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On January 04 2013 07:11 TheSambassador wrote:
This is 100% theorycraft, would likely require a huge amount of good control from the Protoss player, and is one of the most gas-consuming compositions that anybody has ever thought of.
You're worrying about something that hasn't even been attempted yet. You have no replays, and just think that this is potentially broken. This is a silly thread.
Zerg can get into Infestor Broodlord because of their production mechanic. They can build 10 corruptors as they start their Greater Spire, and then can morph them all to broodlords when it's done. They can make 6+ infestors at a time to assist their Brood Lords.
If you're "transitioning" into this composition as Protoss, you're going to need at LEAST 3 Stargates (450 gas), and a TON of time. There is no way to create this army quickly enough, EVEN if you have the resources of a 4-base protoss.
Out of all the things to worry about, this composition seems like a really silly one.
Did you not see parting vs b4 in GSL, and thats without tempest,
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On February 16 2013 11:05 Tommyth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 08:10 Qikz wrote:On February 16 2013 03:04 Xequecal wrote:On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals. Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting. The more and more you post, the less and less likely it seems you've actually played the game. Collosus can hit hellbats who are too far forward without being hit by tanks, completely for free. They also hit way more than 2 of them unless they're spread. What you've said about storm also is completely wrong, well placed storms against hellbats will hit atleast 6 from my experience. Also stalkers and Immortals do low damage to hellbats, but guess what. They both have higher range and can kite hellbats if you bait them away from the tanks. It's funny how u say others have not played the game while u didnt play it yourself. Mass siege tank + hellbat can be actually a-moved vs any kind of toss ground army. Before stalkers or even mighty immortals kill anything, any moderately good terran will have withdrawn his hellbats back to tanks. And seriously, if u're so fucking good, please post your replays and make your arguments worth a penny. You know, it's easy to call somebody stupid, especially when you're stupid yourself.
Sorry, but how can a siege tank based army be a moved when it needs to siege first. The points made by the person you quoted make much more sense than what you just wrote. The immobility can be abused and that's how you whittle down a mech army.
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On February 16 2013 03:04 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals. Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting.
Right, so timewarp is irrelevant against hellbats, a melee unit that supposedly kills your entire ground composition. Well, got nothing to say about that.
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Obviously it's going to be insanely hard to get this kind of composition due to the gas cost, but if they do, like many are saying, I can't really think of any other composition that would kill it.
As Terran, I guess I would try to nuke it? :/
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
Have you even played the game? Archons destroy hellbats.
Archons cost 100/300. Even if you give gas a 1:1 value ratio with minerals - which is not possible, 3 workers on gas mine 12-16 in the time it takes to get 20-25 minerals, you are talking 3 archons vs 12 hellbats.. A pretty tricky fight.
If you give gas 2:1 value ratio of minerals, you are talking 5 archons vs 35 hellbats.
Useless theorycrafting, but its funny to me.
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On February 16 2013 14:38 Cyro wrote:Archons cost 100/300. Even if you give gas a 1:1 value ratio with minerals - which is not possible, 3 workers on gas mine 12-16 in the time it takes to get 20-25 minerals, you are talking 3 archons vs 12 hellbats.. A pretty tricky fight. If you give gas 2:1 value ratio of minerals, you are talking 5 archons vs 35 hellbats. Useless theorycrafting, but its funny to me.
DT route are a viable unit to build Archons with 250/250.
They are also quicker to produce as the reduced the build time of the dark shrine.
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On February 16 2013 15:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 14:38 Cyro wrote: Have you even played the game? Archons destroy hellbats. Archons cost 100/300. Even if you give gas a 1:1 value ratio with minerals - which is not possible, 3 workers on gas mine 12-16 in the time it takes to get 20-25 minerals, you are talking 3 archons vs 12 hellbats.. A pretty tricky fight. If you give gas 2:1 value ratio of minerals, you are talking 5 archons vs 35 hellbats. Useless theorycrafting, but its funny to me. DT route are a viable unit to build Archons with 250/250. They are also quicker to produce as the reduced the build time of the dark shrine.
