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I have not had a chance to play the HOTS Beta, yet this combination just sounds extremely broken.
Even if you might not see it at the moment, you did not see broodlord / infestor at the beginning of WOL either, - simply because noone knew how to get there.
Why is this different from WOL
Try to think of an army consisting of 3 Photon cannons, slightly behind that are 5 Tempests, and a ball of voidrays. A few tempar wait spread out nearby.
Now think of how you could engage that.
Vs terran,
Airplay was not seen from protoss, simply because of the dominance of marines.
Everyone played bio and even if you managed to commit to Carriers / Voidrays, in the ultra lategame they would simply get shut down by Vikings alone.
Vikings in WOL dart in, snipe a carrier and leave danger again, usually you would trade 1 Carrier for 1 Viking. However 3/3 Carriers Beat 3/3 Marines, even in WOL.
HOTS, this is now totally different. Voidrays with the initial charge completely wreck Vikings. The kiting is negated by the insane range of tempest. To fire a volley upon a tempest would put you in Voidray range, while the voidrays can use tempests to retreat.
3-5 templar thrown into the mix would also negate any marine or heavy viking play even more.
Thors, Ghosts, Ravens, Widowmines, all pretty much useless in that scenario
Vs Zerg
We have seen the strength of air even more in this matchup, especially White-Ra popularised the Carrier. Airplay can already be hard to deal with.
There are, right now exactly 2 Respones to actually killing Airplay.
1) Infestor Hydra - Might still work, however the tempest will Snipe any Infestor trying to do ninja fungals. And once you have templar i doubt that will work at all anymore.
2) Heavy corruptors - These like the vikings are considerd armored. Voidrays will destroy them MUCH more onesided than before. Infestors can be shut down by tempests
and templar.
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Other strengths of this build.
Phoenix, Oracle easily acsessable.
Photon Cannons / Zealots / Prism as mineral dumps.
Fleet beacon.
Mothership Core now here for early defense.
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You might be wondering how you can tech to that, and that if that worked you would see some form of it in WOL too.
HOWEVER the big problem is, in WOL, having this army would still let you lose against someone with superior economy. Now fights should be much more one sided towards protoss.
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Suggestions
Change the tempest to a ground unit. Giving it more weaknesses.
TL:DR
The tempests huge range fills holes in an unstoppable protoss army. While difficult to get to a combination of Voidray / Tempest / Templar can turn out to be a huge problem later on in the game.
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on a final note, I really hope that this is not imbalanced, I enjoy the tempest in its current state. I also play protoss, I just dont want the shift from the "unstoppable lowskill endgame army" to go from zerg to protoss.
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United States4883 Posts
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms.
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I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT.
Because Void Rays are official counters to corruptors, but Mutalisk - official counter to vrays.
One problem - Phoenixes can outrange corruptors.
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This is 100% theorycraft, would likely require a huge amount of good control from the Protoss player, and is one of the most gas-consuming compositions that anybody has ever thought of.
You're worrying about something that hasn't even been attempted yet. You have no replays, and just think that this is potentially broken. This is a silly thread.
Zerg can get into Infestor Broodlord because of their production mechanic. They can build 10 corruptors as they start their Greater Spire, and then can morph them all to broodlords when it's done. They can make 6+ infestors at a time to assist their Brood Lords.
If you're "transitioning" into this composition as Protoss, you're going to need at LEAST 3 Stargates (450 gas), and a TON of time. There is no way to create this army quickly enough, EVEN if you have the resources of a 4-base protoss.
Out of all the things to worry about, this composition seems like a really silly one.
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On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT.
Void rays are significantly more costly (250/150 vs 150/100). One Void Ray SHOULD beat one corruptor.
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On January 04 2013 06:17 weikor wrote:
this combination just sounds extremely broken.
Totally agreed.
I play HOTS beta as RANDOM. I played both protoss and terran, with and against this composition.
For PvT, when terran goes mech, tempest is almost an 1A. However if the terran turtles too much, tempest/templar/Void Ray (or carrier instead of void ray) is totally unbeatable. It's more broken than BL/Corruptor/infestor for Z in WoL.
Something must be done, but I have to say that playing protoss air is cool.
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On January 04 2013 07:11 TheSambassador wrote:
This is 100% theorycraft, would likely require a huge amount of good control from the Protoss player, and is one of the most gas-consuming compositions that anybody has ever thought of.
