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From Blizzard,
Q. Obvious concerns about the Roach and how it "fits in" with the zerg. What role was it created to fill? Does the zerg need it?
A. We have heard this concern many times from many sources. There is no way to add units to StarCraft without changing the nature of these races. Since we are adding new units the personality of the races will alter.
The Roach was created to be an early game assault unit. We also wanted a unit that could maintain constant contact with the enemy. Not just through speed but through sheer durability. Looking at our inspiration for the zerg (a variety of hollywood, comic book and role-playing game aliens) this kind of "kit" seemed appropriate for the zerg.
So in short no its not doing what its suppose to. And frankly "a unit that can maintain constant contact with the enemy" just seems like a overly generic excuse for making something overpowering.
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On April 07 2010 22:51 Black Octopi wrote:From Blizzard, Show nested quote +Q. Obvious concerns about the Roach and how it "fits in" with the zerg. What role was it created to fill? Does the zerg need it?
A. We have heard this concern many times from many sources. There is no way to add units to StarCraft without changing the nature of these races. Since we are adding new units the personality of the races will alter.
The Roach was created to be an early game assault unit. We also wanted a unit that could maintain constant contact with the enemy. Not just through speed but through sheer durability. Looking at our inspiration for the zerg (a variety of hollywood, comic book and role-playing game aliens) this kind of "kit" seemed appropriate for the zerg. So in short no its not doing what its suppose to. And frankly "a unit that can maintain constant contact with the enemy" just seems like a overly generic excuse for making something overpowering.
Oh, highlights the problem nicely. The problem is they tried to give it two roles:
-> Attack unit
-> (Durable) scout
These don't work together: any unit that can do both should be either expensive (like, the cost of an m&m group, which does both) or is just OP.
Now, a durable scout is something the Zerg really doesn't have, and so that really makes sense to add. But to keep a balance, it has to have a weaker/slower attack so that it can't also be an attacking unit you suddenly can't kill. Nerf the roach's attack, maybe up the unit speed, and fiddle with the cost, and you have a unique useful unit (and don't have to waste OLs). Voila, problem solved.
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On April 07 2010 15:08 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 15:04 Rucky wrote:On April 07 2010 14:57 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 07 2010 14:49 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
I absolutely loath any idea that makes the immortal a "tank" (in the RPG sense of the word).
When do you build units for that purpose? It's going to see zero use in a role where it can take a lot of damage but not deal much in return. IMO, the immortal is the best of the three to be left as-is, with just a damage reduction to bring it in line. The idea that dishes damage isnt the problem. It's that it does too good a job at taking damage. The hardened shields completely negate the consideration of going mech for terran. No...he's right. The dishing damage IS the problem and the taking damage is what it's suppose to do. He got the idea right, he just hates that idea. Yes to damage reduction to bring it in line. agreed, Roach should do half DMG IMHO if it has that much health and armor...
Yeah lets make it half DMG, so it is effectively a nonexistant unit as any opponent will just focus fire the other units, or just outmicro them (which they already can) without any risk at all of losing a unit. Serioulsy whats up with all those weird nerf ideas, do you guys have any concept of balance?
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Another great idea..... regeneration back to Patch 4 or 5.
And instead of 145 health 110 or so.... would be much much better.
Since much roaches ownz every unit in late game... 3-3 upgrades
and 1 supply is a bit wierd.. i guess oO
And i cannot understand the Immortal whiners.... own problem to play only roaches vs mass immortals oO and look at the prize.
Immortals 250/100 and 4 supply
Roaches 75/25 and 1 supply
= 4 roaches 300/100 and 4 supply
i think 4 beat the 1 immortal
if not the immortal is just a good counter for them... and zergs need other units oO
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I would have to agree with previous posters that the immortal seems much stronger than it really is because it's good against roach/marauder, which T and Z are massing pretty much every game i play nowadays, it would probably be used less if that wasn't the case.
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jeppew where the hell u been hiding
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Im just thinking what would happen if they changed immortals to make mech viable..
