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On April 05 2010 11:46 Ideas wrote:
like as an aspiring game designer I really feel bad for Blizzard regarding the roach/marauder/immortal. 2 of them are brand new units filling brand new roles that werent in BW. There's got to be a lot of pride going into them. Unfortunately (at least I feel) they are impacting the game negatively. It's gotta suck to be given such a perfect thing as BW and then try to change it around/add units and somehow improve it. It's got to be damn near impossible really.
i really find it hard to believe a lot of thought have been put in a unit titled roach.
feels like an afterthought tbh.
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On April 05 2010 11:50 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:46 Jyvblamo wrote:On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! The problem isn't that roaches counter at lot of units, it's that they are inordinately good vs almost all units. i entirely agree with you. which is why we should say "roaches could use some tweaking" instead of "roaches break sc2 so absolutely that the game can't possibly grow into esport". come on.
The point is valid, even through your exaggerations. The idea is not 'Roaches need some tweaking'; it's that Roaches force Marauders and Immortals to exist in their current form, meaning that all three need 'some tweaking'.
As for TvRoaches, Marauders really are the best answer. It's not that Tanks or Thors are bad against Roaches specifically (though the rest of the Terran ground units definitely are), it's that Marauders are actually able to be produced in sufficient levels to counter them. It doesn't hurt that Marauders are also not terrible against other zerg ground units, and have decent mobility post-stim/medivac.
Your previous post still boggles me. You dance around to try to say Roaches don't counter Reapers/Hellions because they're not as mobile, and you also say Vikings with micro do well against Roaches. What does that even mean? Are you talking about Vikings doing hit and runs on mineral lines and lifting to the air when the Roaches arrive? Are we arbitrarily limiting the zerg into only building Roaches or something?
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Sadly, I have to agree. Those three units have made SC a much more boring game.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Guh, why do people make these monster claims with over the top language? I can't take a thesis like this seriously when it is so absolute.
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On April 05 2010 11:19 Mora wrote:
neat thread
i was #1 in my platinum division as terran (2000 rating), and i almost never made marauders against zerg.
i switched to toss after the reset, and last time i logged on (wednesday) i was #4 in my platinum division, and i've found roaches one of the easiest units to counter. I've also never made a single immortal vs zerg. PvZ is my strongest matchup, at about 80% winnage.
Am i the only person who finds Stalkers a ridiculously awesome counter to roaches?
needless to say, i don't agree with the OP. Roaches/Marauders/Immortals could use some tuning, for sure, but 'broken' is missing the mark.
On April 05 2010 11:46 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:42 Crisium wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Mora wrote:
Half, what is your SC2 Rating? I'm not sure I like where this is going. Shouldn't we attack the argument, and not the poster? Are you gonna dismiss his arguments because your rank is so high and his so low? You are clearly experienced, so tell us your experiences. But don't attack him. you misinterpreted my intentions behind that question. If he is a mediocre player (2000 or lower) i will try to better formulate my thoughts on this matter. If he is a 2400 rating Terran player, i'm obviously missing something that would be better discovered from playing the game than engaging in this debate, and would go and do so.
solid.
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On April 05 2010 12:06 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:46 Ideas wrote:
like as an aspiring game designer I really feel bad for Blizzard regarding the roach/marauder/immortal. 2 of them are brand new units filling brand new roles that werent in BW. There's got to be a lot of pride going into them. Unfortunately (at least I feel) they are impacting the game negatively. It's gotta suck to be given such a perfect thing as BW and then try to change it around/add units and somehow improve it. It's got to be damn near impossible really. i really find it hard to believe a lot of thought have been put in a unit titled roach. feels like an afterthought tbh.
have you EVER heard browder talk about the roach? he fucking loves that shit death lol
and immediately after hearing it was called the roach I thought it was just a placeholder name and would be given a real zerg name without a month or 2. 2 years later...
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On April 05 2010 12:08 Kennigit wrote:
Guh, why do people make these monster claims ~_~?
because we're playing the game, you got a key?