You're worrying about something that hasn't even been attempted yet. You have no replays, and just think that this is potentially broken. This is a silly thread.
Zerg can get into Infestor Broodlord because of their production mechanic. They can build 10 corruptors as they start their Greater Spire, and then can morph them all to broodlords when it's done. They can make 6+ infestors at a time to assist their Brood Lords.
If you're "transitioning" into this composition as Protoss, you're going to need at LEAST 3 Stargates (450 gas), and a TON of time. There is no way to create this army quickly enough, EVEN if you have the resources of a 4-base protoss.
Out of all the things to worry about, this composition seems like a really silly one.
The problem is this is not WoL, and u don't need to be quick with such army, u can take a slow approach, adding stargate one at a time upgrading, expanding and harassing simultaneously. There is no "kill him before blords or be dead" - even 2 tempest are a huge help vs them, and ultras, despite being so much better, are still hard countered by immortals.
A good protoss player will slowly sacrifice their zealots, sentries and stalkers and replenish with carriers/tempests/archons/whatever u wish to make their truly unbeatable army.
Not that this is wrong - I always felt protoss is kind of entitled to have the strongest army around.
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On January 04 2013 07:12 TheSambassador wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT. Void rays are significantly more costly (250/150 vs 150/100). One Void Ray SHOULD beat one corruptor.
You should probably read that again. He's not complaining that void rays beat corruptors 1v1. He's complaining that void rays beat corruptors at an even resource cost.
And yes, the reason for this is because they are trying to make it so that mutas beat void rays and corruptors beat phoenix. Another reason is that it's not good if corruptors can beat every other air unit.
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Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now.
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now.
Is the protoss weak to a zerg timing before a critical mass of whatever the hell we turtle to is reached?
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On January 04 2013 06:17 weikor wrote:
Thors, Ghosts, Ravens, Widowmines, all pretty much useless in that scenario
Wondering how you find Ravens useless, when PDD stops Tempest shots, doesn't stop Voidray beams, and doesn't block Storm, ie all its energy can stop the Tempest harass as the Vikings kite the Voidrays in 'theory'
Honestly thou, until HotS is released and people really practice and try things and refine builds to hold all the old + new pressures/timings we won't know if transitioning in to this comp is even possible ie in 'theory' Ghost, Raven, Battlecrusier is incredible powerful for Terran, but nobody uses it as you just die in trying to transition.
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It is very common for toss to open with a quick stargate and go for void rays/oracles. Toss will tech behind ffe and forcefield and then use mothercore to take a third either aggressively with stalkers(so they can recall and face no risk) or defensively with minimum army while they spend on tech. They can get 2 stargates pumping out units while they STILL have enough mins/gas to afford storm and templars. IMO the problem with protoss right now is that the mothershipcore is too good. It makes early banshees/swarmhosts/dts COMPLETELY useless while providing a turbocannon that makes killing any nexus extremely hard. This means they have reduced how aggressive their opponents can be while at the same time increasing how defensive they can be. The relatively low cost of a mothershipcore doesn't make it a huge investment early game and it allows you to transition easily into a 3 base Toss. This forces Zergs and Terran to either severely damage their opponent and get FAR ahead before late game happens or to just allin and straight out kill him before late game happens. This means that zerg/terran will have to play super aggressive against protoss and this is imbalanced because of the defensive benefits from the mothershipcore. Zerg can try roach allins but roaches are armored so one voidray and good sentry walls stop this. IDK about what Terran can do to try stop this, maybe a viking/tank or viking/bio timing attack?
Heres a breakdown of the protoss air army DETAILING why it is so strong.
Oracle: This unit has an ability that allows it to do HEAVY damage to light units. IT HAS MORE DPS THAN A FUCKING ARCHON with a 3.375 move speed. It does 25 dps to workers(light units). It is a high speed maneuverable air unit with high potential to do HEAVY damage to your economy.
Voidray: This unit can do a potential 32 DPS to armored units. Granted it is normally just 12 it has potential to do 32 dps for 20 seconds. Not many full engages last longer than 20 seconds. This unit can do tremendous damage to any army composition that has a significant amount of armored *ground* units.
*Even Corruptors melt to it.
