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On January 09 2013 06:08 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 06:00 Noocta wrote:On January 09 2013 05:49 LavaLava wrote:Widow Mine should really have been on the poll. Tank damage versus Light is sitting at a very particular spot, where if you change it up or down it ruins the dynamic with Lings... and if you make it good enough to survive Chargelots, you completely slaughter Marines, lings, and several other units. I posted this thread on Reddit a while ago. It explains pretty well why the only smart and easy way to make Mech work is to actually give the Widow Mine some version of Concussive Shells, while playing around with the damage numbers. Read the thread, you'll probably agree with me that it's the only/best option short of a huge game redesign. Tanks full damage to shield It's pretty simple really Except I'm not sure if that's the type of change Blizzard will ever make. I'm sure that would be filed under "unintuitive" and they may have even stated that in the past.
The Hellion transforms in to a unit with more HP and changes from mechanical to mechanical-biological, the Void Ray in Wing has like 3 attack types, Snipe is the only attack with +to psionic . So cumbersome solutions are a core part of Blizzard balance.
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On January 09 2013 06:14 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 06:08 LavaLava wrote:On January 09 2013 06:00 Noocta wrote:On January 09 2013 05:49 LavaLava wrote:Widow Mine should really have been on the poll. Tank damage versus Light is sitting at a very particular spot, where if you change it up or down it ruins the dynamic with Lings... and if you make it good enough to survive Chargelots, you completely slaughter Marines, lings, and several other units. I posted this thread on Reddit a while ago. It explains pretty well why the only smart and easy way to make Mech work is to actually give the Widow Mine some version of Concussive Shells, while playing around with the damage numbers. Read the thread, you'll probably agree with me that it's the only/best option short of a huge game redesign. Tanks full damage to shield It's pretty simple really Except I'm not sure if that's the type of change Blizzard will ever make. I'm sure that would be filed under "unintuitive" and they may have even stated that in the past. The Hellion transforms in to a unit with more HP and changes from mechanical to mechanical-biological, the Void Ray in Wing has like 3 attack types, Snipe is the only attack with +to psionic . So cumbersome solutions are a core part of Blizzard balance.
Blizzard won't make the "full damage to shield" though, because that wouldn't make sense with DB's comments that ghosts should be a neccesity along with mech. (emp would kinda be semi-useless then).
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On January 09 2013 05:22 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +We are not trying to create a "Factory Only" option for Terrans in this match up that works in every game on every map all the time So they are fine with 'barracks only' bio solution on all maps, but they won't allow 'factory only'. The hell?
"We want all Factory to be useful sometimes and all Barracks to be useful sometimes and a mix to also have a place. "
So in the next sentence they say they want all of either to be useful "sometimes" they don't seem to like the prevalence of bio either. Sometimes it helps to keep reading.
On January 09 2013 05:28 Hider wrote:
Im pretty sure that what he implies is that he still wants immortals to counter pure mech (which shouldn't happen as it just make for boring games). As a counter to that he wants terrans to add a few ghosts to emp the immortals. According to Dustin Browder's simplistic game design philosophy he would probably call this dynamic/micro intensive etc.
"We want all Factory to be useful sometimes"
Good read on that implication. Also, way to ignore a high masters player who has more experience playing mech in TvP than 99.9% of people on this forum.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003
Advice for fighting immortals that explicitly says not to use EMPs against them from the thread: + Show Spoiler +Hellions work perfectly against Immortals. They don't take the increased damage from Immortals (which means they only do ~13 DPS, which makes them an expensive Zealot). Hellions also do 8/9/10/11 damage, so they are almost always completely unaffected by Hardened Shield. If you have 10-13 Hellions, you can take down 2-3 Immortal Shields in one shot with focus fire. WOW. Who needs EMP? Save the EMP's for Archons, and after that I find it's best to ignore them. They really do horrible damage against Mech (for 300 gas), especially with no splash. They are only good for soaking up Siege Tank shots, so make sure your Siege Tanks are focus firing the Immortals and basically anything else first!
