Source: Sports KHAN Disclaimer: Sports Khan is a Korean sports/entertainment tabloid. They practice a lot of sensationalist journalism, like The Sun in the UK. This is not a direct translation, just my summing up of the story.
Mike Morhaime, president of Blizzard, visited Korea between February 24~26. Apparently it was just a routine trip to on Blizzard Korea business, with no major activities scheduled.
There was one minor event that had been planned though, a small private event at a hotel where Mr. Morhaime was to deliver the Starcraft II beta to the Korean pro-gamers and pro-game teams directly, with some time for dinner and discussion.
However, the event was cancelled, because most (the article does not say all) of the pro-game teams turned down the invitation. Why?
Blizzard Korea representatives said there were some internal scheduling misunderstandings.
The more interesting explanation though, is that it's because Blizzard did not go through KeSPA in order to arrange the event. Instead, they contacted all of the individual pro-game teams directly.
For the sake of future negotiations with Blizzard over intellectual property issues regarding Stacraft II's E-sports scene, the pro-game teams are united under KeSPA as a single party. Blizzard's treatment of the teams as individual entities could be an effort to undermine their unity on that issue.
An anonymous source from a pro-game team is quoted as saying "Blizzard Korea doesn't want to recognize KeSPA as negotiations partner regarding intellectual rights, but that's not the right way to think about it... ...KeSPA was created together by the teams, and KeSPA is essentially the teams themselves."
In the end it isn't blizzard that gets hurt by Kespa's arrogance however.. it will be the proteams/kespa. Going to war with the company that CREATED/MAINTAINS and OWNS the game you base your entire existence sounds absolutely retarded.
Yes I understand the gray area involved and the "complicated" actuality of this but.. I cannot imagine kespa benefiting in the end from this "war."
On March 03 2010 18:48 Waxangel wrote: KeSPA was created together by the teams, and KeSPA is essentially the teams themselves.
Yea, I'm sure Jaedong felt that way during his free agency ordeal. KeSPA can't win, they have no real leverage, besides, Blizzard could legally fuck them up the ass.
one of the reasons i thought wc3 was a failed game was because of the lack of korean support (not that they didnt try). esports just isnt popular enough around the globe. the infrastructure the koreans made for sc1 is really remarkable. sc2 will be an international hit, however i feel without support from the korean pro scene it will not survive.
lol there are enough talented, diligent korean SC players that the current roster of every pro SC team can be totally absent from SC2 and there will still be a large korean presence
if blizzard's got everything on lockdown, KeSPA can't do shit about it. They can't interfere with SC2 teams outside their sphere of influence, and they can't organize or broadcast pro SC2. They're retarded to think they're a vital part of the infrastructure ^_^
Blizzard should just ignore Kespa and work with GOM. GOM should start trying to go to sponsors for SC II. There doesn't need to be a team league to start off, just fun exciting tournaments that aren't as strictly controlled and ran like Kespa. Kespa needs some competition and no one is preventing Gom. GOM get in, on this shit!
KeSPA better shut the hell up, or else they'll get major problems trying to make big money playing Blizzard games, in SC2's case even on Blizzard's servers. The Korean Starcraft phenomenon yields huge profits for Blizzard, but that doesn't mean KeSPA can fuck with Blizz as they please.
I think media/us don't know the exact details on this whole case, there's no way KeSPA would be stupid enough to keep fighting Blizzard like this when Morhaime could just snap his fingers and order KeSPA to be shut down in a matter of days.
And a lot of things have happened since wc3 was released, sc2 has a far bigger chance of putting bw progaming to a peaceful sleep.
I wonder. Do Blizzard retains all rights to games played by it's users? If I play a game, does Blizzard own my replay? If they don't how can Blizzard charge for a license when it's the players (Kespa) who are creating the content?
On March 03 2010 19:43 T.O.P. wrote: I wonder. Do Blizzard retains all rights to games played by it's users? If I play a game, does Blizzard own my replay? If they don't how can Blizzard charge for a license when it's the players (Kespa) who are creating the content?
Your replay is just a file on your computer, there's no real ownership to it so it's not quite the same.
But if you intended to make money off of showing your replay Blizzard would be entitled to a piece of the cake since they spent 7 years + and alot of money and hard work on creating the game that you would essentially be making money off of. With that being said, seeing how Blizzard sponsored GOM and made them "certified" it really seems like they want to support E-Sport financially, not charge for it, they just want the control of what people are doing with their game, and don't want others to profit from their work.
Edit: They don't own "The match" that you played, they just own the platform you played it on, a match is just a series of specific events in time.
On March 03 2010 19:35 Scorch wrote: KeSPA better shut the hell up, or else they'll get major problems trying to make big money playing Blizzard games, in SC2's case even on Blizzard's servers. The Korean Starcraft phenomenon yields huge profits for Blizzard, but that doesn't mean KeSPA can fuck with Blizz as they please.
... Or they could just keep playing SC1, which as of right now is better as an esport.
On March 03 2010 19:38 Puosu wrote: I think media/us don't know the exact details on this whole case, there's no way KeSPA would be stupid enough to keep fighting Blizzard like this when Morhaime could just snap his fingers and order KeSPA to be shut down in a matter of days.
And a lot of things have happened since wc3 was released, sc2 has a far bigger chance of putting bw progaming to a peaceful sleep.
On March 03 2010 19:50 Navane wrote: I'm guessing KESPA will not allow ogn/mbc to stream sc2 games if KESPA is not part of the deal. They can do that because of sc1.
Indeed, because KeSPA could punish those channels for broadcasting SC2 without KeSPA having part of it, by just disallowing the BW players from participating.
But then everyone loses, so it seems like a silly situation.
On March 03 2010 19:07 {88}iNcontroL wrote: In the end it isn't blizzard that gets hurt by Kespa's arrogance however.. it will be the proteams/kespa. Going to war with the company that CREATED/MAINTAINS and OWNS the game you base your entire existence sounds absolutely retarded.
Yes I understand the gray area involved and the "complicated" actuality of this but.. I cannot imagine kespa benefiting in the end from this "war."
better die for something than live for nothing , im totally pro-kespa
On March 03 2010 19:43 T.O.P. wrote: I wonder. Do Blizzard retains all rights to games played by it's users? If I play a game, does Blizzard own my replay? If they don't how can Blizzard charge for a license when it's the players (Kespa) who are creating the content?
Your replay is just a file on your computer, there's no real ownership to it so it's not quite the same.
But if you intended to make money off of showing your replay Blizzard would be entitled to a piece of the cake since they spent 7 years + and alot of money and hard work on creating the game that you would essentially be making money off of. With that being said, seeing how Blizzard sponsored GOM and made them "certified" it really seems like they want to support E-Sport financially, not charge for it, they just want the control of what people are doing with their game, and don't want others to profit from their work.
Edit: They don't own "The match" that you played, they just own the platform you played it on, a match is just a series of specific events in time.
How come Ford/Subaru/GM/Chevrolet/etc. don't make money (control) from the cars racing in premier races across the world? Because you own that product once you buy it and you can do with it as you want since it is your property. Blizzard is not entitled to anything once you buy their product. When I buy something I expect to own it.
Anyways, let's be done with this. I hope Kespa goes down the proverbial toilet. There is money to be had, and someone else will fill the void, and you can't get much worse than Kespa....so whoever it is by default would at least be somewhat better!
On March 03 2010 19:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: lol there are enough talented, diligent korean SC players that the current roster of every pro SC team can be totally absent from SC2 and there will still be a large korean presence
thats not actually really true. most of the talent in sc is already in teams, obviously you get new players coming up but the kind of player who will excel at a new game is few and far between given the robotic style that sc kinda forces on young players trying to make it. if the pro teams stay out of sc2 its gonna be the war3 players on top of korean sc2. i dont actually know many good war3 koreans there are, obviously people like moon and lyn will be good, but itll be absolutely nothing compared to having sc progamers switch.
yeah i'm interested of how this will be resolved... blizzard controls the leagal rights of their products, kespa to a great extent controls the media and the pro teams who would deliver the final product to the audience. and i highly doubt that blizzard will be able establish it's own leagues as successfully as kespa (proleague and starleagues)
they must come to a agreement or blizzard will have to go through the long and painful process of creating their own pro-scene.
well, Blizzard can claim any rights it wants in the EULA - but it's up to the courts to decide which parts are reasonable and which parts are struck down. And I do think Korean courts will be sympathetic to Korean businesses. (not a racist claim - many countries are like this)
However, don't forget the teams like Kespa, they created it, it's the players who don't benefit. And although some may argue that Kespa holds even the teams' interests back, the teams want things that way. Kespa keeps the product (starcraft shows) regular and predictable, tries to keep team costs down, etc. to benefit the corporate sponsors of the entire show.
I'm not happy Blizzard routes all multiplayer games through battle.net even those that don't need it (like LAN), so this is a fight I hope Blizzard doesn't necessarily entirely win. And I really don't think esports currently are profitable enough that there's enough to cut in another party. Pro Starcraft works in South Korea because of the locals' efforts to make it big, not really due to Blizzard's actions, and it's still pretty niche.
Just because something is written in EULA it does not mean that this is the law. If contract is against laws of the country then it has no power, just like you can legally copy your program despite the junk that is written in EULA. Blizzard can't do anything about SC1 progaming, with SC2 it can be more complex as now you will have to log to they servers, but then what will Blizzard do? Shut down SC2 pros accounts? Could KeSPA sue blizzard for that?
On March 03 2010 19:35 Scorch wrote: KeSPA better shut the hell up, or else they'll get major problems trying to make big money playing Blizzard games, in SC2's case even on Blizzard's servers. The Korean Starcraft phenomenon yields huge profits for Blizzard, but that doesn't mean KeSPA can fuck with Blizz as they please.
... Or they could just keep playing SC1, which as of right now is better as an esport.
But for how long will this work if all the cool kids buy SC2? Sponsors invest where they get the widest audience. Also, I don't know if Blizz could stop KeSPA/OGN/MBC SC1 activities if they wanted and only tolerated them until now. What I know for sure is that I wouldn't want to escalate a dispute with a multi-billion dollar company like Activision/Blizzard to a legal level.
On March 03 2010 19:43 T.O.P. wrote: I wonder. Do Blizzard retains all rights to games played by it's users? If I play a game, does Blizzard own my replay? If they don't how can Blizzard charge for a license when it's the players (Kespa) who are creating the content?
Your replay is just a file on your computer, there's no real ownership to it so it's not quite the same.
But if you intended to make money off of showing your replay Blizzard would be entitled to a piece of the cake since they spent 7 years + and alot of money and hard work on creating the game that you would essentially be making money off of. With that being said, seeing how Blizzard sponsored GOM and made them "certified" it really seems like they want to support E-Sport financially, not charge for it, they just want the control of what people are doing with their game, and don't want others to profit from their work.
Edit: They don't own "The match" that you played, they just own the platform you played it on, a match is just a series of specific events in time.
How come Ford/Subaru/GM/Chevrolet/etc. don't make money (control) from the cars racing in premier races across the world? Because you own that product once you buy it and you can do with it as you want since it is your property. Blizzard is not entitled to anything once you buy their product. When I buy something I expect to own it.
Anyways, let's be done with this. I hope Kespa goes down the proverbial toilet. There is money to be had, and someone else will fill the void, and you can't get much worse than Kespa....so whoever it is by default would at least be somewhat better!
I think you should read the Terms of use and licence agreement. You don't own shit but are given permission to use the game which is still the property of the creator of it.
On March 03 2010 19:24 esla_sol wrote: one of the reasons i thought wc3 was a failed game was because of the lack of korean support (not that they didnt try). esports just isnt popular enough around the globe. the infrastructure the koreans made for sc1 is really remarkable. sc2 will be an international hit, however i feel without support from the korean pro scene it will not survive.
If i remember correctly Wc3 worked pretty well in Korea for time but it failed because of the cheating incident. They lost the public trust after that
I dunno but i expect to own the product that i buy. If not why even bother?
That said i guess that kespa will be losing out even though i feel that they are doing somethibg just to protect their interests since everything that had made starcraft bw so popular was due to the fact that people like flash boxer saviour and every living scbw legend showed them stuff that was never intended to be part of the game.(muta stacking)
I think what is being left out of this discussion is the culture in Korea.. I imagine there is a strong sense of solidarity among the teams/KeSPA and the entire organization, I think leaving KeSPA out does nothing to help blizzard or SC2. No matter how much the foreigners here dislike them, they are still the main organizing body of the Starcraft scene.. I think it's a mistake to leave them out.
On March 03 2010 20:32 streamofhonour wrote: I dunno but i expect to own the product that i buy. If not why even bother?
That said i guess that kespa will be losing out even though i feel that they are doing somethibg just to protect their interests since everything that had made starcraft bw so popular was due to the fact that people like flash boxer saviour and every living scbw legend showed them stuff that was never intended to be part of the game.(muta stacking)
To be honest, I pretty much agree. Blizzard owes the Korean scene quite a lot for its own success. However, I can also understand Blizzard's point-of-view. It's a company after all. All in all, I think KESPA will be fighting a losing battle if they go on with this. It might take a while but the Korean youngsters will end up prefering newer games and the foreigner scenes will catch up.
I hope they come into some agreement, I really do.
I honestly think that most of you guys here are totally wrong.. So what if B made the game? without KeSPA SC would be dead long time ago. It's like saying England(or whoever came up with soccer) has the right to claim UEFA CL as their own? Or? Is this what people are trying to say? This meeting is like if the queen of England went to to Milan, Barcelona and Real Madrid saying they should come play this new sport (lets call it "soccer 2") and stealing them from UEFA. Honestly, pretty ridicoulus move from B. This shows that B realizes how much Korean pro gaming scene means to the game itself, and im sure they are willing to put some money out to get them over to SC2.
Even if KeSPA has made some bad stuff during the years with some rules here and there, they are still #1 in Korea. I'm pretty sure the teams see them as fathers, and the spectators of the game see them as creators of this scene.
Those pro teams will never turn KeSPA down. It is just kind of Korean culture, they are very protective, thats what make Korea become a economic power so fast as they are right now. They ditched the foreign car and use Korean cars when they were worse products compare to US and Jap cars. Same can be said for SC2. Pro teams will back KeSPA decision and will ignore SC2. We can only hope that somehow KeSPA and Blizzard will both back down and try to listen to each other.
On March 03 2010 20:53 _EmIL_ wrote: I honestly think that most of you guys here are totally wrong.. So what if B made the game? without KeSPA SC would be dead long time ago. It's like saying England(or whoever came up with soccer) has the right to claim UEFA CL as their own? Or? Is this what people are trying to say? This meeting is like if the queen of England went to to Milan, Barcelona and Real Madrid saying they should come play this new sport (lets call it "soccer 2") and stealing them from UEFA. Honestly, pretty ridicoulus move from B. This shows that B realizes how much Korean pro gaming scene means to the game itself, and im sure they are willing to put some money out to get them over to SC2.
Even if KeSPA has made some bad stuff during the years with some rules here and there, they are still #1 in Korea. I'm pretty sure the teams see them as fathers, and the spectators of the game see them as creators of this scene.
You REALLY need to be educated on the development of the Starcraft scene because everything you just wrote is so wrong.
Sounds like KeSPA are trying to play a dangerous negotiating game here. If Blizzard try to cut them out they can threaten to screw everyone over by blackmailing OGN/MBC out of broadcasting rights.. however if they do that, they stand to lose a lot more than Blizzard.
I really hope Blizzard are confident in what they're doing and call KeSPA's bluff on this one. SC2 can survive and thrive without KeSPA. On the other hand, it would be a shame if KeSPA then became stubborn and refused to negotiate out of spite, even though they'd lose revenue without embracing SC2. I wouldn't put that past them at this point.
On March 03 2010 19:43 T.O.P. wrote: I wonder. Do Blizzard retains all rights to games played by it's users? If I play a game, does Blizzard own my replay? If they don't how can Blizzard charge for a license when it's the players (Kespa) who are creating the content?
Your replay is just a file on your computer, there's no real ownership to it so it's not quite the same.
But if you intended to make money off of showing your replay Blizzard would be entitled to a piece of the cake since they spent 7 years + and alot of money and hard work on creating the game that you would essentially be making money off of. With that being said, seeing how Blizzard sponsored GOM and made them "certified" it really seems like they want to support E-Sport financially, not charge for it, they just want the control of what people are doing with their game, and don't want others to profit from their work.
Edit: They don't own "The match" that you played, they just own the platform you played it on, a match is just a series of specific events in time.
How come Ford/Subaru/GM/Chevrolet/etc. don't make money (control) from the cars racing in premier races across the world? Because you own that product once you buy it and you can do with it as you want since it is your property. Blizzard is not entitled to anything once you buy their product. When I buy something I expect to own it.
Anyways, let's be done with this. I hope Kespa goes down the proverbial toilet. There is money to be had, and someone else will fill the void, and you can't get much worse than Kespa....so whoever it is by default would at least be somewhat better!
I think this would be the reason they're pushing Battle.net. In the car analogy, they're trying to own the track ( <_< ) so that while the customer owns the car/game, they still need to pay for the thing it has to be run on (which I assume is how racing works).
On March 03 2010 19:55 Rothbardian wrote: How come Ford/Subaru/GM/Chevrolet/etc. don't make money (control) from the cars racing in premier races across the world? Because you own that product once you buy it and you can do with it as you want since it is your property. Blizzard is not entitled to anything once you buy their product. When I buy something I expect to own it.
I don't want to enter a legal discussion, but your analogy does not apply. Whatever you expect when you "buy" software is not important, it is a simple matter of fact that you do not "own" it (just like you don't "own" a song, if you buy the CD). Intellectual property is not bought, like a car is, you merely buy the licence to use it (that's also why intellectual property cannot be "stolen", in the same legal sense a car can be). Blizzard had a good legal case to shut down Kespa, if they would really want it (ever more so if they could sue them in the U.S., which they probably can't though). However, they would probably alienate a big part of their hardcore fanbase in Korea, so it would not be a good idea.
Their approach with SC2 is very "clever" there, because they will probably force users to play on battle.net as part of the licence agreement (which is exactly why they don't offer LAN support imo). This will make it very hard for Kespa to run the show without Blizzard for SC2 and is probably also why Kespa wants to show off their "power" as long as they still can.
On March 03 2010 19:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: lol there are enough talented, diligent korean SC players that the current roster of every pro SC team can be totally absent from SC2 and there will still be a large korean presence
if blizzard's got everything on lockdown, KeSPA can't do shit about it. They can't interfere with SC2 teams outside their sphere of influence, and they can't organize or broadcast pro SC2. They're retarded to think they're a vital part of the infrastructure ^_^
This.
KeSPA is so incredibly naive if they think they have any value what so ever in the sc2 scene.
Also its kind of funny how they make KeSPA sound like some kind of gamer union. Looks to me like their purpose is the opposite of a union. Treat the players as badly as possible to gain as much m oney as possible. KeSPA is NOT progaming.
Why so much hate towards Kespa?? Blizzard should show some respect here, instead of trying to ignore them and get straight to teams/players. I totally understand Kespa's position since they did so much for SC in Korea. You can't just ignore them ...
On March 03 2010 19:07 {88}iNcontroL wrote: In the end it isn't blizzard that gets hurt by Kespa's arrogance however.. it will be the proteams/kespa. Going to war with the company that CREATED/MAINTAINS and OWNS the game you base your entire existence sounds absolutely retarded.
Yes I understand the gray area involved and the "complicated" actuality of this but.. I cannot imagine kespa benefiting in the end from this "war."
Agreed Inc. I figured they would pull something like this though and everything in there sounds accurate.
Besides that, the players are paid to play SC:BW, not SC2. There is no reason for anyone in Pro League to play it. Some players will make the switch.
As much as I dislike Kespa... I dislike Blizz just as much.
Together they might be well able to fuck up esports.
Besides, Blizzard's vision of Esports is laughable, while one could argue Kespa is a bit "more realistic" because of their (shit?) experience in the business.
I still don't understand people talking about Esports outside Korea.
Wake up, it doesn't exist. That's where Korean "rights over Esports" come from. Because they fucking created it.
Edit : More.
If Blizzard wants to make esports what about they buy half a building in a major american city and make there a broadcasting studio ?
Truth is blizzard wants the broadcasting money without doing any broadcasting. haha.
On March 03 2010 21:45 cyclone25 wrote: Why so much hate towards Kespa?? Blizzard should show some respect here, instead of trying to ignore them and get straight to teams/players. I totally understand Kespa's position since they did so much for SC in Korea. You can't just ignore them ...
Agree here. I don't know how much control should be given to either party in the Blizzard vs Kespa war but some of the kespa hate here is pretty unwarranted. Think where would SC1 progaming be if only blizzard had a say and no one else? Remember how the blizzard maps, league, strategy guide, etc sucked? Without foreign bodies like kespa, SC1 would be nowhere near what it is now today.
Have to agree with the guy above me. Outside Korea, there is no esport. You can not call a tournament of some random games here and there is esport. E-sport is like any other sport( football/basketball...) they are systems that include players amatures and pros. They also include TV broadcasters. OGN/ MBC Game are like ESPN and Starsport of the e-sport scence. They also include a comittee that keep things organize and updating the rule. That comittee in e-sport is KeSPA( is it Korea E-Sport Association?)。 Blizzard cant just kick the comittee out off the table. And the last thing is the Korean culture, like I mentioned in my previous post. Koreans are protective, and pro-teams like Samsung, KTF will never turn their back on KeSPA so as the Korean progamers. As much as I want e-sport work out for SC2, and as much as I love Blizzard, but I think Blizzard has to back down at some point if they really care about the e-sport in general.
On March 03 2010 20:59 _EmIL_ wrote: Please enlighten me. Don't just say im wrong, say where and give what you think.
I'm fairly new to SC community but this is my impression. Exactly how is it then? And can someone confirm what this guy is saying?
There are many indepth threads about the issue but heres the jist of it - kespa came into existence comparatively late in the piece - foundations of esports can mostly be attributed to boxer - the teams do not see kespa as fathers at all - kespa is mostly made up of coaches of proteams these days (last i heard coach park of skt was charing it) - kespa's existence has not helped SC stay alive one bit, indeed it almost killed SC when it sold the Proleauge rights (which it really didn't own anyway) to IEG
LOL in Korea KeSPA is dubbed as DogSPA for a good reason. They don't fcking represent pro gamers' best interests. They didn't create eSport in Korea. They weren't even that good at their most basic jobs which are refereeing and regulating eSports.
If you don't know that, you haven't followed progaming long enough. If you think of "KeSPA" as an umbrella term for the players, the teams, and the entire eSports infrastructure in Korea, you're dead wrong.
Btw who said without KeSPA Blizzard will have to create the whole scene again from step 1? They can just hand SC2 and tournament hosting rights to GOM, problem solved.
On March 03 2010 19:07 {88}iNcontroL wrote: In the end it isn't blizzard that gets hurt by Kespa's arrogance however.. it will be the proteams/kespa. Going to war with the company that CREATED/MAINTAINS and OWNS the game you base your entire existence sounds absolutely retarded.
Yes I understand the gray area involved and the "complicated" actuality of this but.. I cannot imagine kespa benefiting in the end from this "war."
I don't like Kespa, but I rather think that in this case, Blizzard just saw that they could make a shiload of more money on the back of the pro-scene and that Kespa is perfectly right not to accept blindly this blackmail. Why did Blizzard removed lan from SC2? Think about that.
I don't like Kespa, but I don't like Blizzard, even though they do amazing games. They are just profit whore. Look at the obscene price of a month of WoW.
Point being, I think Blizzard is wrong, because although they didn't make any money directly from it, the pro-scene and kespa has made a huge part of the success of Starcraft and of the future success of Starcraft2.
On March 03 2010 19:38 Puosu wrote: I think media/us don't know the exact details on this whole case, there's no way KeSPA would be stupid enough to keep fighting Blizzard like this when Morhaime could just snap his fingers and order KeSPA to be shut down in a matter of days.