Mothershipcore: 100/100 cost. I'm not entirely sure what the exact dps of Photon Overcharge(Planetary Nexus) is but in game it is a lot. Envision, detection in a large area. You can see cloaked units and give a Nexus high dps/range. This is the ultimate defensive unit.
Tempest: This unit obsoletes broodlords, battlecruiser, and any other unit that unfortunatly is flying and massive. As soon as this unit is in play those other units are COMPLETELY useless. The reason being it has a 30(PLUS 50) #$%@ DAMAGE ATTACK to massive air units with more range than a tank. Not sure if it does 80 damage or 30 damage to Colossus. Zerg weep.
It may be brought up that these units don't have high hp. They don't need to. Protoss have three REALLY STRONG terrain controllers at their disposal. High Templar, Sentry, Oracle. It is almost never a good idea to attack INTO storms. Sentries have the capabilities to completely block passage. Oracles create a very large slowed area. A toss just has to pick one of these units that go well with his army comp and not herp derp fail with them. He can use these to effectively keep you far enough away from his units that they will not suffer much damage.
TL DR: Protoss is imbalanced because the mothershipcore provides too many defensive benefits that allows Protoss to easy 3base into an extremely high damage Deathball. This forces aggressive play from opponents that is punishable by just defending. The protoss can engage really well with his strong terrain control and his high dps units.
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On January 04 2013 08:54 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now. Is the protoss weak to a zerg timing before a critical mass of whatever the hell we turtle to is reached?
Zerg has chances to attack and do damage and I imagine there are timings that can kill a toss before he can get the army of course, but it's not like wol zerg.
The big difference between the wol zerg deathball zvp and hots protoss deathball pvz is that protoss is adding it in slowly all game long.
So there isn't like a window of timing where you have to attack or that army is out. From my understanding so far the zerg is pretty much trying to trade armies if possible, at minimum keeping that deathball as low as possible.
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The problem isn't whether or not protoss is capable of reaching that army composition, it's that if they do zerg has absolutely no response. Pull up a unit tester and see for yourself how strong void ray templar is. I spent an hour trying to come up with a counter before giving up.
Think about the current infestor corruptor brood lord composition vs protoss in WoL. It's like that but worse. Bad design, bad gameplay.
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On January 04 2013 09:12 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 08:54 Teoita wrote:On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now. Is the protoss weak to a zerg timing before a critical mass of whatever the hell we turtle to is reached? Zerg has chances to attack and do damage and I imagine there are timings that can kill a toss before he can get the army of course, but it's not like wol zerg. The big difference between the wol zerg deathball zvp and hots protoss deathball pvz is that protoss is adding it in slowly all game long. So there isn't like a window of timing where you have to attack or that army is out. From my understanding so far the zerg is pretty much trying to trade armies if possible, at minimum keeping that deathball as low as possible.
Pretty mutch this.
Its really hard to play ZvP overall i feel.
If the protoss dedicates to the defense there are little weaknesses.
there are some Roach/Hydra timings but they get shut down by the protoss taking his bases slowly and as soon as P has Colossi you need to wait untill Vipers/Corrupters so Protoss has more time to secure a 3rd and build up his ultimate air army.
Because of SC2s broken Economy system 3 bases are more then enough to max out on T3 Air with some T2 support.
Another problem is that Protoss has 2xT3 air and a T2 air unit that demolishes Zergs dedicated anti air.
So basicly the Zerg air tech tree stops at T2 with a incredibly shitti dedicated anto air and a herrass unit (broodlords excluded because they dont do shit vs air obv)
You simply cant make mass Terran/Protoss air armys viable when Zerg simply has little anti air.
All out T3 units (Ultra, Broodlord and Viper) basicly only affect Ground (Abduct does affect air but has not mutch of an impact), our T2 AA dies to temps or Voids in the case of the corruptor and our T1 dosnt attack air at all.
The only way i´ve seen ppl beat it was when machine contained the Protoss in a incredibly long turtle game, threw 5 maxed armies at Protoss untill he ran out of gas and then killed him over the course of 20 minutes with max queen with some corrupters.
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The only way i´ve seen ppl beat it was when machine contained the Protoss in a incredibly long turtle game, threw 5 maxed armies at Protoss untill he ran out of gas and then killed him over the course of 20 minutes with max queen with some corrupters.