Lets say terran has a group of thors with a ghost to emp them if p has templars..
And have a group of scvs to follow them on auto repair.. Very easy to do..
Only counter to them I can think of would be zealots and void rays.. I dont know how well void rays do against thor antiair.
With some helions to deal with zealots and some marines that army would kill anything in its path as they 2shot any protoss gateway unit..
They would melt all carrier interceptors in seconds with their splash aa.
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On April 07 2010 04:49 Limenade wrote:
this is a joke, roaches maybe slightly imbalanced but the stand point it makes other races go hard counters to them BUT it is very easy for terran to get marauders which RAPE roaches with micro because of their extra dmg to roaches and their ability to slow units, and protoss RAPE roaches with like 1-2 immortals and 1-2 sentries in their early push.
the point OP is trying to make is that if roaches were not the way they are now then there is no point in spamming maurauders. For example, would you send 12 maurauders against 24 speedlings? The nature of the roach forces maurauders, and considering they're suppose to be the hard counter to roach they better damn well kill them fast
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On April 08 2010 00:49 Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 04:49 Limenade wrote:
this is a joke, roaches maybe slightly imbalanced but the stand point it makes other races go hard counters to them BUT it is very easy for terran to get marauders which RAPE roaches with micro because of their extra dmg to roaches and their ability to slow units, and protoss RAPE roaches with like 1-2 immortals and 1-2 sentries in their early push. the point OP is trying to make is that if roaches were not the way they are now then there is no point in spamming maurauders. For example, would you send 12 maurauders against 24 speedlings? The nature of the roach forces maurauders, and considering they're suppose to be the hard counter to roach they better damn well kill them fast
Why is spamming marauders bad again?
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I would make marauders vs zerg any day of the weak.
It can put a much better fight vs lings, hydras, banelings, infestors, ultras, than other units, even if you want to make a dozen marines and half a dozen reapers the bulk will be made of marauders because they are the only thing that doesnt vanishes in 2 seconds to a bunch of banelings.
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they really need to rethink this game from scratch, starting with what's already in sc1 and improving upon it, but that will never happen
its so sad seeing them completely ignore the original sc1 meta game just to be "different," its the winning formula and its right in front of them
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On April 08 2010 01:14 poor newb wrote:
they really need to rethink this game from scratch, starting with what's in sc1 and improving upon it, but that will never happen
its so sad seeing them completely ignore the original sc gameplay just to be "different," its the winning formula and its right in front of them
Having three races to choose from, two resources to gather, decent population cap, and a fast-paced gameplay are present in both games.
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Yea we should ask blizzard to remove roach and put back Lurker!!!! ^^ TO MAKE IT FAIR!!! 
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On April 08 2010 00:49 Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 04:49 Limenade wrote:
this is a joke, roaches maybe slightly imbalanced but the stand point it makes other races go hard counters to them BUT it is very easy for terran to get marauders which RAPE roaches with micro because of their extra dmg to roaches and their ability to slow units, and protoss RAPE roaches with like 1-2 immortals and 1-2 sentries in their early push. the point OP is trying to make is that if roaches were not the way they are now then there is no point in spamming maurauders. For example, would you send 12 maurauders against 24 speedlings? The nature of the roach forces maurauders, and considering they're suppose to be the hard counter to roach they better damn well kill them fast
I would send 12 marauders vs 24 speedlings anytime. As lings will die way long before the marauders will.
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On April 07 2010 23:31 Musoeun wrote:
Oh, highlights the problem nicely. The problem is they tried to give it two roles:
-> Attack unit
-> (Durable) scout
These don't work together: any unit that can do both should be either expensive (like, the cost of an m&m group, which does both) or is just OP.
Now, a durable scout is something the Zerg really doesn't have, and so that really makes sense to add. But to keep a balance, it has to have a weaker/slower attack so that it can't also be an attacking unit you suddenly can't kill. Nerf the roach's attack, maybe up the unit speed, and fiddle with the cost, and you have a unique useful unit (and don't have to waste OLs). Voila, problem solved.