And a lot of things have happened since wc3 was released, sc2 has a far bigger chance of putting bw progaming to a peaceful sleep.
It seems that KeSPA's pretty dumb as a corporate entity. I just wonder if SC2 has the capacity to be the eSport Blizzard thinks it can be.
all you kids commenting about how "wrong" kespa is don't realize that they have the only e-sports model proven to be financially sustainable over the long term. Blizzard would do good to partner with them instead of trying to replace them, not just in korea but internationally as well. why?
1.) Kespa has been proven to be an effective marketer of videogames to the noncompetitive, casual gamer, as well as the nongamer... and most significantly, women. As any sports marketing director knows, the way to maintain a long-term fanbase is to satisfy the hardcore fans while attracting the casual fan, especially females. It's specifically the reason why EVERY olympics, superbowl, nba championship whatever has some sort of heart-felt story about a person/player recovering/overcoming/fighting through some sort of physical/traumatic/death-in-the-family experience. And it's the same reason why Progaming Television techniques attach as much significance to the personality of a player -- as well as his sex appeal -- as their talent.
On the other hand, notice how Blizzard is emphasizing online tournaments and forcing everyone to go through Bnet, eliminating the face attached to the game that makes the the Korean Starcraft Scene so personable. Would you have team loyalties, player loyalties, fan clubs, merchandise, or effeminate pictures if Bisu's face wasn't broadcast with his game? Course not! And yet Blizzard, in their quest for a WoW-like continuous revenue source, is going to create a system that not only forces royalties but counter-productively dehumanizes the game and alienates potential fans.
Some of you people might bring up WoW as an example of Blizzard's ability to attract non-hardcore gamers. Trust me, MMORPGs are completely different from competitive gaming. You can get fat ugly divorcees playing such games (a la secondlife) but that is not relevant to their interest in competitive gaming.
2.) Kespa has the best E-sports revenue model. This is almost undeniable. KeSPA's revenue model is so well-run that it doesn't have to charge for seating at its games. How fucking ridiculous is that. Imagine a sport like Football or basketball or whatever being able to create enough revenue from advertising to outweigh the expenses of paying players, maintaining a stadium, front office overhead, etc. This is just so freaking mindblowing that i'm surprised it doesn't get more notice. And the reason why they're able to do this is cuz of their partnerships with OGN and MBCGame, two DEDICATED tv networks backed by huge corporations (OnMedia and MBC).
You could argue they got lucky to have TV channels willing to take the risk and broadcast pro-gaming. but how the hell were they able to convince them in the first place? How were they able to show that Starcraft carries with it a tangible, outstanding interest that can be translated into advertising revenue? Once again, it goes back to marketing. Every epic new game that comes out is able to create spikes in interest for a short period of time. But you can't sustain it over the long term without attracting the casual gamer and the nongamer.
You know what else helps maintain their revenue model? They don't have to worry about any "morality" strikes from upset parents with old-traditional values. Why is that? It's cuz..
3.) KeSPA is effectively a government lobbyist. Tell me something. Do you ever fathom there will be a videogaming lobby in the US? Course not! They can't create a significant enough constituency with the current gaming crowd in america, which is becoming a bit more diverse in attracting female gamers but does not have enough "normal" people.
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Now let's talk about Blizzard. First, they make great games. Second, mostly due to WoW, blizzard no longer is interested in the "potential revenue" that comes with popularity --> interest --> advertising dollars. This is cuz they built a realizable, continuous revenue machine with WoW... and now they want a similar system with SC2. There's no other way to explain why they're making THREE games when the only thing that'll be different is storylines or why they're excluding LAN and forcing everyone to get approval from them in broadcasting their games. In other words, they're NOT creating an "esports division" because they think can do better (they can't.) but because they want to make money.
This post is already tl;dr but i want to add one last point. Korea is known to be a marketing hell where only the fittest survive. Winning the approval of Korean customers is like the Gold seal of approval for every fashion brand interested in gaining an Asian fanbase. Look up Prada in Korea for one example of a brand that invested a gang of money and created all sorts of diverse marketing strategies to win the korean customers, especially since how Korea rolls, a LOT of asia follows with them. Blizzard would be smart to realize two things: 1.) ESPORTS in america will never come to fruition because there's no way to create the demand necessary for advertising revenue, and 2.) if blizzard wants to be a huge part of the Asian Esports scene, they should partner with Kespa and proliferate their revenue model + marketing strategy across the continent.
in response to every "why the kespa hate" message kespa killed gomtv almost as soon as soon as gom merged with blizzard by forcing almost all of the teams to withdraw, that was a major power play against blizzard, and now obviously blizzard are pissed at kespa, they couldnt really screw them over with sc1, becuase it would be shooting themselves in the foot, however, they are clearly trying to freeze kespa out of sc2 so they never loose that level of controll again, and i for one am a fan of that, kespa got too big for their boots and now they're being taken down a notch, good for blizzard, sc2 will survive and thrive with or without kespa, there will always be somone willing broardcast the shows if they think it will get ratings, kespa is powerless atm, and the massive money giant that is blizzard is going to show them who's boss! \m/ rock on blizzard
In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one)
On March 03 2010 22:46 Mogget wrote: in response to every "why the kespa hate" message kespa killed gomtv almost as soon as soon as gom merged with blizzard by forcing almost all of the teams to withdraw, that was a major power play against blizzard, and now obviously blizzard are pissed at kespa, they couldnt really screw them over with sc1, becuase it would be shooting themselves in the foot, however, they are clearly trying to freeze kespa out of sc2 so they never loose that level of controll again, and i for one am a fan of that, kespa got too big for their boots and now they're being taken down a notch, good for blizzard, sc2 will survive and thrive with or without kespa, there will always be somone willing broardcast the shows if they think it will get ratings, kespa is powerless atm, and the massive money giant that is blizzard is going to show them who's boss! \m/ rock on blizzard
On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote: In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one)
Look guys. I know a lot of people had a soft spot for GOM because they catered to the international audience, but Kespa crushing GOM didn't have as much to do with Blizzard as you may think. Remember that from season 1, many teams refused to participate with GOM cuz it was not Kespa sanctioned. As GOM grew in popularity, it became like the ABA to the NBA back in the seventies, or for a more recent but irrelevant example due to the nature of pro wrestling, the XFL to the NFL. But the thing is, what if the ABA or the XFL actually contracted NBA or NFL players? They would be infringing upon the NBA/NFL's agreement with their respective player's unions as well as screwing with their (NBA, NFL) monopoly rights that the US government has granted them. If a league were to come into existence right now and tried to use MLB players in concurrence with the MLB season, you can be certain that the MLB will use every method to crush this other league.
It's the same thing with starcraft. Starcraft's TV revenue rivals those of other real sports like basketball, though perhaps not as much as baseball and soccer. In korea, starcraft is a real SPORT that leads to revenue for KESPA. There's no reason for them to allow their players to play in other leagues and diminish the power they have to recruit advertising money.
Blizzard was the straw that broke the camel's back. Yeah, it was a bit of a powerplay, but that shit started way before
On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote: In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one)
The fact they're bad at what they're doing doesn't mean they don't give a buck about their source of income.
d_so, all the 3 underlined points you said were correct but they are NOT due to KeSPA, but mostly OGN, MBC and leader gamers like Boxer. As Plexa said in his post, KeSPA was formed much later after eSports has been well established. They actually almost killed eSports once.
On March 03 2010 22:42 d_so wrote: 2.) Kespa has the best E-sports revenue model. This is almost undeniable. KeSPA's revenue model is so well-run that it doesn't have to charge for seating at its games. How fucking ridiculous is that. Imagine a sport like Football or basketball or whatever being able to create enough revenue from advertising to outweigh the expenses of paying players, maintaining a stadium, front office overhead, etc. This is just so freaking mindblowing that i'm surprised it doesn't get more notice. And the reason why they're able to do this is cuz of their partnerships with OGN and MBCGame, two DEDICATED tv networks backed by huge corporations (OnMedia and MBC).
I'm also guessing it has one of the lowest paid proffesional wages / air time of any sport in the world, however that is purely speculation.
What people need to realize is that both parties stand pretty much toe to toe in this. Both have about equal means to threaten each other it's not all like one party has the upper hand.
Blizzard could drag Kespa to court over copyright, but it's the last thing they want to do. A case like this would be dragged out for years, cost a lot, and the result would be entirely uncertain. The IP of computer game generated content has not been resolved at all in court anywhere as far as I know. Together with the production value the Korean TV broadcasts add to the product it is not at all clear who really owns the copyright to the TV rights, or who owns how much. The "best" Blizzard could hope for is shutting down pro BW after spending a lot of money and time in court - something that isn't at all in their interest. They would only lose.
On the other hand, Kespa can't continue with SC2 as they did with BW. Demanding licensing and challenging IP would be much easier for SC2 in the beginning from Blizzard perspective. However, Kespa could refuse to cooperate and use their influence over the TV stations and the teams to not give SC2 any recognition. Again, this is the last thing they want to do as well. The result would be equally uncertain as Blizzard's prospect suing Kespa. They might push SC2 in a niche, and continue to live off decreasing BW interest. But it might also create a new rival, whether this would be GOM or a completely new entity. The "best" they can hope for is destroying or hurting SC2's success while also hurting the value of their current product. They would only lose.
The two have equally disastrous means to hurt and thus threaten each other, but out of their own interest they won't do so, and both know it. So what we see are all those petty little maneuvers with which they try to demonstrate who has the upper hand. In the end, they will have to work together, or ignore each other enough that both can still do business.
On March 03 2010 22:56 mrdx wrote: d_so, all the 3 underlined points you said were correct but they are NOT due to KeSPA, but mostly OGN, MBC and leader gamers like Boxer. As Plexa said in his post, KeSPA was formed much later after eSports has been well established. They actually almost killed eSports once.
whether or not Kespa wasn't the originator of the system doesn't matter as long as they represent the interests of the creators. it's kinda like saying the US congress doesn't represent the Constitution because the Founding Fathers were a part of the Confederate of States
On March 03 2010 22:42 d_so wrote: 2.) Kespa has the best E-sports revenue model. This is almost undeniable. KeSPA's revenue model is so well-run that it doesn't have to charge for seating at its games. How fucking ridiculous is that. Imagine a sport like Football or basketball or whatever being able to create enough revenue from advertising to outweigh the expenses of paying players, maintaining a stadium, front office overhead, etc. This is just so freaking mindblowing that i'm surprised it doesn't get more notice. And the reason why they're able to do this is cuz of their partnerships with OGN and MBCGame, two DEDICATED tv networks backed by huge corporations (OnMedia and MBC).
I'm also guessing it has one of the lowest paid proffesional wages / air time of any sport in the world, however that is purely speculation.
a big part of why the wages are so low is cuz wages in general are low in korea. part time workers here get paid 4 bucks an hour as minimum pay. Teachers, even with 20+ years of experience, get at max 3,000 a month. However, what Korea does have is ridiculous fucking labor laws that makes it almost impossible to get fired. so what they have is a low wage system with a lot of job security
On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote: In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one)
The fact they're bad at what they're doing doesn't mean they don't give a buck about their source of income.
Stupid.
I don't want to derail this into a KeSPA bashing thread (there are a thoudsand threads on that here already) but you are right, it sounds so stupid but it was what KeSPA did.
On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote: In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one)
Add to that, look at how Kespa handled Leta typing "pp" instead of "ppp," Oversky getting two forfeit losses and a warning for slight mistyping in his OSL qualifiers, Flash's father being forced out of MBCGame studio by security because of the automatically giving a win to Jaedong.
I am NOT trying to argue whether or not Jaedong deserved to win the MSL, the point here is that the players are getting screwed OVER by Kespa rather than treated well. Even the KT coaches threw a massive fit over the MSL conflict - a LOT of people were pissed. Fans in Korea and even TL were upset over it.
I also remember Artosis in a video saying that even in the progamer drafts there's a lot of corruption and disrespect involved.
I don't know if Blizzard is in it for the money or not, but I will say this much: Kespa does NOT represent the players' best interests in ANY way. Kespa has made SO MANY decisions to screw over players and pissed off so many netizens in the past. Even before Blizzard stepped in, GOM was already missing teams in its competition. Money or not, it's very obvious that Kespa is a very corrupt organization that wants to control everything and does not even want to SHARE their control over Esports whatsoever.
Consider this: the first thing Blizzard did was simply OFFER A MONETARY PRIZE to the GOM tournament. Blizzard didn't try to run its own SC tournament, it gave sponsor money to a private tournament trying to make its own stake in esports. What does Kespa do? Withdraw every team from GOM because MBC and OGN didn't want to compete with it.
Kespa really needs to disappear. Blizzard or no Blizzard, an organization needs to exist that isn't going to screw players over once every few months for typing two p's instead of three in a game.
On March 03 2010 22:56 mrdx wrote: d_so, all the 3 underlined points you said were correct but they are NOT due to KeSPA, but mostly OGN, MBC and leader gamers like Boxer. As Plexa said in his post, KeSPA was formed much later after eSports has been well established. They actually almost killed eSports once.
whether or not Kespa wasn't the originator of the system doesn't matter as long as they represent the interests of the creators. it's kinda like saying the US congress doesn't represent the Constitution because the Founding Fathers were a part of the Confederate of States
I see your point there but I think it's rather important that the fans - don't give KeSPA credits for what they didn't do - see clearly who KeSPA is working for, whose interests they actually represent
I don't think (though not sure) that Korean government granted KeSPA the right to solely control everything related to eSports in Korea. If that's not the case, your analogy of US congress might not apply because GOM, OGN or MBC might very well form another organisation with their own system of players and leagues.
Actually, i think that KeSPA is doing such an outrageous decision to snub blizzard is due to the fact that they are actually certain that the progamers would support their decision for the moment. Look at jaedong,flash and bisu. They have played SCBW for so many years that it would be stupid for them to suddenly change games to SC2 where they are wholly uncertain to everything inside. And since they are making a living off playing SCBW, why would they dig their own graves to go and play SC2?
Although i must agree that the phenomenon of SC2 taking over the progaming scene and replacing its predecessor is definitely something that cannot be avoided, no matter how slow or how long it takes in Korea. Once this happens, KeSPA would have to make a concession, although maybe the players would lose their title and fame awarded to them due to the change in games where there are already recognized players (david kim)
I also have to admit that KeSPA makes the most ridiculous decisions at times..
2.) Kespa has the best E-sports revenue model. This is almost undeniable. KeSPA's revenue model is so well-run that it doesn't have to charge for seating at its games. How fucking ridiculous is that. Imagine a sport like Football or basketball or whatever being able to create enough revenue from advertising to outweigh the expenses of paying players, maintaining a stadium, front office overhead, etc. This is just so freaking mindblowing that i'm surprised it doesn't get more notice. And the reason why they're able to do this is cuz of their partnerships with OGN and MBCGame, two DEDICATED tv networks backed by huge corporations (OnMedia and MBC).
I'm also guessing it has one of the lowest paid proffesional wages / air time of any sport in the world, however that is purely speculation.
a big part of why the wages are so low is cuz wages in general are low in korea. part time workers here get paid 4 bucks an hour as minimum pay. Teachers, even with 20+ years of experience, get at max 3,000 a month. However, what Korea does have is ridiculous fucking labor laws that makes it almost impossible to get fired. so what they have is a low wage system with a lot of job security
4$ an hour?! thats freaking insane, is cost of living really that extremely low?
2.) Kespa has the best E-sports revenue model. This is almost undeniable. KeSPA's revenue model is so well-run that it doesn't have to charge for seating at its games. How fucking ridiculous is that. Imagine a sport like Football or basketball or whatever being able to create enough revenue from advertising to outweigh the expenses of paying players, maintaining a stadium, front office overhead, etc. This is just so freaking mindblowing that i'm surprised it doesn't get more notice. And the reason why they're able to do this is cuz of their partnerships with OGN and MBCGame, two DEDICATED tv networks backed by huge corporations (OnMedia and MBC).
I'm also guessing it has one of the lowest paid proffesional wages / air time of any sport in the world, however that is purely speculation.
a big part of why the wages are so low is cuz wages in general are low in korea. part time workers here get paid 4 bucks an hour as minimum pay. Teachers, even with 20+ years of experience, get at max 3,000 a month. However, what Korea does have is ridiculous fucking labor laws that makes it almost impossible to get fired. so what they have is a low wage system with a lot of job security
4$ an hour?! thats freaking insane, is cost of living really that extremely low?
On March 03 2010 23:33 Boonbag wrote: When I was in Korea a TGI waiter was making 2200 won / hour. T_T
Cost of living isn't low like other asian countries -- china, thailand, vietnam, etc. I don't know how they do it, I think it has a lot to do with younger people still living with their parents and as such don't need as much money since their dad still brings in hella $$$ cuz he has years in service, seniority and etc.
and yeah, 4,000 sucks but 2200 is even worse haha. you must have been here like a decade ago
On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote: In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one)
Add to that, look at how Kespa handled Leta typing "pp" instead of "ppp," Oversky getting two forfeit losses and a warning for slight mistyping in his OSL qualifiers, Flash's father being forced out of MBCGame studio by security because of the automatically giving a win to Jaedong.
I am NOT trying to argue whether or not Jaedong deserved to win the MSL, the point here is that the players are getting screwed OVER by Kespa rather than treated well. Even the KT coaches threw a massive fit over the MSL conflict - a LOT of people were pissed. Fans in Korea and even TL were upset over it.
I also remember Artosis in a video saying that even in the progamer drafts there's a lot of corruption and disrespect involved.
I don't know if Blizzard is in it for the money or not, but I will say this much: Kespa does NOT represent the players' best interests in ANY way. Kespa has made SO MANY decisions to screw over players and pissed off so many netizens in the past. Even before Blizzard stepped in, GOM was already missing teams in its competition. Money or not, it's very obvious that Kespa is a very corrupt organization that wants to control everything and does not even want to SHARE their control over Esports whatsoever.
Consider this: the first thing Blizzard did was simply OFFER A MONETARY PRIZE to the GOM tournament. Blizzard didn't try to run its own SC tournament, it gave sponsor money to a private tournament trying to make its own stake in esports. What does Kespa do? Withdraw every team from GOM because MBC and OGN didn't want to compete with it.
Kespa really needs to disappear. Blizzard or no Blizzard, an organization needs to exist that isn't going to screw players over once every few months for typing two p's instead of three in a game.
i understand your anger towards them and their failures in terms of officiating but you could use a similar argument to claim the NBA as dysfunctional for suspending Suns players during the Suns/Spurs games for leaving the bench without throwing a punch.
sometimes, organizations feel they must enforce the letter of the law even if it's agaisnt the spirit of the law. it happens.
actually you could hate every other sports organization way more for fucking up the future of their respective leagues for allowing strikes to happen.
On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote: In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one)
Add to that, look at how Kespa handled Leta typing "pp" instead of "ppp," Oversky getting two forfeit losses and a warning for slight mistyping in his OSL qualifiers, Flash's father being forced out of MBCGame studio by security because of the automatically giving a win to Jaedong.
I am NOT trying to argue whether or not Jaedong deserved to win the MSL, the point here is that the players are getting screwed OVER by Kespa rather than treated well. Even the KT coaches threw a massive fit over the MSL conflict - a LOT of people were pissed. Fans in Korea and even TL were upset over it.
I also remember Artosis in a video saying that even in the progamer drafts there's a lot of corruption and disrespect involved.
I don't know if Blizzard is in it for the money or not, but I will say this much: Kespa does NOT represent the players' best interests in ANY way. Kespa has made SO MANY decisions to screw over players and pissed off so many netizens in the past. Even before Blizzard stepped in, GOM was already missing teams in its competition. Money or not, it's very obvious that Kespa is a very corrupt organization that wants to control everything and does not even want to SHARE their control over Esports whatsoever.
Consider this: the first thing Blizzard did was simply OFFER A MONETARY PRIZE to the GOM tournament. Blizzard didn't try to run its own SC tournament, it gave sponsor money to a private tournament trying to make its own stake in esports. What does Kespa do? Withdraw every team from GOM because MBC and OGN didn't want to compete with it.
Kespa really needs to disappear. Blizzard or no Blizzard, an organization needs to exist that isn't going to screw players over once every few months for typing two p's instead of three in a game.
i understand your anger towards them and their failures in terms of officiating but you could use a similar argument to claim the NBA as dysfunctional for suspending Suns players during the Suns/Spurs games for leaving the bench without throwing a punch.
sometimes, organizations feel they must enforce the letter of the law even if it's agaisnt the spirit of the law. it happens.
actually you could hate every other sports organization way more for fucking up the future of their respective leagues for allowing strikes to happen.
Except the NBA doesn't screw over players and teams several times a month and most teams actually have a say, unlike in Kespa where teams don't really have a say in anything unless it's SKT1 because the President of Kespa runs SK Telecom.
hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!? it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days.
I agree with what zatic said. It's really stupid to try to make and judgement on who is right or wrong in this case, because legally, it's so incredible far from being sorted, it's really ridiculous to just talk about it. It would (and probably will) take many many lawyers years of work to figure and maybe even legislative steps at some point to decide on the matter. Probably, when there is enough money in it, at one point somebody will go to court. Right now, there is nowhere near enough money in it and the prestige loss will certainly outweigh the gain anyway. Even morally, it's pointless to discuss it, because both sides have fair points and the right way will lie in the middle somewhere. Nobody knows enough about how exactly both parties interact to say one of them was morally better than the other.
Since so many people are bashing KeSPA, I also want to point out that a governing body is something very vital to eSports as it is to any other sport. Without it, many many parties would constantly be trying to steal their part of the viewer attention by changing rules, trying to bind players/teams, getting exclusive rights etc. etc. from which the sport and the viewers will suffer. It's not like KeSPA has done Broodwar a little good and a little bad; without KeSPA, Broodwar might have very well died in Korea. There were already times when fights between TV channels threatened to tear it apart.
As far as Broodwar is concerned, I wouldn't give any credit to Blizzard at all, because they did nothing to enable pro-gaming. They just happened to be lucky to be the creators of that game. However, for the future, I agree that the game developer also should get some share of the revenues. Not "because of all the hard work they put into making the game". That's a naive fairy-tale argument. But game developers have to have an incentive to create games which are suited for eSports. We all know too well that the interests of casual gamers, who bring in the majority of sells, and eSports fans don't fit together. So if a company is to create a game for eSports, they will lose money at the initial sales and there must be a way to make them profit from the continued success of their game in progaming. Blizzard has certainly had that in mind all the time, which is why they must make some money out of licensing as to not set a bad example for the future.
I'm pretty certain however, that it would be a useless case of vertical integration, if game developers would also take the place of governing bodies or even organizers for their eSports products. So KeSPA should continue making the rules but pay a certain amount of money to Blizzard.
On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote: hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!? it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days.
On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote: hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!? it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days.
And how would they do that?
They go into Battle.Net and push the "ban all Korean sc2 account until further notice".
On March 03 2010 22:46 mrdx wrote: In the past few years, KeSPA has been incredibly childish, greedy and short sighted in every important decision they made that it appeared as if even a bunch of 14 year olds could do a better jobs.
Some posts in this thread saying Blizzard should step back against KeSPA for the future of eSports and shit but you need to realize the fact that KeSPA doesn't give a shit about the future of eSport itself. Look at how they handled the Proleague broadcasting rights issue, the Free Agents, how they banned GOM.. KeSPA is nothing but a representative of the corporates who only care about short term profits and what they could squeeze out of the progamers and the 2 channels (which are the true father of eSport if you have to point out one)
Add to that, look at how Kespa handled Leta typing "pp" instead of "ppp," Oversky getting two forfeit losses and a warning for slight mistyping in his OSL qualifiers, Flash's father being forced out of MBCGame studio by security because of the automatically giving a win to Jaedong.
