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On March 03 2010 22:46 Mogget wrote:
in response to every "why the kespa hate" message
kespa killed gomtv almost as soon as soon as gom merged with blizzard by forcing almost all of the teams to withdraw, that was a major power play against blizzard, and now obviously blizzard are pissed at kespa, they couldnt really screw them over with sc1, becuase it would be shooting themselves in the foot, however, they are clearly trying to freeze kespa out of sc2 so they never loose that level of controll again, and i for one am a fan of that, kespa got too big for their boots and now they're being taken down a notch, good for blizzard, sc2 will survive and thrive with or without kespa, there will always be somone willing broardcast the shows if they think it will get ratings, kespa is powerless atm, and the massive money giant that is blizzard is going to show them who's boss!
\m/ rock on blizzard
On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote:
In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one)
Look guys. I know a lot of people had a soft spot for GOM because they catered to the international audience, but Kespa crushing GOM didn't have as much to do with Blizzard as you may think. Remember that from season 1, many teams refused to participate with GOM cuz it was not Kespa sanctioned. As GOM grew in popularity, it became like the ABA to the NBA back in the seventies, or for a more recent but irrelevant example due to the nature of pro wrestling, the XFL to the NFL. But the thing is, what if the ABA or the XFL actually contracted NBA or NFL players? They would be infringing upon the NBA/NFL's agreement with their respective player's unions as well as screwing with their (NBA, NFL) monopoly rights that the US government has granted them. If a league were to come into existence right now and tried to use MLB players in concurrence with the MLB season, you can be certain that the MLB will use every method to crush this other league.
It's the same thing with starcraft. Starcraft's TV revenue rivals those of other real sports like basketball, though perhaps not as much as baseball and soccer. In korea, starcraft is a real SPORT that leads to revenue for KESPA. There's no reason for them to allow their players to play in other leagues and diminish the power they have to recruit advertising money.
Blizzard was the straw that broke the camel's back. Yeah, it was a bit of a powerplay, but that shit started way before
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On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote:
In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one)
The fact they're bad at what they're doing doesn't mean they don't give a buck about their source of income.
Stupid.
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d_so, all the 3 underlined points you said were correct but they are NOT due to KeSPA, but mostly OGN, MBC and leader gamers like Boxer. As Plexa said in his post, KeSPA was formed much later after eSports has been well established. They actually almost killed eSports once.
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On March 03 2010 22:42 d_so wrote:
2.) Kespa has the best E-sports revenue model. This is almost undeniable. KeSPA's revenue model is so well-run that it doesn't have to charge for seating at its games. How fucking ridiculous is that. Imagine a sport like Football or basketball or whatever being able to create enough revenue from advertising to outweigh the expenses of paying players, maintaining a stadium, front office overhead, etc. This is just so freaking mindblowing that i'm surprised it doesn't get more notice. And the reason why they're able to do this is cuz of their partnerships with OGN and MBCGame, two DEDICATED tv networks backed by huge corporations (OnMedia and MBC).
I'm also guessing it has one of the lowest paid proffesional wages / air time of any sport in the world, however that is purely speculation.
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Zurich15366 Posts
Esport Cold War
What people need to realize is that both parties stand pretty much toe to toe in this. Both have about equal means to threaten each other it's not all like one party has the upper hand.
Blizzard could drag Kespa to court over copyright, but it's the last thing they want to do. A case like this would be dragged out for years, cost a lot, and the result would be entirely uncertain. The IP of computer game generated content has not been resolved at all in court anywhere as far as I know. Together with the production value the Korean TV broadcasts add to the product it is not at all clear who really owns the copyright to the TV rights, or who owns how much. The "best" Blizzard could hope for is shutting down pro BW after spending a lot of money and time in court - something that isn't at all in their interest. They would only lose.
On the other hand, Kespa can't continue with SC2 as they did with BW. Demanding licensing and challenging IP would be much easier for SC2 in the beginning from Blizzard perspective. However, Kespa could refuse to cooperate and use their influence over the TV stations and the teams to not give SC2 any recognition. Again, this is the last thing they want to do as well. The result would be equally uncertain as Blizzard's prospect suing Kespa. They might push SC2 in a niche, and continue to live off decreasing BW interest. But it might also create a new rival, whether this would be GOM or a completely new entity. The "best" they can hope for is destroying or hurting SC2's success while also hurting the value of their current product. They would only lose.
The two have equally disastrous means to hurt and thus threaten each other, but out of their own interest they won't do so, and both know it. So what we see are all those petty little maneuvers with which they try to demonstrate who has the upper hand. In the end, they will have to work together, or ignore each other enough that both can still do business.
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d_so really nice post and totaly agree with you.
