EPTPro-game teams snub Blizzard? - Page 14
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sib-pelle
Sweden162 Posts
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Gnabgib
United States381 Posts
On March 05 2010 06:09 sib-pelle wrote: It's probably a lose-lose situation for both I doubt it. All of the Blizzard franchises have been successful even before Kespa (Warcraft 1 and 2 were both fantastic games). And I'm sure SC2 will sell just as well with or without Kespa endorsing SC2 leagues. Blizzard has pretty much let Kespa do what they've been doing for years, however, now that they're owned by Activision, I doubt what happened with SC:BW will happen again. Kespa has everything to lose if the SC:BW scene "dies" because of SC2. edit: got my game companies and mergers confused. | ||
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Polis
Poland1292 Posts
On March 05 2010 06:06 Zironic wrote: However KeSPA are completely reliant on the fact that the games they play are popular, If SC2 gets popular and KeSPA doesn't have the right to participate because they were hardballing, then they've completely doomed themselves. What are you talking about? Participate in what? Making money for Blizzard with no rights for any profit for themselves? They may as well sit at home, and watch TV if Blizzard will not give them any serious offer. On March 05 2010 06:06 Zironic wrote:So while both parties would be better off cooperating with eachother, the "war" is completely asymmetrical with KeSPA being the one taking the much, much bigger gamble. Wrong, they would take a gamble if they would take SC2 with no rights to any profits from it, and hope that blizz would give them money for it. Staying with SC1, and making it harder for SC2 to be a popular esport is playing it safe, and that is the only way that can end with reasonable deal for SC2 esports for them. You people would get roll over by big companies in no time, good luck in hoping that they will be good for you when they have no legal obligation to do so. lolz | ||
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HunterX11
United States1048 Posts
On March 05 2010 03:41 pioneer8 wrote: I'm not sure if the above is true. I believe, in the United States, when you purchase a digital program, like a Starcraft CD-rom, it becomes yours and you may make as many copies of it as you want, do anything with it, as long as you arent making money from it. So, I don't believe that replays are illegal to sell, (if someone ever was to want to buy one lol) but as for live broadcasting it gets complicated. Nope--in fact Blizzard themselves went to court and got a judge to rule that the End User License Agreement for Starcraft is a binding legal contract, which you agreed to when you installed the game. If you disagree with the terms, you can return the game and ask for a refund. The developers of bnetd were sued for reverse-engineering battle.net, and they lost. In the U.S. at least, you have essentially no rights when it comes to software: you pay for the privilege of being allowed to use software on the publisher's terms. If there were Starcraft broadcasting the U.S. that Blizzard didn't like for some reason, Blizzard could absolutely get an injunction to stop it and would have a very strong case to shut it down permanently. With Starcraft 2, they will probably word the EULA so it there will be no doubt, and they could shut down unlicensed broadcasting with 100% certainty instead of just 99% (although it would be easier to control through battle.net 2 to begin with). I disagree with people saying that the Blizzard rep can just snap his fingers and close down KESPA. The game channels and the teams hold alot of power and the teams should exert their dominance and not be conned. I see the slight paranoia about it from Kespa, but they are being realistic, in the business world everyone is looking to f#@$ you over. In Korea it is much more complicated simply because Activision is American and KeSPA is Korean. Perhaps they couldn't shut down Brood War broadcasting at all. But with SC2, broadcasting against Blizzard's will would probably require some sort of reverse engineering, and even though KeSPA might still win a lawsuit allowing them to do that, they will probably have difficulty finding sponsors for doing something with so much legal liability. | ||
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
What are you talking about? Participate in what? Making money for Blizzard with no rights for any profit for themselves? They may as well sit at home, and watch TV if Blizzard will not give them any serious offer. I honestly don't know the specifics of what the intellectual property rights negotiation is and if you do know the specifics it would be nice to be enlightened. Presumably since Blizzard wants it to be a succesful E-sport not only in Korea, but in the entire world I think it's safe to assume that they are quite willing to make serious offers (Though not necessarily an offer that KeSPA would be happy with, I don't know quite what each sides demands are) Though the fact remains that if SC2 becomes popular and KeSPA does not have any rights, then they'll probably face bankruptcy