I am NOT trying to argue whether or not Jaedong deserved to win the MSL, the point here is that the players are getting screwed OVER by Kespa rather than treated well. Even the KT coaches threw a massive fit over the MSL conflict - a LOT of people were pissed. Fans in Korea and even TL were upset over it.
I also remember Artosis in a video saying that even in the progamer drafts there's a lot of corruption and disrespect involved.
I don't know if Blizzard is in it for the money or not, but I will say this much: Kespa does NOT represent the players' best interests in ANY way. Kespa has made SO MANY decisions to screw over players and pissed off so many netizens in the past. Even before Blizzard stepped in, GOM was already missing teams in its competition. Money or not, it's very obvious that Kespa is a very corrupt organization that wants to control everything and does not even want to SHARE their control over Esports whatsoever.
Consider this: the first thing Blizzard did was simply OFFER A MONETARY PRIZE to the GOM tournament. Blizzard didn't try to run its own SC tournament, it gave sponsor money to a private tournament trying to make its own stake in esports. What does Kespa do? Withdraw every team from GOM because MBC and OGN didn't want to compete with it.
Kespa really needs to disappear. Blizzard or no Blizzard, an organization needs to exist that isn't going to screw players over once every few months for typing two p's instead of three in a game.
i understand your anger towards them and their failures in terms of officiating but you could use a similar argument to claim the NBA as dysfunctional for suspending Suns players during the Suns/Spurs games for leaving the bench without throwing a punch.
sometimes, organizations feel they must enforce the letter of the law even if it's agaisnt the spirit of the law. it happens.
actually you could hate every other sports organization way more for fucking up the future of their respective leagues for allowing strikes to happen.
Except the NBA doesn't screw over players and teams several times a month and most teams actually have a say, unlike in Kespa where teams don't really have a say in anything unless it's SKT1 because the President of Kespa runs SK Telecom.
no, they only screw them once a decade, aka until their CBA expires... except that when they do, they screw them by not having a season for months. watch what happens in 2years with the nba.
and really, if officiating makes you so mad you can carry the same argument to every league. Lakers Kings playoffs 2001 (2000?). Donaughy. NFL before video replays. Baseball and steroids. etc etc.
basically, using an organization's shitty officiating as reason to overthrow it just doesn't work when considering the context of other sports organizations.
Hey I liked a lot of what you said, but I'm really confused about this:
On March 03 2010 23:59 Asta wrote: We all know too well that the interests of casual gamers, who bring in the majority of sells, and eSports fans don't fit together. So if a company is to create a game for eSports, they will lose money at the initial sales...
i don't get it. casual gamers --> majority of spectators and is what drives esports in korea.
On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote: hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!? it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days.
And how would they do that?
They go into Battle.Net and push the "ban all Korean sc2 account until further notice".
Thats not going to shut down the SC proscene and they wouldn't do that anyway
if there was no kespa korean progaming teams will fall apart sooner or later..it's great they stick together under kespa... i know kespa does some dumbest things but it is absolutely necessary
What's to stop blizzard just toally crushing KeSPA? Ignoring the right/wrong debate, which I think is useless, this is a fight that comes down to who has the biggest stick, moral or not. Blizzard has a rediculous amount of money at it's disposal, epsecaily if you count activision too, the biggest game company in the world and I think they said on thier conference call that they are the 3rd largest software company in the world in some aspect like distribution or development or something, which is just insane.
Anyways my point is that blizzard could easily crush kespa, all it needs to do is set up it's own sc2 league in korea, offer bigger prize money and salaries than KeSPA's leagues do and then either buy thier way onto OGN and MBC or just set up thier own cannels, they have the money. Just think about it now, your a B-teamer or a low grade A-teamer and your earing peanuts in your current team, and there is no competetion in sc2 becuase of KeSPA's rules to stop them playing sc2, so you set up a team or join one and get paid like 3-4times becuase not only do blizzard offer more but the competition is less. And then KeSPA are fucked, becuase they lose thier progamers and can't compete with blizzards prize money and they can't set up an sc2 league becuase of the terms of service.
On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote: hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!? it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days.
And how would they do that?
They go into Battle.Net and push the "ban all Korean sc2 account until further notice".
And why would they pull of this kind of nazi-crap?.....
KeSpa is a company and company's have one goal: MONEY. Naturally, KeSpa is just afraid that Blizzard will wan't to control the whole tournament-scene etc., so they wouldn't really have a justifiable existance anymore. Like with the discussion that SC2 cannot be played over LAN, but only the B.Net (I actually don't know whether this is in fact the case or if they've changed that. '^^).
Blizzard and KeSpa both have to accept, that they need to find a solution together, because I think it would be extremely stupid by Blizzard to try to shut down a Company that has pushed SC1 to where it is right now. So many people think Korea is the eSport-mecca and those people have to accept that it was hugely because of KeSpa, even if they often pull dibious stunts with players etc.
It's always like that; Every major company is basically "Evil", because they just wan't the money, we all just have to deal with that.
On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote: hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!? it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days.
And how would they do that?
They go into Battle.Net and push the "ban all Korean sc2 account until further notice".
And why would they pull of this kind of nazi-crap?.....
KeSpa is a company and company's have one goal: MONEY. Naturally, KeSpa is just afraid that Blizzard will wan't to control the whole tournament-scene etc., so they wouldn't really have a justifiable existance anymore. Like with the discussion that SC2 cannot be played over LAN, but only the B.Net (I actually don't know whether this is in fact the case or if they've changed that. '^^).
Blizzard and KeSpa both have to accept, that they need to find a solution together, because I think it would be extremely stupid by Blizzard to try to shut down a Company that has pushed SC1 to where it is right now. So many people think Korea is the eSport-mecca and those people have to accept that it was hugely because of KeSpa, even if they often pull dibious stunts with players etc.
It's always like that; Every major company is basically "Evil", because they just wan't the money, we all just have to deal with that.
I didn't say they would do it, I only demonstrated that they "could" since the person I responded too asked how Blizzard would be able to actually pull it off. Please understand the context of the post before you reply to it.
On March 03 2010 19:07 {88}iNcontroL wrote: In the end it isn't blizzard that gets hurt by Kespa's arrogance however.. it will be the proteams/kespa. Going to war with the company that CREATED/MAINTAINS and OWNS the game you base your entire existence sounds absolutely retarded.
Yes I understand the gray area involved and the "complicated" actuality of this but.. I cannot imagine kespa benefiting in the end from this "war."
in fact, it could lead to americans being better than koreans at SC2 if the availability plays a part
On March 04 2010 00:18 UdderChaos wrote: What's to stop blizzard just toally crushing KeSPA? Ignoring the right/wrong debate, which I think is useless, this is a fight that comes down to who has the biggest stick, moral or not. Blizzard has a rediculous amount of money at it's disposal, epsecaily if you count activision too, the biggest game company in the world and I think they said on thier conference call that they are the 3rd largest software company in the world in some aspect like distribution or development or something, which is just insane.
Anyways my point is that blizzard could easily crush kespa, all it needs to do is set up it's own sc2 league in korea, offer bigger prize money and salaries than KeSPA's leagues do and then either buy thier way onto OGN and MBC or just set up thier own cannels, they have the money. Just think about it now, your a B-teamer or a low grade A-teamer and your earing peanuts in your current team, and there is no competetion in sc2 becuase of KeSPA's rules to stop them playing sc2, so you set up a team or join one and get paid like 3-4times becuase not only do blizzard offer more but the competition is less. And then KeSPA are fucked, becuase they lose thier progamers and can't compete with blizzards prize money and they can't set up an sc2 league becuase of the terms of service.
Yeah I guess that Blizzard could set up they own channels, and pay much more for everything to get players, but Blizzard is probably not interested in loosing money, and working on something that they have no idea about in diferent country.
If anything they would rather work with GOM, or other channel that is interested in cooperation, but I am not sure if that would be such a good deal for GOM. Blizzard wants all the rights, and to change conditions as they like, will any company want to invest in SC2 on those terms? Maybe they will end up with signing the deal that is not one sided but we will have to wait, and see how that develops.
On March 04 2010 00:18 UdderChaos wrote: What's to stop blizzard just toally crushing KeSPA? Ignoring the right/wrong debate, which I think is useless, this is a fight that comes down to who has the biggest stick, moral or not. Blizzard has a rediculous amount of money at it's disposal, epsecaily if you count activision too, the biggest game company in the world and I think they said on thier conference call that they are the 3rd largest software company in the world in some aspect like distribution or development or something, which is just insane.
Anyways my point is that blizzard could easily crush kespa, all it needs to do is set up it's own sc2 league in korea, offer bigger prize money and salaries than KeSPA's leagues do and then either buy thier way onto OGN and MBC or just set up thier own cannels, they have the money. Just think about it now, your a B-teamer or a low grade A-teamer and your earing peanuts in your current team, and there is no competetion in sc2 becuase of KeSPA's rules to stop them playing sc2, so you set up a team or join one and get paid like 3-4times becuase not only do blizzard offer more but the competition is less. And then KeSPA are fucked, becuase they lose thier progamers and can't compete with blizzards prize money and they can't set up an sc2 league becuase of the terms of service.
I don't think it's as simple as Blizz buying their way into a new league. This issue seems to have nationalist and cultural undertones to it. Notice how the XBox fails in Japan? Or how much shock there was that Budweiser was going to be owned by a foreign company? Even if Blizz could buy their way (I have no way of knowing if they do), they couldn't force Korean spectators to like it and support it.
On March 04 2010 00:26 Integra wrote:I didn't say they would do it, I only demonstrated that they "could" since the person I responded too asked how Blizzard would be able to actually pull it off. Please understand the context of the post before you reply to it.
Cool, so how exactly would that kill SC proscene? If anything lack of competition from SC2 would make it stronger.
On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote: hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!? it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days.
And how would they do that?
Blizzard made the cow, Kespa is just taking the milk. And now they've mistaken the two and think they have a word on what the cow should do next.
A good lawyer could probably shut down the whole thing if Blizzard decided to do it.
On March 03 2010 23:58 niteReloaded wrote: hahahhaahha Kespa are fucking hillarious... LOOL how retarded can you be!? it's so pitiful to see them "stand up for themselves" lol, when Blizzard can just go "ok" and shut down the entire SC/SC2 scene within 2 days.
And how would they do that?
They go into Battle.Net and push the "ban all Korean sc2 account until further notice".
On March 04 2010 00:32 niteReloaded wrote:Blizzard made the cow, Kespa is just taking the milk. And now they've mistaken the two and think they have a word on what the cow should do next.
Ridiculous analogy, esport is not something that run on its own if you have a game. Right or wrong teams are behind KeSPA, and OGN/MBC is behind KeSPA. Ever heard of relations between retailers, and producers?
On March 04 2010 00:32 niteReloaded wrote:A good lawyer could probably shut down the whole thing if Blizzard decided to do it.
Oh really? Why there was so many cases won against EULA in USA? You think that it would be easier to enforce "made up by Blizzard laws" in Korea?
On March 04 2010 00:30 Truenappa wrote: I don't think it's as simple as Blizz buying their way into a new league. This issue seems to have nationalist and cultural undertones to it. Notice how the XBox fails in Japan? Or how much shock there was that Budweiser was going to be owned by a foreign company? Even if Blizz could buy their way (I have no way of knowing if they do), they couldn't force Korean spectators to like it and support it.
On March 04 2010 00:29 Polis wrote: Yeah I guess that Blizzard could set up they own channels, and pay much more for everything to get players, but Blizzard is probably not interested in loosing money, and working on something that they have no idea about in diferent country.
If anything they would rather work with GOM, or other channel that is interested in cooperation, but I am not sure if that would be such a good deal for GOM. Blizzard wants all the rights, and to change conditions as they like, will any company want to invest in SC2 on those terms? Maybe they will end up with signing the deal that is not one sided but we will have to wait, and see how that develops.
Yeah i agree that blizzard will want to avoid doing that and probally wouldn't because of costs ect, it's complicated though, they could see it as an investment and they could be potentailly in a bad situation if korea, about 1/3 or 1/2 of starcrafts fans dont buy the game at all or switch, so something drastic like this might be considered if KeSPA does really try and back blizzard against the wall. And although there is a cultural aspect, as stated by many people, there certainly are some koreans that are aginst KeSPA becuase of the controvisies such as the pp vs ppp thing. And i think you'll find that alot of these kids are tied to thier parents moreso than in the west, take for example jeadong and his parents infulence. And the parents want the best job/life for thier kids, so if there is more money in sc2 they may force/encourage thier kids who would normally go into sc1 to go into sc2 just becuase of the money. Basicly what I'm saying is that everyone wants more money, and despite culutral things, if blizzard can offer them enough money without breaking the bank i think the cultural loyalty side of it, if it even exists, will cave pretty fast.
The same way two heavy weights stand toe to toe and grimace into each others faces; just waiting for the other guy to flinch. What could happen next is a very good Korean drama series could spawn from all of this. I like First Shop of Coffee Prince. Besides both sides stand to benefit if their is cooperation.
On March 04 2010 00:18 UdderChaos wrote: What's to stop blizzard just toally crushing KeSPA? Ignoring the right/wrong debate, which I think is useless, this is a fight that comes down to who has the biggest stick, moral or not. Blizzard has a rediculous amount of money at it's disposal, epsecaily if you count activision too, the biggest game company in the world and I think they said on thier conference call that they are the 3rd largest software company in the world in some aspect like distribution or development or something, which is just insane.
By using other games than SC2? Wouldn't be surprised if a Korean clone would would come out. Kinda like Sudden Attack the CS copy.
On March 03 2010 19:43 T.O.P. wrote: I wonder. Do Blizzard retains all rights to games played by it's users? If I play a game, does Blizzard own my replay? If they don't how can Blizzard charge for a license when it's the players (Kespa) who are creating the content?
Your replay is just a file on your computer, there's no real ownership to it so it's not quite the same.
But if you intended to make money off of showing your replay Blizzard would be entitled to a piece of the cake since they spent 7 years + and alot of money and hard work on creating the game that you would essentially be making money off of. With that being said, seeing how Blizzard sponsored GOM and made them "certified" it really seems like they want to support E-Sport financially, not charge for it, they just want the control of what people are doing with their game, and don't want others to profit from their work.
Edit: They don't own "The match" that you played, they just own the platform you played it on, a match is just a series of specific events in time.
How come Ford/Subaru/GM/Chevrolet/etc. don't make money (control) from the cars racing in premier races across the world? Because you own that product once you buy it and you can do with it as you want since it is your property. Blizzard is not entitled to anything once you buy their product. When I buy something I expect to own it.
Because the money you're making is not simply from showing your car to an audience for example, it's from sponsored contests you win with your driving ability - progamers don't pay for winning leagues either so the "vessel" argument really doesn't quite add up.
On March 04 2010 00:18 UdderChaos wrote: What's to stop blizzard just toally crushing KeSPA? Ignoring the right/wrong debate, which I think is useless, this is a fight that comes down to who has the biggest stick, moral or not. Blizzard has a rediculous amount of money at it's disposal, epsecaily if you count activision too, the biggest game company in the world and I think they said on thier conference call that they are the 3rd largest software company in the world in some aspect like distribution or development or something, which is just insane.
By using other games than SC2? Wouldn't be surprised if a Korean clone would would come out. Kinda like Sudden Attack the CS copy.
I rather serious doubt that a Korean clone would compete all that much, Atrox sure as hell didn't compare to StarCraft.
Here's to hoping that cash cow WoW finally enables Blizzard to put together their own team and streaming station. If North America could fund their own teams, I'd probably not watch SC2 in Korea =/
Personally, im on Kespa's side on this. Kespa and Korea turnend SC:BW into what it is today. Blizzard created SC:BW 10 years ago, and it was sensational, but not 1/10 of what it is now, thanks to Kespa and the Pro Gaming community there. The problem is Blizzard knows how much money is being made in Korea thanks to their game and are /facepalming going "damn why didnt we think of this... i know in the next one well make sure nobody can do this without paying us first and foremost!" All they are doing is running the risk of making sure SC2 doesn't turn into "the next SC:BW" by stepping on the toes of the people who made SC:BW into what it is. Blizzard deserves the money from the sales of their product, but thats it. And Kespa is just giving them free advertising and blizzard should be thankful for them, because without the pro-gaming scene SC:BW would have been dead long ago and not still having the sales it has today. In my opinion Blizzard just needs to let things happen as they did in Korea with SC:BW and if they want to, start their own deal in USA or other countries where they dont already have it. Blizzard created SC:BW, BUT THEY DID NOT CREATE COMPETITIVE STARCRAFT OR THE COMMUNITY THAT EXISTS TODAY DUE TO IT. Blizzard needs to just stop being greedy and trying to cash in on OTHER people's creations/ideas. Blizzard made SC:BW and thats why they get paid when ANYONE buys their game, but they DID NOT CREATE the replays/matches/tournaments/fanbase/pro's/teams/leagues.
Kespa and Korea turnend SC:BW into what it is today
just.. no
Without KeSPA the Korean scene would be pretty much exactly the same as without it, they did not do anything revolutionary at any point. MBC/OGN/Blizzard should all be given more credit than them imo.
Kespa is just giving them free advertising and blizzard should be thankful for them
Ya I'm going to create this new tv channel and put movies on it and then when companies sue me for using their content like this I'm just going to say this free advertising bullshit, that shit does not work in business.. Christ.
On March 03 2010 18:48 Waxangel wrote: KeSPA was created together by the teams, and KeSPA is essentially the teams themselves.
Yea, I'm sure Jaedong felt that way during his free agency ordeal. KeSPA can't win, they have no real leverage, besides, Blizzard could legally fuck them up the ass.
This. I personally can't stand them aswell. <3 mangomango's post ^^
On March 04 2010 02:58 member1987 wrote: Kespa should back off, as Blizzard can sue their asses for intellectual rights and end-user license agreement breach.
Kespa has no right what so ever to license, manage and/or profit from selling SC television broadcasting rights.
On March 04 2010 02:58 member1987 wrote: Kespa should back off, as Blizzard can sue their asses for intellectual rights and end-user license agreement breach.
Kespa has no right what so ever to license, manage and/or profit from selling SC television broadcasting rights.
actually they cant, as much as they would like to. Due to laws in korea they cant.
[Darn beat me to it post above me]
anyways i think its interesting that people are siding with blizzard on the issue. its 100% because they are a US company tho and every1 sees "US > Korea" if they are from the US. IMO this is just a greedy business that is already one of if not THE most successful in the world who is JUST BEING GREEDY now.
I'm sorry, but I have no issue with Korean progaming burning into the ground for being so stupid. Essentially, if they're making the claim that KeSPA IS the collective effort of the teams because by doing so they've collectively said we want to fuck ourselves.
By the way, I consider Blizzard like a monarchy, if you have a king that king runs the show, but if its a good king there's no downside. So in this case, by Blizzard being the king, its not a bad thing. They do things well and put out great games.
On March 04 2010 02:58 member1987 wrote: Kespa should back off, as Blizzard can sue their asses for intellectual rights and end-user license agreement breach.
Kespa has no right what so ever to license, manage and/or profit from selling SC television broadcasting rights.
They already tried and failed.
What kind of fucked up laws do they have in Korea? Can I move there and start selling rights to display football on tv? That makes no god damn sense to me.
Lot of money in this issue. Blizzard wants to make it clear that blizzard will control directly the progame scene for sc2. (it was alredy clear in the past however) I am really curious to see how it will turn...
I think people are just confused. It i not like Kespa decided to create the sc bw scene in korea. It is not like Kespa could create prof. starcraft from nothing.
As far as i know, starcraft became very popular by iteself in korea. It became so popular on its own ( not kespa ) , that people started making money off it by marketing it.
Players did not get paid in general, just the very best. The rest played like a slave.
Then Boxer came and said: " i only play for you when not only me but all of my team gets paid " and thus the 1st prof.team was founded where all players got salary.
Later KESPA came and said: " You need us to make all prof. starcraft and for rules and regulations"
Everyone was like, sounds fine to me to make it all prof. and solid, but in the end did not do much, but took a lot of money.
When a lot of money was not enough anymore, KESPA sold proleague rights that they did not even own. Somehow they got away with selling somebody else´s stuff, quite the baller move ^^.
In the end, everyone who is shouting " ALL THE MIGHT TO KESPA!! " should be instead shouting " ALL THE MIGHT TO BOXER " , since not only made starcraft popular, but he also fought for the players rights.
Everything kespa did do right, wasnt kespa´s but boxer´s work.
When Boxer would be running kespa, and i mean ruling it, then everyone would be happy. I guess Blizzard + Boxer would work.
The only real issue is will SC2 be a better Esport than bw. If Koreans stop to play bw and enjoy to play SC2 more there will be a potential audience for this game and Kespa will have to find an agreement with Blizzard.
But to be fair i think that SC2 will kill war3 in Korea and bw will still remain #1st for a while.
Yeah doesn't really make sense to try to fight blizzard, what could they really hope to accomplish lol. The teams are just hurting themselves doing this shit.
On March 04 2010 02:58 member1987 wrote: Kespa should back off, as Blizzard can sue their asses for intellectual rights and end-user license agreement breach.
Kespa has no right what so ever to license, manage and/or profit from selling SC television broadcasting rights.
actually they cant, as much as they would like to. Due to laws in korea they cant.
Do you have any details about this law that allows broadcast of other companies intellectual rights? Whats stopping television stations over there from showing new movies on TV or making copies of video games and selling it to the public? I'm assuming MBC and OGN are pay to watch (cable subscription) channels, aren't they making money off someone elses property?
On March 04 2010 00:32 niteReloaded wrote:Blizzard made the cow, Kespa is just taking the milk. And now they've mistaken the two and think they have a word on what the cow should do next.
Ridiculous analogy, esport is not something that run on its own if you have a game. Right or wrong teams are behind KeSPA, and OGN/MBC is behind KeSPA. Ever heard of relations between retailers, and producers?
1. KeSPA = OGN + MBC + Teams (ex- KPGA). It's a regulator, a financier and a promoter, without it a lot of teams would've gone bankrupt, when TV ratings started tumbling it was formed to centralize an pull together what was a disorganized scene into the most powerful e-Sports scene of them all, it spread among half a dozen countries.
2. OGN and MBC bought the rights for unlimited StarCraft broadcasting from Blizzard back in 2001, reportedly for a very modest prize, Blizzard can't sue shit.
3. Kespa spread among half a dozen countries, working closely with corresponding Korean, Chinese and Japanese government offices, it's currently in talks to create a branch in the UK. A few months before starting to heavily invest in GOM, Blizzard turned to Korean Ministry of Culture (not sure about the name), they were officially sent to deal with KeSPA.
4. Blizzard didn't put much effort into supporting StarCraft. Every single patch was late, it took 3 years and 13 patches to more or less balance the game. Blizzard never supported or updated Battle.net. After canceling 2nd expantions for StarCraft and Diablo they moved on to B.net 1.5 with War3 and later to WoW. KeSPA picked up StarCraft support where Blizzard left with paid professional mapmakers, advanced broadcasting features and so on.
As for StarCraft II, there's no way Blizzard can pull it without KeSPA. They need teams and players for promotion, KeSPA to create and regulate a scene, OGN and MBC to broadcast it. More importantly, the need the game to get the quasi-religious following like StarCraft did, and I don't think it will get to this point at all, whether with KeSPA or Blizzard, whoever.
Blizzard has a lot of money to spend on developing their own progaming scene, especially a foreign one. However, the Korean progaming scene is by far the largest and well organized. Kespa will definitely lose in the long term by fighting Blizzard especially because they have no foreign pull, but they could delay and even destroy the SCII scene in Korea However they have much to gain if they work together. Blizzard and Kespa will both need to swallow their overwhelming desire for complete control (e.g. Blizzard canceling LAN and Kespa barring players from GOM and BlizzCon) the gains of a partnership would be enormous for both, imagine teams and TV already running from day 1 with sponsors all lined up, it would be fabulous. There is so much to gain it will be a real shame if both of them stay on their proverbial horses and refuse to come down so I hope both of them will read this thread and reconsider what they are doing before they both feel too insulted to stop screwing each other over
On March 04 2010 02:58 member1987 wrote: Kespa should back off, as Blizzard can sue their asses for intellectual rights and end-user license agreement breach.
