EPTTemplar Voidray Tempest - Page 9
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Sc2Wrath
United Kingdom58 Posts
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
On January 04 2013 06:34 Existor wrote: Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms. Do you think Protoss air is just inherently imbalanced vsT and vsZ as it is or could the imbalance be adjusted by giving Zerg more cost efficient answers vs air? I was testing Scourge in the unit tester vsP and vsZ and think returning the unit to the Spire could be a good way of addressing the imbalance in the PvsZ end game and make Mutalisks less of the "go to" composition in ZvsZ. Not sure what to do vs the Protoss air deathball as Terran, Vikings aren't enough it seems. But maybe they should look at removing the energy bar from Battle Cruisers, changing Yamato Cannon to a cool down ability and increasing the air to air damage to 8? | ||
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ProfessionalNoob
United States75 Posts
1) HT cost a lot of gas, void rays cost gas, carriers cost a lot of gas, tempests cost a lot of gas. Storm costs a lot of gas. Air upgrades cost, you guessed it, a lot of of gas. Yet anytime before a good mixture of these units are up, terran can simply slaughter all this with mass marine because mass marine counters pretty much anything without AoE. Zerg can also do a roach hydra push and simply kill this, because while hydras are freaking terrible vs. carriers, they're really good vs void rays and tempests, and carriers take 2 minutes to build and you can't even start a carrier before the 10 minute mark without hurting your late game significantly. 2) Mass corruptor beats any combination of toss air unless you sit in storms for fun AND you don't land any good fungals. Carriers suck vs corruptor, the only answer toss has to corruptor is void ray. And void rays stack up like crazy and they can't dodge fungal easily even though it's a projectile = infestors are still really fucking good. And with vortex gone, you don't really ever have to worry about the dreaded archon toilet. 3) If protoss has a late game air army vs terran, terran can pretty much go BC+Raven+Ghost, and this becomes a micro battle (EMP vs. feedbacks like in bio, seeker missile which now costs only 75 energy vs splitting void rays which is actually much harder than marine split because flying units like to stack a lot more. 4) A lot of player based mistakes right now, even from pros, makes judging balance a lot harder in the beta. For example, one of the biggest mistakes (IMO) that zerg players make vs me late game when I go airtoss, is that they keep making hydras and stop making zerglings. Hydras, IMO, are nearly worthless vs the maxed airtoss army because while they are good vs the void rays, the moment I get 6+ carriers, your hydras are all wasting shots on interceptors unless you focus fire them on the voids one by one, which is going to be next to impossible. Plus, I have HT/achons likely in these armies which will absolutely annihilate the hydras. So the hydras are really dead weight. Really, you should be making a decent pack of zerglings to run around and harass my expansions, as my air army full of slow ass units will not want to move to go kill a zergling runby, so it's super annoying to deal with unless you have like 5 canons at each expo, and even then eventually you can work down the canons, or just ignore them and kill workers because 3/3 cracklings are amazing lategame. 5) If you apply heavy midgame pressure in the form of big roach/hydra pushes or big bio pushes, your tech is now too slow to get the necessary counter to a maxed protoss air army in time to stop it, so you have to do significant damage. Yet many players are stuck in the mindset of the old metagame of "make bio, then more bio, then more bio" or "if I get infestor BL, he can't kill it", the first of which does not work when your opponents' army is going to be almost exclusively tier 3 units, and the second of which just isn't true because mass airtoss vs. zerg is actually really really powerful unless you can exploit its weak points of mobility and clumping with either counterattacks or fungals. And zerg players seem to have some misconception now, that fungal either sucks or they just want to try new stuff so they're not massing infestors like they used to, when really it's still a really powerful caster. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
Even chess has this mechanic. When the pawn reaches the opponent's end of the board, the pawn may be upgraded to another chess piece, usually a queen. Guess how IMBA is 2 queens on the board? In other words, not only is chess about check mating the king, it is also preventing the opponent's pawns from reaching your side of the board. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On February 15 2013 05:03 ProfessionalNoob wrote: I disagree that protoss air is overpowered. 