since this is their core business. Wrong, they would take a gamble if they would take SC2 with no rights to any profits from it, and hope that blizz would give them money for it. Staying with SC1, and making it harder for SC2 to be a popular esport is playing it safe, and that is the only way that can end with reasonable deal for SC2 esports for them. If there is no profit in SC2 then yes trying to make SC2 unviable while pushing SC1 is the only viable option, but I'm not sure this is the case. If what the OP is saying is true, that is that Blizzard does not recognize KeSPA as a valid entity to negotiate with at all, then KeSPA the organization can only push SC1 and hope for the best, however the individual members of KeSPA will still have the option to choose to abandon the sinking ship and jump over to SC2 if that seems a more profitable move. You people would get roll over by big companies in no time, good luck in hoping that they will be good for you when they have no legal obligation to do so. lolz I have no idea what you're trying to say. | ||
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Polis
Poland1292 Posts
On March 05 2010 07:54 Zironic wrote: I honestly don't know the specifics of what the intellectual property rights negotiation is and if you do know the specifics it would be nice to be enlightened. From what we know Blizzard didn't even talk with KeSPA, there is no negotiations so all that they can do is hard-balling. On March 05 2010 07:54 Zironic wrote:If there is no profit in SC2 then yes trying to make SC2 unviable while pushing SC1 is the only viable option, but I'm not sure this is the case. There is no profit if Blizzard don't offer them any, and before that happens the only rational thing for them to do is hard-balling with Blizzard. It only shows that they have influence on Korean market, and makes them relevant to Blizzard, it does exactly opposite to what you had suggested, it makes it possible to work for them with Blizzard in future. Why would blizzard hire them if they would all they work for free by promoting SC2 now? | ||
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On March 05 2010 07:35 Gnabgib wrote: I doubt it. All of the Blizzard franchises have been successful even before Kespa (Warcraft 1 and 2 were both fantastic games). And I'm sure SC2 will sell just as well with or without Kespa endorsing SC2 leagues. Uhmm, no. Starcraft has been a cash cow for Blizzard since its release. You can still see Starcraft on store shelves today - what other 12 year old game is still on store shelves today? You totally don't understand Blizzard's objective with SC2. Blizzard recognizes that E-Sports can become mainstream outside of Korea, and they will use SC2 as their flagship product to push E-Sports. If there were pro-leagues world wide playing SC2 like SC1 in Korea, that means lots of $$$ for Blizzard (assuming Blizzard can get a slice of the profit in those leagues). If SC2 started an E-Sport revolution world wide, that would setup Warcraft 4 as the next major E-Sports game. "Selling just as well" is not enough. Blizzard wants to start an E-Sport revolution and their base right know is Korea. I guarantee you that when SC2 is about to be released and Blizzard is unable to establish a pro-league for SC2 in Korea, Blizzard will give in to Kespa because having no SC2 pro league at all in the strongest E-Sport base in the world is much worse than a successful SC2 league run by Kespa where Blizzard gets not profits. | ||
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
Uhmm, no. Starcraft has been a cash cow for Blizzard since its release. You can still see Starcraft on store shelves today - what other 12 year old game is still on store shelves today? I can still find both Warcraft 2 and Diablo 2 for Sale and they're 15/12 years old respectively (Although WC2 isn't terribly popular) You totally don't understand Blizzard's objective with SC2. Blizzard recognizes that E-Sports can become mainstream outside of Korea, and they will use SC2 as their flagship product to push E-Sports. Indeed. If there were pro-leagues world wide playing SC2 like SC1 in Korea, that means lots of $$$ for Blizzard (assuming Blizzard can get a slice of the profit in those leagues). I don't think there's much money in that market for them honestly, while it would be nice getting a slice of the E-sport pie, it's my understanding that most E-sport companies are barely solvent, much less vastly profitable, their aim in promoting E-sports is most likely as a way to get more people to buy their games. If SC2 started an E-Sport revolution world wide, that would setup Warcraft 4 as the next major E-Sports game. Maybe, to me personally it would be more interesting if they tried something new rather then try to make yet another E-sport title in the same genre. "Selling just as well" is not enough. Blizzard wants to start an E-Sport revolution and their base right know is Korea. I guarantee you that when SC2 is about to be released and Blizzard is unable to establish a pro-league for SC2 in Korea, Blizzard will give in to Kespa because having no SC2 pro league at all in the strongest E-Sport base in the world is much worse than a successful SC2 league run by Kespa where Blizzard gets not profits. The question here is, does a strong base in Korea in any way extrapolate to the rest of the world? I think the answer is probably no. Getting the Koreans on board would be a cool badge of honor and proof that they managed to make a better game then the "holy" SC:BW but ultimately the worldwide success depends much more on if they're capable of launching western pro-leagues. | ||