Kespa has no right what so ever to license, manage and/or profit from selling SC television broadcasting rights.
actually they cant, as much as they would like to. Due to laws in korea they cant.
Do you have any details about this law that allows broadcast of other companies intellectual rights? Whats stopping television stations over there from showing new movies on TV or making copies of video games and selling it to the public? I'm assuming MBC and OGN are pay to watch (cable subscription) channels, aren't they making money off someone elses property?
You people really don't see a difference between showing games played in game x, and copying that game, and selling it? Seriously? Games makes money from selling them, MBC/OGN don't sell SC:BW, they just show it. Movies make money from showing it, and that is a complete product, game alone is not a league that you can broadcast. What about game magazines you also think that they should not have a right to publish screen-shots from the games? Damn even some pirates review the game in video format, and show it when they talk about, what stop those people from broadcasting movies?
^No, even in Korea you can't do commercial broadcasts featuring games without a license. OGN/MBC acquired one from Blizzard a long time ago. The only difference between movies/tv-shows and games, is that with movies, having a legal copy, you don't have the right for both commercial and non-commercial public broadcasts (except for educational purposes), with games you can do non-commercial broadcasts only, which is why Livestream StarCraft II feed would be completely legal.
On March 03 2010 19:43 T.O.P. wrote: I wonder. Do Blizzard retains all rights to games played by it's users? If I play a game, does Blizzard own my replay? If they don't how can Blizzard charge for a license when it's the players (Kespa) who are creating the content?
Your replay is just a file on your computer, there's no real ownership to it so it's not quite the same.
But if you intended to make money off of showing your replay Blizzard would be entitled to a piece of the cake since they spent 7 years + and alot of money and hard work on creating the game that you would essentially be making money off of. With that being said, seeing how Blizzard sponsored GOM and made them "certified" it really seems like they want to support E-Sport financially, not charge for it, they just want the control of what people are doing with their game, and don't want others to profit from their work.
Edit: They don't own "The match" that you played, they just own the platform you played it on, a match is just a series of specific events in time.
now I havent studied law myself or anything, but it really sounds like you dont actually have a clue what you are talking about. Especially the very first sentence. If I record a song and render it as an mp3 I dont own it because it's just a file on my computer? what? Or maybe it belongs to Steinberg, because they created the program that I produced my song with, hmm.
On March 04 2010 02:58 member1987 wrote: Kespa should back off, as Blizzard can sue their asses for intellectual rights and end-user license agreement breach.
Kespa has no right what so ever to license, manage and/or profit from selling SC television broadcasting rights.
They already tried and failed.
What kind of fucked up laws do they have in Korea? Can I move there and start selling rights to display football on tv? That makes no god damn sense to me.
No you have to pay all the money to the ball producer like in other countries.
On March 04 2010 02:58 member1987 wrote: Kespa should back off, as Blizzard can sue their asses for intellectual rights and end-user license agreement breach.
Kespa has no right what so ever to license, manage and/or profit from selling SC television broadcasting rights.
actually they cant, as much as they would like to. Due to laws in korea they cant.
Do you have any details about this law that allows broadcast of other companies intellectual rights? Whats stopping television stations over there from showing new movies on TV or making copies of video games and selling it to the public? I'm assuming MBC and OGN are pay to watch (cable subscription) channels, aren't they making money off someone elses property?
You people really don't see a difference between showing games played in game x, and copying that game, and selling it? Seriously? Games makes money from selling them, MBC/OGN don't sell SC:BW, they just show it. Movies make money from showing it, and that is a complete product, game alone is not a league that you can broadcast. What about game magazines you also think that they should not have a right to publish screen-shots from the games? Damn even some pirates review the game in video format, and show it when they talk about, what stop those people from broadcasting movies?
Theres no difference between broadcasting movies on tv and broadcasting video games on tv, they're both used for commercial value. Whether you're watching a videogame or playing a movie with a fake controller, theres still money being made off material that is not legally yours.
Game magazines do have to get permission to publish screen-shots from videogame companies actually.
I don't really understand what you mean by pirates, sorry :<
Thanks for clearing up the 2001 licensing agreement though, I had no idea.
According to my Korean friend, almost every single SC fan/players is supporting Kespa on this matter. This is a war that Blizzard cannot win. Perhaps they should try harder to work together with Kespa instead of trying to oust it
Then players probably have no choice on choosing sides.
You might see semi-pro teams take up Blizzard's offers because of KeSPA's arrogance. I actually don't mind seeing this because the competition will be just as fierce, but it might spoil all the time we've spent putting into watching these pro teams and players evolve to see KeSPA keep them away from SC2.
On March 04 2010 04:28 mmdmmd wrote: According to my Korean friend, almost every single SC fan/players is supporting Kespa on this matter. This is a war that Blizzard cannot win. Perhaps they should try harder to work together with Kespa instead of trying to oust it
lol you do realize that there's a lot more hatred for KESPA in Korean bbs than on TL, right?
On March 04 2010 02:58 member1987 wrote: Kespa should back off, as Blizzard can sue their asses for intellectual rights and end-user license agreement breach.
Kespa has no right what so ever to license, manage and/or profit from selling SC television broadcasting rights.
actually they cant, as much as they would like to. Due to laws in korea they cant.
Do you have any details about this law that allows broadcast of other companies intellectual rights? Whats stopping television stations over there from showing new movies on TV or making copies of video games and selling it to the public? I'm assuming MBC and OGN are pay to watch (cable subscription) channels, aren't they making money off someone elses property?
You people really don't see a difference between showing games played in game x, and copying that game, and selling it? Seriously? Games makes money from selling them, MBC/OGN don't sell SC:BW, they just show it. Movies make money from showing it, and that is a complete product, game alone is not a league that you can broadcast. What about game magazines you also think that they should not have a right to publish screen-shots from the games? Damn even some pirates review the game in video format, and show it when they talk about, what stop those people from broadcasting movies?
Theres no difference between broadcasting movies on tv and broadcasting video games on tv, they're both used for commercial value. Whether you're watching a videogame or playing a movie with a fake controller, theres still money being made off material that is not legally yours.
Game magazines do have to get permission to publish screen-shots from videogame companies actually.
Blizzard stop being greedy and have your own ideas. Damn, when we needed updates and help with SC bw stuff to make it better, Blizzard didn't give a shit about community or whatever. Korea/Kespa made sc bw what it is today and there would be no fucking hype like this about SC2, if there wasn't Korean progaming. Blizzard should just thank them and maybe help create progaming SC2 teams outside Korea and finally support the community, which they are making money of! Also give us the damn Diablo 3! Yeah it would be so funny if Korea just boycott SC 2 - i would laugh my ass away so hard.
On March 04 2010 03:41 Go0g3n wrote: 4. Blizzard didn't put much effort into supporting StarCraft. Every single patch was late, it took 3 years and 13 patches to more or less balance the game. Blizzard never supported or updated Battle.net. After canceling 2nd expantions for StarCraft and Diablo they moved on to B.net 1.5 with War3 and later to WoW. KeSPA picked up StarCraft support where Blizzard left with paid professional mapmakers, advanced broadcasting features and so on.
Why is it that everyone seems to hold Blizzard to such a ridiculously high standard? How many other developers release patches for 3 year old games? How many developers still maintain an online service for a twelve year old game? By any reasonable standards, Blizzard's support for Starcraft was exceptionally good. However, it is of course true that a large part of Starcraft's huge success is due to the Korean community, of which Kespa is a very important part.
Blizzard is the one trying to change the system that everyone already likes. i dont know how anyone can take the side of blizzard in the matter. Blizzard showed no interest in Esports and supporting them UNTIL they saw the success and $$ in it. The options as i see them: Kespa stays strong: Korea boycotts SC2 and blizzard loses millions Blizzard stays strong: We don't get to see the Pro's play SC2 and we risk SC2 esports never taking off and becoming successful. Blizzard more than likely will lose $$ attempting to copy Kespa's model. Kespa gives in: Blizzard takes over, Kespa falls out of existance, we PRAY that blizzard can get it right. or else well see a Kespa 2.0 in a couple years after Blizzard lets it die. Blizzard gives in: Blizzard still makes money on sales, still gets their game's popularity sky-rocketed thanks to e-sports, Loses $$ from not controlling and manipulating e-sports. I guess we'll still have SC:BW =).
On March 04 2010 03:41 Go0g3n wrote: 4. Blizzard didn't put much effort into supporting StarCraft. Every single patch was late, it took 3 years and 13 patches to more or less balance the game. Blizzard never supported or updated Battle.net. After canceling 2nd expantions for StarCraft and Diablo they moved on to B.net 1.5 with War3 and later to WoW. KeSPA picked up StarCraft support where Blizzard left with paid professional mapmakers, advanced broadcasting features and so on.
Why is it that everyone seems to hold Blizzard to such a ridiculously high standard? How many other developers release patches for 3 year old games? How many developers still maintain an online service for a twelve year old game? By any reasonable standards, Blizzard's support for Starcraft was exceptionally good. However, it is of course true that a large part of Starcraft's huge success is due to the Korean community, of which Kespa is a very important part.
This is no valuable argument, are you still connecting bnet? It's been years that blizzard didn't do anything in order to improve online gaming on bw. Keeping server ON is not really a huge cost for them regarding the money they're making. All great progress has been made by the community. It's been ages that Blizzard left bw. They even couldn't afford descent patch without terrible bug. (1.16.0??) I don't have that much respect for Blizzard, all they are doing is economic warfare.
What about the possibility that blizzard takes over, brings in KeSpa as a supporting role in running the tournaments and ushers in a new generation of E-sports to the rest of the world?
They've pulled off crazier things.
Also, how does Korea boycott SC2 exactly? Ban the game from entering the markets? Won't the populous just have it shipped in from somewhere else? We are talking about sales right?
Edit - Theyre Activision-Blizzard now, I'm sure they have the financial backing to buy KeSPa if theres a significant amount of profit that can be made from it. Its a business, they'll do what whatever it takes to turn a profit and Blizzards track record has been flawless so far.
A decent compromise is needed. Blizzard aren't in it only for StarCraft II, but also Diablo III, WoW expansions and their unannounced MMORPG, as well as two more StarCraft II expansions and all the 'monetary' services their united Battle.net 2.0 platform will be developing and offering.
They may even need to forget about most of the royalties and such, just to make sure that their logo presents at every single event or broadcast or related merchandise. KeSPA and future success in Korea will also be Blizzard's ticket to China - the most promising and fastest growing market right now, but they're on the rocks there as well.
On March 03 2010 23:09 Kyo Yuy wrote: I don't know if Blizzard is in it for the money or not.
I am sure 99.999% of the ppl in this forum know the answer to this question
it takes blizzard 12 years to get sc2 in beta. they never really cared about starcraft except for the money it could make them and the only way for them to make that money was to create SC2 and get Korea to pay them.
On March 04 2010 04:41 paulinepain wrote: Isn't that the government that threaten blizzard to not sell sc2 in korea if ever they didn't acknowledge KesPa?
I believe i read something about their government threatening to put a min.18 year old rating on it. Corruption at its finest.
On March 03 2010 23:09 Kyo Yuy wrote: I don't know if Blizzard is in it for the money or not.
I am sure 99.999% of the ppl in this forum know the answer to this question
it takes blizzard 12 years to get sc2 in beta. they never really cared about starcraft except for the money it could make them and the only way for them to make that money was to create SC2 and get Korea to pay them.
i thinking taking out lan play is a very good example that blizz wants absolute control over sc2 e-sport. You MUST get consent from Blizz before holding tournaments on bnet. And the rules are made by Blizzard and they can change it anytime.
On March 04 2010 03:41 Go0g3n wrote: 4. Blizzard didn't put much effort into supporting StarCraft. Every single patch was late, it took 3 years and 13 patches to more or less balance the game. Blizzard never supported or updated Battle.net. After canceling 2nd expantions for StarCraft and Diablo they moved on to B.net 1.5 with War3 and later to WoW. KeSPA picked up StarCraft support where Blizzard left with paid professional mapmakers, advanced broadcasting features and so on.
Why is it that everyone seems to hold Blizzard to such a ridiculously high standard? How many other developers release patches for 3 year old games? How many developers still maintain an online service for a twelve year old game? By any reasonable standards, Blizzard's support for Starcraft was exceptionally good. However, it is of course true that a large part of Starcraft's huge success is due to the Korean community, of which Kespa is a very important part.
This is no valuable argument, are you still connecting bnet?
What has that got to do with anything? No, I don't play on bnet, but a considerable number of people still do.
It's been years that blizzard didn't do anything in order to improve online gaming on bw. Keeping server ON is not really a huge cost for them regarding the money they're making.
Again, the game is 12 years old. Most companies support their games for a few months after release. Also, Blizzard isn't exactly raking in the big cash with starcraft. Sure, Starcraft has sold more copies than any other RTS game, but after twelve years pretty much everyone who is interested in Starcraft either already has bought a copy or is using a pirated version. They still sell a few copies nowadays, but the vast majority of the profits (like with every game) was made in the early days of Starcraft and Broodwar when the game was still sold for full price.
All great progress has been made by the community. It's been ages that Blizzard left bw. They even couldn't afford descent patch without terrible bug. (1.16.0??) I don't have that much respect for Blizzard, all they are doing is economic warfare.
Well, it seems you expect Blizzard to be a charitable organisation. They've already done more than pretty much any other game company would have done. They're even still hosting Starcraft tournaments (e.g. Blizzcon). Blizzard really has very little to gain from promoting Stacraft 1.
On March 04 2010 04:51 nMn wrote: What about the possibility that blizzard takes over, brings in KeSpa as a supporting role in running the tournaments and ushers in a new generation of E-sports to the rest of the world?
They've pulled off crazier things.
Also, how does Korea boycott SC2 exactly? Ban the game from entering the markets? Won't the populous just have it shipped in from somewhere else? We are talking about sales right?
Edit - Theyre Activision-Blizzard now, I'm sure they have the financial backing to buy KeSPa if theres a significant amount of profit that can be made from it. Its a business, they'll do what whatever it takes to turn a profit and Blizzards track record has been flawless so far.
Korea can BOYCOTT SC2 by not supporting any progaming in it. Yes people can buy and play it, but that is not the business that Korea can make out of it, if it takes the same way as SC 1. Also the Korean SCBW authorities could probably convince many korean gamers to not play competitive SC2 at all. (by not holding any tournaments and stuff) We will see what happens, I don't really like SC2 right now, but i haven't played it yet, so i will just wait for the actual release and see what happens...
I don't care if it's kespa, blizzard, or another 3rd party company that does it, I just want to see an extremely successful esports scene for SC2. Though preferably with a lack of stupid regulations and broadcasting strangleholds...
Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table..
On March 04 2010 05:51 iounas wrote: Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table..
This is not the same at all. Blizzard has not only created the game, (the pool table in your argument) but they created the means to play competitively with bnet.
On March 04 2010 05:51 iounas wrote: Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table..
This is not the same at all. Blizzard has not only created the game, (the pool table in your argument) but they created the means to play competitively with bnet.
Its a product like any other with a set price that you can use how you want.
Does SC2 need the SC1 progamers to be entertaining to watch? If they are too slow to switch, new stars will take their place. If SC2 is as entertaining as SC1 to watchm then people will most likely change simply because it's the newer option with better graphics. Sponsors will go where the viewers are.
If kespa chooses to not be a part of sc2 when its released, sucks for them. There already tons of organizations drooling at the idea of putting on sc2 tournaments. Either kespa ggives up now and agrees to Blizzard's terms, or they do later. Once SC2 is as hugely popular as it is bound to be (hell, even if they somehow ruin the game, there is so much backing that it'll do well), kespa will agree and jump on board. Its obvious kespa is just bluffing. I'm sure blizzard knows this too.
Kespa needs to get used to the idea that they won't be nearly as important in sc2 as they are in sc1.
On March 04 2010 05:51 iounas wrote: Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table..
This is not the same at all. Blizzard has not only created the game, (the pool table in your argument) but they created the means to play competitively with bnet.
Its a product like any other with a set price that you can use how you want.
No, no it's not.
Imagine the pool table again, but then imagine that Blizzard not only created the table, but they created the game of billiards itself, including all of the equipment used to play it and the cameras filming the matches. In fact, they even wanted their new game of "billiards" to succeed, so they sponsored tournament after tournament and kept producing their tables and sponsoring tournaments LONG after the competition. You know how the NFL says that it's games are copyrighted works that are not allowed to be shown without permission? It's the same thing here. Blizzard OWNS those games and the depictions of them. Legally, Kespa is completely out of line here. They are entirely founded on the principle of using someone elses copyrighted work to generate a profit, and if they actually think they can stand up to Blizzard and win, they're fucking idiots. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
The fact is, Blizzard is ultimately a profit-seeking entity. They are fundamentally only responsible to their shareholders, but luckily they perform this duty in a rather roundabout way. Instead of simply milking fans for all they're worth, they actually attempt to listen to them and foster a community that grows. They create a loyal fan base by supporting their games many many years after most companies have shut down servers and forgotten about it. They pay attention to exquisite details in the balance of their games in order to make them competitive and allow that community to grow with a purpose. They did this with starcraft and look where it took them. It's not as profitable today as it was when it first came out, but look at all the buzz for SC2 that is occurring already because of the heavy interest in the original? They have kept servers up and continued patches far past the point that I think was required, and then some. Blizzard does this to make money in the long run, but I like to think that in the end, they do it somewhat because they love their fans and, just like us, like to play games.
Blizzard has not been making a sizable amount of money off of Starcraft: BW for the past 7-8 years, and personally I think you can go fuck yourself if you still think you are owed anything by them. They are nothing but great to the community, and like I said, b.net lives to this day while other similar services have fallen by the wayside. They have continued balance patches with no great benefit to themselves all this time. They are the example of a game company that actually cares about it's games and it's fans, and I think this is only growing more apparent as the Beta moves forward.
On March 04 2010 05:51 iounas wrote: Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table..
This is not the same at all. Blizzard has not only created the game, (the pool table in your argument) but they created the means to play competitively with bnet.
Its a product like any other with a set price that you can use how you want.
No, no it's not.
Imagine the pool table again, but then imagine that Blizzard not only created the table, but they created the game of billiards itself, including all of the equipment used to play it and the cameras filming the matches. In fact, they even wanted their new game of "billiards" to succeed, so they sponsored tournament after tournament and kept producing their tables and sponsoring tournaments LONG after the competition. You know how the NFL says that it's games are copyrighted works that are not allowed to be shown without permission? It's the same thing here. Blizzard OWNS those games and the depictions of them. Legally, Kespa is completely out of line here. They are entirely founded on the principle of using someone elses copyrighted work to generate a profit, and if they actually think they can stand up to Blizzard and win, they're fucking idiots. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
The fact is, Blizzard is ultimately a profit-seeking entity. They are fundamentally only responsible to their shareholders, but luckily they perform this duty in a rather roundabout way. Instead of simply milking fans for all they're worth, they actually attempt to listen to them and foster a community that grows. They create a loyal fan base by supporting their games many many years after most companies have shut down servers and forgotten about it. They pay attention to exquisite details in the balance of their games in order to make them competitive and allow that community to grow with a purpose. They did this with starcraft and look where it took them. It's not as profitable today as it was when it first came out, but look at all the buzz for SC2 that is occurring already because of the heavy interest in the original? They have kept servers up and continued patches far past the point that I think was required, and then some. Blizzard does this to make money in the long run, but I like to think that in the end, they do it somewhat because they love their fans and, just like us, like to play games.
Blizzard has not been making a sizable amount of money off of Starcraft: BW for the past 7-8 years, and personally I think you can go fuck yourself if you still think you are owed anything by them. They are nothing but great to the community, and like I said, b.net lives to this day while other similar services have fallen by the wayside. They have continued balance patches with no great benefit to themselves all this time. They are the example of a game company that actually cares about it's games and it's fans, and I think this is only growing more apparent as the Beta moves forward.
Thanks Blizzard, fuck the haters.
Actually, NFL is comparable to KeSPA, not Blizzard, so that analogy doesn't work. Nor does actually the one about pool. It is not clear which one would win a legal battle.
On March 04 2010 05:51 iounas wrote: Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table..
This is not the same at all. Blizzard has not only created the game, (the pool table in your argument) but they created the means to play competitively with bnet.
Its a product like any other with a set price that you can use how you want.
No, no it's not.
Imagine the pool table again, but then imagine that Blizzard not only created the table, but they created the game of billiards itself, including all of the equipment used to play it and the cameras filming the matches. In fact, they even wanted their new game of "billiards" to succeed, so they sponsored tournament after tournament and kept producing their tables and sponsoring tournaments LONG after the competition. You know how the NFL says that it's games are copyrighted works that are not allowed to be shown without permission? It's the same thing here. Blizzard OWNS those games and the depictions of them. Legally, Kespa is completely out of line here. They are entirely founded on the principle of using someone elses copyrighted work to generate a profit, and if they actually think they can stand up to Blizzard and win, they're fucking idiots. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
The fact is, Blizzard is ultimately a profit-seeking entity. They are fundamentally only responsible to their shareholders, but luckily they perform this duty in a rather roundabout way. Instead of simply milking fans for all they're worth, they actually attempt to listen to them and foster a community that grows. They create a loyal fan base by supporting their games many many years after most companies have shut down servers and forgotten about it. They pay attention to exquisite details in the balance of their games in order to make them competitive and allow that community to grow with a purpose. They did this with starcraft and look where it took them. It's not as profitable today as it was when it first came out, but look at all the buzz for SC2 that is occurring already because of the heavy interest in the original? They have kept servers up and continued patches far past the point that I think was required, and then some. Blizzard does this to make money in the long run, but I like to think that in the end, they do it somewhat because they love their fans and, just like us, like to play games.
Blizzard has not been making a sizable amount of money off of Starcraft: BW for the past 7-8 years, and personally I think you can go fuck yourself if you still think you are owed anything by them. They are nothing but great to the community, and like I said, b.net lives to this day while other similar services have fallen by the wayside. They have continued balance patches with no great benefit to themselves all this time. They are the example of a game company that actually cares about it's games and it's fans, and I think this is only growing more apparent as the Beta moves forward.
Thanks Blizzard, fuck the haters.
Actually, NFL is comparable to KeSPA, not Blizzard, so that analogy doesn't work. Nor does actually the one about pool. It is not clear which one would win a legal battle.
When considering BROADCASTING RIGHTS it does work. You can't broadcast the NFL unless you have a deal with the organization. I think a lot of it has to do with Korea's legal system regarding IP Rights.
On March 04 2010 07:01 sith wrote: [ and the cameras filming the matches. In fact, they even wanted their new game of "billiards" to succeed, so they sponsored tournament after tournament and kept producing their tables and sponsoring tournaments LONG after the competition.
Blizzard was running leagues in Korea? Since when? They weren't filming the matches, they were not organizing the tournaments.
On March 04 2010 07:01 sith wrote: You know how the NFL says that it's games are copyrighted works that are not allowed to be shown without permission? It's the same thing here.
NFL had created Football ? They had made equipment for it? No they did with Football exactly what Koreans did with SC:BW. Analogy fail.
On March 04 2010 07:01 sith wrote: Blizzard has not been making a sizable amount of money off of Starcraft: BW for the past 7-8 years, and personally I think you can go fuck yourself if you still think you are owed anything by them. They are nothing but great to the community, and like I said, b.net lives to this day while other similar services have fallen by the wayside.
They had definitely made much more then they had spend on patches or battlenet.
On March 04 2010 05:51 iounas wrote: Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table..
This is not the same at all. Blizzard has not only created the game, (the pool table in your argument) but they created the means to play competitively with bnet.
