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Blizzard to focus on Mech this week.

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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HTOMario
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
United States439 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-10 06:56:48
January 08 2013 19:40 GMT
#1
We are working on mech TvP this week and we are working a little on Reapers. We feel like mech TvP still isn't where we want it to be and Reapers are now a better early rusher but we would like to see if we can find a way to make it more generally useful.

But TvP mech is the real focus. We are looking at some buffs to mech units but we have to be careful because mech units can be very strong in other matchups (TvT, TvZ).


With many players getting upset over difficulty opening mech or the amount of ways protoss can abuse it with the mothership core and air units. Many players have recently taken to the blizzard forums have been blowing up with complaints regarding the usage of mech against protoss.

One post that blizzard has responded to is this.
+ Show Spoiler +

After playing several games on all matchups post patch 10 (and 100+ pre patch), here are my thoughts on the terran side of things.


On Units:

Reapers: Get shutdown pretty easily in TvZ/TvP matchups while becoming much more deadlier in TvT. The player with the reaper who gets hit first loses which seems very frustrating.

I think their damage against light units need to be toned down alittle here to give marines or even hellions some chance. Would be great if there were ways to overcome armoured foes e.g marauders/roaches/stalkers instead of 1~2 of them shutting down all of them unless massed.

Widow Mines: I think they are a nice addition to someone who mechs in the TvZ/TvT matchups (more on this later) and give some useful defense utility. The 1 second burrow time makes them very good offensive units. Seems abit too supply heavy for lots of board control. Itd be nice if hi-sec auto tracking could increase their range or something that makes them alittle more usable late game when detectors are plenty.

Given their build time (from factories that are expensive in early/mid game) and supply cost they can countered far too easily though or microed around. Also why do they trigger on free hallucinations e.g. pheonixes which effectively make all that resources/supply spent on WMs redundant. reason why they are literally useless in TvP.

Medivacs: Love the speed boost as it creates really interesting scenarios (frustration for the enemy) but the ability should have a longer cool down or an energy cost or takes extra damage in return for speed so that it is really for emergency only.

Healing upgrade is far too good. Taking out small drops or small contingent of the MMM bio force is far too difficult e.g. mech vs bio as more damage is required or a presence of a large large force.

Thors: I do like the HEP option and I think the thor in terms of the 3d model/design is "cool" yet reality is that its still too costly/clunky. It still feels too cumbersome. I think the original idea of the warhound being half the thor would fix this with the HEP option. So a warhound with lower cost/size/supply with similiar GtA range attack as the thor (fires 2 rockets instead of 4 in ExpP? and a weaker HEP?).

Hellions/Hellbats/BattleHellions: Ive always liked battle hellions and their ability to transform. Ive never tried Hellbat + MMM but in terms of "mech" and the hellions role, they do well e.g. providing a beefy layer for your mech composition or hold position hellbat drops with medivacs.

However instead of being even moreso effective against light units, I think that they need either an upgrade to either make alittle bit more durable (take less FF? in battle mode?) or be a little more effective against anti light foes (a little higher flat base damage?).

Ravens: I really do think that the seeker missiles need to have some sort of splash back. The current ability seems useful in say sniping tanks or pre-engagement harass but during actual engagements they're becoming quite awkward and less effective to use compared to the old.

Either the old seeker makes its return or a new ability that involves splash (duration or direct etc) is a must. Also some attention to auto turrets would be nice.

General thoughts on other units/upgrades/misc stuff: I think battle cruisers are fine as they are contrary to what others thinks atm even in TvP that doesn't involve tempests. Tanks on the otherhand should be given a buff given all these new threats posed by the other races + maps (no more steppes) + the redundancy of 1/1/1 in TvP. Whether its a damage buff or cost/supply buff Im not sure but it definitely needs one. Tech reactors would be a nice macro buff for T which lacks severely in that department in the late game.

Lastly I feel as if vikings should have a late game upgrade to make them deal or atleast be more durable against all these new air threats that has cropped up in HOTS + durable ground mode.

On Matchups:

TvT: Outside of reaper wars, I think the matchup is generally similiar to WoL with few minor differences like bio drops becoming abit too nasty.

TvZ: In terms of mech, I think they are in a pretty good spot. A combination of WMs/hellbats/thors/tanks with later air support has a very interesting relationship with whats happening over at the zerg camp e.g. roach/hydra, vipers, new ultralisks etc. The widow mines help out against the remaxes and air threats e.g. mutas overpowering thors.

However because of the new raven ability, the air war seems harder than it was to begin with. Need the splash back. Lastly, swarmhost's locusts do far too much damage hence why when they reach a number like 10+, it becomes very difficult to deal with them. I think more locust/less damage would be better option.

TvP: This one in terms of mech has far too many problems. The tempests seem to really kill off the viability all together. MsC/hallucinations makes WM redundant and archons eat through hellbats.

