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I agree with the OP.
I definitely agree that if roaches and marauders were removed from SC2 and it was rebalanced, it would be a way better game. Roaches and marauders are like the huntresses of SC2. Ranged Gtg only units that have to be overpowered because of their lack of versatility.
Zerg should not have a high HP t1 tank unit. It is completely the opposite of their racial identity.
I think if anyone envisions what SC2 would be like without the roach and marauder, they will be able to envision something much more exciting, dynamic, and variable.
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On April 05 2010 12:13 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 12:02 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:59 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:53 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:49 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:45 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:
[quote]
Uh yeah...
I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran.
I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? marauders? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! Marines absolutely blow vs Roach. As do Tanks. It's all about unit interaction. You can have 7 roaches easily for every Tank that can be produced. Not only that, but by the time Terran gets a few tanks, you can get burrow + move, and pin the Terran in his base for a very long time while you take the whole map and get 100+ Roaches. The only counter to Roach is Marauder, period. As for Vikings.....Vikings suck on Ground mode because of cost and speed. Also, good luck getting to Tier 2.5 and surviving without using Marauders, and since you are there, why would you use a unit that gets completely demolished in fights against Roaches? you responded to my saying "i counter roaches just fine without marauders" with "no". what? how do i even respond to that? Like, what alternative do i have other than to say you needed to stop sucking so much shit in sc2 and go learn to play? Yep, I suck. I was only ~2000 (Plat) before reset, and ~1300 atm trying new things out. How about you give me some replays where the Zerg mass roached and you went something other than Marauders and won. mass roaches as in ~20 roaches? or mass roaches as in ~60 roaches? Why does it matter? If you can't beat either of them without marauders doesn't that necessitate it matters because i have several replays of beating 1800~2000 rated zergs who make 20 or so roaches, without using mass marauders (it's not uncommon for me to make 1-2 of them). I've never played a zerg who has massed much more than 20 though: ergo cannot show replays of this.
Well, the reason why they don't make more then 20 supply worth is because they acknowledge they would get screwed hard if you switched marauder.
Yeah, the language is a bit strong, a tad bit sensationalist, but imho the underlying message is 100% true and authentic.
"Remake" may not be necessary. "Major rebalancing?" Probably.
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On April 05 2010 12:18 Meta wrote:
As bias as he made his post sound, the point he makes is still very valid. The match-up that he's really talking about here is TvP. The roach forces the marauder and immortal to be in the game. Everybody has been hearing about how broken the marauder seems to be in TvP, and everybody who's tried to go mech (the alternative ground army to marauders) in TvP knows immortals steamroll it. "Standard" TvP is stale because the units that each race needs to hard-counter roaches also hard-counter a large portion of what the other race could make. Marauders force the protoss to tech early to HT's or colossus, and the threat of an immediate switch to immortals renders mech completely unviable.
And it's all because of the roach.
i don't agree. Immortals are not the only counter to the roach. Therefore their existence in TvP is not caused by the roach.
Which means the fault of TvP mech lies on the immortal, not the roach.
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On April 05 2010 12:24 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 12:13 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 12:02 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:59 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:53 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:49 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:45 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:
[quote]
can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? marauders? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! Marines absolutely blow vs Roach. As do Tanks. It's all about unit interaction. You can have 7 roaches easily for every Tank that can be produced. Not only that, but by the time Terran gets a few tanks, you can get burrow + move, and pin the Terran in his base for a very long time while you take the whole map and get 100+ Roaches. The only counter to Roach is Marauder, period. As for Vikings.....Vikings suck on Ground mode because of cost and speed. Also, good luck getting to Tier 2.5 and surviving without using Marauders, and since you are there, why would you use a unit that gets completely demolished in fights against Roaches? you responded to my saying "i counter roaches just fine without marauders" with "no". what? how do i even respond to that? Like, what alternative do i have other than to say you needed to stop sucking so much shit in sc2 and go learn to play? Yep, I suck. I was only ~2000 (Plat) before reset, and ~1300 atm trying new things out. How about you give me some replays where the Zerg mass roached and you went something other than Marauders and won. mass roaches as in ~20 roaches? or mass roaches as in ~60 roaches? Why does it matter? If you can't beat either of them without marauders doesn't that necessitate it matters because i have several replays of beating 1800~2000 rated zergs who make 20 or so roaches, without using mass marauders (it's not uncommon for me to make 1-2 of them). I've never played a zerg who has massed much more than 20 though: ergo cannot show replays of this. Well, the reason why they don't make more then 20 supply worth is because they acknowledge they would get screwed hard if you switched marauder. Yeah, the language is a bit strong, a tad bit sensationalist, but imho the underlying message is 100% true and authentic. "Remake" may not be necessary. "Major rebalancing?" Probably.
