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On January 04 2013 15:51 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS.
Phoenixes were effective in WoL.
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On January 05 2013 04:43 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 15:51 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS. Phoenixes were effective in WoL.
archons are also pretty good
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so all the talk about how we can break up the deathball has gotten us... another deathball?
cmon blizzard. The changes so far in hots are dumb and poorly designed if you ask me, nothing has been done at all to make the game more interesting to play/watch.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 05 2013 04:14 J.E.G. wrote:
It's very strong, yes, but this is a problem that is solvable by strategy rather than a patch. Zerg's just need to experiment more instead of defaulting to broodlord/infestor for every single PvZ. Not sure about the terran side of things
The problem is that zerg don't have anti-caster abilities against templars
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On January 05 2013 01:27 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 01:14 tehemperorer wrote:
It's a frightening unit composition, but in reality it isn't that bad. The best response I've had in beta was from a GM player who responded the right way with a lot of corruptors during the time I was on 3 stargates but not Fleet Beacon tech yet. He soon after got swarm hosts, and I couldn't for the life of me stop the locust waves because the msc would get sniped while trying to detect and I had to focus on the swarm hosts instead of the corruptors.
Also, I really laugh at the "efficient" mineral dump in zealots... you're completely wasting hundreds of minerals if you zealot warp-in when fighting swarm hosts. That's not to say don't warp in zealots, because you have to, but come on.
TLDR: Masters/GM level there are responses to it and it isn't as bad as you think. Play the beta more. I disagree with this, void rays demolish corruptors horribly now. They are not a great response to heavy stargate play imo, unless your opponent has skimped on void rays for some reason
Yeah, holds true in space with no other units around. Reality is a ton of corruptors are a good response because you can't attack with gate/VR if you're not doing an early timing push, which skytoss is not. You actually get fleet beacon and ht because corruptors make it hard to attack.
In the game I was talking about, the other player got a ton of corruptors so I couldn't trade properly with him, then delayed until swarm hosts and just pushed with them. Corruptors were sniping my msc and I didn't have time to get obs in place before my 4th was destroyed so it was gg.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Rename that 3-word title to... Templarest, like short name Broodfestors
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On January 05 2013 04:55 Aveng3r wrote:
so all the talk about how we can break up the deathball has gotten us... another deathball?
cmon blizzard. The changes so far in hots are dumb and poorly designed if you ask me, nothing has been done at all to make the game more interesting to play/watch.
Deathball is basically unavoidable late game, no matter what you do. There are lots more options for early and mid game to really take advantage of small groups of units and multitasking. Even if you have the best designed RTS in the world, there will come a point where each players' huge armies have to meet.
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On January 05 2013 06:37 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 04:55 Aveng3r wrote:
so all the talk about how we can break up the deathball has gotten us... another deathball?
cmon blizzard. The changes so far in hots are dumb and poorly designed if you ask me, nothing has been done at all to make the game more interesting to play/watch. Deathball is basically unavoidable late game, no matter what you do. There are lots more options for early and mid game to really take advantage of small groups of units and multitasking. Even if you have the best designed RTS in the world, there will come a point where each players' huge armies have to meet.
yeah you are right about that. i think he means unbeatable deathball in WoL = BL infestor, in HOTS = airtoss + HT. but its still 2,5 months and there will be numerous patches after release. no problem to balance things out.
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If three bases are enough to create your race's perfect army composition, then the new maps need to give zerg and terran easy ways to force continuous engagements. A huge number of attack angles, bases with greater separation, I don't know, but there are always things that map makers can do to help fix balance issues.
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A HOTS GM named brownra did this to me once and it was the most painful game in the world. He put 2 cannons at his nat, 5 cannons at his 3rd, and 12 cannons at his 4th and like 30 cannons at his 5th. The only minerals he spent other than voidrays, carriers, tempests, and storm was 1 warp prism with like 6 warped in zealots. The rest was spent entirely on cannons. He took his half of the map and my broodlord infestor (pre infestor nerf) corruptor army couldnt touch his army whatsoever.
I even had my own 30+ spines/spores and I made like 3 remax broodlord corruptor infestor armies and none of them made a dent. After almost a 1 hour 20min game being mined out for 30min I attacked into his cannons and storm and lost.
I tried hydras, infested terran nydus, nothing worked. I had 3/3 air and 3/3/3 ground, ofcourse he had 3/3/3 air as well. It was a battle of who won't attack and it was extremely frustrating.
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
On January 05 2013 04:43 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 15:51 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS. Phoenixes were effective in WoL.
I think things HAVE to be powerful. There is a very fine line between being overpowered and being bad to useless. A lot of people have knee jerk reactions without realizing how much the game or unit interactions can evolve in time.
On game launch, many considered Marauders to be overpowered vs protoss for example, and through metagame development alone, they are not used nearly as much, nor really feared at all.