I think hallucinations either aren't free or are similiar to the BW counterparts (so no flying scanner ala phoenix) or ob build time goes back to what it was originally since scouting is essentially all so easy now. Im thinking hallucinations need another look.

The dreaded 1/1/1 seems not so effective anymore due to the MsC and the MsC poses some early game threat (fly straight into T mineral line along with a stalker/zealot poke) that puts T into defensive mode most of the time. The threat of oracles (I didn't know but 2~3 of them can ignore a turret or two and clear out mineral lines or take out key buildings in matter of seconds).

I think instead of looking at Terran balance, the immortal and tempests need to be looked at because if they are toned down in a way that they dont hard counter things, I think mech could be viable. Immortals which also pose problems in PvZ ala immortal sentry all in should be toned down so that tanks can exploit some weakeness instead of relying SO much on ghosts. EMPs should "support" the units not decide their viability. Whether hardened shield is an ability or damage is nerfed or some other rework Im not sure. What im thinking is a nice balance so that immortals aren't so susceptible to burst damage dealers like marines while not being too specialised as an anti-armoured sniper.

With regards to tempests, I think they are a fine unit except that they need some sort of a weakness to compensate for the massive range/hitpoints and dareisay movement speed (same as thor/BCs etC). Dealing with tempests means you really have to commit say your vikings hence why this weakness is required. An interesting concept of a flying space controlling unit that reduces its speed and AOE damage in return for a focused long range attack would be interesting..

Just my thoughts for now.


With blizzards response being,

Thanks for the post. I am NOT endorsing Protoss nerfs by posting on this thread. =) I tend to agree with his comments on the heal beam, the need for changes on the Tank and the Battle Hellion, his concerns on the Raven and the Thor.

I also think he has good comments about TvP Mech. I don't know that nerfing the Protoss units are the answer because of the need for those units to be useful in other match ups but the original poster does (I think) identify the correct threats that are making mech not as viable as we would like.


Personally this has me a little pumped, I can't wait for mech to be more viable after playing many games and being demolished to players who I have a winning track record against as bio.

So to I ask all of you, what would be the best buffs to mech units that wouldn't break other matchups?

Please remember that the battlecruiser most likely won't be one of them.

We were discussing this internally today and reminded ourselves that the BC actually received a buff recently via the combining of mech armor upgrades. We're not altogether opposed to looking at this kind of idea again should the Cruiser prove in need of more, but as of right now we do not have it as a top priority.

I know that's not the sexiest news in the world, but we really do appreciate all of your enthusiasm and the activity that has surrounded this post. We love the Cruiser too! (I've got my Megabloks Cruiser at arms reach on my desk - the coolest Christmas gift of 2012!)


Poll: What unit should be buffed?

Siege tank (252)
 
63%

Add a new mech unit to factory (107)
 
27%

battlecruiser (14)
 
4%

raven (6)
 
2%

Thor (5)
 
1%

Add a new mech unit to starport (5)
 
1%

Viking (5)
 
1%

banshee (3)
 
1%

Hellion (2)
 
1%

399 total votes

Your vote: What unit should be buffed?

(Vote): Hellion
(Vote): Siege tank
(Vote): Thor
(Vote): Add a new mech unit to factory
(Vote): Add a new mech unit to starport
(Vote): Viking
(Vote): banshee
(Vote): raven
(Vote): battlecruiser




Sources:

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7592240150#4
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7592240133#4
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416267260?page=18#357

Edit: Blizzard with more information.
I want to be very clear about what are goals for using Factory units in Terran vs. Protoss.

We are not trying to create a "Factory Only" option for Terrans in this match up that works in every game on every map all the time. We want all Factory to be useful sometimes and all Barracks to be useful sometimes and a mix to also have a place. We are looking to unlock options, not remove Barracks play as a choice for Terran players against Protoss.

We think that Air units or Barracks units (or both) will often be necessary to support the Factory units. Ghosts alone will mean that the Barracks units always have some use, and Tempests will (probably) often pull the Terrans towards some air.

There are many times where a Terran player in Wings will build a Factory and use it only as a scout or will use it just a tech structure on their way to multiple Starports. We want the Factory to not be that useless. We want it to unlock some of those units for our Terran players when fighting Protoss.

At least that's our current thinking. If we get that to work but it's not that fun to play then we may not continue in this direction. Or if we simply can't make it work and remain balanced we may abandon this goal.


