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On March 03 2010 23:45 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 23:09 Kyo Yuy wrote:On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote:
In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one) Add to that, look at how Kespa handled Leta typing "pp" instead of "ppp," Oversky getting two forfeit losses and a warning for slight mistyping in his OSL qualifiers, Flash's father being forced out of MBCGame studio by security because of the automatically giving a win to Jaedong. I am NOT trying to argue whether or not Jaedong deserved to win the MSL, the point here is that the players are getting screwed OVER by Kespa rather than treated well. Even the KT coaches threw a massive fit over the MSL conflict - a LOT of people were pissed. Fans in Korea and even TL were upset over it. I also remember Artosis in a video saying that even in the progamer drafts there's a lot of corruption and disrespect involved. I don't know if Blizzard is in it for the money or not, but I will say this much: Kespa does NOT represent the players' best interests in ANY way. Kespa has made SO MANY decisions to screw over players and pissed off so many netizens in the past. Even before Blizzard stepped in, GOM was already missing teams in its competition. Money or not, it's very obvious that Kespa is a very corrupt organization that wants to control everything and does not even want to SHARE their control over Esports whatsoever. Consider this: the first thing Blizzard did was simply OFFER A MONETARY PRIZE to the GOM tournament. Blizzard didn't try to run its own SC tournament, it gave sponsor money to a private tournament trying to make its own stake in esports. What does Kespa do? Withdraw every team from GOM because MBC and OGN didn't want to compete with it. Kespa really needs to disappear. Blizzard or no Blizzard, an organization needs to exist that isn't going to screw players over once every few months for typing two p's instead of three in a game. i understand your anger towards them and their failures in terms of officiating but you could use a similar argument to claim the NBA as dysfunctional for suspending Suns players during the Suns/Spurs games for leaving the bench without throwing a punch. sometimes, organizations feel they must enforce the letter of the law even if it's agaisnt the spirit of the law. it happens. actually you could hate every other sports organization way more for fucking up the future of their respective leagues for allowing strikes to happen.
Except the NBA doesn't screw over players and teams several times a month and most teams actually have a say, unlike in Kespa where teams don't really have a say in anything unless it's SKT1 because the President of Kespa runs SK Telecom.
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hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!?
it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days.
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I agree with what zatic said. It's really stupid to try to make and judgement on who is right or wrong in this case, because legally, it's so incredible far from being sorted, it's really ridiculous to just talk about it. It would (and probably will) take many many lawyers years of work to figure and maybe even legislative steps at some point to decide on the matter. Probably, when there is enough money in it, at one point somebody will go to court. Right now, there is nowhere near enough money in it and the prestige loss will certainly outweigh the gain anyway.
Even morally, it's pointless to discuss it, because both sides have fair points and the right way will lie in the middle somewhere. Nobody knows enough about how exactly both parties interact to say one of them was morally better than the other.
Since so many people are bashing KeSPA, I also want to point out that a governing body is something very vital to eSports as it is to any other sport. Without it, many many parties would constantly be trying to steal their part of the viewer attention by changing rules, trying to bind players/teams, getting exclusive rights etc. etc. from which the sport and the viewers will suffer. It's not like KeSPA has done Broodwar a little good and a little bad; without KeSPA, Broodwar might have very well died in Korea. There were already times when fights between TV channels threatened to tear it apart.
As far as Broodwar is concerned, I wouldn't give any credit to Blizzard at all, because they did nothing to enable pro-gaming. They just happened to be lucky to be the creators of that game. However, for the future, I agree that the game developer also should get some share of the revenues. Not "because of all the hard work they put into making the game". That's a naive fairy-tale argument. But game developers have to have an incentive to create games which are suited for eSports. We all know too well that the interests of casual gamers, who bring in the majority of sells, and eSports fans don't fit together. So if a company is to create a game for eSports, they will lose money at the initial sales and there must be a way to make them profit from the continued success of their game in progaming. Blizzard has certainly had that in mind all the time, which is why they must make some money out of licensing as to not set a bad example for the future.