i don't consider -1 armour, -15hp 'major rebalancing'.
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On April 05 2010 12:24 pzea469 wrote:On April 05 2010 12:13 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 12:12 pzea469 wrote:
they should make immortals more interesting by bringing back the whole weak units dont activate their shield thing. So if a marine attacks an immortal, the damage would subtract from its health, completely skipping the shield. Shield would still be at full.
For marauders, i really like the idea of slow being an upgrade that you have to research. I also think that they shouldn't be allowed to stim. like reapers.
As for roaches. Make them have a lot less health but bring back their fast regeneration so you have to focus fire but they go down pretty quickly.
thoughts? Cool idea, tho I don't know if it's really needed in terms of balance (i.e the immortal isn't really imbalanced right now).
Well i think the problem with immortal is that it directly counters mech, which is fine, but they are also not bad to have in your army when fighting infantry, which leads to toss players getting immortals no matter what. If Immortals were really weak vs infantry then it would cause toss users to think twice about investing soo much into immortals and have to scout better. If terran goes mech, he counters with immortals, terran sees immortals, he counters with marines, protoss see marines, he counters with collossus or storm, and so on.
I don't like this at all. Without blathering about the nonexistent concept of "hardcounters" (well, they do exist, I even mention it in my post, but they don't exist in the same level some people think they do), the central idea to that is your changing immortals from a general utility unit to a niche unit.
Do you want that? Moreover, its a niche unit to specifically counter heavy mech,
That really doesn't solve anything lol.
I think a 25-30 damage flat would really be your best bet. A unit doesn't need both absurd dps and hardened shields. Shave off a large chunk of roach HP and armor (2->1?), decrease damage a bit to encourage lings for dps, buff ling dps by a tad. Give ~4 regen. Shave off a large chunk of marauder HP OR remove stims.
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On April 05 2010 12:13 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 12:02 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:59 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:53 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:49 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:45 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:
[quote]
Uh yeah...
I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran.
I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? marauders? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! Marines absolutely blow vs Roach. As do Tanks. It's all about unit interaction. You can have 7 roaches easily for every Tank that can be produced. Not only that, but by the time Terran gets a few tanks, you can get burrow + move, and pin the Terran in his base for a very long time while you take the whole map and get 100+ Roaches. The only counter to Roach is Marauder, period. As for Vikings.....Vikings suck on Ground mode because of cost and speed. Also, good luck getting to Tier 2.5 and surviving without using Marauders, and since you are there, why would you use a unit that gets completely demolished in fights against Roaches? you responded to my saying "i counter roaches just fine without marauders" with "no". what? how do i even respond to that? Like, what alternative do i have other than to say you needed to stop sucking so much shit in sc2 and go learn to play? Yep, I suck. I was only ~2000 (Plat) before reset, and ~1300 atm trying new things out. How about you give me some replays where the Zerg mass roached and you went something other than Marauders and won. mass roaches as in ~20 roaches? or mass roaches as in ~60 roaches? Why does it matter? If you can't beat either of them without marauders doesn't that necessitate it matters because i have several replays of beating 1800~2000 rated zergs who make 20 or so roaches, without using mass marauders (it's not uncommon for me to make 1-2 of them). I've never played a zerg who has massed much more than 20 though: ergo cannot show replays of this.