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siege tanks from 35+15 to 50+10
splash damage from 50%/25% to 33% (/33) or 33/20 (whatever is needed)
In words: increase main target damage to get a better snipe effect vs high HP Units = Protoss Units and Ultralisks (also good vs Infestors, Thors)
decrease splash damage so that tank vs bio and tank vs baneling/zergling ratios stay similar.
Mech solved 
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On January 09 2013 06:18 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:22 a176 wrote:We are not trying to create a "Factory Only" option for Terrans in this match up that works in every game on every map all the time So they are fine with 'barracks only' bio solution on all maps, but they won't allow 'factory only'. The hell? "We want all Factory to be useful sometimes and all Barracks to be useful sometimes and a mix to also have a place. " So in the next sentence they say they want all of either to be useful "sometimes" they don't seem to like the prevalence of bio either. Sometimes it helps to keep reading. Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:28 Hider wrote:
Im pretty sure that what he implies is that he still wants immortals to counter pure mech (which shouldn't happen as it just make for boring games). As a counter to that he wants terrans to add a few ghosts to emp the immortals. According to Dustin Browder's simplistic game design philosophy he would probably call this dynamic/micro intensive etc.
"We want all Factory to be useful sometimes" Good read on that implication. Also, way to ignore a high masters player who has more experience playing mech in TvP than 99.9% of people on this forum. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003Advice for fighting immortals that explicitly says not to use EMPs against them from the thread: + Show Spoiler +Hellions work perfectly against Immortals. They don't take the increased damage from Immortals (which means they only do ~13 DPS, which makes them an expensive Zealot). Hellions also do 8/9/10/11 damage, so they are almost always completely unaffected by Hardened Shield. If you have 10-13 Hellions, you can take down 2-3 Immortal Shields in one shot with focus fire. WOW. Who needs EMP? Save the EMP's for Archons, and after that I find it's best to ignore them. They really do horrible damage against Mech (for 300 gas), especially with no splash. They are only good for soaking up Siege Tank shots, so make sure your Siege Tanks are focus firing the Immortals and basically anything else first!
Maybe you should read the thread your self and then you would realize that I have posted in it previously.
Also you will probably realize that Lyyna has never agued that pure mech is viable (in fact he has argued the opposite). Lyyna's style is just super boring from a spectator POV (even though I kinda enjoy playing it), because its basically deathball vs deathball and it has nothing to do with the multitaskbased bw mech.
So please don't make offensive comments untill you make sure you fully understand my POV.
That factory comment (btw) is easily interpreted as; We want tanks to be usefull in tvp (but they don't want pure mech unfortunately).
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On January 09 2013 05:58 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:53 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:42 The_Darkness wrote:On January 09 2013 05:26 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.
Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that. Ah, the classic design post, taking personal opinion and raising it to a level where the skills of the people making the game are called into question. It is clear that some people will always take issue with everything blizzard says. Edit: grammer is key. If only you (and DB) were students of good game and unit design like the estimable Hider, then perhaps we wouldn't see such ignorant posts from you! You're not even able to predict the precise ways in which the next patch will fail, lol! Not only will the next patch (the content of which we do not know, of course) be an epic failure at promoting mech in tvp, but it will also serve to drive home the unavoidable truth that DB and Blizzard do not understand good unit or game design. And to think we were complaining earlier how a small group of posters fill every thread with negative posts about "game design". And now someone is focusing on a single line posted by DB and complaining it is terrible game design. You keep making these posts, yet still haven't tried to come up with an argument for why I am wrong? If you can't follow my logic, that is fine, but then don't make these kind of posts.
I think that Ghosts in a factory based army is fine, as they are primarily spell casters anyways. I don’t think that terrans should be able to deal every form of the protoss ground army with factory based units alone. A reasonable number of starports and barracks is fine. Claiming that the game will only be well designed when terrans can beat every protoss ground army with only factory units is simply saying that the game will only be good when they do it your way.
