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On January 10 2013 17:36 Finnz wrote:
i dont want mech to be the only unit comp that gets played in hots...the games that we will see will be a lot more boring and stagnant, atleast with bio its a lot more micro and multitasking involved. Mech in my opinion just needs an extra factory unit that tanks and deals enough of the damage needed to make it more viable for the matchup. In my opinion the warhound needs to come back with some added nerfs. But the sound of blizzard trying to make mech more powerful worries me due to tvz and tvt being a lot more varied. Now with any buffs to siege tanks/hellbat's/thors or whatever mech unit it is going to make it harder for both zerg and terran vs terran matchups if you are in a bio vs mech situation. And so therefore making mech the primary unit composition to go for in every matchup is not going to be good for the game due to people actually wanting to watch fun matches and entertaining scenarios. Even for players this is bad unless you just completely hate going any bio units because you cant either micro or just have always preferred mech's style of play.
There's this misconception that mech, if viable, must lead to boring, uninteresting games. On the contrary, mech in BW introduced a lot of cool early game aggression and timings where both players had an opportunity to showcase their micro. Positional play IS entertaining and creates far more interesting scenarios than "Army 1 attacks Army 2. Cast spells. End." Bio play in TvP is often incredibly stale, tosses have figured out the 10-minute medivac poke and can shut down drops if good. So what happens is that you have the two sides not engaging until maxed and then one battle decides the game. That's the epitome of boring. It's much cooler to see players fighting over a position, because that position is critical to the outcome of the game. But that can't happen if terran can't control space.
Also, what you're saying is a strawman. No one is suggesting that mech be the only composition in all matchups. Just that it be an option. In an ideal world, players could opt for mech based on the map if it were particularly strong.
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On January 10 2013 18:04 gh0st wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 17:36 Finnz wrote:
i dont want mech to be the only unit comp that gets played in hots...the games that we will see will be a lot more boring and stagnant, atleast with bio its a lot more micro and multitasking involved. Mech in my opinion just needs an extra factory unit that tanks and deals enough of the damage needed to make it more viable for the matchup. In my opinion the warhound needs to come back with some added nerfs. But the sound of blizzard trying to make mech more powerful worries me due to tvz and tvt being a lot more varied. Now with any buffs to siege tanks/hellbat's/thors or whatever mech unit it is going to make it harder for both zerg and terran vs terran matchups if you are in a bio vs mech situation. And so therefore making mech the primary unit composition to go for in every matchup is not going to be good for the game due to people actually wanting to watch fun matches and entertaining scenarios. Even for players this is bad unless you just completely hate going any bio units because you cant either micro or just have always preferred mech's style of play. There's this misconception that mech, if viable, must lead to boring, uninteresting games. On the contrary, mech in BW introduced a lot of cool early game aggression and timings where both players had an opportunity to showcase their micro. Positional play IS entertaining and creates far more interesting scenarios than "Army 1 attacks Army 2. Cast spells. End." Bio play in TvP is often incredibly stale, tosses have figured out the 10-minute medivac poke and can shut down drops if good. So what happens is that you have the two sides not engaging until maxed and then one battle decides the game. That's the epitome of boring. It's much cooler to see players fighting over a position, because that position is critical to the outcome of the game. But that can't happen if terran can't control space. Also, what you're saying is a strawman. No one is suggesting that mech be the only composition in all matchups. Just that it be an option. In an ideal world, players could opt for mech based on the map if it were particularly strong.
Not really, the majority of times when someone went mech they sat there for 20mins and just maxed upgrades and did a "timing attack" it was pretty stale and boring. Korean pro's were monsters so they did completely unorthadox things against mech but due to the units available for P in sc2 that won't be possible (i.e. absence of rev's and arbitors). Instead it will probably turn into the terran a-moving with his heavily upgraded mech army.
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the supply of Siege tank should be reduced 3 to 2.
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On January 10 2013 18:04 gh0st wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 17:36 Finnz wrote:
i dont want mech to be the only unit comp that gets played in hots...the games that we will see will be a lot more boring and stagnant, atleast with bio its a lot more micro and multitasking involved. Mech in my opinion just needs an extra factory unit that tanks and deals enough of the damage needed to make it more viable for the matchup. In my opinion the warhound needs to come back with some added nerfs. But the sound of blizzard trying to make mech more powerful worries me due to tvz and tvt being a lot more varied. Now with any buffs to siege tanks/hellbat's/thors or whatever mech unit it is going to make it harder for both zerg and terran vs terran matchups if you are in a bio vs mech situation. And so therefore making mech the primary unit composition to go for in every matchup is not going to be good for the game due to people actually wanting to watch fun matches and entertaining scenarios. Even for players this is bad unless you just completely hate going any bio units because you cant either micro or just have always preferred mech's style of play. There's this misconception that mech, if viable, must lead to boring, uninteresting games. On the contrary, mech in BW introduced a lot of cool early game aggression and timings where both players had an opportunity to showcase their micro. Positional play IS entertaining and creates far more interesting scenarios than "Army 1 attacks Army 2. Cast spells. End." Bio play in TvP is often incredibly stale, tosses have figured out the 10-minute medivac poke and can shut down drops if good. So what happens is that you have the two sides not engaging until maxed and then one battle decides the game. That's the epitome of boring. It's much cooler to see players fighting over a position, because that position is critical to the outcome of the game. But that can't happen if terran can't control space. Also, what you're saying is a strawman. No one is suggesting that mech be the only composition in all matchups. Just that it be an option. In an ideal world, players could opt for mech based on the map if it were particularly strong.