Do you know where I may see the VOD for this? What day was he streaming? PLZ tell me anything that will let me see this game or get the replay.
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I by no means want to say that this will give protoss 100% win rate. Im sure there are certain timings to abuse, especially where protoss does not have everything they want yet.
Right now for protoss its : Got to inflict damage before he gets too much X
I suspect that in HOTS its : Turtle untill I have X
Giving you a totally different approach to your game.
Concerning recourses: Broodlord infestor also costs an insane amount of recources. Investing all the minerals into spinecrawlers.
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I feel that theres no real reason for Tempest not be a robotics- ground - unit, it would still allow most of the similar strategies, and counter BL infestor.
And the anti massive Tempest could be countered by light ground units(Light air units in general are awful head to head combat units)
The only reason its air is because they planned it for replacing the carrier, then redesigned its role.
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This is like asking, how do you beat 3-3-3 mass carrier?
The Answer: DON'T LET THEM GET MASS CARRIER
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On January 04 2013 06:17 weikor wrote:
I have not had a chance to play the HOTS Beta, yet this combination just sounds extremely broken.
Even if you might not see it at the moment, you did not see broodlord / infestor at the beginning of WOL either, - simply because noone knew how to get there.
Why is this different from WOL
Try to think of an army consisting of 3 Photon cannons, slightly behind that are 5 Tempests, and a ball of voidrays. A few tempar wait spread out nearby.
Now think of how you could engage that.
Vs terran,
Airplay was not seen from protoss, simply because of the dominance of marines.
Everyone played bio and even if you managed to commit to Carriers / Voidrays, in the ultra lategame they would simply get shut down by Vikings alone.
Vikings in WOL dart in, snipe a carrier and leave danger again, usually you would trade 1 Carrier for 1 Viking. However 3/3 Carriers Beat 3/3 Marines, even in WOL.
HOTS, this is now totally different. Voidrays with the initial charge completely wreck Vikings. The kiting is negated by the insane range of tempest. To fire a volley upon a tempest would put you in Voidray range, while the voidrays can use tempests to retreat.
3-5 templar thrown into the mix would also negate any marine or heavy viking play even more.
Thors, Ghosts, Ravens, Widowmines, all pretty much useless in that scenario
Vs Zerg
We have seen the strength of air even more in this matchup, especially White-Ra popularised the Carrier. Airplay can already be hard to deal with.
There are, right now exactly 2 Respones to actually killing Airplay.
1) Infestor Hydra - Might still work, however the tempest will Snipe any Infestor trying to do ninja fungals. And once you have templar i doubt that will work at all anymore.
2) Heavy corruptors - These like the vikings are considerd armored. Voidrays will destroy them MUCH more onesided than before. Infestors can be shut down by tempests
and templar.
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Other strengths of this build.
Phoenix, Oracle easily acsessable.
Photon Cannons / Zealots / Prism as mineral dumps.
Fleet beacon.
Mothership Core now here for early defense.
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You might be wondering how you can tech to that, and that if that worked you would see some form of it in WOL too.
HOWEVER the big problem is, in WOL, having this army would still let you lose against someone with superior economy. Now fights should be much more one sided towards protoss.
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Suggestions
Change the tempest to a ground unit. Giving it more weaknesses.
TL:DR
The tempests huge range fills holes in an unstoppable protoss army. While difficult to get to a combination of Voidray / Tempest / Templar can turn out to be a huge problem later on in the game.
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on a final note, I really hope that this is not imbalanced, I enjoy the tempest in its current state. I also play protoss, I just dont want the shift from the "unstoppable lowskill endgame army" to go from zerg to protoss.
I don't think this will ever be a problem in PvT.
To survive the midgame Protoss needs either really good upgrades as well as charge and blink/storm or a reasonable number of Colossi with range upgrades as well as armor.
I mean, sure it might be possible to transition into that composition after minute 50 but even then I doubt there is any way to do so since the way fights work is that if one side has a disadvantage, the fight will snowball and end extremely one-sided.
The big difference as to why Protoss will not get there (at least against Bio) is the macro mechanic of getting an incredible high number of Drones and later Spines, which combined with Infestors are extremely strong.
Protoss cannot afford to rely on 8 Templars and 20 Cannons as only defense the way Zerg can. A single Storm will only delay an attack by 4 seconds and do minimal damage. A single Fungal hit means everything dies.