They reduced the cost, not the build time. Are you crazy?
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On February 16 2013 15:42 ant-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 15:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 16 2013 14:38 Cyro wrote: Have you even played the game? Archons destroy hellbats. Archons cost 100/300. Even if you give gas a 1:1 value ratio with minerals - which is not possible, 3 workers on gas mine 12-16 in the time it takes to get 20-25 minerals, you are talking 3 archons vs 12 hellbats.. A pretty tricky fight. If you give gas 2:1 value ratio of minerals, you are talking 5 archons vs 35 hellbats. Useless theorycrafting, but its funny to me. DT route are a viable unit to build Archons with 250/250. They are also quicker to produce as the reduced the build time of the dark shrine. They reduced the cost, not the build time. Are you crazy?
A bit far to call me crazy over that...
Any case the gas savings on the Dark shrine DOES result in a quicker archon, if not from the Darkshrine's build time.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 16 2013 11:05 Tommyth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 08:10 Qikz wrote:On February 16 2013 03:04 Xequecal wrote:On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals. Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting. The more and more you post, the less and less likely it seems you've actually played the game. Collosus can hit hellbats who are too far forward without being hit by tanks, completely for free. They also hit way more than 2 of them unless they're spread. What you've said about storm also is completely wrong, well placed storms against hellbats will hit atleast 6 from my experience. Also stalkers and Immortals do low damage to hellbats, but guess what. They both have higher range and can kite hellbats if you bait them away from the tanks. It's funny how u say others have not played the game while u didnt play it yourself. Mass siege tank + hellbat can be actually a-moved vs any kind of toss ground army. Before stalkers or even mighty immortals kill anything, any moderately good terran will have withdrawn his hellbats back to tanks. And seriously, if u're so fucking good, please post your replays and make your arguments worth a penny. You know, it's easy to call somebody stupid, especially when you're stupid yourself.
Over the past 3 weeks I've been playing 10+ games a day, I go mech every single game and I'm diamond level. I'm not even calling him stupid, I'm saying his wrong, which he is. I've had my stuff stormed, I've had my zealots kited back if I don't pull them back quick enough or they're already engaged in a fight and I've had archon/immortal destroy my army if I have no EMP.
Of course hellbats will be pulled back, that's the point of them. A terran mech army should be hard to engage, it's supposed to be a strong army and if you flank from different angles you'll have a much better time.
The gas cost of stuff against mech is irrelavent considering how expensive tanks are and also the fact toss can mass expand to gas bases (especially later game) as Mech isn't fast enough to go punish an expo with cannons.
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On February 16 2013 19:03 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 11:05 Tommyth wrote:On February 16 2013 08:10 Qikz wrote:On February 16 2013 03:04 Xequecal wrote:On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals. Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting. The more and more you post, the less and less likely it seems you've actually played the game. Collosus can hit hellbats who are too far forward without being hit by tanks, completely for free. They also hit way more than 2 of them unless they're spread. What you've said about storm also is completely wrong, well placed storms against hellbats will hit atleast 6 from my experience. Also stalkers and Immortals do low damage to hellbats, but guess what. They both have higher range and can kite hellbats if you bait them away from the tanks. It's funny how u say others have not played the game while u didnt play it yourself. Mass siege tank + hellbat can be actually a-moved vs any kind of toss ground army. Before stalkers or even mighty immortals kill anything, any moderately good terran will have withdrawn his hellbats back to tanks. And seriously, if u're so fucking good, please post your replays and make your arguments worth a penny. You know, it's easy to call somebody stupid, especially when you're stupid yourself. Over the past 3 weeks I've been playing 10+ games a day, I go mech every single game and I'm diamond level. I'm not even calling him stupid, I'm saying his wrong, which he is. I've had my stuff stormed, I've had my zealots kited back if I don't pull them back quick enough or they're already engaged in a fight and I've had archon/immortal destroy my army if I have no EMP. Of course hellbats will be pulled back, that's the point of them. A terran mech army should be hard to engage, it's supposed to be a strong army and if you flank from different angles you'll have a much better time. The gas cost of stuff against mech is irrelavent considering how expensive tanks are and also the fact toss can mass expand to gas bases (especially later game) as Mech isn't fast enough to go punish an expo with cannons.