1) HT cost a lot of gas, void rays cost gas, carriers cost a lot of gas, tempests cost a lot of gas. Storm costs a lot of gas. Air upgrades cost, you guessed it, a lot of of gas. Yet anytime before a good mixture of these units are up, terran can simply slaughter all this with mass marine because mass marine counters pretty much anything without AoE. Zerg can also do a roach hydra push and simply kill this, because while hydras are freaking terrible vs. carriers, they're really good vs void rays and tempests, and carriers take 2 minutes to build and you can't even start a carrier before the 10 minute mark without hurting your late game significantly. disclaimer: Since I play no HotS, I have no opinion on this matter whatsoever, the following lines are meant for a more general setting and can be applied to any race who might or might not have an "imba" lategame army. The cost of the late game army is irrelevant. The only two things that count is: a) How supply efficient it is b) How easy it is to transition into it Even if you have a lategame army which costs alot, it is incredibly imbalanced if other races have no means of defeating it, and if you can transition into it naturally and slowly, paying the price slice by slice. Take for example mass Battlecruiser (possibly with Vikings or Ravens), or mass Carriers in WoL. Both armies are hard (not impossible, but extremely hard if the player controlling the air army makes the right decisions) for other races to build, but they leave you wide open while you transition to it. The Broodlord / Infestor is definitely easier to beat than the above two compositions, but the reason why it is more dominant in the matchups, is because it is easier for the Zergs to transition into it (though some terran and protoss still manage to hit nasty timings and catch the zerg off guard). | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Maybe make corruption a researchable ability at greater spire, but give it a lot more oomph. Copy the acid spores ability from devourers for example. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On February 15 2013 20:27 Bagi wrote: I think they should take a look at the corruption spell. After the infestor nerfs it seems that both terran and protoss can get an air deathball that zerg just can't do much about. While the fast remaxing ability does compensate for a lot, its just sad when a maxed zerg army can't kill a single BC due to PDDs and seeker missiles everywhere. Maybe make corruption a researchable ability at greater spire, but give it a lot more oomph. Copy the acid spores ability from devourers for example. I find your scenarios extremely naive and far fetched. Any Terran or Protoss player who has tried straight 1 or 2 base teching to BCs or Carriers without any harass or mid game timing push has found themselves repeatedly stomped by any competent opponent, just ask White-ra or watch Husky's YouTube casts of him going straight to carriers in the early HotS betas. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On February 15 2013 20:47 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I find your scenarios extremely naive and far fetched. Any Terran or Protoss player who has tried straight 1 or 2 base teching to BCs or Carriers without any harass or mid game timing push has found themselves repeatedly stomped by any competent opponent, just ask White-ra or watch Husky's YouTube casts of him going straight to carriers in the early HotS betas. Who the hell said anything about 1-2 basing into mass air? Try split map on daybreak, transitioning from mech into viking/raven/BCs. It's a very viable transition and at a certain point it becomes nigh impossible for zerg to beat. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On February 15 2013 19:55 Baum wrote: Tempest just have too much range in my opinion. There is no reason for them having 15 range. They could fill the same role while having a reasonable range like 10-12. Tempests also function as the Terran mech counter so they need their range. If Thors could shoot them down you'd never beat mech. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On February 15 2013 21:10 Xequecal wrote: Tempests also function as the Terran mech counter so they need their range. If Thors could shoot them down you'd never beat mech. All Tempests do have is range. Their DPS is less than the DPS of one stimmed Marine against somnething other than massive air. I don't want to pay that much money for a unit that can tank a little damage but does none. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On February 15 2013 20:02 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Every race should have a gas intensive unstoppable army due to the supply limitation and entertainment factor. Even chess has this mechanic. When the pawn reaches the opponent's end of the board, the pawn may be upgraded to another chess piece, usually a queen. Guess how IMBA is 2 queens on the board? In other words, not only is chess about check mating the king, it is also preventing the opponent's pawns from reaching your side of the board. The problem is how attainable this army composition is. In WOL Zerg was getting their gas intensive army every game. It was standard to tech to brood infestor in most games which made the game very stale. If it's standard for Protoss to go Sky toss in most PvZ games in Hots then we have the same situation that one race basically turtles to the late game while the other race is trying to find an opening to win before that happens. In Chess getting a pawn to the other side is a finishing move it happens in the end game it's something that you do when you already won the game. Your whole game plan doesn't revolve around getting that one pawn to the other side there is a lot of different strategical focus and interaction before that to even be possible. Every race should have the potential to go for a high tech late game army but that shouldn't mean that it hardcounters every mid game army that the other race can throw at it. It should still be exploitable and not unbeatable in direct engagements because if the best strategy is to just always go for your race's best late game composition or try to do some form of game ending push before that then the gameplay gets very dull and it's unfortunately what we witness in a lot of WOL games. High tech units should be more difficult to tech to and mid game interactions should be where games are decided. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