A win in this case ends up meaning less than the battles themselves do. For all we know you could have killed a ton of drones with Hellion harass and then steamrolled with a much larger (albeit less efficient) army. You're so quick to mention all of these ratings and win statistics, but what does it really even mean?
You say you never built Marauders against Zerg (which I guess means you don't mass them, but you don't need mass Marauders if the Zerg isn't massing Roaches... I digress) and yet you still had a high win%. What were you doing that is so special that seems to defy nearly everything I've ever experienced or read about TvZ?
You also say you never build an Immortal in PvZ and still have a high win%. Doing what? Are you going proxy 2gate every other game? Hiding a few Void Rays?
I'm sorry, but win% and rating simply do not imply you have a solid strategy to face these specific units in a straight up battle, especially in a macro game (nor does it mean you actually don't use Marauders/Immortals, we have to take your word for that). It would make this thread a lot more civil if you actually mentioned what strategies you use instead.
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On April 05 2010 11:19 Mora wrote:
neat thread
i was #1 in my platinum division as terran (2000 rating), and i almost never made marauders against zerg.
i switched to toss after the reset, and last time i logged on (wednesday) i was #4 in my platinum division, and i've found roaches one of the easiest units to counter. I've also never made a single immortal vs zerg. PvZ is my strongest matchup, at about 80% winnage.
Am i the only person who finds Stalkers a ridiculously awesome counter to roaches?
needless to say, i don't agree with the OP. Roaches/Marauders/Immortals could use some tuning, for sure, but 'broken' is missing the mark.
I've been sayin' it for I don't know how long, but eventually you just let the noobs whine. People complain marauders are too good cuz they can kill a zealot "without getting hit." Well guess what? You know those units that suck? Stalkers? And you know those units that are OP? Roaches? Well, stalkers can kill those without getting hit!
And you know that other unit that zerg has that is OP and toss can do nothing to counter? Mutas? With a lot of stalkers on the field, you're already countering them!
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What is with these MASSIVE whine threads...I think there have been a ton of threads on roaches already..you didnt need to make a new thread...just post in an existing one FFS.
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On April 05 2010 12:29 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:19 Mora wrote:
neat thread
i was #1 in my platinum division as terran (2000 rating), and i almost never made marauders against zerg.
i switched to toss after the reset, and last time i logged on (wednesday) i was #4 in my platinum division, and i've found roaches one of the easiest units to counter. I've also never made a single immortal vs zerg. PvZ is my strongest matchup, at about 80% winnage.
Am i the only person who finds Stalkers a ridiculously awesome counter to roaches?
needless to say, i don't agree with the OP. Roaches/Marauders/Immortals could use some tuning, for sure, but 'broken' is missing the mark. I've been sayin' it for I don't know how long, but eventually you just let the noobs whine. People complain marauders are too good cuz they can kill a zealot "without getting hit." Well guess what? You know those units that suck? Stalkers? And you know those units that are OP? Roaches? Well, stalkers can kill those without getting hit! And you know that other unit that zerg has that is OP and toss can do nothing to counter? Mutas? With a lot of stalkers on the field, you're already countering them!
Stalkers move slower then roaches with speed. Also, you won't be able to mount an offensive against mass roaches with only stalkers. You may be able to stop an attack, but they can contain+expand.
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Stalkers are alright vs roaches but you can't kite them all day, a unit that counter a unit based on kiting is a bit too situational and won't always work imo.
Great post OP, I really like what you said and it makes a lot of sense. I hope blizzard reads your post and buts it in front of dustin brodwer's nose on monday morning 
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I agree with OP. Also, roaches are such a BORING unit to use - only a few short tweaks away from a hydra. Every unit for a given race in BW is so different! comparatively, look at roach/hydra, marine/marauder, and maybe even stalker/immortal. each pair has a different function, air/ground attack, but they feel way too alike...
My focus is on fun and interesting unit comps, not winrate balance - making all the races 50% against each other is a lot easier. the way the early game kinda revolves around roaches and their counters is pretty meh
as for particular changes, I really like some of these suggestions, like giving roach 1 armor, less health, and fast regen to start.
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The Roach seems to have missed their target in terms of their role.