I'm pretty certain however, that it would be a useless case of vertical integration, if game developers would also take the place of governing bodies or even organizers for their eSports products. So KeSPA should continue making the rules but pay a certain amount of money to Blizzard.
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On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote:
hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!?
it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days.
And how would they do that?
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On March 04 2010 00:00 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote:
hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!?
it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days. And how would they do that?
They go into Battle.Net and push the "ban all Korean sc2 account until further notice".
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On March 03 2010 23:49 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 23:45 d_so wrote:On March 03 2010 23:09 Kyo Yuy wrote:On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote:
In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one) Add to that, look at how Kespa handled Leta typing "pp" instead of "ppp," Oversky getting two forfeit losses and a warning for slight mistyping in his OSL qualifiers, Flash's father being forced out of MBCGame studio by security because of the automatically giving a win to Jaedong. I am NOT trying to argue whether or not Jaedong deserved to win the MSL, the point here is that the players are getting screwed OVER by Kespa rather than treated well. Even the KT coaches threw a massive fit over the MSL conflict - a LOT of people were pissed. Fans in Korea and even TL were upset over it. I also remember Artosis in a video saying that even in the progamer drafts there's a lot of corruption and disrespect involved. I don't know if Blizzard is in it for the money or not, but I will say this much: Kespa does NOT represent the players' best interests in ANY way. Kespa has made SO MANY decisions to screw over players and pissed off so many netizens in the past. Even before Blizzard stepped in, GOM was already missing teams in its competition. Money or not, it's very obvious that Kespa is a very corrupt organization that wants to control everything and does not even want to SHARE their control over Esports whatsoever. Consider this: the first thing Blizzard did was simply OFFER A MONETARY PRIZE to the GOM tournament. Blizzard didn't try to run its own SC tournament, it gave sponsor money to a private tournament trying to make its own stake in esports. What does Kespa do? Withdraw every team from GOM because MBC and OGN didn't want to compete with it. Kespa really needs to disappear. Blizzard or no Blizzard, an organization needs to exist that isn't going to screw players over once every few months for typing two p's instead of three in a game. i understand your anger towards them and their failures in terms of officiating but you could use a similar argument to claim the NBA as dysfunctional for suspending Suns players during the Suns/Spurs games for leaving the bench without throwing a punch. sometimes, organizations feel they must enforce the letter of the law even if it's agaisnt the spirit of the law. it happens. actually you could hate every other sports organization way more for fucking up the future of their respective leagues for allowing strikes to happen. Except the NBA doesn't screw over players and teams several times a month and most teams actually have a say, unlike in Kespa where teams don't really have a say in anything unless it's SKT1 because the President of Kespa runs SK Telecom.
no, they only screw them once a decade, aka until their CBA expires... except that when they do, they screw them by not having a season for months. watch what happens in 2years with the nba.
and really, if officiating makes you so mad you can carry the same argument to every league. Lakers Kings playoffs 2001 (2000?). Donaughy. NFL before video replays. Baseball and steroids. etc etc.
basically, using an organization's shitty officiating as reason to overthrow it just doesn't work when considering the context of other sports organizations.
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Hey I liked a lot of what you said, but I'm really confused about this:
On March 03 2010 23:59 Asta wrote:
We all know too well that the interests of casual gamers, who bring in the majority of sells, and eSports fans don't fit together. So if a company is to create a game for eSports, they will lose money at the initial sales...
i don't get it. casual gamers --> majority of spectators and is what drives esports in korea.
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Well, one thing seem certain -- that sc2 won't have the same Blizzard/Kespa relationship as sc1.
I'm guessing Kespa is waiting until after release to see what kind of reaction sc2 has in Korea. We probably won't see an answer to this anytime soon.
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On March 04 2010 00:03 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 00:00 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote:
hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!?
it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days. And how would they do that? They go into Battle.Net and push the "ban all Korean sc2 account until further notice".