The more I read from you and Hattori_Hanzo the more I am convinced that you should leave this discussion as you don't seem to have anything of value to add. Want to see the way you argue? Here, I'll show you:
Archons destroy Hellbats, right?
On February 15 2013 21:57 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +Archons do have bonus to bio but at 300 gas they're still not effective at all against 100 mineral hellbats. Have you even played the game? Archons destroy hellbats.
Someone points out that the cost ratio of Archons(HT) versus Hellbats is 7:1 and that 1 archon won't beat 7 hellbats.
On February 16 2013 15:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
DT route are a viable unit to build Archons with 250/250.
They are also quicker to produce as the reduced the build time of the dark shrine.
To which then someone objects that the dark shrine has reduced cost, not reduced build time. Oh, and DT Archons have an even worse cost ratio against hellbats with 7.5:1 when you count gas twice as valuable.
On February 16 2013 16:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
A bit far to call me crazy over that...
Any case the gas savings on the Dark shrine DOES result in a quicker archon, if not from the Darkshrine's build time.
Just admit that you were wrong, please.
Hellbat Micro Time!
On February 16 2013 08:10 Qikz wrote:
Collosus can hit hellbats who are too far forward without being hit by tanks, completely for free.
Also stalkers and Immortals do low damage to hellbats, but guess what. They both have higher range and can kite hellbats if you bait them away from the tanks.
Someone responds by saying that any decent player would keep his Hellbats back and not let the enemy kite them.
On February 16 2013 19:03 Qikz wrote:
Of course hellbats will be pulled back, that's the point of them. A terran mech army should be hard to engage, it's supposed to be a strong army[...]
That's kind... schizophrenic, don't you think? At first you say that you can kite them EASY and that's how one should handle them. Once someone points out that a good player will just leave the hellbats at their tanks you proceed to state that OF COURSE you should not be able to kite them. That just doesn't make sense to me, sorry.
And I'd like to add just a few things to the discussion directly regarding what you said:
The gas cost of stuff against mech is irrelavent considering how expensive tanks are and also the fact toss can mass expand to gas bases (especially later game) as Mech isn't fast enough to go punish an expo with cannons.
Gas is the bread and butter of protoss. It does matter considering that it's incredibly hard to gain proper map control in order to mass expand against terran. If anything I have seen it the other way around.
And I'd like to object about mech having a hard time punishing mass expanding. 8 Hellions with blueflame upgrade will annihilate any probes at a protoss expansion with a decent amount of cannons. 8 Zealots on the other hand won't really do that great against a planetary fortress. You see, when you go mech you already have those hellions and factories with tech lab. This is not WoL, in this expansion there is a use for hellions in an actual fight.
And regarding tech switches:
Can you even do a 7:30min marine/medivac drop timing attack into tank +mass marine mid-game push?
That really depends on what you define as "mid game". I just assume that you want to compare protoss and terran tech paths and want to show that terran has a harder time doing that.
That example is actually really poorly picked. Depending on what you define as "mid game" you can actually do just that. You already have a tech lab on one of the barracks, you already have a factory and you don't have to research siege tech anymore. You see, a protoss can't do a voidray/gateway bust into colossi push during the mid game while upgrading both ground and air.
The reason why we haven't seen doing terrans tech switches is because in WoL you only needed either mech or bio. HotS on the other hand is still in it's infancy and we might just see that over the course of the next months or years.