Instead of being a miniature damage-sponge unit for the Zerg army, they are an all around GvG unit.
I know it's unlikely, but I feel like it would be great if the Roach was redone to more properly fit it's role. It's HP is fine, but what if it's attack was lowered but had a damage-stacking or armor-reducing mechanic so players would actually have a reason to kill the damage sponge before killing higher damage-dealing units.
TLDR: Roaches need lower damage, but replaced with a mechanic that somehow makes the opponent still want to kill it first, retaining it's damage-sponge role.
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On April 05 2010 12:27 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 12:24 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 12:13 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 12:02 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:59 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:53 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:49 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:45 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:
[quote]
marauders?
Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder.
The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! Marines absolutely blow vs Roach. As do Tanks. It's all about unit interaction. You can have 7 roaches easily for every Tank that can be produced. Not only that, but by the time Terran gets a few tanks, you can get burrow + move, and pin the Terran in his base for a very long time while you take the whole map and get 100+ Roaches. The only counter to Roach is Marauder, period. As for Vikings.....Vikings suck on Ground mode because of cost and speed. Also, good luck getting to Tier 2.5 and surviving without using Marauders, and since you are there, why would you use a unit that gets completely demolished in fights against Roaches? you responded to my saying "i counter roaches just fine without marauders" with "no". what? how do i even respond to that? Like, what alternative do i have other than to say you needed to stop sucking so much shit in sc2 and go learn to play? Yep, I suck. I was only ~2000 (Plat) before reset, and ~1300 atm trying new things out. How about you give me some replays where the Zerg mass roached and you went something other than Marauders and won. mass roaches as in ~20 roaches? or mass roaches as in ~60 roaches? Why does it matter? If you can't beat either of them without marauders doesn't that necessitate it matters because i have several replays of beating 1800~2000 rated zergs who make 20 or so roaches, without using mass marauders (it's not uncommon for me to make 1-2 of them). I've never played a zerg who has massed much more than 20 though: ergo cannot show replays of this. Well, the reason why they don't make more then 20 supply worth is because they acknowledge they would get screwed hard if you switched marauder. Yeah, the language is a bit strong, a tad bit sensationalist, but imho the underlying message is 100% true and authentic. "Remake" may not be necessary. "Major rebalancing?" Probably. i don't consider -1 armour, -15hp 'major rebalancing'.
-50 HP more like it, +4 constant regen so its still a roach, slight dps change, -1 armor, slightly slower.
I consider that a major rebalancing.
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lol this is such an awesome thread i love the op they should be imba but they arent thats a funny statement not stating my opionion, just saying you know how much money it would cost blizzard, probably, to change this?
anyway i think pvz is good tvp and zvt idk about those two and zvz is just dumb
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I agree with OP.
I think they should buff stalkers and nerf immortals. Currently I get immortals every game PvT or PvP no matter what, just because they do fine against infantry and rape armored units. There's no disadvantage to getting them. Terran are always going to get marauders and toss are always going to get stalkers and other armored units. Z will often get roaches so I make some in that matchup too (but not as many, because collosi are better usually).
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On April 05 2010 12:28 QibingZero wrote:
A win in this case ends up meaning less than the battles themselves do. For all we know you could have killed a ton of drones with Hellion harass and then steamrolled with a much larger (albeit less efficient) army. You're so quick to mention all of these ratings and win statistics, but what does it really even mean?
You say you never built Marauders against Zerg (which I guess means you don't mass them, but you don't need mass Marauders if the Zerg isn't massing Roaches... I digress) and yet you still had a high win%. What were you doing that is so special that seems to defy nearly everything I've ever experienced or read about TvZ?
You also say you never build an Immortal in PvZ and still have a high win%. Doing what? Are you going proxy 2gate every other game? Hiding a few Void Rays?