In PvZ however I feel like Protoss can turtle their way into this composition.
BUT, using any form of harass like Oracles or Phoenixes unsuccessfully will result in a loss if you try to get that unstoppable army.
Already there are a lot of Zerg players out there that realise the potential of getting huge numbers of Roaches and Hydras quickly against Stargate turtle play.
Again, a Storm does not mean everything dies, it means everything is damaged and/or delayed. Roaches can easily bait out 3 or 4 Storms and then burrow, wasting probably the majority of Storms available to delay the attack by 20 seconds.
Also in all cases Protoss does not have the quick response that are Zerglings.
True, sometimes Protoss is lucky and just got a round of warpins as the Medivacs/Mutas/Overlords approach but even then, the drops will often do considerable damage or open up vulnerabilities on other parts of the map.
I think that this composition can be as broken as BL/Infestor, I don't know.
However, without the Infestor and infinite supply of Spinecrawlers I think getting there will be incredibly hard.
Getting the Gas for a couple of Storms Tempests and Void Rays as well as the upgrades requires AT LEAST 3 bases. In my experience Void Rays and Storm as well as +1 +1 Air upgrades are pretty hard to get off of 3 bases.
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On January 04 2013 09:30 ma5ta wrote:
This is like asking, how do you beat 3-3-3 mass carrier?
The Answer: DON'T LET THEM GET MASS CARRIER
Amazing, let's do this...
HOTS gives protoss a really strong and safe early game with mothership core that almost allows you to blindly fast expand, knowing you can also be agressive at the same time.
This leads you to a strong eco and midgame army where you have superiority on your opponent. You can both choose to attack and end the game OR turtle more to go late game and increase your chance to win the game to 100% with invincible air/templar composition.
Skyprotoss is a good idea and ultra strong at the moment, I would be curious to see some VODS where a decent protoss goes full air and uses oracle's timewarp ability.
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It's definitely strong. But it's not BL infestor.
BL infestor has two huge things in it's favor. Free units and snare. If mis controlled for 1 second... you die when they land the fungal.
This new toss ball doesn't have those. It has range but so did broodlords. It has storm but that doesn't snare. You can avoid that.
If they are putting big numbers into voids then they will have less tempest. Also voids don't turn into tempest. Corrupters turn into broods.
So don't start the BL-infestor comparisons please. It's two completely different beasts. The infestor enabled someone to get to the broodlord very easily because it could shut down any and all attacks. There was no weakness, just if you had enough energy.
Protoss doesn't have that unit. This comp requires gas out the wazooo. People are correct in saying end game it may be too strong. HOWEVER I think people are playing vs this style entirely wrong. Zergs are still using a WoL mindset in which they feel safe to sit back and take free bases and make it rain drones. That doesn't work anymore. The zerg needs to be aggressive. You need to deny the third as long as possible while building up your own econ.
Please don't say the mothership core makes a fast third safe. Vs a mass of roach hydra or ling hyrda or a flock of muta the damage is not going to swing a battle. But if you force the super cannon and don't feel safe just go hit the nat instead. Or wait 1 min.
If zergs scout well there is an answer to every composition that the protoss has on it's way to this super combo. Let's say the protoss opens stargate. If the zerg identifies this early enough they have a few options depending on what the toss does.
oracle- just secure the 3 bases with queen+spore and drone -> muta
void- prepare for some timing attack - hydra do well vs this since it will be void + gateway and open a HUGE window for roach hydra wins.
phoenix- more or less the same as vs oracles except you again have the option for a lethal hydra+ling/roach timing.
Stargate if properly prepared for just doesn't allow for a safe third. There is no splash to deal with the large numbers of hydra roach zerg can pump out midgame.
I think robo expands into Colossi then stargate give the safest third but that leaves a huge opening for the zerg to hit with an ultra 3-3 timing while the toss still has a lot of resources tied up in ground army. I don't think the toss can stop that.
I think the biggest thing about this new super comp is that it makes the midgame much more important. The larger advantage the toss gets midgame, the easier it is to reach this super comp safely. This is a dramatic change from WoL and I believe zergs will learn and adapt and probably enjoy being on the offensive. They just need to drop the feeling that they are head if they play passively.
TL;DR
Toss ball while strong isn't easy to get to, zergs need to adapt from WoL passive styles and punish toss before all tech paths open.
