EPTI can't for the life of me understand why the siege tank doesn't do extra dmg to armored in siege mode. What would that make imbalanced? Immortals? They have their shield and will thus only lose hard if they are EMPed or hurt beforehand. Thors? Who goes mass thors TvT? Marauders allready rape tanks 1v1 in an open area. Roaches harcore counter tanks also with a good flank. If tanks did extra vs armored in siege it would be viable to do mech vs zerg.
The Roach is whats wrong with SC2. - Page 25
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
I can't for the life of me understand why the siege tank doesn't do extra dmg to armored in siege mode. What would that make imbalanced? Immortals? They have their shield and will thus only lose hard if they are EMPed or hurt beforehand. Thors? Who goes mass thors TvT? Marauders allready rape tanks 1v1 in an open area. Roaches harcore counter tanks also with a good flank. If tanks did extra vs armored in siege it would be viable to do mech vs zerg. | ||
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FREEloss_ca
Canada603 Posts
I really hope Blizzard is reading this thread. I'm sick of having to make Roaches every game...I've played Zerg as my laddering race and have gotten all the way up to top 10 Gold; and now I'm just sick of doing the same opening every matchup. So I gave Terran a try...and it's much the same story but with marauders. | ||
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Vandill
United States2 Posts
On April 05 2010 10:56 Sfydjklm wrote: i think what OP is saying(or should be saying anyway) is that roach is shitty, boring, unimaginative, unmicroable unit that is simply too good not to use. I don't usually post on these forums, but this made me want to quote it for the last page. This is the essential problem with Zerg right now from my experience. Roaches are not fun to play with, but they are necessary. They don't have any of their initial creativity but they still play a key role in a lot of if not all Zerg match ups. It sucks, and it actually makes me and many people I know that play Zerg not want to play them anymore. Good post in my opinion. The roach does need a rework, and from there a re-balancing would be doable. I am fairly happy with the overall progress Blizzard has made with SC2, but this is something they need to look at. | ||
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Black Octopi
187 Posts
Everything is balanced, and its balanced around the roach, which is a ridiculously powerful unit resulting in all races having each equally ridiculously powerful units (Marauder, Immortal) which in turn results in a very boring game with everyone just massing, since enough mass of each respective unit counters everything and anything else you could throw at it. | ||
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tnud
Sweden2233 Posts
Mad credit to the OP, this thread is brilliant! Maybe (oh the horror) units are partially balanced (or influenced) by the campaign? From what I've seen the roach does seem to be the center of it all, I couldn't agree more although I couldn't put my finger on it before. Let's all just hope that Blizzard does read this thread. A lot. BUMP! People with access to the BETA forums should post about this frequently in suggestions/general. EDIT: spelling.. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
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verrater
United States11 Posts
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Gnosis
Scotland912 Posts
On April 07 2010 10:23 verrater wrote: they can't remove roaches, if they do helion harrass is going go to destroy zerg in 5 minutes What's wrong with lings, queens and a spine crawler or two? | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3789 Posts
I have no problem with the underlying point the OP made that the game balance revolves around three units and two of those units were eventually redeveloped to deal with roaches. But I have to point out its false that these units existed because of roaches. Zerg was the least developed race when Starcraft II was announced. Roaches and Marauders didn't even exist at that time. Immortals did and they were made to counter tanks. Then Marauders came out after the idea of reusing Firebats became stillborn and Terran still needed an effective unit to deal with zealots. Roaches made their appearance with the rest of the initial Zerg batch after these units. So it's incorrect to say they were built to counter roaches. But because of their high regen something had to be done about roaches and Marauders and Immortals had their bonuses to armor tacked on as a result. Roaches are the core problem as the OP said but it could've been any unit that could've been chosen by Blizzard to be redesigned to be effective against roaches. | ||
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NiGhT_mArE
United States35 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On April 07 2010 10:23 verrater wrote: they can't remove roaches, if they do helion harrass is going go to destroy zerg in 5 minutes Not asking for a removal  . Rework/rebalance/replace(with another unit that fairs well against zealots and hellions). | ||
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HaruHaru
United States988 Posts
On April 07 2010 11:11 Half wrote: Not asking for a removal . Rework/rebalance/replace(with another unit that fairs well against zealots and hellions). they can remove roaches, make hydras tier 1 and for goodness sake make them smaller! why do they look so freaking huge. then do some tweaking and with good sim city u can stop a helion harass like how zergs stopped vulture harass in sc1!. sigh i'm dreaming too much. but i agree this needs some serious tweakng. | ||
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Karas
