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On January 09 2013 05:28 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:18 Deckard.666 wrote:On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting. He never said they intended to make ghosts a necessity, but rather to keep them as a useful unit with a support role even when you were meching. And even if he had said that, I fail to see how that implies that you need "too much defensive turtling for the game to ever become interesting". Im pretty sure that what he implies is that he still wants immortals to counter pure mech (which shouldn't happen as it just make for boring games). As a counter to that he wants terrans to add a few ghosts to emp the immortals. According to Dustin Browder's simplistic game design philosophy he would probably call this dynamic/micro intensive etc. But the thing is, that it actually takes a lot of time for a terran to get both mech units and ghosts out, and untill he does that he has to turtle hardcore. He needs suply depots to wall of his bases and go for uber turtle. If he plays correctly there is also nothing the toss can do, as he can't harass a turtling terran on 3 bases efficiently. Instead, he will just take bases him self and add a few cannons to nullify hellion harass. To sum up, these games are uber uber boring. Also late late game we will never see scenarios where the terran can spread out his tanks and defend multiple locations at once efficiently. Instead he needs to have his whole army together (along with all of the ghosts). Also the terran will never be abel to move out before he has planetaries and has scv's (replaced them by orbituals) so he can safely defend against counterattacks. This will just create these huge deathball scenarios and games like these are the reason why people (and probably dustin browder as well) thinks mech is kinda boring. Indeed, the games are boring, but that is because blizzard hasn't designed mech correctly. If they were competent they would attempt to fix some of these flaws.
You can tell all that from three posts on the B.net forums without seeing the patch notes or having any other information at all? Have you considered a career in the stock market?
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On January 09 2013 05:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:28 Hider wrote:On January 09 2013 05:18 Deckard.666 wrote:On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting. He never said they intended to make ghosts a necessity, but rather to keep them as a useful unit with a support role even when you were meching. And even if he had said that, I fail to see how that implies that you need "too much defensive turtling for the game to ever become interesting". Im pretty sure that what he implies is that he still wants immortals to counter pure mech (which shouldn't happen as it just make for boring games). As a counter to that he wants terrans to add a few ghosts to emp the immortals. According to Dustin Browder's simplistic game design philosophy he would probably call this dynamic/micro intensive etc. But the thing is, that it actually takes a lot of time for a terran to get both mech units and ghosts out, and untill he does that he has to turtle hardcore. He needs suply depots to wall of his bases and go for uber turtle. If he plays correctly there is also nothing the toss can do, as he can't harass a turtling terran on 3 bases efficiently. Instead, he will just take bases him self and add a few cannons to nullify hellion harass. To sum up, these games are uber uber boring. Also late late game we will never see scenarios where the terran can spread out his tanks and defend multiple locations at once efficiently. Instead he needs to have his whole army together (along with all of the ghosts). Also the terran will never be abel to move out before he has planetaries and has scv's (replaced them by orbituals) so he can safely defend against counterattacks. This will just create these huge deathball scenarios and games like these are the reason why people (and probably dustin browder as well) thinks mech is kinda boring. Indeed, the games are boring, but that is because blizzard hasn't designed mech correctly. If they were competent they would attempt to fix some of these flaws. You can tell all that from three posts on the B.net forums without seeing the patch notes or having any other information at all? Have you considered a career in the stock market?
I think it's pretty clear that there's a huge difference between what blizzard says, and what ends up being reality. We're just making the point that even though blizzard always promises us to fix things, the reality never ends up being that way. Hell, DB has said things I've agreed with before (such as making fungal a slow would not solve the infestor problem) but then ends up buffing the infestor anyway. We just want some damn consistency.