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NotGood-
United States134 Posts
KeSPA needs to grow up and not bite the hand that feeds them. | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On March 05 2010 09:00 Zironic wrote: The question here is, does a strong base in Korea in any way extrapolate to the rest of the world? I think the answer is probably no. Getting the Koreans on board would be a cool badge of honor and proof that they managed to make a better game then the "holy" SC:BW but ultimately the worldwide success depends much more on if they're capable of launching western pro-leagues. The strongest base they could get is of course, a pro-league in the US. However, there is no guarantee that will happen. Heck, there is no guarantee of a SC2 pro-league - for all we know, SC2 may fail as an E-Sport. Korea isn't a a great base, but it's all they have - that's why I think Blizzard will ultimately blink and give in to Kespa because it would be stupid of Blizzard to ruin the only pro-league base it has world wide. What would help Blizzard is if SC2 took off in the Pro-Leagues in Korea, entrepreneurs in the US see the potential for SC2 as an E-Sport. This is why I think Blizzard would be really stupid if they shut down Kespa - if SC2 isn't successful as a Pro-League in Korea, there is no way businessmen in the US will jump on the bandwagon. Korea needs to set an example of what is possible for other countries. If the top executives at Blizzard have their heads screwed on right, they will give in to Kespa by the launch of SC2 because a failure of the pro-leagues with SC2 in Korea signals to other businessmen in the US and elsewhere to stay away from E-Sports. | ||
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
On March 05 2010 06:01 Number41 wrote: South Korea is a signatory / member of multiple treaties, conventions and organizations that establish sophisticated, uniform international standards of IP law. If Blizzard chose to enforce its IP rights in Korea, I have no doubt their rights would be enforced by the courts in Korea. If the Korean courts decided to disregard Blizzard's rights and found for KeSPA, there would likely be severe economic consequences for South Korea. Asian courts rarely rule against foreign companies. Even when they do, getting the ruling enforced is often impossible. | ||
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squ1d
United States178 Posts
Just found out that PlayXP will be hosting the first Korean SC2 tournament, here are the players: 1) PainKiller 2) ZenioWeRRa 3) Hyo 4) Thanaoss 5) isskin 6) Arena 7) ChangDuSeop 8) kkong Source: http://playxp.com/sc2/ And apparently it will be televised as well. Maybe we were jumping to conclusions about the whole Kespa and Blizzard thing... maybe someone will take the scene over if Kespa doesn't get there first. | ||
zatic
Zurich15306 Posts
On March 05 2010 06:01 Number41 wrote: Zatic raises a complex argument regarding derived content, but it seems he is overthinking; all it would take is a simple copyright complaint / lawsuit to end broadcasts of SC2. I don't think any reasonable court would rule that KeSPA's unlicensed, commercial use of the copyrighted works of Blizzard would constitute "fair use." No this is exactly what I said. The "best" they can hope for is shut it all down - something that isn't in their interest at all, and might still draw them into a long and costly legal fight, which is why they won't do it. | ||
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pacifican
4 Posts
The issue at stake is the future of E-Sports rather than blizzard vs Kespa. Anyone thinking Blizzard can magically create an E-sports paradigm with no prior experience has to be kidding themselves. Regardless of whether you dislike Kespa, they have created a profitable platform that works for the viewers, players and sponsors. Look at E-sports outside Kespa, and tell me how it is thriving. Besides a few players , a few leagues there is very little media interest. How many warcraft players command a decent salary? How many games outside Kespa sanctioned games get weekly TV shows? Warcraft failed in korea , not only because of lack of interest , but being managed horribly by people with little experience in gaming. When companies deal with Kespa they take them seriously because they are backed and sponsored by the korean government. They have the freedom to put out a format rather than one totally imposed by the media companies. Anyone who thinks starcraft2 has the potential to become an E-sports outside korea has to be kidding themselves. It took a long time in korea even with its popularity for a career in starcraft to be taken seriously. But because they have the backing of the