United States230 Posts
On April 07 2010 11:11 Half wrote: Not asking for a removal . Rework/rebalance/replace(with another unit that fairs well against zealots and hellions). Yeah there's always the ability to retweak if the big 3 are readjusted. For example zerglings might be made a little stronger if roaches are weakened. As a toss player I'm fine trying to micro around and kill zerglings....at least I can compared to having no chance against roaches. | ||
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verrater
United States11 Posts
On April 07 2010 10:27 Gnosis wrote: What's wrong with lings, queens and a spine crawler or two? Other than that they would get roasted? | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On April 07 2010 11:25 haruharu wrote: they can remove roaches, make hydras tier 1 and for goodness sake make them smaller! why do they look so freaking huge. then do some tweaking and with good sim city u can stop a helion harass like how zergs stopped vulture harass in sc1!. sigh i'm dreaming too much. but i agree this needs some serious tweakng. So, again...make this game BW? -.- | ||
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Jyxz
United States117 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
The immortal should be a unit that provides staying power- it allows a protoss army to move forward in the face of fire by drawing fire and staying alive for a long time. This in no way requires hardened shields, although that ability is cool. Instead, Immortals could simply be beefy- give them massive shields and health that allows them to stay alive, without discriminating against certain types of units. In this circumstance, the immortal fits its role, a hard to kill unit that provides staying power for protoss without forcing other races out of certain tech choices just because certain units would be overly ineffective. In similar fashion, the marauder appears to be a unit that is designed to provide some heavy firepower to a bio army. It allows a ground army to take down large targets that marines would be incapable of bringing down on their own. As such, I would make the marauder more expensive, but at the same time boost their ability to take down armored units, at the expense of their ability to clear away smaller units. Think the thor. They would excel at downing tanks, the new immortal, colossi, and ultras. They wouldnt be massable on the scale of marines, instead they would function as the opposite of firebats, a unit thrown in to deal with certain threats. The roach should feature a sort of hybrid of the above two changes. Zerg already has lings, a massable unit designed to give ground control and, in high enough numbers, deal massive amounts of damage to anything on 2 (or whatever number) legs, but are extremely fragile. Hydras provide a solid g to a and g to g defense, but also are fragile. Therefore roaches have a similar job to the immortal: provide staying power and allow smaller units to get into battle without being torn to bits. The best way to change the current roach to better slot that role without requiring counters would be to make it into an immortal type unit: give it a slightly longer range, keep the health and armor the same, but up the food to 2 or 3. This also might require switching the tech placement of hydras and roaches. People should have a few of them to keep lings and hydras alive before the battle starts, but they shouldn't be massable on their own. The result of these three unit changes doesnt change the roles of the units too much, but instead solidifies their roles and the way they go about filling them. immortals would no longer require marauders to be killed, instead enough tanks could take them down, but at the expense of not firing at the little units swarming to kill them. similarly, roaches cannot be massed, forcing more diverse zerg unit composition, and eliminating the need to get marauders or immortals at their very sight. Finally, the changes to marauders make them a complimentary unit, rather than anything massable, and with the changes to the other units, the terran player has no need to reach for them at every opportunity, freeing the entire tech tree for play. | ||
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Airsick
United States134 Posts
On April 07 2010 13:07 Musoeun wrote: -> Roach: I don't believe the roach is actually a problem, except that it's redundant, so to be useful it has to be OP compared to other options. Zerg already had ling and hydra as foundation units; the roach is unnecessary conceptually. My ideal solution would be to get rid of it; it's a little late for that but enough people hate it that this might actually be feasible. If not, I would move it way down the tech tree. I can see a couple options: I think the best would be to make it a mutation form from another unit. Here's what I want to do with it - I haven't thought about this before, this is off the top of my head - make it a Drone mutation, researchable at Lair level or so: if you get in trouble you'd be able to quickly morph a ranged, fast regenerating unit - of course the trade-off is that you're losing miners. It's "role" would be base defense, with possibilities of course for use in beefing up a timing attack. It would have to be fairly slow and low HP. You might have to nerf Queens a little to balance this, although P and T do have the longer range siege units. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
When do you build units for that purpose? It's going to see zero use in a role where it can take a lot of damage but not deal much in return. IMO, the immortal is the best of the three to be left as-is, with just a damage reduction to bring it in line. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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