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On January 09 2013 05:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:28 Hider wrote:On January 09 2013 05:18 Deckard.666 wrote:On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting. He never said they intended to make ghosts a necessity, but rather to keep them as a useful unit with a support role even when you were meching. And even if he had said that, I fail to see how that implies that you need "too much defensive turtling for the game to ever become interesting". Im pretty sure that what he implies is that he still wants immortals to counter pure mech (which shouldn't happen as it just make for boring games). As a counter to that he wants terrans to add a few ghosts to emp the immortals. According to Dustin Browder's simplistic game design philosophy he would probably call this dynamic/micro intensive etc. But the thing is, that it actually takes a lot of time for a terran to get both mech units and ghosts out, and untill he does that he has to turtle hardcore. He needs suply depots to wall of his bases and go for uber turtle. If he plays correctly there is also nothing the toss can do, as he can't harass a turtling terran on 3 bases efficiently. Instead, he will just take bases him self and add a few cannons to nullify hellion harass. To sum up, these games are uber uber boring. Also late late game we will never see scenarios where the terran can spread out his tanks and defend multiple locations at once efficiently. Instead he needs to have his whole army together (along with all of the ghosts). Also the terran will never be abel to move out before he has planetaries and has scv's (replaced them by orbituals) so he can safely defend against counterattacks. This will just create these huge deathball scenarios and games like these are the reason why people (and probably dustin browder as well) thinks mech is kinda boring. Indeed, the games are boring, but that is because blizzard hasn't designed mech correctly. If they were competent they would attempt to fix some of these flaws. You can tell all that from three posts on the B.net forums without seeing the patch notes or having any other information at all? Have you considered a career in the stock market?
I do indeed get paid to analyze stocks, but the stock market is filled with a lot of other analytical guys as well so its not as simple as you make it out to be.
Actually the only assumption I made was the immortal thing which is very very obvious.
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I say yeha, buff tanks. Steppes is so far in the past and photon overcharge with range 13 means no more 1/1/1, hell, even early banshees will die to photon overcharge. Tanks should get their seige damage adjusted, or have their unseiged attack mode changed a little bit to make it good vs light or something.
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Long story short they will try to make mech (with starport/barracks support) work, but if they fail they'll be ok with it. Motivational lol
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On January 09 2013 05:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.
Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that. Ah, the classic design post, taking personal opinion and raising it to a level where the skills of the people making the game are called into question. It is clear that some people will always take issue with everything blizzard says. Edit: grammer is key.
If only you (and DB) were students of good game and unit design like the estimable Hider, then perhaps we wouldn't see such ignorant posts from you! You're not even able to predict the precise ways in which the next patch will fail, lol! Not only will the next patch (the content of which we do not know, of course) be an epic failure at promoting mech in tvp, but it will also serve to drive home the unavoidable truth that DB and Blizzard do not understand good unit or game design.
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On January 09 2013 05:42 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:26 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.
Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that. Ah, the classic design post, taking personal opinion and raising it to a level where the skills of the people making the game are called into question. It is clear that some people will always take issue with everything blizzard says. Edit: grammer is key. If only you (and DB) were students of good game and unit design like the estimable Hider, then perhaps we wouldn't see such ignorant posts from you! You're not even able to predict the precise ways in which the next patch will fail, lol! Not only will the next patch (the content of which we do not know, of course) be an epic failure at promoting mech in tvp, but it will also serve to drive home the unavoidable truth that DB and Blizzard do not understand good unit or game design.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much
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Widow Mine should really have been on the poll.
Tank damage versus Light is sitting at a very particular spot, where if you change it up or down it ruins the dynamic with Lings... and if you make it good enough to survive Chargelots, you completely slaughter Marines, lings, and several other units.
I posted this thread on Reddit a while ago. It explains pretty well why the only smart and easy way to make Mech work is to actually give the Widow Mine some version of Concussive Shells, while playing around with the damage numbers.
Read the thread, you'll probably agree with me that it's the only/best option short of a huge game redesign.
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On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.
Welcome to WoL PvT for Protoss -.-
Mech is already very strong, the only question is how much easier should it be able to get?
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On January 09 2013 05:42 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:26 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.
Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that. Ah, the classic design post, taking personal opinion and raising it to a level where the skills of the people making the game are called into question. It is clear that some people will always take issue with everything blizzard says. Edit: grammer is key. If only you (and DB) were students of good game and unit design like the estimable Hider, then perhaps we wouldn't see such ignorant posts from you! You're not even able to predict the precise ways in which the next patch will fail, lol! Not only will the next patch (the content of which we do not know, of course) be an epic failure at promoting mech in tvp, but it will also serve to drive home the unavoidable truth that DB and Blizzard do not understand good unit or game design.
thank you. Couldn't have said it better. Glad we agree now.