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or simply reduce tanks supply to 2 from 3 so that Terran can get 20+ tanks - i love this
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On January 09 2013 06:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:58 Hider wrote:On January 09 2013 05:53 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:42 The_Darkness wrote:On January 09 2013 05:26 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.
Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that. Ah, the classic design post, taking personal opinion and raising it to a level where the skills of the people making the game are called into question. It is clear that some people will always take issue with everything blizzard says. Edit: grammer is key. If only you (and DB) were students of good game and unit design like the estimable Hider, then perhaps we wouldn't see such ignorant posts from you! You're not even able to predict the precise ways in which the next patch will fail, lol! Not only will the next patch (the content of which we do not know, of course) be an epic failure at promoting mech in tvp, but it will also serve to drive home the unavoidable truth that DB and Blizzard do not understand good unit or game design. And to think we were complaining earlier how a small group of posters fill every thread with negative posts about "game design". And now someone is focusing on a single line posted by DB and complaining it is terrible game design. You keep making these posts, yet still haven't tried to come up with an argument for why I am wrong? If you can't follow my logic, that is fine, but then don't make these kind of posts. I think that Ghosts in a factory based army is fine, as they are primarily spell casters anyways. I don’t think that terrans should be able to deal every form of the protoss ground army with factory based units alone. A reasonable number of starports and barracks is fine. Claiming that the game will only be well designed when terrans can beat every protoss ground army with only factory units is simply saying that the game will only be good when they do it your way.
If Ghost were needed to deal with high tech groudn army, it would be fine.
But as of now, standard mech don't trade well enough against simple gateway armies.
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On January 09 2013 06:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:58 Hider wrote:On January 09 2013 05:53 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:42 The_Darkness wrote:On January 09 2013 05:26 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.
Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that. Ah, the classic design post, taking personal opinion and raising it to a level where the skills of the people making the game are called into question. It is clear that some people will always take issue with everything blizzard says. Edit: grammer is key. If only you (and DB) were students of good game and unit design like the estimable Hider, then perhaps we wouldn't see such ignorant posts from you! You're not even able to predict the precise ways in which the next patch will fail, lol! Not only will the next patch (the content of which we do not know, of course) be an epic failure at promoting mech in tvp, but it will also serve to drive home the unavoidable truth that DB and Blizzard do not understand good unit or game design. And to think we were complaining earlier how a small group of posters fill every thread with negative posts about "game design". And now someone is focusing on a single line posted by DB and complaining it is terrible game design. You keep making these posts, yet still haven't tried to come up with an argument for why I am wrong? If you can't follow my logic, that is fine, but then don't make these kind of posts. I think that Ghosts in a factory based army is fine, as they are primarily spell casters anyways. I don’t think that terrans should be able to deal every form of the protoss ground army with factory based units alone. A reasonable number of starports and barracks is fine. Claiming that the game will only be well designed when terrans can beat every protoss ground army with only factory units is simply saying that the game will only be good when they do it your way.
Did you read my post about how this forces the terran to turtle up and how this will make the terran unable to defend multiple locations at once by spreading his tanks out?
Also, I never argued that starports shouldn't be a neccessity to deal with late game toss air, but ghosts shouldn't be a neccesity to deal with a core protoss army as it just creates boring turtling + deathball games.
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On January 09 2013 06:14 Tommyth wrote:
I don't get why most of people loves BW TvP so much...
I personally find it most boring MU. Scenarios were very limited compared to others. Long positional play with terran trying to get a perfect siege line and toss pursuing to find a hole in it is quite fun once in a while, but not every single game...
I like DB's view that pure factory play should never be viable. Starting with bio, slowly adding mech units and pursuing a full mech army, but never actually reaching it until very very late would be the perfect design for me.