Its a product like any other with a set price that you can use how you want.
No, no it's not.
Imagine the pool table again, but then imagine that Blizzard not only created the table, but they created the game of billiards itself, including all of the equipment used to play it and the cameras filming the matches. In fact, they even wanted their new game of "billiards" to succeed, so they sponsored tournament after tournament and kept producing their tables and sponsoring tournaments LONG after the competition. You know how the NFL says that it's games are copyrighted works that are not allowed to be shown without permission? It's the same thing here. Blizzard OWNS those games and the depictions of them. Legally, Kespa is completely out of line here. They are entirely founded on the principle of using someone elses copyrighted work to generate a profit, and if they actually think they can stand up to Blizzard and win, they're fucking idiots. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
The fact is, Blizzard is ultimately a profit-seeking entity. They are fundamentally only responsible to their shareholders, but luckily they perform this duty in a rather roundabout way. Instead of simply milking fans for all they're worth, they actually attempt to listen to them and foster a community that grows. They create a loyal fan base by supporting their games many many years after most companies have shut down servers and forgotten about it. They pay attention to exquisite details in the balance of their games in order to make them competitive and allow that community to grow with a purpose. They did this with starcraft and look where it took them. It's not as profitable today as it was when it first came out, but look at all the buzz for SC2 that is occurring already because of the heavy interest in the original? They have kept servers up and continued patches far past the point that I think was required, and then some. Blizzard does this to make money in the long run, but I like to think that in the end, they do it somewhat because they love their fans and, just like us, like to play games.
Blizzard has not been making a sizable amount of money off of Starcraft: BW for the past 7-8 years, and personally I think you can go fuck yourself if you still think you are owed anything by them. They are nothing but great to the community, and like I said, b.net lives to this day while other similar services have fallen by the wayside. They have continued balance patches with no great benefit to themselves all this time. They are the example of a game company that actually cares about it's games and it's fans, and I think this is only growing more apparent as the Beta moves forward.
Thanks Blizzard, fuck the haters.
Actually, NFL is comparable to KeSPA, not Blizzard, so that analogy doesn't work. Nor does actually the one about pool. It is not clear which one would win a legal battle.
The difference between the NFL and KeSPA is that NFL is owns the entire surrounding infrastructure as related to reproducing the games they play, but nobody owns the game itself. They play football, which is not copyrighted. Their legal rights come from the fact that they create and manage these games and teams. KeSPA plays Starcraft, which is copyrighted. While similar to the NFL in that they both manage teams and organize games, they do not actually own the rights to the game they play. In fact the way they broadcast the games using the "replay" technology is provided specifically by Blizzard and any telecasts of the games are basically a derivative work (IE under copyright by Blizzard). Blizzard could shut them the hell down if they really wanted to, while there is nobody that could "shut down" the NFL for playing footbal.
edit: @ Polis
Yes my analogy is not perfect, and I can see you are quite adept at pointing out the flaws in it. Most of what you said is explained by the previous paragraph though.
On March 04 2010 07:01 sith wrote: Blizzard has not been making a sizable amount of money off of Starcraft: BW for the past 7-8 years, and personally I think you can go fuck yourself if you still think you are owed anything by them. They are nothing but great to the community, and like I said, b.net lives to this day while other similar services have fallen by the wayside.
They had definitely made much more then they had spend on patches or battlenet.
So? The fact that they profited off the game does not enable you or anyone else to somehow claim they are "owed" this money back. Fact is, they maintain battlenet at a net loss to themselves these days.
On March 04 2010 07:11 sith wrote: So? The fact that they profited off the game does not enable you or anyone else to somehow claim they are "owed" this money back.
They had sell more copies by releasing patches, and keeping bn active.
On March 04 2010 07:11 sith wrote:Fact is, they maintain battlenet at a net loss to themselves these days.
That is a fact? It is almost certain that they are making much more money selling SC then it cost to keep BN. Such servers are very cheap to run.
On March 04 2010 07:11 sith wrote: The difference between the NFL and KeSPA is that NFL is owns the entire surrounding infrastructure as related to reproducing the games they play, but nobody owns the game itself. They play football, which is not copyrighted. Their legal rights come from the fact that they create and manage these games and teams. KeSPA plays Starcraft, which is copyrighted. While similar to the NFL in that they both manage teams and organize games, they do not actually own the rights to the game they play. In fact the way they broadcast the games using the "replay" technology is provided specifically by Blizzard and any telecasts of the games are basically a derivative work (IE under copyright by Blizzard). Blizzard could shut them the hell down if they really wanted to, while there is nobody that could "shut down" the NFL for playing footbal.
They also use actual cameras to broadcast, so they should pay sony or whoever else that had made them right? Or just buy said cameras like they did with SC:BW? Just becouse you own software it does not mean that own everything that was made using this software, and EULA=/=law, not in Korea, and not in USA, only things that don't contradict law of the country can have a legal power.
if KeSPA keeps being pushy then it's only going to get much worse for them. SC2 sales in korea will most likely crush any sort of kespa resistance come release day.
^There won't be any significant sales if SC2 get 18+ Adult ratings as it has in China, preliminary. Plus, with with 18+A it also couldn't be broadcast on day/prime time television.
On March 04 2010 07:24 Terranist wrote: if KeSPA keeps being pushy then it's only going to get much worse for them. SC2 sales in korea will most likely crush any sort of kespa resistance come release day.
How do you know? What they will have if they would have to pay Blizzard? If SC2 will be successful then Blizzard will suck money from them, if it will not be successful then they will pay the costs. Some of you seem to think that such an offer is a hot cakes for some reason.
Starcraft II will sell in Korea, I don't think anyone can argue that. Blizzard will be putting money into making Starcraft II an E-Sport, thats information is backed by Blizzard as well.
Now they want KeSPa to help promote this new game and open up South Korea's market, its not about getting money from SC1 anymore, they can't if that license deal in 2001 is true... they're trying to make this new game successful.
Now, for whatever reason, if KeSPa doesn't want to participate, fine. They're going to keep putting in financial backing for these tournaments, if SC2 is good enough to be an E-Sport, someone will pick it up because someone will make money off of it. There are investors everywhere looking for the next big thing. They will see KeSPa/MBC/OGN turning a profit in the past and they'll want a piece of that. KeSPa does not own E-Sports, they might own the name, the brand and have a loyal following but this can all change. Yes, Blizzard will probably have a harder time starting up SC2 in Korea but theres no argument that if SC2's gameplay can succeed, it will succeed with or without KeSPa.
So what if the old SC1 progamers aren't allowed to switch? A new breed of programers could pop up and some may even convert. All contracts expire. Again, if KeSPa doesn't want to participate, blizzard will have a harder time getting SC2 to start up but if the game is capable then its only a matter of time.
You can't compare real sports with e-sports, why? because if you want to play a real sport you don't have to buy it, you buy what you play with as a computer to SC if you want some sort of similarity.
As video games have copyrights you may own it but you can't profit from it without a license to do that and KeSPA can't do anything about it, and they know it, that's what this power struggle is all about, they want to hold the progamers so SC2 fails to grab the sponsors attention.
Now what Blizzard can do is just to ignore KeSPA, start from ground zero and build a new progaming scene for SC2 that fits Blizzard's ideal, they might want to get some money out of the e-sports but the cut is quite low compared to SC2 sales and WoW accounts so I believe that money isn't the real issue.
On March 04 2010 07:24 Terranist wrote: if KeSPA keeps being pushy then it's only going to get much worse for them. SC2 sales in korea will most likely crush any sort of kespa resistance come release day.
How do you know? What they will have if they would have to pay Blizzard? If SC2 will be successful then Blizzard will suck money from them, if it will not be successful then they will pay the costs. Some of you seem to think that such an offer is a hot cakes for some reason.
nobody can honestly know how exactly SC2 will turn out in korea, but it is safe to say there isn't enough motivation for the progamers to continue playing a game that will quickly be losing support. PC bangs will be filled with kids playing SC2 and if kespa doesn't want to cooperate then they will die a slow death by their own ignorance.
On March 04 2010 07:24 Terranist wrote: if KeSPA keeps being pushy then it's only going to get much worse for them. SC2 sales in korea will most likely crush any sort of kespa resistance come release day.
How do you know? What they will have if they would have to pay Blizzard? If SC2 will be successful then Blizzard will suck money from them, if it will not be successful then they will pay the costs. Some of you seem to think that such an offer is a hot cakes for some reason.
nobody can honestly know how exactly SC2 will turn out in korea, but it is safe to say there isn't enough motivation for the progamers to continue playing a game that will quickly be losing support. PC bangs will be filled with kids playing SC2 and if kespa doesn't want to cooperate then they will die a slow death by their own ignorance.
Yes but the problem is on what terms, now the terms are Blizzard will do what it will like to do with SC2 later on, so now work for popularity of SC2. Why would KeSPA/OGN/MBC work on those terms? Invest money into something that they would have no rights for?
In America, it's illegal to purchase a copyrighted film and to then sell seats to viewing without permission of the film publisher. The product is the viewable artwork itself. In the same way, you could argue that Starcraft isn't an idea or a concept, but a piece of artwork that renders unique animates because of the work the development team put into it. The actions of the players are negligible compared to the work of the developers.
However, I think it's entirely up for debate just how much of e-sports is the skill of the players and how much is the game animations themselves.
For example, if you want to sell seats to a basketball game, you do not need to pay royalties to the basketball manufacturer, nor can anyone patent the "idea" of basketball and charge people whenever they throw a ball into a hoop. But while there may be ideas of e-sports players competing in strategy apart from the software, there is no "idea of Starcraft" that can be performed without the product itself. There is no substitute for the genuine product.
So Blizzard is totally within their rights, but it is very easy to see where the Koreans are coming from (short of just trying to save money). It comes down to the skill and dedication of the players to transform Starcraft into an idea of e-sports that transcends the work of the developers, and Korea has shown more dedication than anyone else.
On March 04 2010 07:11 sith wrote: The difference between the NFL and KeSPA is that NFL is owns the entire surrounding infrastructure as related to reproducing the games they play, but nobody owns the game itself. They play football, which is not copyrighted. Their legal rights come from the fact that they create and manage these games and teams. KeSPA plays Starcraft, which is copyrighted. While similar to the NFL in that they both manage teams and organize games, they do not actually own the rights to the game they play. In fact the way they broadcast the games using the "replay" technology is provided specifically by Blizzard and any telecasts of the games are basically a derivative work (IE under copyright by Blizzard). Blizzard could shut them the hell down if they really wanted to, while there is nobody that could "shut down" the NFL for playing footbal.
They also use actual cameras to broadcast, so they should pay sony or whoever else that had made them right? Or just buy said cameras like they did with SC:BW? Just becouse you own software it does not mean that own everything that was made using this software, and EULA=/=law, not in Korea, and not in USA, only things that don't contradict law of the country can have a legal power.
Yes, they do pay the people who make the cameras, but only to actually buy them not to use them every time. You pay the NFL to watch it's games too, the only difference is that since the broadcast is infinitely reproducible the NFL wants money constantly, not only for the first viewing by a single individual. This analogy is better done with music or a television show, something that is replayed constantly. This is what copyright law is all about. Copyright law exists everywhere, though nobody has it as strict as the DMCA does here in the US.
Anyway, you are correct in saying that "Just becouse you own software it does not mean that own everything that was made using this software", but the thing is they are not painting a work of art with the game. They are playing it, then videotaping it and commenting on it and sending it out to untold masses. I'm not sure how Korean IP works, but I'm sure Blizzard could find some way to shut them down with this fact if they really wanted to.
On March 04 2010 05:51 iounas wrote: Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table..
This is not the same at all. Blizzard has not only created the game, (the pool table in your argument) but they created the means to play competitively with bnet.
Its a product like any other with a set price that you can use how you want.
You should read your ToUs and EULAs more carefully next time you buy software.
Just because it makes sense for it to work like that doesn't mean that it does.
On March 04 2010 07:46 RiGun wrote: Now what Blizzard can do is just to ignore KeSPA, start from ground zero and build a new progaming scene for SC2 that fits Blizzard's ideal, they might want to get some money out of the e-sports but the cut is quite low compared to SC2 sales and WoW accounts so I believe that money isn't the real issue.
You really think that Blizzard is going to put money into building teams and infrastructure from scratch when they've never done that before? The whole reason for Blizzard's face-off with Kespa is because they clearly don't want to do that -- if they were willing to invest money to create a new scene they could ignore Kespa.
You all Blizzard lovers need to understand that SC2 is not the content here. Its just the software used to make the content. The content are the games being played. Blizzard has no rights to the games being played. Its like saying Autodesk or Adobe have intellectual right for the movies being made with their software. People are not coming to the matches to watch the game itself, they can do that at home. They come to watch the games, the players, the show. Blizzard has no intellectual rights for that.
On March 04 2010 08:54 nimoraca wrote: You all Blizzard lovers need to understand that SC2 is not the content here. Its just the software used to make the content. The content are the games being played. Blizzard has no rights to the games being played. Its like saying Autodesk or Adobe have intellectual right for the movies being made with their software. People are not coming to the matches to watch the game itself, they can do that at home. They come to watch the games, the players, the show. Blizzard has no intellectual rights for that.
I kind of agree here. It's like saying anything I make in microsoft word, Microsoft has a claim to. That's just rubbish. Microsoft already collected their dues when we bought MS Office from them, just like Blizzard already collected their dues when we bought SC2 from them.
On March 03 2010 19:38 Puosu wrote: I think media/us don't know the exact details on this whole case, there's no way KeSPA would be stupid enough to keep fighting Blizzard like this when Morhaime could just snap his fingers and order KeSPA to be shut down in a matter of days.
And a lot of things have happened since wc3 was released, sc2 has a far bigger chance of putting bw progaming to a peaceful sleep.
And how would he do that, exactly?
not like blizzard owns the rights to starcraft or anything
On March 03 2010 22:42 d_so wrote: all you kids commenting about how "wrong" kespa is don't realize that they have the only e-sports model proven to be financially sustainable over the long term. Blizzard would do good to partner with them instead of trying to replace them, not just in korea but internationally as well. why?
1.) Kespa has been proven to be an effective marketer of videogames to the noncompetitive, casual gamer, as well as the nongamer... and most significantly, women. As any sports marketing director knows, the way to maintain a long-term fanbase is to satisfy the hardcore fans while attracting the casual fan, especially females. It's specifically the reason why EVERY olympics, superbowl, nba championship whatever has some sort of heart-felt story about a person/player recovering/overcoming/fighting through some sort of physical/traumatic/death-in-the-family experience. And it's the same reason why Progaming Television techniques attach as much significance to the personality of a player -- as well as his sex appeal -- as their talent.
On the other hand, notice how Blizzard is emphasizing online tournaments and forcing everyone to go through Bnet, eliminating the face attached to the game that makes the the Korean Starcraft Scene so personable. Would you have team loyalties, player loyalties, fan clubs, merchandise, or effeminate pictures if Bisu's face wasn't broadcast with his game? Course not! And yet Blizzard, in their quest for a WoW-like continuous revenue source, is going to create a system that not only forces royalties but counter-productively dehumanizes the game and alienates potential fans.
Some of you people might bring up WoW as an example of Blizzard's ability to attract non-hardcore gamers. Trust me, MMORPGs are completely different from competitive gaming. You can get fat ugly divorcees playing such games (a la secondlife) but that is not relevant to their interest in competitive gaming.
2.) Kespa has the best E-sports revenue model. This is almost undeniable. KeSPA's revenue model is so well-run that it doesn't have to charge for seating at its games. How fucking ridiculous is that. Imagine a sport like Football or basketball or whatever being able to create enough revenue from advertising to outweigh the expenses of paying players, maintaining a stadium, front office overhead, etc. This is just so freaking mindblowing that i'm surprised it doesn't get more notice. And the reason why they're able to do this is cuz of their partnerships with OGN and MBCGame, two DEDICATED tv networks backed by huge corporations (OnMedia and MBC).
You could argue they got lucky to have TV channels willing to take the risk and broadcast pro-gaming. but how the hell were they able to convince them in the first place? How were they able to show that Starcraft carries with it a tangible, outstanding interest that can be translated into advertising revenue? Once again, it goes back to marketing. Every epic new game that comes out is able to create spikes in interest for a short period of time. But you can't sustain it over the long term without attracting the casual gamer and the nongamer.
You know what else helps maintain their revenue model? They don't have to worry about any "morality" strikes from upset parents with old-traditional values. Why is that? It's cuz..
3.) KeSPA is effectively a government lobbyist. Tell me something. Do you ever fathom there will be a videogaming lobby in the US? Course not! They can't create a significant enough constituency with the current gaming crowd in america, which is becoming a bit more diverse in attracting female gamers but does not have enough "normal" people.
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Now let's talk about Blizzard. First, they make great games. Second, mostly due to WoW, blizzard no longer is interested in the "potential revenue" that comes with popularity --> interest --> advertising dollars. This is cuz they built a realizable, continuous revenue machine with WoW... and now they want a similar system with SC2. There's no other way to explain why they're making THREE games when the only thing that'll be different is storylines or why they're excluding LAN and forcing everyone to get approval from them in broadcasting their games. In other words, they're NOT creating an "esports division" because they think can do better (they can't.) but because they want to make money.
This post is already tl;dr but i want to add one last point. Korea is known to be a marketing hell where only the fittest survive. Winning the approval of Korean customers is like the Gold seal of approval for every fashion brand interested in gaining an Asian fanbase. Look up Prada in Korea for one example of a brand that invested a gang of money and created all sorts of diverse marketing strategies to win the korean customers, especially since how Korea rolls, a LOT of asia follows with them. Blizzard would be smart to realize two things: 1.) ESPORTS in america will never come to fruition because there's no way to create the demand necessary for advertising revenue, and 2.) if blizzard wants to be a huge part of the Asian Esports scene, they should partner with Kespa and proliferate their revenue model + marketing strategy across the continent.
KeSPA did not invent nor do they maintain the business model created by OGN and MBC. They also have nothing to do with OGN or MBC's marketing. This is like saying the NHLPA is responsible for the commercial success of the NHL -_-
On March 04 2010 08:54 nimoraca wrote: You all Blizzard lovers need to understand that SC2 is not the content here. Its just the software used to make the content. The content are the games being played. Blizzard has no rights to the games being played. Its like saying Autodesk or Adobe have intellectual right for the movies being made with their software. People are not coming to the matches to watch the game itself, they can do that at home. They come to watch the games, the players, the show. Blizzard has no intellectual rights for that.
I have no idea how you read the EULA and came up with that interpretation.
EULA: You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Program to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Program to others without the prior written consent of Blizzard. (ii) exploit the Program or any of its parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site. Blizzard may offer a separate Site License Agreement to permit you to make the Program available for commercial use; contact Blizzard for details;
blizzard and kespa dont get together. KeSPA forbids all the members in sc1 progame-teams to take part in sc2 tournaments and no kespa owned broadcast station is allowed to show matches of sc2.
now Blizzard makes a deal with gomtv and only gives them the lizence to hold tournaments in korea.
now think 2 years in the future - do you think all the fans will keep watching sc1, that is played to death, or check out sc2 to see fresh stuff and stick with it? will all the sc1 players stay in their teams or will some switch to sc2 to own the wc3 players and make loads of money?
i know kespa is very powerful in korea, but things can change very fast ...
On March 04 2010 07:46 RiGun wrote: Now what Blizzard can do is just to ignore KeSPA, start from ground zero and build a new progaming scene for SC2 that fits Blizzard's ideal, they might want to get some money out of the e-sports but the cut is quite low compared to SC2 sales and WoW accounts so I believe that money isn't the real issue.
You really think that Blizzard is going to put money into building teams and infrastructure from scratch when they've never done that before? The whole reason for Blizzard's face-off with Kespa is because they clearly don't want to do that -- if they were willing to invest money to create a new scene they could ignore Kespa.
Why would Blizzard sponsor teams? that makes no sense at all, what they should do is to sponsor big tournaments with big prizes, if teams get to be sponsored by some other companies that's another story.
It would be the same if you asked the F1 managers to make teams, put money in a racing team, that's non sense there, money comes from sponsors not from KeSPa.
On March 04 2010 08:54 nimoraca wrote: You all Blizzard lovers need to understand that SC2 is not the content here. Its just the software used to make the content. The content are the games being played. Blizzard has no rights to the games being played. Its like saying Autodesk or Adobe have intellectual right for the movies being made with their software. People are not coming to the matches to watch the game itself, they can do that at home. They come to watch the games, the players, the show. Blizzard has no intellectual rights for that.
That's not correct, when you use one of Adobe's editing programs you end with a file, that file can be seen without the Adobe's editing software, you can encode it and burn it in a Blue-Ray and sell it, do you think that you don't need a license to do that? well you don't know how the system works then, you have to pay royalties to use a codec and to use the blue-ray format.
Now with SC2 you certainly own the content you create with the game, also known as a replay file, what can you do with that replay file alone? well right now you can't do anything, it's just data that can be "seen" through the SC2 game, so if you want to profit from your replay you have to pay royalties to use the SC2 game to do that as you have to pay royalties to use the blue-ray platform.
On March 04 2010 00:18 UdderChaos wrote: Anyways my point is that blizzard could easily crush kespa, all it needs to do is set up it's own sc2 league in korea, offer bigger prize money and salaries than KeSPA's leagues do and then either buy thier way onto OGN and MBC or just set up thier own cannels, they have the money. Just think about it now, your a B-teamer or a low grade A-teamer and your earing peanuts in your current team, and there is no competetion in sc2 becuase of KeSPA's rules to stop them playing sc2, so you set up a team or join one and get paid like 3-4times becuase not only do blizzard offer more but the competition is less. And then KeSPA are fucked, becuase they lose thier progamers and can't compete with blizzards prize money and they can't set up an sc2 league becuase of the terms of service.
Koreans will boycott SC2 if some foreign company tried to muscle their way in and push out a Korean institution like Kespa. If you haven't noticed, Koreans are very nationalistic. They will buy inferior korean products over superior japanese products because of national pride.
Blizzard will have to work with Kespa if they want SC2 to take off as a esport. Korea is the only country in the world with esports. There's so many people in this thread that think Blizzard can start esports tournaments and then millions of westerners will start becoming fans. Look around you, 99% of the population never even heard of the word esports.
On March 04 2010 08:54 nimoraca wrote: You all Blizzard lovers need to understand that SC2 is not the content here. Its just the software used to make the content. The content are the games being played. Blizzard has no rights to the games being played. Its like saying Autodesk or Adobe have intellectual right for the movies being made with their software. People are not coming to the matches to watch the game itself, they can do that at home. They come to watch the games, the players, the show. Blizzard has no intellectual rights for that.
I kind of agree here. It's like saying anything I make in microsoft word, Microsoft has a claim to. That's just rubbish. Microsoft already collected their dues when we bought MS Office from them, just like Blizzard already collected their dues when we bought SC2 from them.
That you think it should work that way doesn't mean it works that way. The Microsoft Word analogy doesn't work. Why? Because Microsoft doesn't lay claim to the content you produce in their EULA.
On March 04 2010 00:18 UdderChaos wrote: Anyways my point is that blizzard could easily crush kespa, all it needs to do is set up it's own sc2 league in korea, offer bigger prize money and salaries than KeSPA's leagues do and then either buy thier way onto OGN and MBC or just set up thier own cannels, they have the money. Just think about it now, your a B-teamer or a low grade A-teamer and your earing peanuts in your current team, and there is no competetion in sc2 becuase of KeSPA's rules to stop them playing sc2, so you set up a team or join one and get paid like 3-4times becuase not only do blizzard offer more but the competition is less. And then KeSPA are fucked, becuase they lose thier progamers and can't compete with blizzards prize money and they can't set up an sc2 league becuase of the terms of service.
Blizzard will have to work with Kespa if they want SC2 to take off as a esport. Korea is the only country in the world with esports. There's so many people in this thread that think Blizzard can start esports tournaments and then millions of westerners will start becoming fans. Look around you, 99% of the population never even heard of the word esports.