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On January 09 2013 05:49 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.
Welcome to WoL PvT for Protoss -.- Mech is already very strong, the only question is how much easier should it be able to get?
I think tvp (terran goes bio) this at least has the threat of drop play. In wol, however, this got figured out (and terrans weren't capable of doing a lot of damage with drops) which made the early mid game kinda boring.
However, Hots has created a new dynamic as the toss gets ahead early game (as they can safely chrono probes). Terran now has to do damage with bio drops, which is more difficult to defend against due to speed medivacs.
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On January 09 2013 05:42 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:26 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.
Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that. Ah, the classic design post, taking personal opinion and raising it to a level where the skills of the people making the game are called into question. It is clear that some people will always take issue with everything blizzard says. Edit: grammer is key. If only you (and DB) were students of good game and unit design like the estimable Hider, then perhaps we wouldn't see such ignorant posts from you! You're not even able to predict the precise ways in which the next patch will fail, lol! Not only will the next patch (the content of which we do not know, of course) be an epic failure at promoting mech in tvp, but it will also serve to drive home the unavoidable truth that DB and Blizzard do not understand good unit or game design.
And to think we were complaining earlier how a small group of posters fill every thread with negative posts about "game design". And now someone is focusing on a single line posted by DB and complaining it is terrible game design.
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On January 09 2013 05:49 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.
Welcome to WoL PvT for Protoss -.- Mech is already very strong, the only question is how much easier should it be able to get?
Mech is hard to get, very weak to air, lacks any kind of mobility, and is at best average against a frontal assault from toss.
You see barely mech in WoL, then they heavily nerf it in HotS, so I think it is safe to assume without serious boosts you wont see it in HotS.
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On January 09 2013 05:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:42 The_Darkness wrote:On January 09 2013 05:26 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
And Dustin Browder does it again --> demonstrates a terrible understanding of game design. He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting.
Pure mech needs to be viable against pure toss ground. The game will never be interesting before that. Ah, the classic design post, taking personal opinion and raising it to a level where the skills of the people making the game are called into question. It is clear that some people will always take issue with everything blizzard says. Edit: grammer is key. If only you (and DB) were students of good game and unit design like the estimable Hider, then perhaps we wouldn't see such ignorant posts from you! You're not even able to predict the precise ways in which the next patch will fail, lol! Not only will the next patch (the content of which we do not know, of course) be an epic failure at promoting mech in tvp, but it will also serve to drive home the unavoidable truth that DB and Blizzard do not understand good unit or game design. And to think we were complaining earlier how a small group of posters fill every thread with negative posts about "game design". And now someone is focusing on a single line posted by DB and complaining it is terrible game design.
You keep making these posts, yet still haven't tried to come up with an argument for why I am wrong?
If you can't follow my logic, that is fine, but then don't make these kind of posts.
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On January 09 2013 05:28 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:18 Deckard.666 wrote:On January 09 2013 05:08 Hider wrote:
He apparantly doesn't realize that as long as ghosts becomes a neccesity to do mech then this will require too much defensive turtling from the terran for the game to ever come interesting. He never said they intended to make ghosts a necessity, but rather to keep them as a useful unit with a support role even when you were meching. And even if he had said that, I fail to see how that implies that you need "too much defensive turtling for the game to ever become interesting". Im pretty sure that what he implies is that he still wants immortals to counter pure mech (which shouldn't happen as it just make for boring games). As a counter to that he wants terrans to add a few ghosts to emp the immortals. According to Dustin Browder's simplistic game design philosophy he would probably call this dynamic/micro intensive etc. But the thing is, that it actually takes a lot of time for a terran to get both mech units and ghosts out, and untill he does that he has to turtle hardcore. He needs suply depots to wall of his bases and go for uber turtle. If he plays correctly there is also nothing the toss can do, as he can't harass a turtling terran on 3 bases efficiently. Instead, he will just take bases him self and add a few cannons to nullify hellion harass. To sum up, these games are uber uber boring. Also late late game we will never see scenarios where the terran can spread out his tanks and defend multiple locations at once efficiently. Instead he needs to have his whole army together (along with all of the ghosts). Also the terran will never be abel to move out before he has planetaries and has scv's (replaced them by orbituals) so he can safely defend against counterattacks. This will just create these huge deathball scenarios and games like these are the reason why people (and probably dustin browder as well) thinks mech is kinda boring. Indeed, the games are boring, but that is because blizzard hasn't designed mech correctly. If they were competent they would attempt to fix some of these flaws.