Something like this is never going to be viable, due to how Terran is designed, how production works, how upgrades are separated, how you unlock tech, etc..
Once you research stim, you are not going into heavy mech production and upgrades..
So I guess the right question for Dustin would be, could you make "mech" viable as a mix of all tech paths without stim being researched? Like you might use Reapers/Marines early game, Ghosts mid/late game, but the core of your army will be mech..
Or, you go bio, so core of your army will be MMM, and you build few Tanks, Thors, or Hellbats, according to situation.
But I think there will never be absolutely combined army, where you would constantly producing units from rax/factory/starport..
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On January 09 2013 06:26 foxj wrote:
or simply reduce tanks supply to 2 from 3 so that Terran can get 20+ tanks - i love this
i think this will make bio useless in tvt (and probably mess up tvz as well). Blizzard likely won't implement this change.
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On January 09 2013 06:28 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 06:14 Tommyth wrote:
I don't get why most of people loves BW TvP so much...
I personally find it most boring MU. Scenarios were very limited compared to others. Long positional play with terran trying to get a perfect siege line and toss pursuing to find a hole in it is quite fun once in a while, but not every single game...
I like DB's view that pure factory play should never be viable. Starting with bio, slowly adding mech units and pursuing a full mech army, but never actually reaching it until very very late would be the perfect design for me. Something like this is never going to be viable, due to how Terran is designed, how production works, how upgrades are separated, how you unlock tech, etc.. Once you research stim, you are not going into heavy mech production and upgrades.. So I guess the right question for Dustin would be, could you make "mech" viable as a mix of all tech paths without stim being researched? Like you might use Reapers/Marines early game, Ghosts mid/late game, but the core of your army will be mech.. Or, you go bio, so core of your army will be MMM, and you build few Tanks, Thors, or Hellbats, according to situation. But I think there will never be absolutely combined army, where you would constantly producing units from rax/factory/starport..
Hmm not sure I completely agree. I actually think a bio opening (with stim no other upgrades + a couple of medis) into mech is just an awesome (theoretical way of playing) the game, and if tanks were balanced I believe this opening could be viable as you know can do quite a bit of damage with your drops (both indirect and direct).
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On January 09 2013 04:42 AdrianHealey wrote:
I love it when Blizzard gives feedback. That's literally the most important thing to do. So that we 'know' that they are doing 'something'.
Apollo ,a wise man, a wise man once said "always do something with something".
I figured it fitted
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I generally try to stay positive about the future of SC2, and trust in blizzard as much as I can (and more than is smart), but I have to admit, things don't look good to me for TvP mech. I mean, it already had enough trouble against toss ground in WoL, and even though I really really love the new air toss, it just dug that hole way deeper. Even if Blizzard had proven itself as the king of good game design, and Browder was being hailed as the guru of balance I would have some doubts about how they could pull this of. As it stands now...even my purposefully naive trust in Blizzard can't really believe this is ever gonna work out 
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On January 09 2013 06:27 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 06:25 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:58 Hider wrote:On January 09 2013 05:53 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:42 The_Darkness wrote:On January 09 2013 05:26 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.
Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that. Ah, the classic design post, taking personal opinion and raising it to a level where the skills of the people making the game are called into question. It is clear that some people will always take issue with everything blizzard says. Edit: grammer is key. If only you (and DB) were students of good game and unit design like the estimable Hider, then perhaps we wouldn't see such ignorant posts from you! You're not even able to predict the precise ways in which the next patch will fail, lol! Not only will the next patch (the content of which we do not know, of course) be an epic failure at promoting mech in tvp, but it will also serve to drive home the unavoidable truth that DB and Blizzard do not understand good unit or game design. And to think we were complaining earlier how a small group of posters fill every thread with negative posts about "game design". And now someone is focusing on a single line posted by DB and complaining it is terrible game design. You keep making these posts, yet still haven't tried to come up with an argument for why I am wrong? If you can't follow my logic, that is fine, but then don't make these kind of posts. I think that Ghosts in a factory based army is fine, as they are primarily spell casters anyways. I don’t think that terrans should be able to deal every form of the protoss ground army with factory based units alone. A reasonable number of starports and barracks is fine. Claiming that the game will only be well designed when terrans can beat every protoss ground army with only factory units is simply saying that the game will only be good when they do it your way. Did you read my post about how this forces the terran to turtle up and how this will make the terran unable to defend multiple locations at once by spreading his tanks out? Also, I never argued that starports shouldn't be a neccessity to deal with late game toss air, but ghosts shouldn't be a neccesity to deal with a core protoss army as it just creates boring turtling + deathball games.