Thats not going to shut down the SC proscene and they wouldn't do that anyway
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if there was no kespa korean progaming teams will fall apart sooner or later..it's great they stick together under kespa...
i know kespa does some dumbest things but it is absolutely necessary
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What's to stop blizzard just toally crushing KeSPA? Ignoring the right/wrong debate, which I think is useless, this is a fight that comes down to who has the biggest stick, moral or not. Blizzard has a rediculous amount of money at it's disposal, epsecaily if you count activision too, the biggest game company in the world and I think they said on thier conference call that they are the 3rd largest software company in the world in some aspect like distribution or development or something, which is just insane.
Anyways my point is that blizzard could easily crush kespa, all it needs to do is set up it's own sc2 league in korea, offer bigger prize money and salaries than KeSPA's leagues do and then either buy thier way onto OGN and MBC or just set up thier own cannels, they have the money. Just think about it now, your a B-teamer or a low grade A-teamer and your earing peanuts in your current team, and there is no competetion in sc2 becuase of KeSPA's rules to stop them playing sc2, so you set up a team or join one and get paid like 3-4times becuase not only do blizzard offer more but the competition is less. And then KeSPA are fucked, becuase they lose thier progamers and can't compete with blizzards prize money and they can't set up an sc2 league becuase of the terms of service.
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On March 04 2010 00:03 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 00:00 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote:
hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!?
it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days. And how would they do that? They go into Battle.Net and push the "ban all Korean sc2 account until further notice".
And why would they pull of this kind of nazi-crap?.....
KeSpa is a company and company's have one goal: MONEY.
Naturally, KeSpa is just afraid that Blizzard will wan't to control the whole tournament-scene etc., so they wouldn't really have a justifiable existance anymore. Like with the discussion that SC2 cannot be played over LAN, but only the B.Net (I actually don't know whether this is in fact the case or if they've changed that. '^^).
Blizzard and KeSpa both have to accept, that they need to find a solution together, because I think it would be extremely stupid by Blizzard to try to shut down a Company that has pushed SC1 to where it is right now. So many people think Korea is the eSport-mecca and those people have to accept that it was hugely because of KeSpa, even if they often pull dibious stunts with players etc.
It's always like that; Every major company is basically "Evil", because they just wan't the money, we all just have to deal with that.
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On March 04 2010 00:18 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 00:03 Integra wrote:On March 04 2010 00:00 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote:
hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!?
it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days. And how would they do that? They go into Battle.Net and push the "ban all Korean sc2 account until further notice". And why would they pull of this kind of nazi-crap?..... KeSpa is a company and company's have one goal: MONEY. Naturally, KeSpa is just afraid that Blizzard will wan't to control the whole tournament-scene etc., so they wouldn't really have a justifiable existance anymore. Like with the discussion that SC2 cannot be played over LAN, but only the B.Net (I actually don't know whether this is in fact the case or if they've changed that. '^^). Blizzard and KeSpa both have to accept, that they need to find a solution together, because I think it would be extremely stupid by Blizzard to try to shut down a Company that has pushed SC1 to where it is right now. So many people think Korea is the eSport-mecca and those people have to accept that it was hugely because of KeSpa, even if they often pull dibious stunts with players etc. It's always like that; Every major company is basically "Evil", because they just wan't the money, we all just have to deal with that.
I didn't say they would do it, I only demonstrated that they "could" since the person I responded too asked how Blizzard would be able to actually pull it off. Please understand the context of the post before you reply to it.
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On March 03 2010 19:07 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
In the end it isn't blizzard that gets hurt by Kespa's arrogance however.. it will be the proteams/kespa. Going to war with the company that CREATED/MAINTAINS and OWNS the game you base your entire existence sounds absolutely retarded.
Yes I understand the gray area involved and the "complicated" actuality of this but.. I cannot imagine kespa benefiting in the end from this "war."
in fact, it could lead to americans being better than koreans at SC2 if the availability plays a part
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On March 04 2010 00:18 UdderChaos wrote:
What's to stop blizzard just toally crushing KeSPA? Ignoring the right/wrong debate, which I think is useless, this is a fight that comes down to who has the biggest stick, moral or not. Blizzard has a rediculous amount of money at it's disposal, epsecaily if you count activision too, the biggest game company in the world and I think they said on thier conference call that they are the 3rd largest software company in the world in some aspect like distribution or development or something, which is just insane.