I haven't seen zerg use the scouting capabilities of roach yet. Basically, you have to research tunneling claws first. A burrowed roach in key places can be like an observer because it can still move around.
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On April 08 2010 01:32 Koffiegast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 00:49 Wire wrote:On April 07 2010 04:49 Limenade wrote:
this is a joke, roaches maybe slightly imbalanced but the stand point it makes other races go hard counters to them BUT it is very easy for terran to get marauders which RAPE roaches with micro because of their extra dmg to roaches and their ability to slow units, and protoss RAPE roaches with like 1-2 immortals and 1-2 sentries in their early push. the point OP is trying to make is that if roaches were not the way they are now then there is no point in spamming maurauders. For example, would you send 12 maurauders against 24 speedlings? The nature of the roach forces maurauders, and considering they're suppose to be the hard counter to roach they better damn well kill them fast I would send 12 marauders vs 24 speedlings anytime. As lings will die way long before the marauders will.
yeah 12 marauders v 24 speedlings is a terrible example. that's 24 supply v 12 supply, it should be obvious who would win that battle -_-
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I don't know if anyone has noticed this at all, but Blizz just posted the Patch 8 Notes:
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23094049316&postId=242397824179&sid=5000#9
Roaches were nerfed. They now have 1 armor as opposed to 2, and their burrowed move speed was decreased.
Marauders also require an Upgrade for Concussive Grenades now, as well. Looks like someone was listening, at least a little bit.
Although, I'm a bit concerned that they also nerfed the Hydras health from 90 to 80. Anyone know why? Or have an idea?
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On April 08 2010 05:38 ryanAnger wrote:I don't know if anyone has noticed this at all, but Blizz just posted the Patch 8 Notes: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23094049316&postId=242397824179&sid=5000#9Roaches were nerfed. They now have 1 armor as opposed to 2, and their burrowed move speed was decreased. Marauders also require an Upgrade for Concussive Grenades now, as well. Looks like someone was listening, at least a little bit. Although, I'm a bit concerned that they also nerfed the Hydras health from 90 to 80. Anyone know why? Or have an idea?
So you can't just throw them into psi storm knowing given the regeneration and armor and hp theres no risk of getting them killed, or something along those lines as others have speculated before me probably.
Also I'd say roaches needed a damage nerf more so then they needed a armor nerf though the old 2 armor base was way too insane for a T1 unit.
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The fact that any action at all was done is a step in the right direction. Personally, I think the roaches armor nerf was rather apt, though i disagree with the marauders slow change.
Right now I'm waiting to see how the metagame plays out. I don't think the issue is fixed yet at all, personally, I think percieved change is just as powerful as actual change itself. For instance, mech has always been viable against zerg. With the new changes, I don't think its so much that mech is more powerful as it is that more people now have the initiative to explore it.
We'll see. I think marauders will be heavily underused in the early days of the patch, but see a resurgence later on.
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On April 08 2010 05:55 Black Octopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 05:38 ryanAnger wrote:I don't know if anyone has noticed this at all, but Blizz just posted the Patch 8 Notes: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23094049316&postId=242397824179&sid=5000#9Roaches were nerfed. They now have 1 armor as opposed to 2, and their burrowed move speed was decreased. Marauders also require an Upgrade for Concussive Grenades now, as well. Looks like someone was listening, at least a little bit. Although, I'm a bit concerned that they also nerfed the Hydras health from 90 to 80. Anyone know why? Or have an idea? So you can't just throw them into psi storm knowing given the regeneration and armor and hp theres no risk of getting them killed, or something along those lines as others have speculated before me probably. Also I'd say roaches needed a damage nerf more so then they needed a armor nerf though the old 2 armor base was way too insane for a T1 unit.
Roaches attack speed isn't very high so while their damage per shot is pretty good the dps of the unit is fairly low in addition to only have range 3 I think roach damage is right around where it should be.
The change in armor is a great thing though and I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out.
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EPT