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On April 05 2010 11:52 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:50 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:46 Jyvblamo wrote:
The problem isn't that roaches counter at lot of units, it's that they are inordinately good vs almost all units. i entirely agree with you. which is why we should say "roaches could use some tweaking" instead of "roaches break sc2 so absolutely that the game can't possibly grow into esport". come on. Maybe I need to re-read the OP, but I don't remember him saying that o_O Didn't he just say roaches are what's causing all the complaints about marauders and immortals (and there are LOTS of complaints about marauders, not so much immortals anymore), because their very existance neccesitates these two units being inordinately strong.
i'll save you the trouble of re-reading the OP and will highlight the hyperbolic bits.
...almost all of SC2s current balance problems can be pinpointed on the roach...
...completely misguided unit...
...incredibly absurd, ridiculous unit is overpowered...
... terran would literally lose every game against the zerg...
...the roaches role is screwed up...
...Zerg were not design to host a 145 2 armor 16 damage unit for 75 minerals and 25 gas...
...answer to 90% of SC2s current gameplay...
...Remove it, or drastically rework it...
...rebalance the game...
yes. i believe these statements are a little much for a unit that should have its armor reduced by 1 and hp reduced by 10~20. (or other equally minor alternative)
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OP, I've been thinking the same thing since I started playing the beta, basically. I didn't know how to put it into words, so thank you.
I agree completely. Roaches are an incredibly powerful unit. That does not mean that it imbalances matchups. However, it does mean that Blizzard had to create other units for the two races that were designed specifically to make the Roach not OP. I believe this was a mistake on Blizzard's part. If the Roach was turned down, then the Marauder and Immortal could in turn be turned down, and the rest of the game could get balanced from there.
In the end, you wouldn't be so locked into one strategy (PvZ == Protoss has to fast tech to Immortals, no if's and's or but's) and multiple other things that would make the game more exciting and less predictable.
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they should make immortals more interesting by bringing back the whole weak units dont activate their shield thing. So if a marine attacks an immortal, the damage would subtract from its health, completely skipping the shield. Shield would still be at full.
For marauders, i really like the idea of slow being an upgrade that you have to research. I also think that they shouldn't be allowed to stim. like reapers.
As for roaches. Make them have a lot less health but bring back their fast regeneration so you have to focus fire but they go down pretty quickly.
thoughts?
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On April 05 2010 12:02 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:59 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:53 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:49 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:45 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:43 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:38 Rothbardian wrote:On April 05 2010 11:35 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:On April 05 2010 11:14 Skyze wrote:
Uhh.. if Roach is the problem to the whole SC2 Balance.. how come PvT is still so bullshit? No roachs in PvT, yet T always wins with ease massing one unit still.
You are right about one thing though, The whole problem in SC2's balance does rely in one unit.. MARAUDERS. They are bio speed tanks with slow. Once they fix them, and fix thors, the game is going to be almost perfect. Uh yeah... I explained that. Maraunders only exist as they do because they are a necessity against roaches. If you nerfed marauders to be more reasonable against toss, roaches would steamroll terran. I mean seriously. Two armor? Really? gl with those marines. can you make me a list of all the terran units that are hard-countered by the roach, not including marines? marauders? Every Terran unit except Air/Marauder. If the Zerg is semi-competent he'll throw in a few Hydra and decimate your air. So, basically we are back to square one; Marauder. The Roach is a joke of a unit. in my experience marines/tanks do just fine against roaches. banshees do well vs roaches. vikings with micro do well against roaches. Reapers do not counter roaches (and they shouldn't), but they certainly don't have a hard time avoiding them. Hellions are in the same boat as the reaper. So... roaches counter... marines and scvs? holy fucking broken batman! Marines absolutely blow vs Roach. As do Tanks. It's all about unit interaction. You can have 7 roaches easily for every Tank that can be produced. Not only that, but by the time Terran gets a few tanks, you can get burrow + move, and pin the Terran in his base for a very long time while you take the whole map and get 100+ Roaches. The only counter to Roach is Marauder, period. As for Vikings.....Vikings suck on Ground mode because of cost and speed. Also, good luck getting to Tier 2.5 and surviving without using Marauders, and since you are there, why would you use a unit that gets completely demolished in fights against Roaches? you responded to my saying "i counter roaches just fine without marauders" with "no". what? how do i even respond to that? Like, what alternative do i have other than to say you needed to stop sucking so much shit in sc2 and go learn to play? Yep, I suck. I was only ~2000 (Plat) before reset, and ~1300 atm trying new things out. How about you give me some replays where the Zerg mass roached and you went something other than Marauders and won. mass roaches as in ~20 roaches? or mass roaches as in ~60 roaches? Why does it matter? If you can't beat either of them without marauders doesn't that necessitate
it matters because i have several replays of beating 1800~2000 rated zergs who make 20 or so roaches, without using mass marauders (it's not uncommon for me to make 1-2 of them).