I think Blizzard's goals with respect to SC2 as an esport include having it happen outside of Korea. You need to prove that a KeSPA-controlled SC2 esport scene would definitely spread SC2 esport to other continents. But I don't see any reason to believe that.
On March 04 2010 00:18 UdderChaos wrote: Anyways my point is that blizzard could easily crush kespa, all it needs to do is set up it's own sc2 league in korea, offer bigger prize money and salaries than KeSPA's leagues do and then either buy thier way onto OGN and MBC or just set up thier own cannels, they have the money. Just think about it now, your a B-teamer or a low grade A-teamer and your earing peanuts in your current team, and there is no competetion in sc2 becuase of KeSPA's rules to stop them playing sc2, so you set up a team or join one and get paid like 3-4times becuase not only do blizzard offer more but the competition is less. And then KeSPA are fucked, becuase they lose thier progamers and can't compete with blizzards prize money and they can't set up an sc2 league becuase of the terms of service.
Koreans will boycott SC2 if some foreign company tried to muscle their way in and push out a Korean institution like Kespa. If you haven't noticed, Koreans are very nationalistic. They will buy inferior korean products over superior japanese products because of national pride.
Blizzard will have to work with Kespa if they want SC2 to take off as a esport. Korea is the only country in the world with esports. There's so many people in this thread that think Blizzard can start esports tournaments and then millions of westerners will start becoming fans. Look around you, 99% of the population never even heard of the word esports.
On March 04 2010 00:18 UdderChaos wrote: Anyways my point is that blizzard could easily crush kespa, all it needs to do is set up it's own sc2 league in korea, offer bigger prize money and salaries than KeSPA's leagues do and then either buy thier way onto OGN and MBC or just set up thier own cannels, they have the money. Just think about it now, your a B-teamer or a low grade A-teamer and your earing peanuts in your current team, and there is no competetion in sc2 becuase of KeSPA's rules to stop them playing sc2, so you set up a team or join one and get paid like 3-4times becuase not only do blizzard offer more but the competition is less. And then KeSPA are fucked, becuase they lose thier progamers and can't compete with blizzards prize money and they can't set up an sc2 league becuase of the terms of service.
Koreans will boycott SC2 if some foreign company tried to muscle their way in and push out a Korean institution like Kespa. If you haven't noticed, Koreans are very nationalistic. They will buy inferior korean products over superior japanese products because of national pride.
Blizzard will have to work with Kespa if they want SC2 to take off as a esport. Korea is the only country in the world with esports. There's so many people in this thread that think Blizzard can start esports tournaments and then millions of westerners will start becoming fans. Look around you, 99% of the population never even heard of the word esports.
This. The nationalist / cultural angle is why Blizzard won't be able to buy their way in. Especially in international business, it is critical to understand that how things are done is almost as important as what's on the table. Next up in importance is the bargaining power.
On March 04 2010 07:46 RiGun wrote: Now what Blizzard can do is just to ignore KeSPA, start from ground zero and build a new progaming scene for SC2 that fits Blizzard's ideal, they might want to get some money out of the e-sports but the cut is quite low compared to SC2 sales and WoW accounts so I believe that money isn't the real issue.
You really think that Blizzard is going to put money into building teams and infrastructure from scratch when they've never done that before? The whole reason for Blizzard's face-off with Kespa is because they clearly don't want to do that -- if they were willing to invest money to create a new scene they could ignore Kespa.
Why would Blizzard sponsor teams? that makes no sense at all, what they should do is to sponsor big tournaments with big prizes, if teams get to be sponsored by some other companies that's another story.
It would be the same if you asked the F1 managers to make teams, put money in a racing team, that's non sense there, money comes from sponsors not from KeSPa.
Kespa is the sponsors. It's made up of representatives from the sponsoring companies and the broadcasters. They're the ones bankrolling the teams and thus guaranteeing the commercial viability of the proscene. Too many people in this thread seem to think that Kespa is some sort of outside body intruding on pure, noble esports when in fact they're the ones making it possible, regardless of how stingy and stubborn they can be.
Personally, we don't need a large media mogul to take the reigns of SCII. The community itself can do this and be self-sustaining.
www.boxee.tv
Would Team Liquid be interested in setting up their own Boxee TV Network which broadcasts SC II 24/7? It would be the SC II e-Sports hub. Once it got big enough you could get advertisements/sponsors. Something to think about.
On March 04 2010 09:28 T.O.P. wrote: Blizzard will have to work with Kespa if they want SC2 to take off as a esport. Korea is the only country in the world with esports. There's so many people in this thread that think Blizzard can start esports tournaments and then millions of westerners will start becoming fans. Look around you, 99% of the population never even heard of the word esports.
Ever heard of MLG? Top Halo players in the U.S. get paid more than Korean SC progamers.
Kespa might be able to ride the nationalist angle for a while, but at the end of the day, if SC 2 is a hit I don't see Koreans boycotting it forever. Once the amateur gamers switch it's going to be hard for the progamers to hold on. Also, events like the WCG aren't run by Kespa though Samsung is involved. I guess we'll see Samsung's take on all this since they're the ones sponsoring a lot of international esports events (and is the real power broker in Korea).
It seems a lot of people here forget that Blizzard made another RTS after starcraft and how that RTS followed through in Korea. In all likelihood, SCII will follow the footsteps of warcraft 3.
On March 03 2010 19:43 T.O.P. wrote: I wonder. Do Blizzard retains all rights to games played by it's users? If I play a game, does Blizzard own my replay? If they don't how can Blizzard charge for a license when it's the players (Kespa) who are creating the content?
Your replay is just a file on your computer, there's no real ownership to it so it's not quite the same.
But if you intended to make money off of showing your replay Blizzard would be entitled to a piece of the cake since they spent 7 years + and alot of money and hard work on creating the game that you would essentially be making money off of. With that being said, seeing how Blizzard sponsored GOM and made them "certified" it really seems like they want to support E-Sport financially, not charge for it, they just want the control of what people are doing with their game, and don't want others to profit from their work.
Edit: They don't own "The match" that you played, they just own the platform you played it on, a match is just a series of specific events in time.
If the legal technicalities say that Blizzard is entitled to a piece of the profits that you earn from their products, then shouldn't all other companies charge other people for using their product to make something of their own? If the people already bought the game cd i dont understand why they are still entitled to more than that. For example, if someone started a sock business, do the business owners owe the the person who invented socks more money just because they are using that person's idea to expand and make their own profits?
On March 03 2010 19:50 Navane wrote: I'm guessing KESPA will not allow ogn/mbc to stream sc2 games if KESPA is not part of the deal. They can do that because of sc1.
KeSPA dosnt own ogn/mbc KeSPA just owns the pro SC1 teams
Blizzard can just shut down kespa or ignore it if the legal battle isn't worth it. I say that SC2 e-sports will be huge outside of Korea and there will be more sponsor money outside of Korea than inside, it would be a shame to lose all the korean players but that would also allow the games skill level/meta to progress in a more entertaining way. When pro gamers contracts end I'm sure there will be people outside of Korea to pay them a LOT to be top SC2 players.
Obviously I would prefer if everyone got along and worked together.
On March 03 2010 19:43 T.O.P. wrote: I wonder. Do Blizzard retains all rights to games played by it's users? If I play a game, does Blizzard own my replay? If they don't how can Blizzard charge for a license when it's the players (Kespa) who are creating the content?
Your replay is just a file on your computer, there's no real ownership to it so it's not quite the same.
But if you intended to make money off of showing your replay Blizzard would be entitled to a piece of the cake since they spent 7 years + and alot of money and hard work on creating the game that you would essentially be making money off of. With that being said, seeing how Blizzard sponsored GOM and made them "certified" it really seems like they want to support E-Sport financially, not charge for it, they just want the control of what people are doing with their game, and don't want others to profit from their work.
Edit: They don't own "The match" that you played, they just own the platform you played it on, a match is just a series of specific events in time.
If the legal technicalities say that Blizzard is entitled to a piece of the profits that you earn from their products, then shouldn't all other companies charge other people for using their product to make something of their own? If the people already bought the game cd i dont understand why they are still entitled to more than that. For example, if someone started a sock business, do the business owners owe the the person who invented socks more money just because they are using that person's idea to expand and make their own profits?
Yes, if the concept of socks and/or the specific way that the socks are made is patented or copyrighted, then you would owe money to the person that holds those rights.
On March 03 2010 22:42 d_so wrote: all you kids commenting about how "wrong" kespa is don't realize that they have the only e-sports model proven to be financially sustainable over the long term. Blizzard would do good to partner with them instead of trying to replace them, not just in korea but internationally as well. why?
1.) Kespa has been proven to be an effective marketer of videogames to the noncompetitive, casual gamer, as well as the nongamer... and most significantly, women. As any sports marketing director knows, the way to maintain a long-term fanbase is to satisfy the hardcore fans while attracting the casual fan, especially females. It's specifically the reason why EVERY olympics, superbowl, nba championship whatever has some sort of heart-felt story about a person/player recovering/overcoming/fighting through some sort of physical/traumatic/death-in-the-family experience. And it's the same reason why Progaming Television techniques attach as much significance to the personality of a player -- as well as his sex appeal -- as their talent.
On the other hand, notice how Blizzard is emphasizing online tournaments and forcing everyone to go through Bnet, eliminating the face attached to the game that makes the the Korean Starcraft Scene so personable. Would you have team loyalties, player loyalties, fan clubs, merchandise, or effeminate pictures if Bisu's face wasn't broadcast with his game? Course not! And yet Blizzard, in their quest for a WoW-like continuous revenue source, is going to create a system that not only forces royalties but counter-productively dehumanizes the game and alienates potential fans.
Some of you people might bring up WoW as an example of Blizzard's ability to attract non-hardcore gamers. Trust me, MMORPGs are completely different from competitive gaming. You can get fat ugly divorcees playing such games (a la secondlife) but that is not relevant to their interest in competitive gaming.
2.) Kespa has the best E-sports revenue model. This is almost undeniable. KeSPA's revenue model is so well-run that it doesn't have to charge for seating at its games. How fucking ridiculous is that. Imagine a sport like Football or basketball or whatever being able to create enough revenue from advertising to outweigh the expenses of paying players, maintaining a stadium, front office overhead, etc. This is just so freaking mindblowing that i'm surprised it doesn't get more notice. And the reason why they're able to do this is cuz of their partnerships with OGN and MBCGame, two DEDICATED tv networks backed by huge corporations (OnMedia and MBC).
You could argue they got lucky to have TV channels willing to take the risk and broadcast pro-gaming. but how the hell were they able to convince them in the first place? How were they able to show that Starcraft carries with it a tangible, outstanding interest that can be translated into advertising revenue? Once again, it goes back to marketing. Every epic new game that comes out is able to create spikes in interest for a short period of time. But you can't sustain it over the long term without attracting the casual gamer and the nongamer.
You know what else helps maintain their revenue model? They don't have to worry about any "morality" strikes from upset parents with old-traditional values. Why is that? It's cuz..
3.) KeSPA is effectively a government lobbyist. Tell me something. Do you ever fathom there will be a videogaming lobby in the US? Course not! They can't create a significant enough constituency with the current gaming crowd in america, which is becoming a bit more diverse in attracting female gamers but does not have enough "normal" people.
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Now let's talk about Blizzard. First, they make great games. Second, mostly due to WoW, blizzard no longer is interested in the "potential revenue" that comes with popularity --> interest --> advertising dollars. This is cuz they built a realizable, continuous revenue machine with WoW... and now they want a similar system with SC2. There's no other way to explain why they're making THREE games when the only thing that'll be different is storylines or why they're excluding LAN and forcing everyone to get approval from them in broadcasting their games. In other words, they're NOT creating an "esports division" because they think can do better (they can't.) but because they want to make money.
This post is already tl;dr but i want to add one last point. Korea is known to be a marketing hell where only the fittest survive. Winning the approval of Korean customers is like the Gold seal of approval for every fashion brand interested in gaining an Asian fanbase. Look up Prada in Korea for one example of a brand that invested a gang of money and created all sorts of diverse marketing strategies to win the korean customers, especially since how Korea rolls, a LOT of asia follows with them. Blizzard would be smart to realize two things: 1.) ESPORTS in america will never come to fruition because there's no way to create the demand necessary for advertising revenue, and 2.) if blizzard wants to be a huge part of the Asian Esports scene, they should partner with Kespa and proliferate their revenue model + marketing strategy across the continent.
KeSPA did not invent nor do they maintain the business model created by OGN and MBC. They also have nothing to do with OGN or MBC's marketing. This is like saying the NHLPA is responsible for the commercial success of the NHL -_-
that's like saying Kespa is just the player's union when it's clearly not. Kespa is the goverment backed governing association for all things esports. Kespa may have not invented the model but that's irrelevant since those that created model are now part of Kespa and are represented by Kespa. Anyone who currently wants to emulate that business model and is looking for advice needs to contact Kespa to do so.
On March 03 2010 19:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: lol there are enough talented, diligent korean SC players that the current roster of every pro SC team can be totally absent from SC2 and there will still be a large korean presence
if blizzard's got everything on lockdown, KeSPA can't do shit about it. They can't interfere with SC2 teams outside their sphere of influence, and they can't organize or broadcast pro SC2. They're retarded to think they're a vital part of the infrastructure ^_^
This.
I don't know who KeSPA think they are...They exist because of Starcraft. Who are they to think they have any control or power over it?
I can't say I know much about progaming in Korea other than what I've watched, but I know Blizzard and competitive gaming in Wc3. I don't think the maps ever changed. Lost Temple is still probably one of the most played maps. None of the maps were innovative or interesting. There was no Outsider or anything of the sort. The game wasn't made for competitive gaming because gamers weren't allowed to advance it, a corporation was. I don't know if Kespa is right for the job, but it's not good for a corporation to own a game. Making a great game is different than running the tournaments and everything else to make it "pro", and I haven't seen Blizzard do it correctly (look at those joke of "tournaments" on Wc3 every day...)
On March 04 2010 12:24 rackdude wrote: I can't say I know much about progaming in Korea other than what I've watched, but I know Blizzard and competitive gaming in Wc3. I don't think the maps ever changed. Lost Temple is still probably one of the most played maps. None of the maps were innovative or interesting. There was no Outsider or anything of the sort. The game wasn't made for competitive gaming because gamers weren't allowed to advance it, a corporation was. I don't know if Kespa is right for the job, but it's not good for a corporation to own a game. Making a great game is different than running the tournaments and everything else to make it "pro", and I haven't seen Blizzard do it correctly (look at those joke of "tournaments" on Wc3 every day...)
Joke tournaments ? You mean the tournaments with more viewers and more prize money than TSL2 ? Like WEM in december: WEM WC3 placings: 1st Manuel 'Grubby' Schenkhuizen $14,000 2nd Jae Ho 'Moon' Jang $6,000 3rd-4th Deok Man 'SocceR' Youn $2,000 3rd-4th Zhuo 'TeD' Zeng $2,000 5th-8th Xiaofeng 'Sky' Li $500 5th-8th June 'Lyn' Park $500 5th-8th Xuwen 'InFi' Wang $500 5th-8th Weiliang 'Fly100%' Lu $500
If SC2 progaming takes off in North America; or not even the world, and is controlled by Blizzard as opposed to Kespa, we'll see a lot more high class sponsors, and a lot more money for the entity as a whole.
Korea and KeSPA have shown what can be done; it's up to Blizzard now to improve on that, and take it to new heights.
On March 03 2010 19:07 {88}iNcontroL wrote: In the end it isn't blizzard that gets hurt by Kespa's arrogance however.. it will be the proteams/kespa. Going to war with the company that CREATED/MAINTAINS and OWNS the game you base your entire existence sounds absolutely retarded.
Yes I understand the gray area involved and the "complicated" actuality of this but.. I cannot imagine kespa benefiting in the end from this "war."
They might not have leverage, but as a promoter, Blizzard would be a fool to not promote in Korea. I understand that profits will be numerous from other nations but Korea as you all obviously know, it is a nation that is a even sort of like a franchise because of the numerous amount of copies of Starcraft it sells. I would know because I am Korean, and though Blizzard has the upper-hand, there's a chance that KEspa may get a lot more benefits out of this deal than you imagine.
I'm sorry, but following the "slave agent" incident with Jaedong last year, I really couldn't give a dip #$@% more about KeSPA anymore. Seriously, you have to pay the team you're getting the player from TWICE the yearly salary just for a transfer? Oh and what? You have two weeks to negotiate, without an agent (KeSPA BANS players from getting agents), while playing in the late stages of MSL, OSL, and Proleague finals? Seriously, in my honest opinion, if KeSPA wants to put a stranglehold on Korean eSports, then go ahead. But in five years and they're running out of cash, I would like to say, shame on you for depriving your players and working them like animals so you can earn your little money.
Sorry, but #@$% you guys for comparing KeSPA with any professional sport organization around the world. They're ages behind, and I hope greedyass Blizzard crushes their ass so Pro-gamers don't have to live in damn bunk-beds eating instant noodles every day.
Or them sc1 pros could see how much money W3 pros make even though they arnt as psychotically crazy practicing a billion hours a day.....and switch to sc2 to make more money.
From my perspective, Blizzard seems to be doing a better job promoting and developing the e-sports scene in America than anybody ever has in history. They've invested a lot of time and resources into Starcraft 2. KeSPA's refusal to comply with Blizzard's new regime is a stupid move on their part. Yes, Korea may hit a few bumps on the road to SC2's e-sport status, but this isn't about Korea. It's about launching e-sports over here in the states with this title, and if KeSPA doesn't want any part of it it's their loss.
I guess it comes down to the fact that 10 years ago there was absolutely no infrastructure in place, nobody at Blizzard expected Starcraft to be what it is today. KeSPA was a vital stepping stone towards the success of the Starcraft e-sports scene, but in this new age of gaming the organization as a whole seems less and less critical to its survival.
On March 03 2010 22:56 zatic wrote: Esport Cold War
What people need to realize is that both parties stand pretty much toe to toe in this. Both have about equal means to threaten each other it's not all like one party has the upper hand.
Blizzard could drag Kespa to court over copyright, but it's the last thing they want to do. A case like this would be dragged out for years, cost a lot, and the result would be entirely uncertain. The IP of computer game generated content has not been resolved at all in court anywhere as far as I know. Together with the production value the Korean TV broadcasts add to the product it is not at all clear who really owns the copyright to the TV rights, or who owns how much. The "best" Blizzard could hope for is shutting down pro BW after spending a lot of money and time in court - something that isn't at all in their interest. They would only lose.
On the other hand, Kespa can't continue with SC2 as they did with BW. Demanding licensing and challenging IP would be much easier for SC2 in the beginning from Blizzard perspective. However, Kespa could refuse to cooperate and use their influence over the TV stations and the teams to not give SC2 any recognition. Again, this is the last thing they want to do as well. The result would be equally uncertain as Blizzard's prospect suing Kespa. They might push SC2 in a niche, and continue to live off decreasing BW interest. But it might also create a new rival, whether this would be GOM or a completely new entity. The "best" they can hope for is destroying or hurting SC2's success while also hurting the value of their current product. They would only lose.
The two have equally disastrous means to hurt and thus threaten each other, but out of their own interest they won't do so, and both know it. So what we see are all those petty little maneuvers with which they try to demonstrate who has the upper hand. In the end, they will have to work together, or ignore each other enough that both can still do business.
I agree with this. Both sides are posturing right now to see who will blink first. The deadline is probably around the release of SC2 in Korea. When SC2 is released, it will be time for the Pro Leagues to switch to SC2 - if Blizzard and Kespa haven't come to an agreement by then, SC2 as an E-Sport in Korea and Kespa will both get hurt and neither side wants that.
The worst thing you can do in marketing is to FUBAR the release of your product. In this case, the product is SC2 as a Pro League E-Sport. Both sides know they need to come to an agreement before SC2 is relased in Korea.
On March 04 2010 14:17 Azarkon wrote: Well, first Blizzard needs to prove that they can make SC 2 the same competitive game that SC 1 was. Ret's most recent post on GG.net comes to mind.
Hold off on any opinions until you play at least 1500-2000 games.
On March 04 2010 14:17 Azarkon wrote: Well, first Blizzard needs to prove that they can make SC 2 the same competitive game that SC 1 was. Ret's most recent post on GG.net comes to mind.
On March 04 2010 14:17 Azarkon wrote: Well, first Blizzard needs to prove that they can make SC 2 the same competitive game that SC 1 was. Ret's most recent post on GG.net comes to mind.
Words like SC2 will beat starcraft is really laughable, people keep implying that cus blizzard broadcast online blah blah. U'll be disappointed. Producers especially those with big market share always hype their goods way up before release, after that u see it die down like every product. Especially its not role playing game it will last shorter. SC:BW and WC3 actually didn't last more than 3 years in foreign scene except for the few players that play untill now. What i mean is the period every random player played. So GL trying to create world wide esports.
Removing LAN option is not a prob because hackers will find a way through for our random gamer to play on LAN, but it prevents kespa from hosting it using 3rd party programs. So a very smart tactic possibly to force kespa to buy the rights in the future. But i don't think it'll ever happen.
How the hell is KeSPA expecting to win this war? Let's go over what each side has to lose:
Blizzard: -Tiny drop in the bucket of their vast WoW-funded treasury. Everyone will still buy it even if KeSPA cries forever. KeSPA might hurt their profit margins by 0.1%?
KeSPA: -Everything. Oh no, wait, they could try to keep going with only Korean-made games, like Sudden Attack. (LOOOOOOOOOOOOL)
Blizzard isn't going to be KeSPA's bitch over their own game.
I can't even begin to understand what Kespa could put up with in the long run.
It's Blizzards game. Kespa has no rights in this matter, they can negotiate and try to come up with a good solution but in the end the creator of the game chooses what to do with the game. simple as that.
it's important to know that the Blizzard EULA is based on US law. Other countries do not have to respect it when it is presented in their court. Think of the MS window license problem in EU, they were force to change what is otherwise perfectly fine in the US.
On March 03 2010 22:56 zatic wrote: Esport Cold War
What people need to realize is that both parties stand pretty much toe to toe in this. Both have about equal means to threaten each other it's not all like one party has the upper hand.
Blizzard could drag Kespa to court over copyright, but it's the last thing they want to do. A case like this would be dragged out for years, cost a lot, and the result would be entirely uncertain. The IP of computer game generated content has not been resolved at all in court anywhere as far as I know. Together with the production value the Korean TV broadcasts add to the product it is not at all clear who really owns the copyright to the TV rights, or who owns how much. The "best" Blizzard could hope for is shutting down pro BW after spending a lot of money and time in court - something that isn't at all in their interest. They would only lose.
On the other hand, Kespa can't continue with SC2 as they did with BW. Demanding licensing and challenging IP would be much easier for SC2 in the beginning from Blizzard perspective. However, Kespa could refuse to cooperate and use their influence over the TV stations and the teams to not give SC2 any recognition. Again, this is the last thing they want to do as well. The result would be equally uncertain as Blizzard's prospect suing Kespa. They might push SC2 in a niche, and continue to live off decreasing BW interest. But it might also create a new rival, whether this would be GOM or a completely new entity. The "best" they can hope for is destroying or hurting SC2's success while also hurting the value of their current product. They would only lose.
The two have equally disastrous means to hurt and thus threaten each other, but out of their own interest they won't do so, and both know it. So what we see are all those petty little maneuvers with which they try to demonstrate who has the upper hand. In the end, they will have to work together, or ignore each other enough that both can still do business.
On March 03 2010 22:56 zatic wrote: Esport Cold War
What people need to realize is that both parties stand pretty much toe to toe in this. Both have about equal means to threaten each other it's not all like one party has the upper hand.