Both races pay dear money to make a tech switch, transitioning from stargate into colossi into high templar actually takes much much longer for a protoss player.
You two guys, I wouldn't have minded for you having your opinion and experiences if you would treat other writers in this thread with respect despite them not sharing your attitude. Just look at it!
On February 15 2013 21:57 Qikz wrote:
Have you even played the game?
On February 16 2013 00:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Your lack of experience is showing.
On February 16 2013 00:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
[...]mistaken ones coming from poor play.
On February 16 2013 00:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Why not learn how to play before commenting?
On February 16 2013 08:10 Qikz wrote:
The more and more you post, the less and less likely it seems you've actually played the game. .
On February 16 2013 19:03 Qikz wrote:
[...]I'm saying his wrong, which he is.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I didn't mean to try and disrespect him, but I honestly felt that with his opinions, which I agree he has every right to have, completely contradicts any experiences I've actually had playing the game. That's the only reason why I felt the need to come out and say that I honestly felt he hadn't play the game.
Maybe my experiences are different to other players, but I've played plenty of sample games since the beginning of the beta with mech and from my own personal play and also speaking to other terrans/toss that I practice with in game I felt that he was kindly mistaken and I wanted to try and explain why. My apologies to you Xequecal, hopefully you can forgive my brash nature in my posts in this thread.
I honestly think hidden among my brash posting that there is a lot of truth to what I'm saying. Yes, hellbats will be kept behind the tanks, but if you engage, you can pull away and the hellbats won't catch up with you. If they're in front of the tanks collosus can poke at them and also if they over extend with them they are perfectly kitable by stalkers/immortals. Although personally I think Stalkers shouldn't be used in a composition against tank/hellbat as I've personally found them to just die extremely quickly to tank volleys when protoss players engage me.
Also to counter your point about hellions annihilating probes, the majority of protoss players I've been playing use pylon walls to block off entrances to their expansions and doing a damn good job of making it hard for me to ever hurass later in the game. Another thing that I've personally experienced is as mech is so weak early on (especially tank/hellbat at low tank numbers), it's really hard for the protoss player not to have map control enough to be able to expand all over the place. I guess this depends on the map however.
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On February 16 2013 21:42 Nezgar wrote:
To which then someone objects that the dark shrine has reduced cost, not reduced build time. Oh, and DT Archons have an even worse cost ratio against hellbats with 7.5:1 when you count gas twice as valuable.
So two 125m 125g invisible unit unlocked by a 150m 150g tech structure to produce an Archon is more inefficient and slower than two 100m 150g spellcaster unit unlocked by a 100m 200g tech structure?
Let's do the math for the first Archon:
+ Show Spoiler +Dark Templar x2
125m 125g x2 = 250m 250g
+ Dark Shrine
150m 150g = 400m 400g
vs.
High Templar
50m 150g x2 = 100m 300g
+ Templar Archive
150m 200g = 250m 500g
I admit I am wrong on the build time, and yes, DTs will take twice as long to appear than HTs.
Since gas is such a precious asset, once the structures kicks in, using 1500 gas as standard,
+ Show Spoiler +Dark Templar x2
125m 125g x2 = 250m 250g
1500m & 1500g ÷ 250m & 250g = 6
vs.
High Templar
50m 150g x2 = 100m 300g
1500m & 1500g ÷ 100m & 300g = 5
Remainder: 1000 minerals
You would have 6 available archons whereas the HT route would only have made 5 in time for a hellbat/medivac/siegetank push. Yes, there's a remainder of 1000 minerals in the HT route, good for 10 more zealots, we all agree, they would not even dent the mech ball with decent numbers of hellbats.
Please recheck your math.
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On February 16 2013 22:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 21:42 Nezgar wrote:
To which then someone objects that the dark shrine has reduced cost, not reduced build time. Oh, and DT Archons have an even worse cost ratio against hellbats with 7.5:1 when you count gas twice as valuable.