I've never played a zerg who has massed much more than 20 though: ergo cannot show replays of this.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 05 2010 12:11 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:52 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 05 2010 11:50 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:46 Jyvblamo wrote:
The problem isn't that roaches counter at lot of units, it's that they are inordinately good vs almost all units. i entirely agree with you. which is why we should say "roaches could use some tweaking" instead of "roaches break sc2 so absolutely that the game can't possibly grow into esport". come on. Maybe I need to re-read the OP, but I don't remember him saying that o_O Didn't he just say roaches are what's causing all the complaints about marauders and immortals (and there are LOTS of complaints about marauders, not so much immortals anymore), because their very existance neccesitates these two units being inordinately strong. i'll save you the trouble of re-reading the OP and will highlight the hyperbolic bits. Show nested quote +Almost all of SC2s current balance problems can be pinpointed on the roach...
...completely misguided unit...
...incredibly absurd, ridiculous unit is overpowered...
... terran would literally lose every game against the zerg...
...the roaches role is screwed up...
...Zerg were not design to host a 145 2 armor 16 damage unit for 75 minerals and 25 gas...
...answer to 90% of SC2s current gameplay...
...Remove it, or drastically rework it...
...rebalance the game... yes. i believe these statements are a little much for a unit that should have its armor reduced by 1 and hp reduced by 10~20. (or other equally minor alternative)
Ok, the language is a bit strong but the main message is fine.
On April 05 2010 12:12 pzea469 wrote:
they should make immortals more interesting by bringing back the whole weak units dont activate their shield thing. So if a marine attacks an immortal, the damage would subtract from its health, completely skipping the shield. Shield would still be at full.
For marauders, i really like the idea of slow being an upgrade that you have to research. I also think that they shouldn't be allowed to stim. like reapers.
As for roaches. Make them have a lot less health but bring back their fast regeneration so you have to focus fire but they go down pretty quickly.
thoughts?
Cool idea, tho I don't know if it's really needed in terms of balance (i.e the immortal isn't really imbalanced right now).
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On April 05 2010 10:59 Angra wrote:
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if removing roaches, marauders and immortals from the game made it 10x more interesting and fun to play/watch.
maybe its the best option. are really boring units.
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You really need roaches to fight an early game zealot attack. Hydras come too late and lings for some reason suck vs lots.
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United States6225 Posts
On April 05 2010 12:11 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:52 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 05 2010 11:50 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:46 Jyvblamo wrote:
The problem isn't that roaches counter at lot of units, it's that they are inordinately good vs almost all units. i entirely agree with you. which is why we should say "roaches could use some tweaking" instead of "roaches break sc2 so absolutely that the game can't possibly grow into esport". come on. Maybe I need to re-read the OP, but I don't remember him saying that o_O Didn't he just say roaches are what's causing all the complaints about marauders and immortals (and there are LOTS of complaints about marauders, not so much immortals anymore), because their very existance neccesitates these two units being inordinately strong. i'll save you the trouble of re-reading the OP and will highlight the hyperbolic bits. Show nested quote +
...almost all of SC2s current balance problems can be pinpointed on the roach...
...completely misguided unit...
...incredibly absurd, ridiculous unit is overpowered...
... terran would literally lose every game against the zerg...
...the roaches role is screwed up...
...Zerg were not design to host a 145 2 armor 16 damage unit for 75 minerals and 25 gas...
...answer to 90% of SC2s current gameplay...
...Remove it, or drastically rework it...
...rebalance the game...
yes. i believe these statements are a little much for a unit that should have its armor reduced by 1 and hp reduced by 10~20. (or other equally minor alternative)
As bias as he made his post sound, the point he makes is still very valid. The match-up that he's really talking about here is TvP. The roach forces the marauder and immortal to be in the game. Everybody has been hearing about how broken the marauder seems to be in TvP, and everybody who's tried to go mech (the alternative ground army to marauders) in TvP knows immortals steamroll it. "Standard" TvP is stale because the units that each race needs to hard-counter roaches also hard-counter a large portion of what the other race could make. Marauders force the protoss to tech early to HT's or colossus, and the threat of an immediate switch to immortals renders mech completely unviable.