Anyways my point is that blizzard could easily crush kespa, all it needs to do is set up it's own sc2 league in korea, offer bigger prize money and salaries than KeSPA's leagues do and then either buy thier way onto OGN and MBC or just set up thier own cannels, they have the money. Just think about it now, your a B-teamer or a low grade A-teamer and your earing peanuts in your current team, and there is no competetion in sc2 becuase of KeSPA's rules to stop them playing sc2, so you set up a team or join one and get paid like 3-4times becuase not only do blizzard offer more but the competition is less. And then KeSPA are fucked, becuase they lose thier progamers and can't compete with blizzards prize money and they can't set up an sc2 league becuase of the terms of service.
Yeah I guess that Blizzard could set up they own channels, and pay much more for everything to get players, but Blizzard is probably not interested in loosing money, and working on something that they have no idea about in diferent country.
If anything they would rather work with GOM, or other channel that is interested in cooperation, but I am not sure if that would be such a good deal for GOM. Blizzard wants all the rights, and to change conditions as they like, will any company want to invest in SC2 on those terms? Maybe they will end up with signing the deal that is not one sided but we will have to wait, and see how that develops.
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On March 04 2010 00:18 UdderChaos wrote:
What's to stop blizzard just toally crushing KeSPA? Ignoring the right/wrong debate, which I think is useless, this is a fight that comes down to who has the biggest stick, moral or not. Blizzard has a rediculous amount of money at it's disposal, epsecaily if you count activision too, the biggest game company in the world and I think they said on thier conference call that they are the 3rd largest software company in the world in some aspect like distribution or development or something, which is just insane.
Anyways my point is that blizzard could easily crush kespa, all it needs to do is set up it's own sc2 league in korea, offer bigger prize money and salaries than KeSPA's leagues do and then either buy thier way onto OGN and MBC or just set up thier own cannels, they have the money. Just think about it now, your a B-teamer or a low grade A-teamer and your earing peanuts in your current team, and there is no competetion in sc2 becuase of KeSPA's rules to stop them playing sc2, so you set up a team or join one and get paid like 3-4times becuase not only do blizzard offer more but the competition is less. And then KeSPA are fucked, becuase they lose thier progamers and can't compete with blizzards prize money and they can't set up an sc2 league becuase of the terms of service.
I don't think it's as simple as Blizz buying their way into a new league. This issue seems to have nationalist and cultural undertones to it. Notice how the XBox fails in Japan? Or how much shock there was that Budweiser was going to be owned by a foreign company? Even if Blizz could buy their way (I have no way of knowing if they do), they couldn't force Korean spectators to like it and support it.
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On March 04 2010 00:26 Integra wrote:I didn't say they would do it, I only demonstrated that they "could" since the person I responded too asked how Blizzard would be able to actually pull it off. Please understand the context of the post before you reply to it.
Cool, so how exactly would that kill SC proscene? If anything lack of competition from SC2 would make it stronger.
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On March 04 2010 00:00 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote:
hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!?
it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days. And how would they do that?
Blizzard made the cow, Kespa is just taking the milk. And now they've mistaken the two and think they have a word on what the cow should do next.
A good lawyer could probably shut down the whole thing if Blizzard decided to do it.
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On March 04 2010 00:03 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 00:00 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote:
hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!?
it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days. And how would they do that? They go into Battle.Net and push the "ban all Korean sc2 account until further notice". Private servers like Iccup?
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On March 04 2010 00:32 niteReloaded wrote:Blizzard made the cow, Kespa is just taking the milk. And now they've mistaken the two and think they have a word on what the cow should do next.
Ridiculous analogy, esport is not something that run on its own if you have a game. Right or wrong teams are behind KeSPA, and OGN/MBC is behind KeSPA. Ever heard of relations between retailers, and producers?
On March 04 2010 00:32 niteReloaded wrote:A good lawyer could probably shut down the whole thing if Blizzard decided to do it.
Oh really? Why there was so many cases won against EULA in USA? You think that it would be easier to enforce "made up by Blizzard laws" in Korea?
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EPT