So two 125m 125g invisible unit unlocked by a 150m 150g tech structure to produce an Archon is more inefficient and slower than two 100m 150g spellcaster unit unlocked by a 100m 200g tech structure? Let's do the math for the first Archon: + Show Spoiler +Dark Templar x2
125m 125g x2 = 250m 250g
+ Dark Shrine
150m 150g = 400m 400g
vs.
High Templar
100m 150g x2 = 200m 300g
+ Templar Archive
150m 200g = 350m 500g
I admit I am wrong on the build time, and yes, DTs will take twice as long to appear than HTs. Since gas is such a precious asset, once the structures kicks in, using 3000 gas a standard, You would have 12 available archons whereas the HT route would only have made 10 in time for a hellbat/medivac/siegetank push. Please recheck your math.
templars are 50/150... sry bro.
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On February 16 2013 22:17 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 22:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 16 2013 21:42 Nezgar wrote:
To which then someone objects that the dark shrine has reduced cost, not reduced build time. Oh, and DT Archons have an even worse cost ratio against hellbats with 7.5:1 when you count gas twice as valuable.
So two 125m 125g invisible unit unlocked by a 150m 150g tech structure to produce an Archon is more inefficient and slower than two 100m 150g spellcaster unit unlocked by a 100m 200g tech structure? Let's do the math for the first Archon: + Show Spoiler +Dark Templar x2
125m 125g x2 = 250m 250g
+ Dark Shrine
150m 150g = 400m 400g
vs.
High Templar
100m 150g x2 = 200m 300g
+ Templar Archive
150m 200g = 350m 500g
I admit I am wrong on the build time, and yes, DTs will take twice as long to appear than HTs. Since gas is such a precious asset, once the structures kicks in, using 3000 gas a standard, You would have 12 available archons whereas the HT route would only have made 10 in time for a hellbat/medivac/siegetank push. Please recheck your math. templars are 50/150... sry bro.
Thanks, I corrected the earlier thread. Zealots are not very good against well-spread hellbats in sufficient numbers.
Also, this thread has gotten extremely derailed.
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I still think the ultimate deathball is mass ravens and the HotS raven supply should be 3.... I can't wait for people to discover a safe way to go mass raven, the QQ is going to be amazing.
Anyway, templar voidray tempest is overhyped, I almost never see it in my laddering or pro streams, that should not be the case if it were "that good", for example, like Blood/infestor in WoL where you see it in.... every match that goes past early game.
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On February 16 2013 22:21 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 22:17 rpgalon wrote:On February 16 2013 22:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 16 2013 21:42 Nezgar wrote:
To which then someone objects that the dark shrine has reduced cost, not reduced build time. Oh, and DT Archons have an even worse cost ratio against hellbats with 7.5:1 when you count gas twice as valuable.
So two 125m 125g invisible unit unlocked by a 150m 150g tech structure to produce an Archon is more inefficient and slower than two 100m 150g spellcaster unit unlocked by a 100m 200g tech structure? Let's do the math for the first Archon: + Show Spoiler +Dark Templar x2
125m 125g x2 = 250m 250g
+ Dark Shrine
150m 150g = 400m 400g
vs.
High Templar
100m 150g x2 = 200m 300g
+ Templar Archive
150m 200g = 350m 500g
I admit I am wrong on the build time, and yes, DTs will take twice as long to appear than HTs. Since gas is such a precious asset, once the structures kicks in, using 3000 gas a standard, You would have 12 available archons whereas the HT route would only have made 10 in time for a hellbat/medivac/siegetank push. Please recheck your math. templars are 50/150... sry bro. Thanks, I corrected the earlier thread. Zealots are not very good against well-spread hellbats in sufficient numbers. Also, this thread has gotten extremely derailed.