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On March 03 2010 22:56 mrdx wrote:
d_so, all the 3 underlined points you said were correct but they are NOT due to KeSPA, but mostly OGN, MBC and leader gamers like Boxer. As Plexa said in his post, KeSPA was formed much later after eSports has been well established. They actually almost killed eSports once.
whether or not Kespa wasn't the originator of the system doesn't matter as long as they represent the interests of the creators. it's kinda like saying the US congress doesn't represent the Constitution because the Founding Fathers were a part of the Confederate of States
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On March 03 2010 22:56 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 22:42 d_so wrote:
2.) Kespa has the best E-sports revenue model. This is almost undeniable. KeSPA's revenue model is so well-run that it doesn't have to charge for seating at its games. How fucking ridiculous is that. Imagine a sport like Football or basketball or whatever being able to create enough revenue from advertising to outweigh the expenses of paying players, maintaining a stadium, front office overhead, etc. This is just so freaking mindblowing that i'm surprised it doesn't get more notice. And the reason why they're able to do this is cuz of their partnerships with OGN and MBCGame, two DEDICATED tv networks backed by huge corporations (OnMedia and MBC).
I'm also guessing it has one of the lowest paid proffesional wages / air time of any sport in the world, however that is purely speculation.
a big part of why the wages are so low is cuz wages in general are low in korea. part time workers here get paid 4 bucks an hour as minimum pay. Teachers, even with 20+ years of experience, get at max 3,000 a month. However, what Korea does have is ridiculous fucking labor laws that makes it almost impossible to get fired. so what they have is a low wage system with a lot of job security
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Thanks Waxangel. It'll be interesting to see how this conflict escalates. I can imagine we'll be hearing more and more as SC2 gets closer to release.
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On March 03 2010 22:53 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote:
In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one) The fact they're bad at what they're doing doesn't mean they don't give a buck about their source of income. Stupid.
I don't want to derail this into a KeSPA bashing thread (there are a thoudsand threads on that here already) but you are right, it sounds so stupid but it was what KeSPA did.
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On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote:
In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one)
Add to that, look at how Kespa handled Leta typing "pp" instead of "ppp," Oversky getting two forfeit losses and a warning for slight mistyping in his OSL qualifiers, Flash's father being forced out of MBCGame studio by security because of the automatically giving a win to Jaedong.
I am NOT trying to argue whether or not Jaedong deserved to win the MSL, the point here is that the players are getting screwed OVER by Kespa rather than treated well. Even the KT coaches threw a massive fit over the MSL conflict - a LOT of people were pissed. Fans in Korea and even TL were upset over it.
I also remember Artosis in a video saying that even in the progamer drafts there's a lot of corruption and disrespect involved.
I don't know if Blizzard is in it for the money or not, but I will say this much: Kespa does NOT represent the players' best interests in ANY way. Kespa has made SO MANY decisions to screw over players and pissed off so many netizens in the past. Even before Blizzard stepped in, GOM was already missing teams in its competition. Money or not, it's very obvious that Kespa is a very corrupt organization that wants to control everything and does not even want to SHARE their control over Esports whatsoever.
Consider this: the first thing Blizzard did was simply OFFER A MONETARY PRIZE to the GOM tournament. Blizzard didn't try to run its own SC tournament, it gave sponsor money to a private tournament trying to make its own stake in esports. What does Kespa do? Withdraw every team from GOM because MBC and OGN didn't want to compete with it.
Kespa really needs to disappear. Blizzard or no Blizzard, an organization needs to exist that isn't going to screw players over once every few months for typing two p's instead of three in a game.
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On March 03 2010 23:00 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 22:56 mrdx wrote:
d_so, all the 3 underlined points you said were correct but they are NOT due to KeSPA, but mostly OGN, MBC and leader gamers like Boxer. As Plexa said in his post, KeSPA was formed much later after eSports has been well established. They actually almost killed eSports once. whether or not Kespa wasn't the originator of the system doesn't matter as long as they represent the interests of the creators. it's kinda like saying the US congress doesn't represent the Constitution because the Founding Fathers were a part of the Confederate of States
I see your point there but I think it's rather important that the fans
- don't give KeSPA credits for what they didn't do
- see clearly who KeSPA is working for, whose interests they actually represent
I don't think (though not sure) that Korean government granted KeSPA the right to solely control everything related to eSports in Korea. If that's not the case, your analogy of US congress might not apply because GOM, OGN or MBC might very well form another organisation with their own system of players and leagues.
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Actually, i think that KeSPA is doing such an outrageous decision to snub blizzard is due to the fact that they are actually certain that the progamers would support their decision for the moment. Look at jaedong,flash and bisu. They have played SCBW for so many years that it would be stupid for them to suddenly change games to SC2 where they are wholly uncertain to everything inside. And since they are making a living off playing SCBW, why would they dig their own graves to go and play SC2?
Although i must agree that the phenomenon of SC2 taking over the progaming scene and replacing its predecessor is definitely something that cannot be avoided, no matter how slow or how long it takes in Korea. Once this happens, KeSPA would have to make a concession, although maybe the players would lose their title and fame awarded to them due to the change in games where there are already recognized players (david kim)
I also have to admit that KeSPA makes the most ridiculous decisions at times..
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There is alot of wrong / false information about Kespa and it's birth / history / role in this thread.
Actually some mod posts were even wrong on dates / names.