Blizzard could drag Kespa to court over copyright, but it's the last thing they want to do. A case like this would be dragged out for years, cost a lot, and the result would be entirely uncertain. The IP of computer game generated content has not been resolved at all in court anywhere as far as I know. Together with the production value the Korean TV broadcasts add to the product it is not at all clear who really owns the copyright to the TV rights, or who owns how much. The "best" Blizzard could hope for is shutting down pro BW after spending a lot of money and time in court - something that isn't at all in their interest. They would only lose.
On the other hand, Kespa can't continue with SC2 as they did with BW. Demanding licensing and challenging IP would be much easier for SC2 in the beginning from Blizzard perspective. However, Kespa could refuse to cooperate and use their influence over the TV stations and the teams to not give SC2 any recognition. Again, this is the last thing they want to do as well. The result would be equally uncertain as Blizzard's prospect suing Kespa. They might push SC2 in a niche, and continue to live off decreasing BW interest. But it might also create a new rival, whether this would be GOM or a completely new entity. The "best" they can hope for is destroying or hurting SC2's success while also hurting the value of their current product. They would only lose.
The two have equally disastrous means to hurt and thus threaten each other, but out of their own interest they won't do so, and both know it. So what we see are all those petty little maneuvers with which they try to demonstrate who has the upper hand. In the end, they will have to work together, or ignore each other enough that both can still do business.
While it may be true for BW, I don't agree with SC2 part having the same cold war feeling.
Kespa = 0 when it comes to SC2. Money is money, if they decide their precious little teams wont participate, well, I have a feeling there's a few million South Korean teenagers who would be more than happy to take the tournament money. Then you'll see SC players(think Bisu, Jaedong, Flash) not wanting to renew contracts because there's bigger money in SC2 and they have the skill to take that money. Then you'll start seeing teams fall apart. Then the teams will start to lose sponsors. Then you'll start seeing worsening relations between Kespa and individual teams. Then you'll see Kespa die, and the infrastructure collapse.
There are more than enough TV stations ready to broadcast SC2 games if OGN/MBC don't do it. And if anything good came out of Kespa, a new organization would come to life in a matter of months and re-do the good things.
That's why Kespa will eventually bend over, and allow blizzard to take them from behind.
On March 04 2010 08:54 nimoraca wrote: You all Blizzard lovers need to understand that SC2 is not the content here. Its just the software used to make the content. The content are the games being played. Blizzard has no rights to the games being played. Its like saying Autodesk or Adobe have intellectual right for the movies being made with their software. People are not coming to the matches to watch the game itself, they can do that at home. They come to watch the games, the players, the show. Blizzard has no intellectual rights for that.
I have no idea how you read the EULA and came up with that interpretation.
EULA: You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Program to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Program to others without the prior written consent of Blizzard. (ii) exploit the Program or any of its parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site. Blizzard may offer a separate Site License Agreement to permit you to make the Program available for commercial use; contact Blizzard for details;
If something is written in the EULA, it doesn't mean it is legal.
Actually, NFL is comparable to KeSPA, not Blizzard, so that analogy doesn't work. Nor does actually the one about pool. It is not clear which one would win a legal battle.
The difference between the NFL and KeSPA is that NFL is owns the entire surrounding infrastructure as related to reproducing the games they play, but nobody owns the game itself. They play football, which is not copyrighted. Their legal rights come from the fact that they create and manage these games and teams. KeSPA plays Starcraft, which is copyrighted. While similar to the NFL in that they both manage teams and organize games, they do not actually own the rights to the game they play. In fact the way they broadcast the games using the "replay" technology is provided specifically by Blizzard and any telecasts of the games are basically a derivative work (IE under copyright by Blizzard). Blizzard could shut them the hell down if they really wanted to, while there is nobody that could "shut down" the NFL for playing footbal.[/QUOTE]
Well, it seems you know more about law and the bolded part I don't know much about, so I stand corrected.
Just to clarify, since a lot of people seem to be screwing this up [though it seems like people're screwing a lot of 'facts' up, I'm less familiar with the history of KeSPA so I'll refrain from commenting].
Activision Blizzard is -not- the same as Blizzard Entertainment.
Blizzard was owned by Vivendi Interactive, which is owned by Vivendi which is an entertainment conglomerate - It owns large amounts of or controlling stakes in Universal Music, NBC Universal and now what's now known as Activison Blizzard, among other things.
Activision Blizzard came about when Vivendi Interactive bought controlling stakes in Activision.
Blizzard Entertainment currently gets 98% of its income from WoW, with operating margins at roughly 50%. WoW, along with the CoD and Guitar Hero franchises, generate more than 2/3rds of Activision Blizzard's net profit. Blizzard Entertainment has extremely deep pockets at the moment, and gets given a lot of leeway to do their own thing, because they're making so much money.
Currently they're working on SC2 [2010], Cataclysm [2010], Diablo3 [2011], Unnamed New Franchise MMO [2011].
On March 04 2010 11:13 Raz0r wrote: If the legal technicalities say that Blizzard is entitled to a piece of the profits that you earn from their products, then shouldn't all other companies charge other people for using their product to make something of their own? If the people already bought the game cd i dont understand why they are still entitled to more than that. For example, if someone started a sock business, do the business owners owe the the person who invented socks more money just because they are using that person's idea to expand and make their own profits?
Unfortunately, it's even more complicated than that. People need to understand that intellectual property cannot change ownership in the same sense that a sock, or a car or any other physical thing can, nor can it be bought in the same way, nor stolen. You also don't "own" the replay file (or any file on your computer for that matter), in the same sense in which you own your socks or the hard drive, on which you store your files. Legally it is a completely different matter and it's a difference that matters.
The best analogy I can think of would be a DJ, who mixes up a song with his l33t mixing skills and asks people to pay for it. He will need to pay royalties to the author of that song no matter if the people only come to watch/hear his skills, because the song he uses is not and never will be his property, but was authored by someone else. He does not require to pay royalties to, nor permission to use from the manufacturer of his mixing station, because this is his property and he can deduce different usage rights from the fact that he owns it.
Can somebody link me to a source which explains what kind of broadcast rights Kespa/OGN/MBC bought from Blizzard in 2001, cause I never heard about that before.
Actually, NFL is comparable to KeSPA, not Blizzard, so that analogy doesn't work. Nor does actually the one about pool. It is not clear which one would win a legal battle.
The difference between the NFL and KeSPA is that NFL is owns the entire surrounding infrastructure as related to reproducing the games they play, but nobody owns the game itself. They play football, which is not copyrighted. Their legal rights come from the fact that they create and manage these games and teams. KeSPA plays Starcraft, which is copyrighted. While similar to the NFL in that they both manage teams and organize games, they do not actually own the rights to the game they play. In fact the way they broadcast the games using the "replay" technology is provided specifically by Blizzard and any telecasts of the games are basically a derivative work (IE under copyright by Blizzard). Blizzard could shut them the hell down if they really wanted to, while there is nobody that could "shut down" the NFL for playing footbal.
QFT. Blizzard can play the trump card, it's sad this is turning out to be a conflict. These two parties have benefited each other enormously up until now! The greed involved on, perhaps both, either side is misplaced. Negotiations over rights are bound to happen, but in the end are really just battling for who profits most. And Blizzard wins an all-out war like Squeegy says.
But Blizz is anything but a dumb company, and keeping KeSPA on their side somehow to further propagate pro-gaming in Korea, and hopefully, elsewhere all over the world (with their game as a pure profit per units sold of course) is probably on their agenda.
Well in the end it all comes down to the fact that korea is the only country with a professional e-sport foundation. Be it the players, the stations or the fact that it's the only place where multibillion dollar companies like Samsung are willing to sponsor a team for several years and not just on a event to event basis.
What's happening here is totally crazy anyway. If you allow the football analogy. Blizzard is not just changing the color of the grass but the entire game. This might be easy to handle for basement kids, but it's something completely different for anybody else in the business.
i don't know...If it wasnt for SC2 how much presence would Blizzard show in Korea anyway?
don't mistake KeSPA as being low on resources - it's backed by over 10 of the largest corporations in SKorea, the sponsors of the pro-gaming teams.
Also, tournament money is provided by sponsors, so if there are no interested sponsors, or no large sponsors - then the available prizes won't be attractive.
Spectator sports are about audiences and sponsorship. If a game/sport/etc attracts a viewing audience that is attractive to advertisers, then sponsors will provide the money to run leagues and tournaments. I don't think SC2, despite whatever quality Blizzard is capable of, has anything special about it that will cause it to attract an unusually large breakout audience in the west. It's just another computer/video game that probably won't have appeal beyond the game playing audience, so I really don't think SC2's pro-gaming growth will start in the west, if it's to surpass previous games like counterstrike or unreal tournament. If Blizzard's conflict with KeSPA comes to be perceived in SKorea as a nationalistic issue, then SC2's competitive scene there may end up stillborn. Plus who's to say that SC2 will even reach SC1's level of popularity even if everyone cooperated? Several games have come and go since SC1's release and none of them have developed scenes as large.
On March 04 2010 00:18 UdderChaos wrote: What's to stop blizzard just toally crushing KeSPA? Ignoring the right/wrong debate, which I think is useless, this is a fight that comes down to who has the biggest stick, moral or not. Blizzard has a rediculous amount of money at it's disposal, epsecaily if you count activision too, the biggest game company in the world and I think they said on thier conference call that they are the 3rd largest software company in the world in some aspect like distribution or development or something, which is just insane.
Anyways my point is that blizzard could easily crush kespa, all it needs to do is set up it's own sc2 league in korea, offer bigger prize money and salaries than KeSPA's leagues do and then either buy thier way onto OGN and MBC or just set up thier own cannels, they have the money. Just think about it now, your a B-teamer or a low grade A-teamer and your earing peanuts in your current team, and there is no competetion in sc2 becuase of KeSPA's rules to stop them playing sc2, so you set up a team or join one and get paid like 3-4times becuase not only do blizzard offer more but the competition is less. And then KeSPA are fucked, becuase they lose thier progamers and can't compete with blizzards prize money and they can't set up an sc2 league becuase of the terms of service.
Sounds great and all, but why would they do this when it would only bring small profits in the end? if at all. Blizzard doesn't have the sponsorship list that KeSPA has, and therefore would be almost impossible for them to break a buck on something like this. KeSPA has the list and Blizzard has the merchandise. They need to find a way to sort this out within the next year.
No, they don't need to find a way. Actually only KESPA and absolutely no one else needs to find a way.
If Korean viewers/public want SC2 E-Sport (demand) it will exist and sponsors will jump on it (supply). If there is no demand, KESPA would have nothing to do. If there is demand, there will be supply,w ith or whiteout KESPA, with or whiteout former SC/BW pro gamers.
The "actors" don't matter, how the game is recieved by the *consumers/viewers* of E-Sport is what decides its fate.
On March 03 2010 19:07 {88}iNcontroL wrote: In the end it isn't blizzard that gets hurt by Kespa's arrogance however.. it will be the proteams/kespa. Going to war with the company that CREATED/MAINTAINS and OWNS the game you base your entire existence sounds absolutely retarded.
Yes I understand the gray area involved and the "complicated" actuality of this but.. I cannot imagine kespa benefiting in the end from this "war."
Everything boils down to how fun a game is to watch in SC2. Atm its quite fun cos everything is new and has better graphics but it'll be whether there is a difference in a bronze and platinum player down the line other then build-order wins.
The things that bring the excitement in the long term aren't throwing 2 armies attack move against each other but the things like lurker/tank positions, drop plays, defiler swarms and plagues, psi storms, mines and so on.
I feel terran is so similar to its previous incarnation that it'll stay interesting to ppl that like watching them already and protoss to a similar degree except with some new twists with the new units but essentially it'll still feel like watching the good toss of old. My only concern is that zerg isn't particularly interesting to watch as its generally a-move business due to a lack of decent spells/lurker type micro positioning action.
For me its a good enough game to do well enough to stand on its own in the west but in korea they will definitely want zerg to be more interesting then it is atm as its lost 3 super micro fun units in scourge, muta, lurker, defiler. Even though there are new units and mechanics like offensive nydus, mass units, and the odd new units it doesn't look like there is a replacement fun/critical units to show skills.
Once Blizzard solve/work on the zerg situation I feel there is nothing kespa or anyone can do to stop them dictating televised starcraft 2 as it'll be popular in korea. But that will definately not be for 2 years at the least. Maybe after 1 year SC2 will be on TV in some form in korea once its been released but nothing serious for at least a full year i'd think.
No but seriously if the future of sc2 e-sports should have a govering bodey then imo it would be best if that concisted of a fusion between iccup and gom not KeSPA!
also it's not like korean pro-gamers necessarily have to be the best players if the whole world have a supportive leauge and teams and sponsors, they just sound so overrated so times
On March 03 2010 19:34 Rothbardian wrote: Blizzard should just ignore Kespa and work with GOM. GOM should start trying to go to sponsors for SC II. There doesn't need to be a team league to start off, just fun exciting tournaments that aren't as strictly controlled and ran like Kespa. Kespa needs some competition and no one is preventing Gom. GOM get in, on this shit!
GOM isn't all that much better than KeSPA...they're all evil -_-
@adeeler - even though zerg have lost muta, lurker, and defiler, you should remember that muta micro and defiler usage did not evolve in starcraft 1 for quite a while after the game had come out...its not like a month after starcraft 1, defiler play was typical or muta micro existed at all. For all we know, micro such as these could conceivably evolve after the release of starcraft II, and some units probably have the potential for interesting micro, even if it isn't evolved yet.
On March 03 2010 19:43 T.O.P. wrote: I wonder. Do Blizzard retains all rights to games played by it's users? If I play a game, does Blizzard own my replay? If they don't how can Blizzard charge for a license when it's the players (Kespa) who are creating the content?
Your replay is just a file on your computer, there's no real ownership to it so it's not quite the same.
But if you intended to make money off of showing your replay Blizzard would be entitled to a piece of the cake since they spent 7 years + and alot of money and hard work on creating the game that you would essentially be making money off of. With that being said, seeing how Blizzard sponsored GOM and made them "certified" it really seems like they want to support E-Sport financially, not charge for it, they just want the control of what people are doing with their game, and don't want others to profit from their work.
Edit: They don't own "The match" that you played, they just own the platform you played it on, a match is just a series of specific events in time.
I'm not sure if the above is true. I believe, in the United States, when you purchase a digital program, like a Starcraft CD-rom, it becomes yours and you may make as many copies of it as you want, do anything with it, as long as you arent making money from it. So, I don't believe that replays are illegal to sell, (if someone ever was to want to buy one lol) but as for live broadcasting it gets complicated.
I disagree with people saying that the Blizzard rep can just snap his fingers and close down KESPA. The game channels and the teams hold alot of power and the teams should exert their dominance and not be conned. I see the slight paranoia about it from Kespa, but they are being realistic, in the business world everyone is looking to f#@$ you over.
They are purposely over-reaching, and i would agree with them morally and from a business standpoint, they should haggling very high and maximizing every contract and deal.
On March 03 2010 22:56 zatic wrote: Esport Cold War
What people need to realize is that both parties stand pretty much toe to toe in this. Both have about equal means to threaten each other it's not all like one party has the upper hand.
Blizzard could drag Kespa to court over copyright, but it's the last thing they want to do. A case like this would be dragged out for years, cost a lot, and the result would be entirely uncertain. The IP of computer game generated content has not been resolved at all in court anywhere as far as I know. Together with the production value the Korean TV broadcasts add to the product it is not at all clear who really owns the copyright to the TV rights, or who owns how much. The "best" Blizzard could hope for is shutting down pro BW after spending a lot of money and time in court - something that isn't at all in their interest. They would only lose.
On the other hand, Kespa can't continue with SC2 as they did with BW. Demanding licensing and challenging IP would be much easier for SC2 in the beginning from Blizzard perspective. However, Kespa could refuse to cooperate and use their influence over the TV stations and the teams to not give SC2 any recognition. Again, this is the last thing they want to do as well. The result would be equally uncertain as Blizzard's prospect suing Kespa. They might push SC2 in a niche, and continue to live off decreasing BW interest. But it might also create a new rival, whether this would be GOM or a completely new entity. The "best" they can hope for is destroying or hurting SC2's success while also hurting the value of their current product. They would only lose.
The two have equally disastrous means to hurt and thus threaten each other, but out of their own interest they won't do so, and both know it. So what we see are all those petty little maneuvers with which they try to demonstrate who has the upper hand. In the end, they will have to work together, or ignore each other enough that both can still do business.
While it may be true for BW, I don't agree with SC2 part having the same cold war feeling.
Kespa = 0 when it comes to SC2. There are more than enough TV stations ready to broadcast SC2 games if OGN/MBC don't do it. And if anything good came out of Kespa, a new organization would come to life in a matter of months and re-do the good things.
That's why Kespa will eventually bend over, and allow blizzard to take them from behind.
What I am describing is the now, the pre-SC2 situation. Both are dancing around each other to try to make the best for themselves for SC2. And it's not so easy as you make it. Kespa has a lot more than 0 when it comes to SC2. They have their experience, their influence and the existing esports infrastructure. Recreating all that would be tremendously costly and something Blizzard does not want to do for sure.
To all the people arguing ownership of the broadcasts and/or replays, this is an entirely unproven legal field and how IP can be attributed there is not at all clear. Thus it also makes absolutely no sense to compare to cars, pool tables (wtf), real life sports, or even other software products.
The biggest issue I see which I'm disapointed wasn't mentioned is the establishment of precedent. KESPA isn't just being a cock because they want everything for free, any rational economically minded individual knows they lost that battle the moment their existing good, organization and distribution of competitive starcraft 1 got outdated. The most rational move at this point is to fight tooth and nail for as favorable terms (meaning as little oversight/royalties) for the future and establish a favorable precedent because, lets face it, even if it takes another 10 years, there will still be a SC3, 4 etc. The SC1 days where blizzard got involved too late are over and KeSPA knows it. Right now they're trying to fight for the future. It's a game of chicken and KeSPA knows it eventually has to tap out, but they're pushing as long as they can because after a paradigm is set up with SC2 it will be very difficult to change.
On March 05 2010 04:35 obesechicken13 wrote: They didn't attend because SC2 is "not and will never" already be out on torrent to "not" download. *cough* Bypass activator "not" necessary
edit: mod delete my post if necessary...
There is no Battle.net emulator out yet for Starcraft 2. And even if it was, piracy and bypassing authentication was still illegal in Korea last time I checked. KeSPA have to use Battle.net even if other illegal methods exist.
Kespa = Mafia, Blizzard = Government. Kepsa wants government to have it their way, where they are just building over the system government has created. Welcome to New Jersey ggnore.
South Korea is a signatory / member of multiple treaties, conventions and organizations that establish sophisticated, uniform international standards of IP law. If Blizzard chose to enforce its IP rights in Korea, I have no doubt their rights would be enforced by the courts in Korea. If the Korean courts decided to disregard Blizzard's rights and found for KeSPA, there would likely be severe economic consequences for South Korea.
Zatic raises a complex argument regarding derived content, but it seems he is overthinking; all it would take is a simple copyright complaint / lawsuit to end broadcasts of SC2. I don't think any reasonable court would rule that KeSPA's unlicensed, commercial use of the copyrighted works of Blizzard would constitute "fair use."
On March 04 2010 16:38 Hinanawi wrote: How the hell is KeSPA expecting to win this war? Let's go over what each side has to lose:
Blizzard: -Tiny drop in the bucket of their vast WoW-funded treasury. Everyone will still buy it even if KeSPA cries forever. KeSPA might hurt their profit margins by 0.1%?
KeSPA: -Everything. Oh no, wait, they could try to keep going with only Korean-made games, like Sudden Attack. (LOOOOOOOOOOOOL)
Blizzard isn't going to be KeSPA's bitch over their own game.
Pretty much this. While making SC2 huge on the Korean E-sports scene is something Blizzard wants for various reasons, it's not something they actually need. Success in Korea is fairly irrelevant in the grand scope of what Blizzard is doing.
However KeSPA are completely reliant on the fact that the games they play are popular, If SC2 gets popular and KeSPA doesn't have the right to participate because they were hardballing, then they've completely doomed themselves.
So while both parties would be better off cooperating with eachother, the "war" is completely asymmetrical with KeSPA being the one taking the much, much bigger gamble.
Though since as noted this is something Blizzard really wants, they will probably try to come to some sort of agreement.
On March 05 2010 06:09 sib-pelle wrote: It's probably a lose-lose situation for both
I doubt it. All of the Blizzard franchises have been successful even before Kespa (Warcraft 1 and 2 were both fantastic games). And I'm sure SC2 will sell just as well with or without Kespa endorsing SC2 leagues.
Blizzard has pretty much let Kespa do what they've been doing for years, however, now that they're owned by Activision, I doubt what happened with SC:BW will happen again.
Kespa has everything to lose if the SC:BW scene "dies" because of SC2.
On March 05 2010 06:06 Zironic wrote: However KeSPA are completely reliant on the fact that the games they play are popular, If SC2 gets popular and KeSPA doesn't have the right to participate because they were hardballing, then they've completely doomed themselves.
What are you talking about? Participate in what? Making money for Blizzard with no rights for any profit for themselves? They may as well sit at home, and watch TV if Blizzard will not give them any serious offer.
On March 05 2010 06:06 Zironic wrote:So while both parties would be better off cooperating with eachother, the "war" is completely asymmetrical with KeSPA being the one taking the much, much bigger gamble.
Wrong, they would take a gamble if they would take SC2 with no rights to any profits from it, and hope that blizz would give them money for it. Staying with SC1, and making it harder for SC2 to be a popular esport is playing it safe, and that is the only way that can end with reasonable deal for SC2 esports for them.
You people would get roll over by big companies in no time, good luck in hoping that they will be good for you when they have no legal obligation to do so. lolz
On March 05 2010 03:41 pioneer8 wrote: I'm not sure if the above is true. I believe, in the United States, when you purchase a digital program, like a Starcraft CD-rom, it becomes yours and you may make as many copies of it as you want, do anything with it, as long as you arent making money from it. So, I don't believe that replays are illegal to sell, (if someone ever was to want to buy one lol) but as for live broadcasting it gets complicated.
Nope--in fact Blizzard themselves went to court and got a judge to rule that the End User License Agreement for Starcraft is a binding legal contract, which you agreed to when you installed the game. If you disagree with the terms, you can return the game and ask for a refund. The developers of bnetd were sued for reverse-engineering battle.net, and they lost. In the U.S. at least, you have essentially no rights when it comes to software: you pay for the privilege of being allowed to use software on the publisher's terms.
If there were Starcraft broadcasting the U.S. that Blizzard didn't like for some reason, Blizzard could absolutely get an injunction to stop it and would have a very strong case to shut it down permanently. With Starcraft 2, they will probably word the EULA so it there will be no doubt, and they could shut down unlicensed broadcasting with 100% certainty instead of just 99% (although it would be easier to control through battle.net 2 to begin with).
I disagree with people saying that the Blizzard rep can just snap his fingers and close down KESPA. The game channels and the teams hold alot of power and the teams should exert their dominance and not be conned. I see the slight paranoia about it from Kespa, but they are being realistic, in the business world everyone is looking to f#@$ you over.
In Korea it is much more complicated simply because Activision is American and KeSPA is Korean. Perhaps they couldn't shut down Brood War broadcasting at all. But with SC2, broadcasting against Blizzard's will would probably require some sort of reverse engineering, and even though KeSPA might still win a lawsuit allowing them to do that, they will probably have difficulty finding sponsors for doing something with so much legal liability.
What are you talking about? Participate in what? Making money for Blizzard with no rights for any profit for themselves? They may as well sit at home, and watch TV if Blizzard will not give them any serious offer.
I honestly don't know the specifics of what the intellectual property rights negotiation is and if you do know the specifics it would be nice to be enlightened.
Presumably since Blizzard wants it to be a succesful E-sport not only in Korea, but in the entire world I think it's safe to assume that they are quite willing to make serious offers (Though not necessarily an offer that KeSPA would be happy with, I don't know quite what each sides demands are)
Though the fact remains that if SC2 becomes popular and KeSPA does not have any rights, then they'll probably face bankruptcy since this is their core business.