You basically have charted out a 15-25 minute game based on a single line that terrans may have to use ghost in some way, and then assume the game is poorly designed because of that. You have no idea how the game will be changed or what will happen due to those changes. You just assume that the game will go the way you claim based on the limited information you have and challenge others to disprove you. But you lack sufficient information to even back up your claim.
So I don't agree and I think you lack enough information to back up your claims. I find your evidence to be poor.
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On January 09 2013 06:22 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 06:18 TheFrankOne wrote:On January 09 2013 05:22 a176 wrote:We are not trying to create a "Factory Only" option for Terrans in this match up that works in every game on every map all the time So they are fine with 'barracks only' bio solution on all maps, but they won't allow 'factory only'. The hell? "We want all Factory to be useful sometimes and all Barracks to be useful sometimes and a mix to also have a place. " So in the next sentence they say they want all of either to be useful "sometimes" they don't seem to like the prevalence of bio either. Sometimes it helps to keep reading. On January 09 2013 05:28 Hider wrote:
Im pretty sure that what he implies is that he still wants immortals to counter pure mech (which shouldn't happen as it just make for boring games). As a counter to that he wants terrans to add a few ghosts to emp the immortals. According to Dustin Browder's simplistic game design philosophy he would probably call this dynamic/micro intensive etc.
"We want all Factory to be useful sometimes" Good read on that implication. Also, way to ignore a high masters player who has more experience playing mech in TvP than 99.9% of people on this forum. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003Advice for fighting immortals that explicitly says not to use EMPs against them from the thread: + Show Spoiler +Hellions work perfectly against Immortals. They don't take the increased damage from Immortals (which means they only do ~13 DPS, which makes them an expensive Zealot). Hellions also do 8/9/10/11 damage, so they are almost always completely unaffected by Hardened Shield. If you have 10-13 Hellions, you can take down 2-3 Immortal Shields in one shot with focus fire. WOW. Who needs EMP? Save the EMP's for Archons, and after that I find it's best to ignore them. They really do horrible damage against Mech (for 300 gas), especially with no splash. They are only good for soaking up Siege Tank shots, so make sure your Siege Tanks are focus firing the Immortals and basically anything else first! Maybe you should read the thread your self and then you would realize that I have posted in it previously. Also you will probably realize that Lyyna has never agued that pure mech is viable (in fact he has argued the opposite). Lyyna's style is just super boring from a spectator POV (even though I kinda enjoy playing it), because its basically deathball vs deathball and it has nothing to do with the multitaskbased bw mech. So please don't make offensive comments untill you make sure you fully understand my POV. That factory comment (btw) is easily interpreted as; We want tanks to be usefull in tvp (but they don't want pure mech unfortunately).
To exactly tell my advice about ghostless mech, it's just that it's so much harder to play this compared to ghostmech that it's not worth it imo. Ghostmech can easily crush a protoss army, pure mech will have a really harder time, but it can too.
Imo the fact my play ends up being deathball vs deathball isn't a consequence of the play itself : multitask/position based play (aka bw tvp mech) is basically non-existant in sc2 overall. if i could, i would tweak my play to play a more bw-ish style (and in fact i already tried to do so).