And it's all because of the roach.
In my opinion I still think moving the marauder and roach to tier two is a great option. I don't really mind mech being useless in TvP, as bio was useless in SC1 and nobody seemed to mind. Plus, starport units really pack a punch in the matchup as well so mid-late game TvP would still be diverse.
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On April 05 2010 12:13 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 12:11 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:52 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 05 2010 11:50 Mora wrote:On April 05 2010 11:46 Jyvblamo wrote:
The problem isn't that roaches counter at lot of units, it's that they are inordinately good vs almost all units. i entirely agree with you. which is why we should say "roaches could use some tweaking" instead of "roaches break sc2 so absolutely that the game can't possibly grow into esport". come on. Maybe I need to re-read the OP, but I don't remember him saying that o_O Didn't he just say roaches are what's causing all the complaints about marauders and immortals (and there are LOTS of complaints about marauders, not so much immortals anymore), because their very existance neccesitates these two units being inordinately strong. i'll save you the trouble of re-reading the OP and will highlight the hyperbolic bits. Almost all of SC2s current balance problems can be pinpointed on the roach...
...completely misguided unit...
...incredibly absurd, ridiculous unit is overpowered...
... terran would literally lose every game against the zerg...
...the roaches role is screwed up...
...Zerg were not design to host a 145 2 armor 16 damage unit for 75 minerals and 25 gas...
...answer to 90% of SC2s current gameplay...
...Remove it, or drastically rework it...
...rebalance the game... yes. i believe these statements are a little much for a unit that should have its armor reduced by 1 and hp reduced by 10~20. (or other equally minor alternative) Ok, the language is a bit strong but the main message is fine.
the main message banks on the unit being 'completely out of place'. It's no more out of place than cannons without their hp buff, voidrays and reapers sucking balls, etc.
it's just one of many minor balance concerns with sc2.
the immortal and marauder do not exist solely to counter the roach, since these units counter other things that they counter (and to be honest, i've a hunch that immortals were designed to hard-counter tanks, not roaches. Infact, if anyone would like to bet what was created first - the roach or the immortal, i''ll take the bet on the immortal being created first!)
i don't even understand why the immortal is being thrown into this analysis.
Roaches counter backbone units.
Mauraders counter backbone units (and everything else, for that matter).
Immortals counter... roaches, mauraders (not really), and tanks?
Nope, sorry. As my first response noted, i found the original post very neat. There was effort and thought put into his post, but i'm not certain i agree!
The problems with the roach are relatively easy to fix. And are minor compared to the problems with marauders!
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what's worse is Marauder isn't even a "Hard-counter" to roaches, it's only that it's the only viable unit to use so that you don't consistently die to roaches, it's not a hard counter like immortal is to tank
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hmm, i'd have to think about this more, but i'm inclined to agree right now with every point made in the OP.
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I'm heavy on board with this. I'm not good enough to say with authority that these units are wrong, but they aren't fun for me. I guess that's all I'm qualified to say 
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On April 05 2010 12:13 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 05 2010 12:12 pzea469 wrote:Show nested quote +they should make immortals more interesting by bringing back the whole weak units dont activate their shield thing. So if a marine attacks an immortal, the damage would subtract from its health, completely skipping the shield. Shield would still be at full.
For marauders, i really like the idea of slow being an upgrade that you have to research. I also think that they shouldn't be allowed to stim. like reapers.
As for roaches. Make them have a lot less health but bring back their fast regeneration so you have to focus fire but they go down pretty quickly.
thoughts?
Cool idea, tho I don't know if it's really needed in terms of balance (i.e the immortal isn't really imbalanced right now).
Well i think the problem with immortal is that it directly counters mech, which is fine, but they are also not bad to have in your army when fighting infantry, which leads to toss players getting immortals no matter what. If Immortals were really weak vs infantry then it would cause toss users to think twice about investing soo much into immortals and have to scout better. If terran goes mech, he counters with immortals, terran sees immortals, he counters with marines, protoss see marines, he counters with collossus or storm, and so on.
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EPT