The timing window heavy early game depended on early bio rushes being essentially cheese, and bio being pretty bad in the match up in general. Protoss had map presence at all stages of the game in BW. In wings of liberty you have to turtle or deathball anytime after your literal first couple of units are out, save for dropping suicide squads out of a warp prism.
I guess protoss has a couple more scouting options in HotS. They're going to need them to be robust if we want to preserve WoL bio and try to make mech work like BW.
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I feel like the siege mode upgrade destruction basically tells terrans:
Hey terrans, you no longer need to spend 100/100 on siege, so get Ghost academy right away, and pump a few ghosts.
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On January 14 2013 13:39 naastyOne wrote:
I feel like the siege mode upgrade destruction basically tells terrans:
Hey terrans, you no longer need to spend 100/100 on siege, so get Ghost academy right away, and pump a few ghosts.
getting a ghost academy just feels like going biomech than... MECH
~_~
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On January 10 2013 21:26 bLueSkY) wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 18:04 gh0st wrote:On January 10 2013 17:36 Finnz wrote:
i dont want mech to be the only unit comp that gets played in hots...the games that we will see will be a lot more boring and stagnant, atleast with bio its a lot more micro and multitasking involved. Mech in my opinion just needs an extra factory unit that tanks and deals enough of the damage needed to make it more viable for the matchup. In my opinion the warhound needs to come back with some added nerfs. But the sound of blizzard trying to make mech more powerful worries me due to tvz and tvt being a lot more varied. Now with any buffs to siege tanks/hellbat's/thors or whatever mech unit it is going to make it harder for both zerg and terran vs terran matchups if you are in a bio vs mech situation. And so therefore making mech the primary unit composition to go for in every matchup is not going to be good for the game due to people actually wanting to watch fun matches and entertaining scenarios. Even for players this is bad unless you just completely hate going any bio units because you cant either micro or just have always preferred mech's style of play. There's this misconception that mech, if viable, must lead to boring, uninteresting games. On the contrary, mech in BW introduced a lot of cool early game aggression and timings where both players had an opportunity to showcase their micro. Positional play IS entertaining and creates far more interesting scenarios than "Army 1 attacks Army 2. Cast spells. End." Bio play in TvP is often incredibly stale, tosses have figured out the 10-minute medivac poke and can shut down drops if good. So what happens is that you have the two sides not engaging until maxed and then one battle decides the game. That's the epitome of boring. It's much cooler to see players fighting over a position, because that position is critical to the outcome of the game. But that can't happen if terran can't control space. Also, what you're saying is a strawman. No one is suggesting that mech be the only composition in all matchups. Just that it be an option. In an ideal world, players could opt for mech based on the map if it were particularly strong. Not really, the majority of times when someone went mech they sat there for 20mins and just maxed upgrades and did a "timing attack" it was pretty stale and boring. Korean pro's were monsters so they did completely unorthadox things against mech but due to the units available for P in sc2 that won't be possible (i.e. absence of rev's and arbitors). Instead it will probably turn into the terran a-moving with his heavily upgraded mech army.
BW TvP wasn't boring... At least not when I was following the pro-scene closely. Most terrans followed Flash in doing 2-2 timings. So yea, there was turtling. But you still had constant vulture harass, placing mines, probing all over the map. You usually had the toss doing a reaver or DT harass which was exciting. And when the timing push hit, it was anything but boring. Toss had several tactics (zealot bombs, storm/reaver drops on the army, etc) to break the push. On the terran side there was a lot of positioning and insane amount of multitasking going on. And usually you had action happening in several places on the map, not just in one spot.
Also you did have some terrans doing aggressive 2-fact (ForGG basically only 2 factory pushed in TvP for long while) or 4-factory timings. Those games were really fun.
Contrast to TvP bio in SC2. If the toss doesn't do an all-in, and the terran is playing standard, there is zero action for 10 minutes of game time, a couple minutes of drop play depending on how aggressive the terran is and how on-top-of-shit the toss is. Assuming neither side takes crippling damage, it's a turtle fest until 200/200. Then we get to watch to deathballs circle each other until The Battle and the game is over in about 15 seconds. Those fights boil down to composition and whether the terran hits emps/snipes. It's just not as entertaining...
If mech is viable in SC2 you will not see a-moving mech armies, because that's not how mech armies work. Unlike stimmed bio, tanks have to siege and unsiege.
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On January 14 2013 13:39 naastyOne wrote:
I feel like the siege mode upgrade destruction basically tells terrans:
Hey terrans, you no longer need to spend 100/100 on siege, so get Ghost academy right away, and pump a few ghosts.
Maybe it is basically telling you have to spend 100/100 less on siege tech and it has nothing whatsoever to do with ghosts?
Pumping out a few ghosts directly is imo just a very bad idea. Not because ghosts are useless with mech, but because several ghosts that early in a game (remember a bio player wont have ghosts at that stage while having far more gas to spend) hampers your tank production so bad you end up with a bio army and 2 tanks.
Ghosts can be helpfull, but making them that early in game means you only have support and nothing to kill the toss units.
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EPT