Wrong, they would take a gamble if they would take SC2 with no rights to any profits from it, and hope that blizz would give them money for it. Staying with SC1, and making it harder for SC2 to be a popular esport is playing it safe, and that is the only way that can end with reasonable deal for SC2 esports for them.
If there is no profit in SC2 then yes trying to make SC2 unviable while pushing SC1 is the only viable option, but I'm not sure this is the case.
If what the OP is saying is true, that is that Blizzard does not recognize KeSPA as a valid entity to negotiate with at all, then KeSPA the organization can only push SC1 and hope for the best, however the individual members of KeSPA will still have the option to choose to abandon the sinking ship and jump over to SC2 if that seems a more profitable move.
You people would get roll over by big companies in no time, good luck in hoping that they will be good for you when they have no legal obligation to do so. lolz
What are you talking about? Participate in what? Making money for Blizzard with no rights for any profit for themselves? They may as well sit at home, and watch TV if Blizzard will not give them any serious offer.
I honestly don't know the specifics of what the intellectual property rights negotiation is and if you do know the specifics it would be nice to be enlightened.
From what we know Blizzard didn't even talk with KeSPA, there is no negotiations so all that they can do is hard-balling.
On March 05 2010 07:54 Zironic wrote:If there is no profit in SC2 then yes trying to make SC2 unviable while pushing SC1 is the only viable option, but I'm not sure this is the case.
There is no profit if Blizzard don't offer them any, and before that happens the only rational thing for them to do is hard-balling with Blizzard. It only shows that they have influence on Korean market, and makes them relevant to Blizzard, it does exactly opposite to what you had suggested, it makes it possible to work for them with Blizzard in future. Why would blizzard hire them if they would all they work for free by promoting SC2 now?
I think kespa is a joke imo. They're prob still pissed off that Blizz got rid of Lan, so now all pro-games hosted go through blizz's servers. Honestly if you're truly a pro-gamer then the best way would be to help make the ESport scene much bigger even if it means swallowing your pride and giving into the man (aka Blizzard). Just remember its not how much money you make in your life that is important its what you can say you did and if u r a pro gamer then your main objective in life should be to be #1 at what you do and to make your sport expand vastly.
On March 05 2010 06:09 sib-pelle wrote: It's probably a lose-lose situation for both
I doubt it. All of the Blizzard franchises have been successful even before Kespa (Warcraft 1 and 2 were both fantastic games). And I'm sure SC2 will sell just as well with or without Kespa endorsing SC2 leagues.
Uhmm, no. Starcraft has been a cash cow for Blizzard since its release. You can still see Starcraft on store shelves today - what other 12 year old game is still on store shelves today?
You totally don't understand Blizzard's objective with SC2. Blizzard recognizes that E-Sports can become mainstream outside of Korea, and they will use SC2 as their flagship product to push E-Sports. If there were pro-leagues world wide playing SC2 like SC1 in Korea, that means lots of $$$ for Blizzard (assuming Blizzard can get a slice of the profit in those leagues).
If SC2 started an E-Sport revolution world wide, that would setup Warcraft 4 as the next major E-Sports game.
"Selling just as well" is not enough. Blizzard wants to start an E-Sport revolution and their base right know is Korea. I guarantee you that when SC2 is about to be released and Blizzard is unable to establish a pro-league for SC2 in Korea, Blizzard will give in to Kespa because having no SC2 pro league at all in the strongest E-Sport base in the world is much worse than a successful SC2 league run by Kespa where Blizzard gets not profits.
Uhmm, no. Starcraft has been a cash cow for Blizzard since its release. You can still see Starcraft on store shelves today - what other 12 year old game is still on store shelves today?
I can still find both Warcraft 2 and Diablo 2 for Sale and they're 15/12 years old respectively (Although WC2 isn't terribly popular)
You totally don't understand Blizzard's objective with SC2. Blizzard recognizes that E-Sports can become mainstream outside of Korea, and they will use SC2 as their flagship product to push E-Sports.
Indeed.
If there were pro-leagues world wide playing SC2 like SC1 in Korea, that means lots of $$$ for Blizzard (assuming Blizzard can get a slice of the profit in those leagues).
I don't think there's much money in that market for them honestly, while it would be nice getting a slice of the E-sport pie, it's my understanding that most E-sport companies are barely solvent, much less vastly profitable, their aim in promoting E-sports is most likely as a way to get more people to buy their games.
If SC2 started an E-Sport revolution world wide, that would setup Warcraft 4 as the next major E-Sports game.
Maybe, to me personally it would be more interesting if they tried something new rather then try to make yet another E-sport title in the same genre.
"Selling just as well" is not enough. Blizzard wants to start an E-Sport revolution and their base right know is Korea. I guarantee you that when SC2 is about to be released and Blizzard is unable to establish a pro-league for SC2 in Korea, Blizzard will give in to Kespa because having no SC2 pro league at all in the strongest E-Sport base in the world is much worse than a successful SC2 league run by Kespa where Blizzard gets not profits.
The question here is, does a strong base in Korea in any way extrapolate to the rest of the world? I think the answer is probably no. Getting the Koreans on board would be a cool badge of honor and proof that they managed to make a better game then the "holy" SC:BW but ultimately the worldwide success depends much more on if they're capable of launching western pro-leagues.
I dont understand why the korean teams would do this? I guess i can understand the 'power' thing, but its not like their discussing some new tounament or threating KeSPA's buisness or something like that, blizzard was just being kind enough to give them all free starcraft 2 beta keys. The fact that the proteams shunned Blizz because they "didnt go through KeSPA" is really just immature. If someone wanted to give a football athlete a prize, they shouldnt have to go through the NFL just to give them a gift.
KeSPA needs to grow up and not bite the hand that feeds them.
On March 05 2010 09:00 Zironic wrote: The question here is, does a strong base in Korea in any way extrapolate to the rest of the world? I think the answer is probably no. Getting the Koreans on board would be a cool badge of honor and proof that they managed to make a better game then the "holy" SC:BW but ultimately the worldwide success depends much more on if they're capable of launching western pro-leagues.
The strongest base they could get is of course, a pro-league in the US. However, there is no guarantee that will happen. Heck, there is no guarantee of a SC2 pro-league - for all we know, SC2 may fail as an E-Sport. Korea isn't a a great base, but it's all they have - that's why I think Blizzard will ultimately blink and give in to Kespa because it would be stupid of Blizzard to ruin the only pro-league base it has world wide.
What would help Blizzard is if SC2 took off in the Pro-Leagues in Korea, entrepreneurs in the US see the potential for SC2 as an E-Sport. This is why I think Blizzard would be really stupid if they shut down Kespa - if SC2 isn't successful as a Pro-League in Korea, there is no way businessmen in the US will jump on the bandwagon. Korea needs to set an example of what is possible for other countries. If the top executives at Blizzard have their heads screwed on right, they will give in to Kespa by the launch of SC2 because a failure of the pro-leagues with SC2 in Korea signals to other businessmen in the US and elsewhere to stay away from E-Sports.
On March 05 2010 06:01 Number41 wrote: South Korea is a signatory / member of multiple treaties, conventions and organizations that establish sophisticated, uniform international standards of IP law. If Blizzard chose to enforce its IP rights in Korea, I have no doubt their rights would be enforced by the courts in Korea. If the Korean courts decided to disregard Blizzard's rights and found for KeSPA, there would likely be severe economic consequences for South Korea.
Asian courts rarely rule against foreign companies. Even when they do, getting the ruling enforced is often impossible.
And apparently it will be televised as well. Maybe we were jumping to conclusions about the whole Kespa and Blizzard thing... maybe someone will take the scene over if Kespa doesn't get there first.
On March 05 2010 06:01 Number41 wrote: Zatic raises a complex argument regarding derived content, but it seems he is overthinking; all it would take is a simple copyright complaint / lawsuit to end broadcasts of SC2. I don't think any reasonable court would rule that KeSPA's unlicensed, commercial use of the copyrighted works of Blizzard would constitute "fair use."
No this is exactly what I said. The "best" they can hope for is shut it all down - something that isn't in their interest at all, and might still draw them into a long and costly legal fight, which is why they won't do it.
Blizzard doesn't need KeSPA to generate profits, since regardless of any outcome, Blizzard will profit from starcraft2 sales. People in korea didn't buy copies of starcraft because they saw it on TV played by progamers, the huge amount of sales in korea and play led it to being on TV. Regardless of whether SC2 is broadcasted on tv, blizzard will sell similiar amounts of copies in korea.
The issue at stake is the future of E-Sports rather than blizzard vs Kespa. Anyone thinking Blizzard can magically create an E-sports paradigm with no prior experience has to be kidding themselves. Regardless of whether you dislike Kespa, they have created a profitable platform that works for the viewers, players and sponsors.
Look at E-sports outside Kespa, and tell me how it is thriving. Besides a few players , a few leagues there is very little media interest. How many warcraft players command a decent salary? How many games outside Kespa sanctioned games get weekly TV shows?
Warcraft failed in korea , not only because of lack of interest , but being managed horribly by people with little experience in gaming.
When companies deal with Kespa they take them seriously because they are backed and sponsored by the korean government. They have the freedom to put out a format rather than one totally imposed by the media companies.
Anyone who thinks starcraft2 has the potential to become an E-sports outside korea has to be kidding themselves. It took a long time in korea even with its popularity for a career in starcraft to be taken seriously. But because they have the backing of the korean government, it's no longer just a hobby , but an extended branch of the korean government catering to E-Sports.
Can you see ANY countries where the government gets directly involved to fund the future of gaming outside korea? No doubt there are going to be quite a few well paid semi pros of starcraft2 outside korea, but I am not questioning whether a few people will profit from this much like warcraft3 players. I am questioning whether starcraft2 can become the new E-sports platform, something blizzard is aiming for.
Kespa like it or not operates the ONLY e-sports platform that works regardless of any criticism. Any joe bloe can suggest that they could create a better model, but I rather trust a proven formula of success rather than someones opinion of whether a better platform can be created. If E-sports is to come about in the next 10years in the west, the foundations has to be laid now.
Kespa without starcraft2 to revitalize it will die a slow death , while Blizzard hoping to create the first "real" international e-sports game will fail to leave its mark on history without the experience of Kespa.
I just sincerely hope , both come to an agreement about media revenue sharing since the only way I see E-sports working in the future is if KeSPA and Blizzard work together instead of going seperate ways.
On March 05 2010 08:41 StarcraftMan wrote: "Selling just as well" is not enough. Blizzard wants to start an E-Sport revolution and their base right know is Korea. I guarantee you that when SC2 is about to be released and Blizzard is unable to establish a pro-league for SC2 in Korea, Blizzard will give in to Kespa because having no SC2 pro league at all in the strongest E-Sport base in the world is much worse than a successful SC2 league run by Kespa where Blizzard gets not profits.
Why is it that having no pro teams in Korea is worse for Blizzard than not getting money for it? Yes, they have said that e-sports is a large focus of SC2, but that is likely more of a design goal than a business goal. Dustin Browder is not the one negotiating with KeSPA here; it is Activision executives. They don't give a fuck if pro teams exist or not, unless it means that their company is getting more money. It's their job to make the most money for the company, and they don't care what any community thinks unless it has an impact on sales.
On March 05 2010 08:41 StarcraftMan wrote: "Selling just as well" is not enough. Blizzard wants to start an E-Sport revolution and their base right know is Korea. I guarantee you that when SC2 is about to be released and Blizzard is unable to establish a pro-league for SC2 in Korea, Blizzard will give in to Kespa because having no SC2 pro league at all in the strongest E-Sport base in the world is much worse than a successful SC2 league run by Kespa where Blizzard gets not profits.
Why is it that having no pro teams in Korea is worse for Blizzard than not getting money for it? Yes, they have said that e-sports is a large focus of SC2, but that is likely more of a design goal than a business goal. Dustin Browder is not the one negotiating with KeSPA here; it is Activision executives. They don't give a fuck if pro teams exist or not, unless it means that their company is getting more money. It's their job to make the most money for the company, and they don't care what any community thinks unless it has an impact on sales.
4.5 mln copies of SC sold in Korea, esport had influenced that for sure, or do you believe that so much exposure in TV for your game don't influence sells?
Why is it that having no pro teams in Korea is worse for Blizzard than not getting money for it? Yes, they have said that e-sports is a large focus of SC2, but that is likely more of a design goal than a business goal. Dustin Browder is not the one negotiating with KeSPA here; it is Activision executives. They don't give a fuck if pro teams exist or not, unless it means that their company is getting more money. It's their job to make the most money for the company, and they don't care what any community thinks unless it has an impact on sales.
Other then the fact Activision is not the ones controlling Blizzard (Both Activision and Blizzard are a subdivision of Vivendi) you're fairly correct, as a company they don't care about E-Sport as a Sport. Rather E-Sport has the potential to be a very efficient advertising machine for the game, boosting sales, about 42% of all Starcraft sales have been in Korea and that is most likely because the E-sport is just such a good advertising machine and from Blizzards side it's really really cheap too. Paying $30,000 in prices once a year is a trivial amount compared to the millions they spend in advertising each year.
And apparently it will be televised as well. Maybe we were jumping to conclusions about the whole Kespa and Blizzard thing... maybe someone will take the scene over if Kespa doesn't get there first.
When will this be? and will it be streamed and where?
On March 05 2010 08:41 StarcraftMan wrote: "Selling just as well" is not enough. Blizzard wants to start an E-Sport revolution and their base right know is Korea. I guarantee you that when SC2 is about to be released and Blizzard is unable to establish a pro-league for SC2 in Korea, Blizzard will give in to Kespa because having no SC2 pro league at all in the strongest E-Sport base in the world is much worse than a successful SC2 league run by Kespa where Blizzard gets not profits.
Why is it that having no pro teams in Korea is worse for Blizzard than not getting money for it? Yes, they have said that e-sports is a large focus of SC2, but that is likely more of a design goal than a business goal. Dustin Browder is not the one negotiating with KeSPA here; it is Activision executives. They don't give a fuck if pro teams exist or not, unless it means that their company is getting more money. It's their job to make the most money for the company, and they don't care what any community thinks unless it has an impact on sales.
4.5 mln copies of SC sold in Korea, esport had influenced that for sure, or do you believe that so much exposure in TV for your game don't influence sells?
I apologize, my post wasn't clear. I know that it will have some influence on sales, but one would also assume that SC:BW on TV would similarly influence SC2 sales (though to a lesser extent). To clarify, I was attempting to point out that, it is almost entirely a business decision. Our view of the Korean pro scene is much different than that of a business executive, and if it means taking the risk of a moderately small loss in sales in exchange for the potential of hugely increased profits, then I'm sure most executives would take that risk. From StarcraftMan's post, I inferred that he believed that Blizzard had a huge stake to lose if they did not come to an agreement with KeSPA, almost as if SC2 would not be a success overall if it is not a successful e-sport. I was simply trying to point out that, those negotiating with KeSPA will not judge success on whether or not SC2 is a successful e-sport, but rather on the revenue that it generates for Activision.
edit: It was pointed out that Activision and Blizzard are owned by Vivendi, rather than Activision owning Blizzard, I apologize for this misunderstanding, but I believe the general ideas in my post remains unchanged by this fact.
On March 06 2010 01:30 TestSubject893 wrote: [ From StarcraftMan's post, I inferred that he believed that Blizzard had a huge stake to lose if they did not come to an agreement with KeSPA, almost as if SC2 would not be a success overall if it is not a successful e-sport. I was simply trying to point out that, those negotiating with KeSPA will not judge success on whether or not SC2 is a successful e-sport, but rather on the revenue that it generates for Activision.
But deal with KeSPA =/= no direct income from esports in Korea for Blizzard, it means that they would have to share it, organization will alweys cost money with KeSPA or without it.
On March 06 2010 01:30 TestSubject893 wrote: I was simply trying to point out that, those negotiating with KeSPA will not judge success on whether or not SC2 is a successful e-sport, but rather on the revenue that it generates for Activision.
Revenue from what? Who would finance leagues/teams with no rights to profit for them? Blizzard know nothing about Korean esports it would not be easy for them to organize it, and it would likely cost them more then it is worth to avoid dealing with KeSPA.
It's true that Kespa has a lot more to lose than Blizzard. Blizzard has its WoW cash cow, and they'll still sell millions of SC2 copies even without any proscene. They just won't be able to reliably milk it in the long term like they seem to want to do with all of their franchises. Kespa, on the other hand, will stagnate if it sticks with SCBW and torpedoes SC2 -- they need the game to rekindle interest in progaming. So, although they probably do have the muscle to prevent the game from succeeding in Korea if they don't negotiate satisfactory terms with Blizzard (people forget that they're an official, government-recognized body), it will hurt them a lot more than it hurts Blizzard.
That's why I doubt the doomsday scenarios will come to pass.
On March 06 2010 02:53 snowdrift86 wrote: It's true that Kespa has a lot more to lose than Blizzard. Blizzard has its WoW cash cow, and they'll still sell millions of SC2 copies even without any proscene. They just won't be able to reliably milk it in the long term like they seem to want to do with all of their franchises. Kespa, on the other hand, will stagnate if it sticks with SCBW and torpedoes SC2 -- they need the game to rekindle interest in progaming. So, although they probably do have the muscle to prevent the game from succeeding if they don't negotiate satisfactory terms with Blizzard (people forget that they're an official, government-recognized body), it will hurt them a lot more than it hurts Blizzard.
That's why I doubt the doomsday scenarios will come to pass.
SC2 will be part of e-sport. It's just a matter of who will give in first. The $$ of blizzard or the player-controlling-power of kespa
On March 06 2010 01:30 TestSubject893 wrote: [ From StarcraftMan's post, I inferred that he believed that Blizzard had a huge stake to lose if they did not come to an agreement with KeSPA, almost as if SC2 would not be a success overall if it is not a successful e-sport. I was simply trying to point out that, those negotiating with KeSPA will not judge success on whether or not SC2 is a successful e-sport, but rather on the revenue that it generates for Activision.
But deal with KeSPA =/= no direct income from esports in Korea for Blizzard, it means that they would have to share it, organization will alweys cost money with KeSPA or without it.
On March 06 2010 01:30 TestSubject893 wrote: I was simply trying to point out that, those negotiating with KeSPA will not judge success on whether or not SC2 is a successful e-sport, but rather on the revenue that it generates for Activision.
Revenue from what? Who would finance leagues/teams with no rights to profit for them? Blizzard know nothing about Korean esports it would not be easy for them to organize it, and it would likely cost them more then it is worth to avoid dealing with KeSPA.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but, the way I am reading it, you seem be implying that the only two options are Blizzard gets all the money from the pro scene or KeSPA gets all the money from the pro scene. I believe that most negotiations tend to end with at least a small amount of compromise and therefore the answer to your question "Revenue from what?" is from the pro scene. I'm sure that leagues would still be able to function while paying royalties to Blizzard, and even allowing Blizzard to have some shared control over them.
I think that what you guys are missing is the fact that even if Kespa agrees to Blizzard's terms and follows their rules, they will still be making good money. Because of that, in the end, they'll go through with it. This is just Kespa trying to get more money. Why? Because that's just what businesses do. Better for them to try their luck and then give up later than not try at all. But with Blizzard already having deals with MLG and presumably European organizations like ESL later on, Kespa needs Blizzard more than Blizzard needs Kespa.
On March 06 2010 03:31 TestSubject893 wrote:Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but, the way I am reading it, you seem be implying that the only two options are Blizzard gets all the money from the pro scene or KeSPA gets all the money from the pro scene.
No that is why I had written: But deal with KeSPA =/= no direct income from esports in Korea for Blizzard.
What I think is that Blizzard will take all the money if KeSPA will not get contract before it will start to promote SC2.
On March 06 2010 03:31 TestSubject893 wrote:I believe that most negotiations tend to end with at least a small amount of compromise and therefore the answer to your question "Revenue from what?" is from the pro scene. I'm sure that leagues would still be able to function while paying royalties to Blizzard, and even allowing Blizzard to have some shared control over them.
The problem is that KeSPA can't organize SC2 scene before they will have a contract with Blizzard. Without contract you don't know how much Blizzard will want, two scenarios: 1)SC2 fail you will just loose money. 2)SC2 esport will success you will make very little because Blizzard can take as much as it would like. You may even make nothing becouse Blizzard could decide to run they own leagues now when SC2 is popular.
For those reasons you can't work without any contract.
I really wonder what people mean when they say that Blizzard "owns" SC2.
In my opinion that just means that you have to buy a copy of SC2 when you want to play it.
Why this means Blizzard automatically must be payed license fees when you want to broadcast an SC2 game on TV, I have no clue. With the same reasoning you could say that when broadcasting SC2, Microsoft should get payed (because you are running the SC2 on "their" Operating System), Intel or AMD should get payed (because you are running the game on "their" CPU). The same reasoning says that if you have a race with real cars and you want to broadcast it via TV, you have to pay BMW,Porsche,Ferrari,etc. because you drive "their" cars in the race.
It all comes down to the question what "own" means. I really do not like the idea that Blizzard "owning" SC2 means that they are allowed to have absolute control over anything which is done with this game. When I buy a car I also expect that from the point on I bought the car I MYSELF can decide what to do with it and not the car manufacturer. That is also the reason why I absolutely puke at the fact that SC2 seems to require an internet connection and the battle.net server to play the game together with other players. It means that I will never be able to play SC2 with friends at home without an internet connection, just because Blizzards does not want me to do that. It's like buying a car and in the fine print it says: If you intend to drive the car off-road, please contact the car manufacturer for permission first. Horrible idea.
lundril, you do not "buy" SC2. You "buy" a license to install a copy of SC2. This gives you certain rights to use the SC2 software personally, but other rights are still reserved by Blizzard. This is what copyright is all about.
For example, when you buy a book, you are not allowed to copy it and sell it to others. When you buy a DVD, you are not allowed to play it in your own theater and charge admission. When you buy a license of a game, well... it's a legal gray area as to whether you can broadcast public displays of that game w/o an additional license agreement.
It is a fallacy to compare copyright laws with property laws. They are not the same thing at all.
"Blizzard's treatment of the teams as individual entities could be an effort to undermine their unity on that issue."
retards, seriously
how do they come to the conclusion that the developer of a game THAT IS BASICALLY RELYING ON THOSE GAMERS SUPPORT is trying to undermine what is basically the players union
dumb, dumb, dumb
whoever wrote it should be punched in the face then buried in a bush somewhere. horrible, insipid reporting.
ungood: yes I understand what the license from Blizzard says. I also understand what the license for Microsoft Windows says. Does the license from MS Windows state that you are allowed to broadcast anything which runs on MS Windows. If not, why do you think that you do not need to pay Microsoft when broadcasting SC1 or SC2 or whatever ? Would you like it if you would have to pay a fee to Adobe for each published picture which was produced with Photoshop ? My question is simply why everybody seems to accept this "you just buy a license but nothing else" motto ? After all the Software Companies do not take on ANY kind of responsibility when their software damages your computer (this is also what their license says), or if the software does not work as expected (again what the license says). So basically you "buy" almost nothing and the SW companies even do not make any kind of warranty about what you bought.
About license texts in general: Just because the license says something does NOT make it legally binding. For example in Germany it is allowed (or at least was allowed - maybe it changed) to sell the original CD/DVD for a game as long as you did destroy all copies of it you had, even if the license texts basically forbid that. (Court ruled that this kind of license rules are not applicable, because they clash with other laws.) Obviously that is different in the US (you say that you are not allowed to sell a book. In Germany you are allowed to do that.)
Does the license from MS Windows state that you are allowed to broadcast anything which runs on MS Windows. If not, why do you think that you do not need to pay Microsoft when broadcasting SC1 or SC2 or whatever ?
EPT
![[image loading]](http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/File:DustinBrowder_Real1.jpg)