I'm sorry, but win% and rating simply do not imply you have a solid strategy to face these specific units in a straight up battle, especially in a macro game (nor does it mean you actually don't use Marauders/Immortals, we have to take your word for that). It would make this thread a lot more civil if you actually mentioned what strategies you use instead.
i only mentioned my win% and rating because when i say 'i disagree that these units are necessary', and people tell me i'm wrong, a paradox ensues where i have reached that rating doing exactly as i said i did.
i mentioned stalkers being a good counter to roaches more times than i've mentioned my pvz win percentage. I've never proxy gated (though i certainly have nothing against doing so). I've busted out a fast voidray in a few games, it's true.
I switch up what i do quite frequently, but i've found Terran air units particular fun. 2 viking opening into upgraded marines/tanks has worked fairly solidly for me. Most of the replays i would show would be exactly that. Upgraded marines/tanks do just fine vs roaches.
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On April 05 2010 10:45 Half wrote:
Roaches are a unit that costs 75 minerals, 25 gas, yet somehow do the most basic ranged DPS in the entirety of T1. They have 145 health, the highest per cost, and the highest period outside of toss.
Errr Iono if this counts but autoturrets cost 50 energy and they have 150 hp I think. aand they do more damage ;P
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I think extra research to make all the "Trinity" to be their current form would change the game drastically, for the better imo. For instance,(I'm a terran player so it's easiest to come up with terran examples) as terran, you wouldn't have to fear staying marines when the zerg just rolls you over with roaches. This would also set up a small timing window where each party can set up proper tech. Going marauders against zerg without the concussion missles research would just completely get steam rolled by lings. Of course zerg can still go roach plus their armor upgrade or whatever, but they don't have to.
For PvT, this is also true for immortals where I feel protoss is too attached to going robo, if shield upgrade requires a research then, for example, a mech by a terran is viable. But from protoss' perspective, zealots will become more powerful early game and a twilight tech would make them even better.
Just quickly thinking through it, it seems like a pretty good idea. Of course, we won't know until blizzard tries it. Of course if they do this, balance with other units will also be offset too.. :x
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On April 05 2010 12:33 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 12:27 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 12:24 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 12:13 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 12:02 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:59 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:53 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:49 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:45 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:
[quote]
in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper.
So... roaches counter... marines and scvs?
holy fucking broken batman! Marines absolutely blow vs Roach. As do Tanks. It's all about unit interaction. You can have 7 roaches easily for every Tank that can be produced. Not only that, but by the time Terran gets a few tanks, you can get burrow + move, and pin the Terran in his base for a very long time while you take the whole map and get 100+ Roaches. The only counter to Roach is Marauder, period. As for Vikings.....Vikings suck on Ground mode because of cost and speed. Also, good luck getting to Tier 2.5 and surviving without using Marauders, and since you are there, why would you use a unit that gets completely demolished in fights against Roaches? you responded to my saying "i counter roaches just fine without marauders" with "no". what? how do i even respond to that? Like, what alternative do i have other than to say you needed to stop sucking so much shit in sc2 and go learn to play? Yep, I suck. I was only ~2000 (Plat) before reset, and ~1300 atm trying new things out. How about you give me some replays where the Zerg mass roached and you went something other than Marauders and won. mass roaches as in ~20 roaches? or mass roaches as in ~60 roaches? Why does it matter? If you can't beat either of them without marauders doesn't that necessitate it matters because i have several replays of beating 1800~2000 rated zergs who make 20 or so roaches, without using mass marauders (it's not uncommon for me to make 1-2 of them). I've never played a zerg who has massed much more than 20 though: ergo cannot show replays of this. Well, the reason why they don't make more then 20 supply worth is because they acknowledge they would get screwed hard if you switched marauder. Yeah, the language is a bit strong, a tad bit sensationalist, but imho the underlying message is 100% true and authentic. "Remake" may not be necessary. "Major rebalancing?" Probably. i don't consider -1 armour, -15hp 'major rebalancing'. -50 HP more like it, +4 constant regen so its still a roach, slight dps change, -1 armor, slightly slower. I consider that a major rebalancing.
they would be completely useless with those stats.
you honestly think they're that overpowered? Thank god the closest you'll ever get to game design is this forum.
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If roaches were removed I would be so happy.
Zvz is so borked right now because of it
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EPT