Imo what they need to do is
-Tank back to 50 damage
-New unit (as they probably wouldnt replace the thor) .. a goliath. or the 1st version of the warhound. low/average ground damage, good air damage with long range, ability to be produced relatively fast and in good number.
-Bring back the old HSM (may not be a "mech only" thing, but well, as someone who abused HSM in WoL to fight sky toss, the new HSM makes me feel... hee... dead)
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On January 09 2013 06:17 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 06:14 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 09 2013 06:08 LavaLava wrote:On January 09 2013 06:00 Noocta wrote:On January 09 2013 05:49 LavaLava wrote:Widow Mine should really have been on the poll. Tank damage versus Light is sitting at a very particular spot, where if you change it up or down it ruins the dynamic with Lings... and if you make it good enough to survive Chargelots, you completely slaughter Marines, lings, and several other units. I posted this thread on Reddit a while ago. It explains pretty well why the only smart and easy way to make Mech work is to actually give the Widow Mine some version of Concussive Shells, while playing around with the damage numbers. Read the thread, you'll probably agree with me that it's the only/best option short of a huge game redesign. Tanks full damage to shield It's pretty simple really Except I'm not sure if that's the type of change Blizzard will ever make. I'm sure that would be filed under "unintuitive" and they may have even stated that in the past. The Hellion transforms in to a unit with more HP and changes from mechanical to mechanical-biological, the Void Ray in Wing has like 3 attack types, Snipe is the only attack with +to psionic . So cumbersome solutions are a core part of Blizzard balance. Blizzard won't make the "full damage to shield" though, because that wouldn't make sense with DB's comments that ghosts should be a neccesity along with mech. (emp would kinda be semi-useless then).
Oh i don't think they'l do it, i'm just saying no change is to "unintuitive" for them.
The problems are IMO: Tanks do to little dmg against high HP units; Immortals are way to good against Siege Tanks; anti air is not good enough. And the mother of all problems: DB is not convinced the game actually needs Tank based mech in TvP (apparently he is at least willing to try to test it).
Basically, Tanks in good position need to be able to hold ground against superior Protoss ground forces. If they can not, you only get death ball "Lyyna" style. That is boring i agree with DB, but that is not what mech should be. If i wanted a death ball of expensive and slow'ish units i would play Protoss.
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On January 09 2013 06:39 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 06:22 Hider wrote:On January 09 2013 06:18 TheFrankOne wrote:On January 09 2013 05:22 a176 wrote:We are not trying to create a "Factory Only" option for Terrans in this match up that works in every game on every map all the time So they are fine with 'barracks only' bio solution on all maps, but they won't allow 'factory only'. The hell? "We want all Factory to be useful sometimes and all Barracks to be useful sometimes and a mix to also have a place. " So in the next sentence they say they want all of either to be useful "sometimes" they don't seem to like the prevalence of bio either. Sometimes it helps to keep reading. On January 09 2013 05:28 Hider wrote:
Im pretty sure that what he implies is that he still wants immortals to counter pure mech (which shouldn't happen as it just make for boring games). As a counter to that he wants terrans to add a few ghosts to emp the immortals. According to Dustin Browder's simplistic game design philosophy he would probably call this dynamic/micro intensive etc.