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On January 04 2013 09:26 CthulhuWarlord wrote:Show nested quote +The only way i´ve seen ppl beat it was when machine contained the Protoss in a incredibly long turtle game, threw 5 maxed armies at Protoss untill he ran out of gas and then killed him over the course of 20 minutes with max queen with some corrupters. Do you know where I may see the VOD for this? What day was he streaming? PLZ tell me anything that will let me see this game or get the replay.
Machine said that day that he will release a replay pack so i assume it will be on it aswell.
He didnt do it yet.
I will search the VoD and if i find anything i´ll edit it in here
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I'm Zerg and I don't think its broken.
First of all I think viper/corruptor can beat it. You can abduct and pick off void rays, then kill off the rest when there's nothing to kill corruptors. Later when there are Templars you can abduct and snipe capital ships instead.
Phoenix don't do anything to vipers. They just take ages to kill them, because of their natural armor and the way phoenix deal damage. Templars' recall sounds good against that but it isn't really practical. Templars won't be exactly where the void rays are, so there will always be an angle where you can abduct without risk.
This composition is really immobile and you can abuse that. You can fly around it and kill stuff with abduct. You can counterattack. Zerg is not about being passive and teching to the late game anymore, and it's awesome. Aggression is much more permissive and less cheesy in hots because teching is much easier and stronger.
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Right now it's actually viable on several maps for Protoss to simply take a fast third base off nothing but void rays and 3-4 Zealots against Zerg if they see Zerg get a fast third. Like Nexus Forge Gateway Core Stargate Gateway, boost void rays, take third when second void ray is out. I think Zerg has to stay on 2 bases and be aggressive against Protoss, fast third is suicidal for Zerg right now.
In WoL, this kind of opening is weak to hydralisk timings as well as just roach/ling max, as the void rays can't actually kill the ground units before they roll over you. Now, roach/ling is suicide against the 32 DPS void rays, and hydralisk timings also don't work against photon overcharge and the new 0.5 attack period void rays. Remember that Protoss can get +1 air attack very, very quickly, before your timing hits. 0 armor hydralisks are just not effective against +1 void rays. Trying to attack later in the game with a large ground army is just going to run into a wall of blocking buildings in front of cannons in front of tempests. Mutalisks are also ineffective, again because of Protoss' ability to get extremely fast air attack upgrades. If you try to go for Mutas off 3 bases as Zerg, Protoss can easily have +2 air weapons done by the time your mutalisks get there, and you'll still have 0 air armor because your air upgrades are on the spire. His void rays will chase off your mutalisks easily with that kind of upgrade disparity.
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On January 04 2013 10:29 MilesTeg wrote:
I'm Zerg and I don't think its broken.
First of all I think viper/corruptor can beat it. You can abduct and pick off void rays, then kill off the rest when there's nothing to kill corruptors.
Phoenix don't do anything to vipers. They just take ages to kill them, because of their natural armor and the way phoenix deal damage. Templars' recall sounds good against that but it isn't really practical. Templars won't be exactly where the void rays are, so there will always be an angle where you can abduct without risk.
This composition is really immobile and you can abuse that. You can fly around it and kill stuff with abduct. You can counterattack. Zerg is not about being passive and teching to the late game anymore, and it's awesome. Aggression is much more permissive and less cheesy in hots because teching is much easier and stronger.
How exactly do you abduct units against 15-range Tempests shooting your Vipers down?
Also remember that Mothership Core has 14 sight. Trying to sneak up on or around a Protoss army is pretty damn hard.
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On January 04 2013 10:30 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 10:29 MilesTeg wrote:
I'm Zerg and I don't think its broken.
First of all I think viper/corruptor can beat it. You can abduct and pick off void rays, then kill off the rest when there's nothing to kill corruptors.
Phoenix don't do anything to vipers. They just take ages to kill them, because of their natural armor and the way phoenix deal damage. Templars' recall sounds good against that but it isn't really practical. Templars won't be exactly where the void rays are, so there will always be an angle where you can abduct without risk.
This composition is really immobile and you can abuse that. You can fly around it and kill stuff with abduct. You can counterattack. Zerg is not about being passive and teching to the late game anymore, and it's awesome. Aggression is much more permissive and less cheesy in hots because teching is much easier and stronger. How exactly do you abduct units against 15-range Tempests shooting your Vipers down? Also remember that Mothership Core has 14 sight. Trying to sneak up on or around a Protoss army is pretty damn hard.