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7593400327?page=1#9

Edit2:

Terran

Barracks
Train Reaper no longer requires a Tech Lab Addon.
Hellbat
Attack speed changed from 1.9 to 2.The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade no longer increases Hellbat weapon damage.Napalm Spray weapon damage increased from 10 +9 vs. light to 18 +12 vs. light.Splash damage radius decreased from 110 to 45.
Medivac
Caduceus ReactorNo longer improves the healing rate of Medivacs.Upgrade cost decreased from 150/150 and 110 seconds to 100/100 and 80 seconds.Emergency Thrusters ability renamed Ignite Afterburners
Raven
Seeker missile Energy cost decreased from 125 to 75.Primary target damage reverted from 300 to 100.Seeker Missile once again deals splash damage.The delay time prior to firing has been increased from 3 to 5 seconds.
Reaper
The Battlefield Awareness passive ability has been removed from the game.Movement speed increased from 3.38 to 3.75.The Nitro Packs upgrade has been removed from the game.P-45 Gauss Pistol weapon damage decreased from 4 +5 vs. Light to 4.
Siege Tank
Siege Tanks no longer require an upgrade in order to enter Siege Mode.

Protoss

Mothership
The Vortex ability has been removed from the game.
Mothership Core
The Envision ability has been moved to Oracle.
Oracle
The Time Warp ability has been moved to the Mothership Core and the Mothership.

Zerg

Infestor
Fungal Growth damage decreased from 30 +10 vs. Armored to 30.
Mutalisk
Mutalisk Regeneration passive ability renamed Tissue Regeneration and its tooltip has been updated to improve clarity.

GM Mech T
AdrianHealey
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium480 Posts
January 08 2013 19:42 GMT
#2
I love it when Blizzard gives feedback. That's literally the most important thing to do. So that we 'know' that they are doing 'something'.
I love.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9407 Posts
January 08 2013 19:44 GMT
#3
Looking so much forward to do the day where i dont have to 1a-toss's, because I don't have 500 battle apm.
Everlong
Profile Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1973 Posts
January 08 2013 19:46 GMT
#4
Yes, finally, this seems like something might happen after all..
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-08 20:54:35
January 08 2013 20:02 GMT
#5
And here is a long post on "What they mean by Mech TvP" from Rock :

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7593400327?page=1

Read it, and you guys may be immediately disappointed.

OP please update this.
HTOMario
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
United States439 Posts
January 08 2013 20:03 GMT
#6
On January 09 2013 05:02 larse wrote:
And here is a long post on "What they mean by Mech TvP" from Rock :

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7593400327?page=1

You guys may be immediately disappointed.

OP please update this.


Did 3 minutes before your post, can't catch me! xD
GM Mech T
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9407 Posts
January 08 2013 20:08 GMT
#7
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.

Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that.
Everlong
Profile Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1973 Posts
January 08 2013 20:11 GMT
#8
I think mech + air should be doable.. I'm not convinced bio+mech+air will ever be "viable", since all the infrastructure, upgrades and everything you need to have for all three tech paths is a little too much I think..

I think they should go either back to separated upgrades completely/make them cheaper, or merge them, but up cost/research time..
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
January 08 2013 20:11 GMT
#9
They need to buff tanks. Buffing everything else is pointless if we want real mech to be viable.
I don't want to play Thor battlehellion, that's NOT mech.
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
MCDayC
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom14464 Posts
January 08 2013 20:12 GMT
#10
Why isnt the widow mine an option in the poll?
VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG
Everlong
Profile Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1973 Posts
January 08 2013 20:14 GMT
#11
But I guess this edit from Dustin means we should not expect BW tank-based mech to be viable.. They seems to really like this concept of Terran as a whole race (hellbat bio flag), so I guess, we just have to take, what they give us.. Hopefully, they won't scrap TvP mech idea completely.
KamikazeDurrrp
Profile Joined January 2012
United States95 Posts
January 08 2013 20:15 GMT
#12
On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.

Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that.


OMG YOU MENTIONED GAME DESIGN! YOU SHOULD BE BANNED FROM TALKING IN THIS FORUM!!! HISSSSS!!!! HISSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!

/bitterness off

The thing about this "patch" that worries me is that every time Dustin Browder comes out and actually says something reasonable and that I agree with, they end up releasing a patch that doesn't fix the problem or make the game even more broken in it's current form. I can't really get excited like most of these people are because I've basically been tricked by blizzard tons of times before, but I can knock on wood and say it can't get worse, right? :D
Deckard.666
Profile Joined September 2012
152 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-08 20:19:53
January 08 2013 20:18 GMT
#13
On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.



He never said they intended to make ghosts a necessity, but rather to keep them as a useful unit with a support role even when you were meching. And even if he had said that, I fail to see how that implies that you need "too much defensive turtling for the game to ever become interesting".
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9407 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-08 20:21:30
January 08 2013 20:18 GMT
#14
On January 09 2013 05:15 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.

Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that.


OMG YOU MENTIONED GAME DESIGN! YOU SHOULD BE BANNED FROM TALKING IN THIS FORUM!!! HISSSSS!!!! HISSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!