Not to add to the discussion but to point something out. Zealots are better against well-spread hellbats, because being spread means that the (charge) zealots can cover more area. If the hellbats are clumbed together then they will exploit the melee range weakness. Zealots will fight for space and trip out while the hellbats with the range of 2 can hit both the front and the back zealots.
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On February 16 2013 22:54 Stingart wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 22:21 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 16 2013 22:17 rpgalon wrote:On February 16 2013 22:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 16 2013 21:42 Nezgar wrote:
To which then someone objects that the dark shrine has reduced cost, not reduced build time. Oh, and DT Archons have an even worse cost ratio against hellbats with 7.5:1 when you count gas twice as valuable.
So two 125m 125g invisible unit unlocked by a 150m 150g tech structure to produce an Archon is more inefficient and slower than two 100m 150g spellcaster unit unlocked by a 100m 200g tech structure? Let's do the math for the first Archon: + Show Spoiler +Dark Templar x2
125m 125g x2 = 250m 250g
+ Dark Shrine
150m 150g = 400m 400g
vs.
High Templar
100m 150g x2 = 200m 300g
+ Templar Archive
150m 200g = 350m 500g
I admit I am wrong on the build time, and yes, DTs will take twice as long to appear than HTs. Since gas is such a precious asset, once the structures kicks in, using 3000 gas a standard, You would have 12 available archons whereas the HT route would only have made 10 in time for a hellbat/medivac/siegetank push. Please recheck your math. templars are 50/150... sry bro. Thanks, I corrected the earlier thread. Zealots are not very good against well-spread hellbats in sufficient numbers. Also, this thread has gotten extremely derailed. Not to add to the discussion but to point something out. Zealots are better against well-spread hellbats, because being spread means that the (charge) zealots can cover more area. If the hellbats are clumbed together then they will exploit the melee range weakness. Zealots will fight for space and trip out while the hellbats with the range of 2 can hit both the front and the back zealots.
I have to point this out, the standard definition of well-spread does not always mean single file board-side fire, well-spread means an optimized formation against any particular unit.
In this case, a well-spread hellbat formation is two ranks deep to optimize their range of 2.
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I have to point this out, the standard definition of well-spread does not always mean single file board-side fire, well-spread means an optimized formation against any particular unit.
Except it is very rare that you will be fighting just one kind of unit, and units may have roles beyond maximizing their individual survival. The unit positioning that may help against zealots may be awful against colossi--or your positioning may be "optimal" from the perspective of minimizing dps taken by your units in a certain engagement, but if doing that requires you move out of position in a way that, say, lets them bypass your Hellions and get to tanks, then it can easily become suboptimal.
Given the complexities of actual battles vs theorycraft, "well spread" as you propose it is virtually meaningless except as a synonym for "good overall positioning." If thats what you mean, just say that. I think most people will take "well spread" to mean, basically, just that. Not some nebulous "any optimal positioning is a good spread" idea.
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On February 16 2013 21:51 Qikz wrote:
I didn't mean to try and disrespect him, but I honestly felt that with his opinions, which I agree he has every right to have, completely contradicts any experiences I've actually had playing the game. That's the only reason why I felt the need to come out and say that I honestly felt he hadn't play the game.
Maybe my experiences are different to other players, but I've played plenty of sample games since the beginning of the beta with mech and from my own personal play and also speaking to other terrans/toss that I practice with in game I felt that he was kindly mistaken and I wanted to try and explain why. My apologies to you Xequecal, hopefully you can forgive my brash nature in my posts in this thread.
I honestly think hidden among my brash posting that there is a lot of truth to what I'm saying. Yes, hellbats will be kept behind the tanks, but if you engage, you can pull away and the hellbats won't catch up with you. If they're in front of the tanks collosus can poke at them and also if they over extend with them they are perfectly kitable by stalkers/immortals. Although personally I think Stalkers shouldn't be used in a composition against tank/hellbat as I've personally found them to just die extremely quickly to tank volleys when protoss players engage me.