"We want all Factory to be useful sometimes" Good read on that implication. Also, way to ignore a high masters player who has more experience playing mech in TvP than 99.9% of people on this forum. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003Advice for fighting immortals that explicitly says not to use EMPs against them from the thread: + Show Spoiler +Hellions work perfectly against Immortals. They don't take the increased damage from Immortals (which means they only do ~13 DPS, which makes them an expensive Zealot). Hellions also do 8/9/10/11 damage, so they are almost always completely unaffected by Hardened Shield. If you have 10-13 Hellions, you can take down 2-3 Immortal Shields in one shot with focus fire. WOW. Who needs EMP? Save the EMP's for Archons, and after that I find it's best to ignore them. They really do horrible damage against Mech (for 300 gas), especially with no splash. They are only good for soaking up Siege Tank shots, so make sure your Siege Tanks are focus firing the Immortals and basically anything else first! Maybe you should read the thread your self and then you would realize that I have posted in it previously. Also you will probably realize that Lyyna has never agued that pure mech is viable (in fact he has argued the opposite). Lyyna's style is just super boring from a spectator POV (even though I kinda enjoy playing it), because its basically deathball vs deathball and it has nothing to do with the multitaskbased bw mech. So please don't make offensive comments untill you make sure you fully understand my POV. That factory comment (btw) is easily interpreted as; We want tanks to be usefull in tvp (but they don't want pure mech unfortunately). To exactly tell my advice about ghostless mech, it's just that it's so much harder to play this compared to ghostmech that it's not worth it imo. Ghostmech can easily crush a protoss army, pure mech will have a really harder time, but it can too. Imo the fact my play ends up being deathball vs deathball isn't a consequence of the play itself : multitask/position based play (aka bw tvp mech) is basically non-existant in sc2 overall. if i could, i would tweak my play to play a more bw-ish style (and in fact i already tried to do so)
Yeh I kinda agree. I also don't think ghosts-necessity is the biggest cause of deathballs. Rather its more related to the economy-system, and I believe these two things needs to happen before we can get rid of the deathball:
1) Reduce mining efficiency per base.
2) Buff immobile units (to compensate).
The latter would include a buff to the tanks.
But do you agree with me (or at least can you follow my logic) that it's kinda bad for the game that terrans needs ghosts to be effective against a "core-protoss ground army". Wouldn't it be better for the game if pure mech was viable (against a protoss ground army) so that terrans quicker could take a 4th and turtle less (which would make it easier for the protoss to harass?).
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"We want all Factory to be useful sometimes"
Sometimes I fly my Factory over the Protoss base to see what he's doing. It's also great for making reactors.
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On January 09 2013 06:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 06:17 Hider wrote:On January 09 2013 06:14 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 09 2013 06:08 LavaLava wrote:On January 09 2013 06:00 Noocta wrote:On January 09 2013 05:49 LavaLava wrote:Widow Mine should really have been on the poll. Tank damage versus Light is sitting at a very particular spot, where if you change it up or down it ruins the dynamic with Lings... and if you make it good enough to survive Chargelots, you completely slaughter Marines, lings, and several other units. I posted this thread on Reddit a while ago. It explains pretty well why the only smart and easy way to make Mech work is to actually give the Widow Mine some version of Concussive Shells, while playing around with the damage numbers. Read the thread, you'll probably agree with me that it's the only/best option short of a huge game redesign. Tanks full damage to shield It's pretty simple really Except I'm not sure if that's the type of change Blizzard will ever make. I'm sure that would be filed under "unintuitive" and they may have even stated that in the past. The Hellion transforms in to a unit with more HP and changes from mechanical to mechanical-biological, the Void Ray in Wing has like 3 attack types, Snipe is the only attack with +to psionic . So cumbersome solutions are a core part of Blizzard balance. Blizzard won't make the "full damage to shield" though, because that wouldn't make sense with DB's comments that ghosts should be a neccesity along with mech. (emp would kinda be semi-useless then). Oh i don't think they'l do it, i'm just saying no change is to "unintuitive" for them. The problems are IMO: Tanks do to little dmg against high HP units; Immortals are way to good against Siege Tanks; anti air is not good enough. And the mother of all problems: DB is not convinced the game actually needs Tank based mech in TvP (apparently he is at least willing to try to test it). Basically, Tanks in good position need to be able to hold ground against superior Protoss ground forces. If they can not, you only get death ball "Lyyna" style. That is boring i agree with DB, but that is not what mech should be. If i wanted a death ball of expensive and slow'ish units i would play Protoss.
I fully agree.
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EPT
