which is easily attainable in under 15-20 minutes.
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I completely agree, wow i just thought it was the lack of defensive/ positioning units but now i see its just the roach/immortal/marauder, they completely screw up the balance of starcraft.
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EPT