Very good analysis of why Ghosts should not be a necessity against Immortals. Immortals>factory = boring games
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On January 09 2013 05:49 LavaLava wrote:Widow Mine should really have been on the poll. Tank damage versus Light is sitting at a very particular spot, where if you change it up or down it ruins the dynamic with Lings... and if you make it good enough to survive Chargelots, you completely slaughter Marines, lings, and several other units. I posted this thread on Reddit a while ago. It explains pretty well why the only smart and easy way to make Mech work is to actually give the Widow Mine some version of Concussive Shells, while playing around with the damage numbers. Read the thread, you'll probably agree with me that it's the only/best option short of a huge game redesign.
Tanks full damage to shield
It's pretty simple really
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On January 09 2013 06:00 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:49 LavaLava wrote:Widow Mine should really have been on the poll. Tank damage versus Light is sitting at a very particular spot, where if you change it up or down it ruins the dynamic with Lings... and if you make it good enough to survive Chargelots, you completely slaughter Marines, lings, and several other units. I posted this thread on Reddit a while ago. It explains pretty well why the only smart and easy way to make Mech work is to actually give the Widow Mine some version of Concussive Shells, while playing around with the damage numbers. Read the thread, you'll probably agree with me that it's the only/best option short of a huge game redesign. Tanks full damage to shield It's pretty simple really
Actually, the most important thing to add to mech is a good anti air. Killing ground with mech is kinda easy actually
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On January 09 2013 06:03 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 06:00 Noocta wrote:On January 09 2013 05:49 LavaLava wrote:Widow Mine should really have been on the poll. Tank damage versus Light is sitting at a very particular spot, where if you change it up or down it ruins the dynamic with Lings... and if you make it good enough to survive Chargelots, you completely slaughter Marines, lings, and several other units. I posted this thread on Reddit a while ago. It explains pretty well why the only smart and easy way to make Mech work is to actually give the Widow Mine some version of Concussive Shells, while playing around with the damage numbers. Read the thread, you'll probably agree with me that it's the only/best option short of a huge game redesign. Tanks full damage to shield It's pretty simple really Actually, the most important thing to add to mech is a good anti air. Killing ground with mech is kinda easy actually
I just argued why ghost-mech shouldn't be a neccessity. Pure mech needs to be viable for the game to be entertaining and pure mech doesn't kill ground efficiently.
But yeh, terrans also needs something to counter protoss air. Not sure how Blizzard will attempt to fix this.
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On January 09 2013 06:00 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:49 LavaLava wrote:Widow Mine should really have been on the poll. Tank damage versus Light is sitting at a very particular spot, where if you change it up or down it ruins the dynamic with Lings... and if you make it good enough to survive Chargelots, you completely slaughter Marines, lings, and several other units. I posted this thread on Reddit a while ago. It explains pretty well why the only smart and easy way to make Mech work is to actually give the Widow Mine some version of Concussive Shells, while playing around with the damage numbers. Read the thread, you'll probably agree with me that it's the only/best option short of a huge game redesign. Tanks full damage to shield It's pretty simple really
Except I'm not sure if that's the type of change Blizzard will ever make. I'm sure that would be filed under "unintuitive" and they may have even stated that in the past.
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I don't get why most of people loves BW TvP so much...
I personally find it most boring MU. Scenarios were very limited compared to others. Long positional play with terran trying to get a perfect siege line and toss pursuing to find a hole in it is quite fun once in a while, but not every single game...
I like DB's view that pure factory play should never be viable. Starting with bio, slowly adding mech units and pursuing a full mech army, but never actually reaching it until very very late would be the perfect design for me.
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EPT