Also to counter your point about hellions annihilating probes, the majority of protoss players I've been playing use pylon walls to block off entrances to their expansions and doing a damn good job of making it hard for me to ever hurass later in the game. Another thing that I've personally experienced is as mech is so weak early on (especially tank/hellbat at low tank numbers), it's really hard for the protoss player not to have map control enough to be able to expand all over the place. I guess this depends on the map however.
The biggest problem with your argument is that you don't realize that in PvT, Protoss is dependent on using Zealots to either tank damage, force the enemy army to kite them, or both, allowing its other units to deal damage. Their ability to do this is why mech sucked in WoL. It wasn't because of Immortals. When you have enough tanks, even Immortals get slaughtered. Mech sucked against P because even though blue flame Hellions DO beat Zealots, they have to kite them to do so, (trying to a-move into Zealots or stand your ground with BF hellions gets them slaughtered) and kiting away leaves your Siege Tanks exposed. Even if you were to win the battle, you would lose many tanks, which are expensive and take forever to produce, and are slow to reach your main army as well.
With Hellbats, this is not the case. Hellbats stand up to Zealots and kill them in seconds. You don't need to retreat or kite anymore, they can sit there and tank damage while your tanks and Thors clean up everything after the Zealots die. They are also pretty much impossible to "pick off," they are 135 HP and are healed by medivacs, you can't whittle them down over time, any non-fatal damage is quickly healed. Even if Protoss does manage to kill some hellbats, unlike most mech units, they are cheap and fast moving (in hellion form) so replacements are quickly and easily reactored out and rallied down, then transformed when they reach you.
Unlike in WoL, where you could force the Hellions to move away or get slaughtered, giving you access to the expensive units, in HotS you MUST kill the Hellbats before you can start attacking the meat of the mech army, and you have nothing that does enough DPS to them that allows you to do so. Storm isn't going to kill them alone, they're getting healed by medivacs all the time. You need to push in additional DPS and you have nothing that does so. Stalkers and Immortals do very little and Colossi only hit a few Hellbats at once. By the time you've broken the Hellbats, the high DPS Thors and Siege Tanks will have cleaned up most of your army.
The result right now is that Terran mech is exactly like it was in BW, where if you have a maxed out mech army, it's impossible for P to directly attack. (At least without the long range Tempest, there isn't) However, unlike BW, there are no Arbiters that let you recall into their main or stasis to eliminate a huge portion of the Terran army instantly. Also, in BW, the unit with EMP was a unit that was basically completely useless against P for anything but countering Arbiters and required a huge gas investment to even reach, while in SC2 the unit with EMP also counters HTs and Archons and is available with a single 100/50 building.
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On February 17 2013 00:56 Xequecal wrote:
Unlike in WoL, where you could force the Hellions to move away or get slaughtered, giving you access to the expensive units, in HotS you MUST kill the Hellbats before you can start attacking the meat of the mech army, and you have nothing that does enough DPS to them that allows you to do so. Storm isn't going to kill them alone, they're getting healed by medivacs all the time. You need to push in additional DPS and you have nothing that does so. Stalkers and Immortals do very little and Colossi only hit a few Hellbats at once. By the time you've broken the Hellbats, the high DPS Thors and Siege Tanks will have cleaned up most of your army.
The result right now is that Terran mech is exactly like it was in BW, where if you have a maxed out mech army, it's impossible for P to directly attack. (At least without the long range Tempest, there isn't) However, unlike BW, there are no Arbiters that let you recall into their main or stasis to eliminate a huge portion of the Terran army instantly. Also, in BW, the unit with EMP was a unit that was basically completely useless against P for anything but countering Arbiters and required a huge gas investment to even reach, while in SC2 the unit with EMP also counters HTs and Archons and is available with a single 100/50 building.
So you are saying that T MMMVG deathball vs. P Zealot/Stalker/Archon/Colossi deathball is basically dead?
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EPT