/bitterness off

The thing about this "patch" that worries me is that every time Dustin Browder comes out and actually says something reasonable and that I agree with, they end up releasing a patch that doesn't fix the problem or make the game even more broken in it's current form. I can't really get excited like most of these people are because I've basically been tricked by blizzard tons of times before, but I can knock on wood and say it can't get worse, right? :D


Yeh I have the same feeling. They make one posts or one patch which shows that they are capable of identying some of the problems, but then they just make the wrong kind of fixes. It's honestly so frustrating.

It seems to me that though (after careful observations) that they are only capable of identifying the problems after reading enough complaints from players and/or watching their units in action. If they actually understood proper game design, they would be capable of making well designed units before testing them in the beta, which would save us a lot of time as we wouldn't test stupid stuff such as the "root-infestor", the warhound, entomb etc.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
January 08 2013 20:22 GMT
#15
We are not trying to create a "Factory Only" option for Terrans in this match up that works in every game on every map all the time


So they are fine with 'barracks only' bio solution on all maps, but they won't allow 'factory only'. The hell?
starleague forever
LloydPGM
Profile Joined January 2012
85 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-08 20:25:26
January 08 2013 20:24 GMT
#16
On January 09 2013 04:40 HTOMario wrote:
Thors: I do like the HEP option and I think the thor in terms of the 3d model/design is "cool" yet reality is that its still too costly/clunky. It still feels too cumbersome. I think the original idea of the warhound being half the thor would fix this with the HEP option. So a warhound with lower cost/size/supply with similiar GtA range attack as the thor (fires 2 rockets instead of 4 in ExpP? and a weaker HEP?)


Please don't remove a factory unit to replace it with another one... Thor is okay like that, however if the model is too clunky just fix the model.


If we get that to work but it's not that fun to play then we may not continue in this direction. Or if we simply can't make it work and remain balanced we may abandon this goal.


I'm pretty sure this will all end like that... I don't expect a lot from Blizzard... Maybe 2.5 years of terran nerfs make me think like this.

Btw every problem is clearly exposed.
http://video.gamecreds.com/1mggimrsyxc0n/channel/Lloyd
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
January 08 2013 20:24 GMT
#17
Heh to be honest BC's don't need a buff anyway. I am hoping that mech can be viable TvP cause I like mech tvp .
When I think of something else, something will go here
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-08 20:27:37
January 08 2013 20:26 GMT
#18
On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.

Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that.


Ah, the classic design post, taking personal opinion and raising it to a level where the skills of the people making the game are called into question. It is clear that some people will always take issue with everything blizzard says.

Edit: grammer is key.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9407 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-08 20:29:54
January 08 2013 20:28 GMT
#19
On January 09 2013 05:18 Deckard.666 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.



He never said they intended to make ghosts a necessity, but rather to keep them as a useful unit with a support role even when you were meching. And even if he had said that, I fail to see how that implies that you need "too much defensive turtling for the game to ever become interesting".


Im pretty sure that what he implies is that he still wants immortals to counter pure mech (which shouldn't happen as it just make for boring games). As a counter to that he wants terrans to add a few ghosts to emp the immortals. According to Dustin Browder's simplistic game design philosophy he would probably call this dynamic/micro intensive etc.

But the thing is, that it actually takes a lot of time for a terran to get both mech units and ghosts out, and untill he does that he has to turtle hardcore. He needs suply depots to wall of his bases and go for uber turtle. If he plays correctly there is also nothing the toss can do, as he can't harass a turtling terran on 3 bases efficiently. Instead, he will just take bases him self and add a few cannons to nullify hellion harass.

To sum up, these games are uber uber boring. Also late late game we will never see scenarios where the terran can spread out his tanks and defend multiple locations at once efficiently. Instead he needs to have his whole army together (along with all of the ghosts). Also the terran will never be abel to move out before he has planetaries and has scv's (replaced them by orbituals) so he can safely defend against counterattacks.

This will just create these huge deathball scenarios and games like these are the reason why people (and probably dustin browder as well) thinks mech is kinda boring.

Indeed, the games are boring, but that is because blizzard hasn't designed mech correctly. If they were competent they would attempt to fix some of these flaws.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9407 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-08 20:34:28
January 08 2013 20:31 GMT
#20
On January 09 2013 05:26 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.

Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that.


Ah, the classic design post, taking personal opinion and raising it to a level where the skills of the people making the game are called into question. It is clear that some people will always take issue with everything blizzard says.

Edit: grammer is key.


Ah, the classic ignorant post. Please study game design and read my posts. Then you will probably realize how clueless you (and DB) are.

I was clueless once as well. Those BW guys for some (weird) reason just disliked Sc2. I didn't get it back then, but I didn't make posts like you did at least because (indeed) I was clueless.

User was temp banned for this post.
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