If the maps were bigger and zerg against a sky player could take 3 corners of a map, then there's no way they'd lose unless they failed production. They could remax from different areas and just overwhelm it. On daybreak however there's nowhere where you can even outmanouver a sky deathball army and you can't punish it by mass expanding it as all the bases are so damn close. Cloud Kingdom, Akilon Wastes and the majority of the maps in the pool have the same issue. There's far too many really narrow 2 player maps and not enough wide open spaces, spread based 4 player maps. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On February 15 2013 21:19 rEalGuapo wrote: All Tempests do have is range. Their DPS is less than the DPS of one stimmed Marine against somnething other than massive air. I don't want to pay that much money for a unit that can tank a little damage but does none. If they have 12 range they still outrange thors and vikings which are their main counters. With the right support I am pretty sure even 10 range Tempest would be good enough to dismantle a meching player. But 15 range is just way too much there is no reason for Tempests to have that much range. It's just like the collosus a unit that needs little attention but forces a lot of attention from your opponent. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On February 15 2013 21:19 rEalGuapo wrote: All Tempests do have is range. Their DPS is less than the DPS of one stimmed Marine against somnething other than massive air. I don't want to pay that much money for a unit that can tank a little damage but does none. Enjoy getting shit-stomped by mech Terran, then. You can't break through Hellbats on the ground with any kind of support, period. Since 4 Vikings can kite any number of Void Rays to death and Thors can vaporize all your interceptors in seconds with splash, Carriers are also out. You need Tempests. Mech is very very slow and immobile, they can't take advantage of the low DPS, you just grind them down. | ||
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Emporium
England162 Posts
Timewarp But added to this, from a Terran perspective, Mech is absolutely laughable against this lategame, as its so slow, with Timewarp added to this it just becomes silly. I have countless games where I just get caught and then it's gg, i can't move into range with anything to hit the tempests or voids and then they can both just move in and win. But versus Bio its even more insane, you can't dodge the timewarp anywhere near aswell as other cast abilities such as storm, as its range so is so huge, and even if it catches a small portion, that small portion will die ti templar, storm just kills it then. Having a portion of your army just disappear is irritating to say the least, also the worst of it is when you have to try and engage the toss armies in the midgame, you can't run in and (stim for the win) at the ramp as they just timewarp and kill your shit. I can't wait to see a high level toss execute this style, say in the GSL, and highlight to Blizzard how fucking broken it is. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
Airtoss is kind of problematic against Zerg I admit but with how slow it is to get out you can still pump out 30 infestors and fungal all the interceptors and void rays to death. Tempests can't snipe burrowed units from 15 range either. Just play it like WoL TvP with burrowed infestors replacing cloaked Ghosts. Just keep turtling and backing off and sniping obvservers until you get an opening for one good fungal that wins the game on the spot. It works exactly like WoL TvP, turtle for 20 minutes until he fucks up a templar split and gets them EMPed, then steamroll over him and kill all his mining bases before any new templar have energy. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On February 15 2013 21:44 Xequecal wrote: Terran bio flat out annihilates airtoss. Airtoss is the counter to mech, mech shouldn't get a counter to it, period. So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On February 15 2013 21:44 Xequecal wrote: Terran bio flat out annihilates airtoss. Airtoss is the counter to mech, mech shouldn't get a counter to it, period. Airtoss is kind of problematic against Zerg I admit but with how slow it is to get out you can still pump out 30 infestors and fungal all the interceptors and void rays to death. Tempests can't snipe burrowed units from 15 range either. Just play it like WoL TvP with burrowed infestors replacing cloaked Ghosts. Just keep turtling and backing off and sniping obvservers until you get an opening for one good fungal that wins the game on the spot. It works exactly like WoL TvP, turtle for 20 minutes until he fucks up a templar split and gets them EMPed, then steamroll over him and kill all his mining bases before any new templar have energy. What's the point of going mech when you can't fight a Protoss air army at all? | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote: So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures. | ||
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