korean government, it's no longer just a hobby , but an extended branch of the korean government catering to E-Sports. Can you see ANY countries where the government gets directly involved to fund the future of gaming outside korea? No doubt there are going to be quite a few well paid semi pros of starcraft2 outside korea, but I am not questioning whether a few people will profit from this much like warcraft3 players. I am questioning whether starcraft2 can become the new E-sports platform, something blizzard is aiming for. Kespa like it or not operates the ONLY e-sports platform that works regardless of any criticism. Any joe bloe can suggest that they could create a better model, but I rather trust a proven formula of success rather than someones opinion of whether a better platform can be created. If E-sports is to come about in the next 10years in the west, the foundations has to be laid now. Kespa without starcraft2 to revitalize it will die a slow death , while Blizzard hoping to create the first "real" international e-sports game will fail to leave its mark on history without the experience of Kespa. I just sincerely hope , both come to an agreement about media revenue sharing since the only way I see E-sports working in the future is if KeSPA and Blizzard work together instead of going seperate ways. | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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TestSubject893
United States774 Posts
On March 05 2010 08:41 StarcraftMan wrote: "Selling just as well" is not enough. Blizzard wants to start an E-Sport revolution and their base right know is Korea. I guarantee you that when SC2 is about to be released and Blizzard is unable to establish a pro-league for SC2 in Korea, Blizzard will give in to Kespa because having no SC2 pro league at all in the strongest E-Sport base in the world is much worse than a successful SC2 league run by Kespa where Blizzard gets not profits. Why is it that having no pro teams in Korea is worse for Blizzard than not getting money for it? Yes, they have said that e-sports is a large focus of SC2, but that is likely more of a design goal than a business goal. Dustin Browder is not the one negotiating with KeSPA here; it is Activision executives. They don't give a fuck if pro teams exist or not, unless it means that their company is getting more money. It's their job to make the most money for the company, and they don't care what any community thinks unless it has an impact on sales. | ||
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Polis
Poland1292 Posts
On March 06 2010 01:09 TestSubject893 wrote: Why is it that having no pro teams in Korea is worse for Blizzard than not getting money for it? Yes, they have said that e-sports is a large focus of SC2, but that is likely more of a design goal than a business goal. Dustin Browder is not the one negotiating with KeSPA here; it is Activision executives. They don't give a fuck if pro teams exist or not, unless it means that their company is getting more money. It's their job to make the most money for the company, and they don't care what any community thinks unless it has an impact on sales. 4.5 mln copies of SC sold in Korea, esport had influenced that for sure, or do you believe that so much exposure in TV for your game don't influence sells? | ||
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
Why is it that having no pro teams in Korea is worse for Blizzard than not getting money for it? Yes, they have said that e-sports is a large focus of SC2, but that is likely more of a design goal than a business goal. Dustin Browder is not the one negotiating with KeSPA here; it is Activision executives. They don't give a fuck if pro teams exist or not, unless it means that their company is getting more money. It's their job to make the most money for the company, and they don't care what any community thinks unless it has an impact on sales. Other then the fact Activision is not the ones controlling Blizzard (Both Activision and Blizzard are a subdivision of Vivendi) you're fairly correct, as a company they don't care about E-Sport as a Sport. Rather E-Sport has the potential to be a very efficient advertising machine for the game, boosting sales, about 42% of all Starcraft sales have been in Korea and that is most likely because the E-sport is just such a good advertising machine and from Blizzards side it's really really cheap too. Paying $30,000 in prices once a year is a trivial amount compared to the millions they spend in advertising each year. | ||
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zee
201 Posts
On March 05 2010 18:21 squ1d wrote: Hey, Just found out that PlayXP will be hosting the first Korean SC2 tournament, here are the players: 1) PainKiller 2) ZenioWeRRa 3) Hyo 4) Thanaoss 5) isskin 6) Arena 7) ChangDuSeop 8) kkong Source: http://playxp.com/sc2/ And apparently it will be televised as well. Maybe we were jumping to conclusions about the whole Kespa and Blizzard thing... maybe someone will take the scene over if Kespa doesn't get there first. When will this be? and will it be streamed and where? | ||
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