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On January 05 2013 07:56 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 04:43 Sabu113 wrote:On January 04 2013 15:51 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS. Phoenixes were effective in WoL. I think things HAVE to be powerful. There is a very fine line between being overpowered and being bad to useless. A lot of people have knee jerk reactions without realizing how much the game or unit interactions can evolve in time. On game launch, many considered Marauders to be overpowered vs protoss for example, and through metagame development alone, they are not used nearly as much, nor really feared at all.
Not that i agree with anything in this thread but this isn't really a fair comparison. If we were still playing on maps like steppes of war marauder proxies or straight up rushes amongst a lot of other things would be a bit ridiculous. And thats not even including all the balance changes we've had that affected this relationship like zealot charge buff, archon buff, rax build time changes, concussive research changes.
Blizzard avoided straight up nerfing the marauder, which was risky but ended up being a good call, but the relationship the unit has with protoss was addressed indirectly most definitely.
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On January 05 2013 01:30 larse wrote:
Ninja buffs to void ray in the last patch makes it the most powerful air unit in the game. All anti-air ground units can't beat void ray in the same supply or costs.
Charged beam only gives +damage to armored, not to anything else (correct me if I'm wrong), so Hydras, Queens, and Marines all should have no problems with them.
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Italy12246 Posts
While that is true, Protoss builds have evolved heavily too. From 1gate expand, to the emphasis on armor upgrades (and faster upgrades in general), to templar openings (which were popular only for a bit before the KA nerf, and then again after the archon buff and recently), to army compositions (less stalkers more zealots), we've done our fair share of innovations to beat marauders.
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With Zerg you chain fungal the Interceptors then Fly around behind the Carrier and kill them with corrupters...
Or you Chainfungal the Interceptors then Pull the Carrier with Viper and kill them with Hydras while the interceptors cant move...
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Come to think of it, it's not that bad... we'll see some entirely new playstyles, and while this build may be turtle-style, it's a lot harder to get than BL Infestor, which may open very interesting PvZs. Nothing for Terran, though :C
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I don't get it ... why do ppl still complain about a race when it's still called a "beta" !?
Don't even touch the word imbalance if the final version of the game is not even out yet...
I personally think that Terran has a huge early game advantage, until you scout and find Terran, especially on a 4 player map, it's almost impossible to hold early agressions, most of the Protoss die directly and Zerg loses most of the mining time or has to invest into other units to be safe and can't really drone up
Edit: sry for double post
I'm complaining because this version of the beta is imbalanced. I can and most certainly will call Protoss imba.
The beta is half about balance so if you can't call something imbalanced then the game is perfectly fine and needs to be released right now. You find the imbalances and get rid of them in a beta so you have to be able to confront the imbalances and not be fucking scared of talking about them.
I do play the beta and all these idiots making the bullshit "don't complain unless you're in it" are retards. You can watch streams and get a good idea of the beta meta. More so than playing it because most people aren't gm so watching someone play gm will show you a higher level of play that you won't be exposed to on the normal bronze-whatever-you-are ladder.
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Yeah right now air toss is definitely broken in PvZ. I don't think a zerg can possibly win versus air toss + HT.
PvP started to be interesting with Tempest (no more colossi war) but with the Voidray buff now it is Voidray vs Voidray. T_T
And in PvT, I don't think a toss air nerf would be a bad thing, it's useless vs bio anyway and you almost never see mech.
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On January 05 2013 07:26 TheGreenMachine wrote:
A HOTS GM named brownra did this to me once and it was the most painful game in the world. He put 2 cannons at his nat, 5 cannons at his 3rd, and 12 cannons at his 4th and like 30 cannons at his 5th. The only minerals he spent other than voidrays, carriers, tempests, and storm was 1 warp prism with like 6 warped in zealots. The rest was spent entirely on cannons. He took his half of the map and my broodlord infestor (pre infestor nerf) corruptor army couldnt touch his army whatsoever.
I even had my own 30+ spines/spores and I made like 3 remax broodlord corruptor infestor armies and none of them made a dent. After almost a 1 hour 20min game being mined out for 30min I attacked into his cannons and storm and lost.
I tried hydras, infested terran nydus, nothing worked. I had 3/3 air and 3/3/3 ground, ofcourse he had 3/3/3 air as well. It was a battle of who won't attack and it was extremely frustrating.
You should be trying to kill expansions, not his army. Fighting into it is a bad idea.
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Biggest difference between zerg BL/Infestor situation in WoL and Toss air in HotS is that a zerg could take the entire map while doing it. That is impossible for protoss even by not doing some kind of heavy composition strat.
That's where the balance lie. Low resources, strong compositions/units, more resources abit weaker compositions/units.
Imho it's just a matter of tuning the edge, the dynamic to me seems good. It was the same in BW.. I remember a game between Jaedong and free, and Jaedong was all over the place, had sick eco, and multi task, but free just kept hanging in there with a sick reaver/archon lategame composition that JD tried to run around. He couldnt engage it AT ALL and eventually died when he tried too. Sick game by free! I remember how JD was sweating like a madman after that game - it hurts to think about it =(.
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EPT