I remember that time quite clearly, as I was there and spoke to the persons back then.
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On March 03 2010 23:03 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 22:56 bmml wrote:On March 03 2010 22:42 d_so wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
2.) Kespa has the best E-sports revenue model. This is almost undeniable. KeSPA's revenue model is so well-run that it doesn't have to charge for seating at its games. How fucking ridiculous is that. Imagine a sport like Football or basketball or whatever being able to create enough revenue from advertising to outweigh the expenses of paying players, maintaining a stadium, front office overhead, etc. This is just so freaking mindblowing that i'm surprised it doesn't get more notice. And the reason why they're able to do this is cuz of their partnerships with OGN and MBCGame, two DEDICATED tv networks backed by huge corporations (OnMedia and MBC).
I'm also guessing it has one of the lowest paid proffesional wages / air time of any sport in the world, however that is purely speculation. a big part of why the wages are so low is cuz wages in general are low in korea. part time workers here get paid 4 bucks an hour as minimum pay. Teachers, even with 20+ years of experience, get at max 3,000 a month. However, what Korea does have is ridiculous fucking labor laws that makes it almost impossible to get fired. so what they have is a low wage system with a lot of job security
4$ an hour?! thats freaking insane, is cost of living really that extremely low?
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When I was in Korea a TGI waiter was making 2200 won / hour. T_T
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On March 03 2010 23:31 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 23:03 d_so wrote:On March 03 2010 22:56 bmml wrote:On March 03 2010 22:42 d_so wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
2.) Kespa has the best E-sports revenue model. This is almost undeniable. KeSPA's revenue model is so well-run that it doesn't have to charge for seating at its games. How fucking ridiculous is that. Imagine a sport like Football or basketball or whatever being able to create enough revenue from advertising to outweigh the expenses of paying players, maintaining a stadium, front office overhead, etc. This is just so freaking mindblowing that i'm surprised it doesn't get more notice. And the reason why they're able to do this is cuz of their partnerships with OGN and MBCGame, two DEDICATED tv networks backed by huge corporations (OnMedia and MBC).
I'm also guessing it has one of the lowest paid proffesional wages / air time of any sport in the world, however that is purely speculation. a big part of why the wages are so low is cuz wages in general are low in korea. part time workers here get paid 4 bucks an hour as minimum pay. Teachers, even with 20+ years of experience, get at max 3,000 a month. However, what Korea does have is ridiculous fucking labor laws that makes it almost impossible to get fired. so what they have is a low wage system with a lot of job security 4$ an hour?! thats freaking insane, is cost of living really that extremely low?
On March 03 2010 23:33 Boonbag wrote:
When I was in Korea a TGI waiter was making 2200 won / hour. T_T
Cost of living isn't low like other asian countries -- china, thailand, vietnam, etc. I don't know how they do it, I think it has a lot to do with younger people still living with their parents and as such don't need as much money since their dad still brings in hella $$$ cuz he has years in service, seniority and etc.
and yeah, 4,000 sucks but 2200 is even worse haha. you must have been here like a decade ago
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On March 03 2010 23:09 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote:
In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one) Add to that, look at how Kespa handled Leta typing "pp" instead of "ppp," Oversky getting two forfeit losses and a warning for slight mistyping in his OSL qualifiers, Flash's father being forced out of MBCGame studio by security because of the automatically giving a win to Jaedong. I am NOT trying to argue whether or not Jaedong deserved to win the MSL, the point here is that the players are getting screwed OVER by Kespa rather than treated well. Even the KT coaches threw a massive fit over the MSL conflict - a LOT of people were pissed. Fans in Korea and even TL were upset over it. I also remember Artosis in a video saying that even in the progamer drafts there's a lot of corruption and disrespect involved. I don't know if Blizzard is in it for the money or not, but I will say this much: Kespa does NOT represent the players' best interests in ANY way. Kespa has made SO MANY decisions to screw over players and pissed off so many netizens in the past. Even before Blizzard stepped in, GOM was already missing teams in its competition. Money or not, it's very obvious that Kespa is a very corrupt organization that wants to control everything and does not even want to SHARE their control over Esports whatsoever. Consider this: the first thing Blizzard did was simply OFFER A MONETARY PRIZE to the GOM tournament. Blizzard didn't try to run its own SC tournament, it gave sponsor money to a private tournament trying to make its own stake in esports. What does Kespa do? Withdraw every team from GOM because MBC and OGN didn't want to compete with it. Kespa really needs to disappear. Blizzard or no Blizzard, an organization needs to exist that isn't going to screw players over once every few months for typing two p's instead of three in a game.
i understand your anger towards them and their failures in terms of officiating but you could use a similar argument to claim the NBA as dysfunctional for suspending Suns players during the Suns/Spurs games for leaving the bench without throwing a punch.
sometimes, organizations feel they must enforce the letter of the law even if it's agaisnt the spirit of the law. it happens.
actually you could hate every other sports organization way more for fucking up the future of their respective leagues for allowing strikes to happen.
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EPT