When I tried it there was no MsC. But still, things don't actually die that fast, and you'll have the time to do a ton of damage before your vipers die.
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On January 04 2013 06:17 weikor wrote:
I have not had a chance to play the HOTS Beta
Why am i not surprised.
On January 04 2013 06:17 weikor wrote:
Vs terran,
Airplay was not seen from protoss, simply because of the dominance of marines.
Everyone played bio and even if you managed to commit to Carriers / Voidrays, in the ultra lategame they would simply get shut down by Vikings alone.
Vikings in WOL dart in, snipe a carrier and leave danger again, usually you would trade 1 Carrier for 1 Viking. However 3/3 Carriers Beat 3/3 Marines, even in WOL.
HOTS, this is now totally different. Voidrays with the initial charge completely wreck Vikings. The kiting is negated by the insane range of tempest. To fire a volley upon a tempest would put you in Voidray range, while the voidrays can use tempests to retreat.
3-5 templar thrown into the mix would also negate any marine or heavy viking play even more.
Thors, Ghosts, Ravens, Widowmines, all pretty much useless in that scenario
Ghosts can of course, utilize nukes, and attempting to create opportunities for ghosts to attack unhampered by detection ghosts can win the game single handedly if you force a mistake out of protoss.
Thors are really useful here, with their new attack style and void rays lacking +massive damage they trade super efficiently with everything on the list and are very resilient to storm, they should be kept protected from tempests until it is time to engage obviously.
As far as i'm aware PDD blocks tempest shots, somebody correct me if this is wrong? But anyway if so their usefulness is distinct. A small number of widowmines can be useful again if you are able to force scenario's with detection holes but I agree they probably won't be a staple here.
These are all options but from my point of view the best way to engage this for terran is to play bio. Storm is really the only thing here that bio trades poorly against and with the new medivac terrans effectiveness against this is increased phenomenally. proper ghost control can help with this miles, but the real solution is to utilize the following which applies to both match ups.
Treat it as what it is, hugely immobile. You wouldn't expect to beat straight up 200/200 mech in a ground fight and perhaps you shouldn't expect to beat this. Utilize your map presence and mobility advantage, trade inefficiently but with an economy advantage and wear this down.
On January 04 2013 06:17 weikor wrote:
Vs Zerg
We have seen the strength of air even more in this matchup, especially White-Ra popularised the Carrier. Airplay can already be hard to deal with.
There are, right now exactly 2 Respones to actually killing Airplay.
1) Infestor Hydra - Might still work, however the tempest will Snipe any Infestor trying to do ninja fungals. And once you have templar i doubt that will work at all anymore.
2) Heavy corruptors - These like the vikings are considerd armored. Voidrays will destroy them MUCH more onesided than before. Infestors can be shut down by tempests
and templar.
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Protoss has to really add in collosus with any pure air play here as theres really no way to hold any number of 3/4 base hydra, hydra/viper, hydra/infestor, hydra/corruptor, hydra/corruptor/viper plays without. THis is the central weakness in the play, by dealing with collosi (imo via vipers) you can limit the protoss' economy or even just kill them as you take a lategame advantage to deal with skytoss. Now for the super lategame, supposing you couldn't stop protoss getting either a fourth or a fifth and he managed to continually trade up to this army comp.
For the late game you need to be pushing with creep spread and static defences. pulling any units with viper is huge here as everything is super high cost for protoss and you can trade at a slight disadvantage and utilize your economy advantage. Static defence, corruptors, infested terrans and most importantly swarm hosts locust can all help draw tempest fire and do damage without needing to engage the protoss army, most notably here with correct swarm host usage you can seige the seige as it were.
Obviously a lot is left out and a lot is unknown but its not difficult to see from here that feasibly zerg can deal with this composition.
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that is the most gas heavy composition ever lol, and Zerg has so many options to wear down Protoss in order to make it extremely difficult to get up such a army...I was playing a game just the other day where protoss was trying to do this and I was just very active with corrupters, and roach hydra, keeping corrupters over stargates similar to scourges over stargates in BW, and then sniping tempests and voidrays or carriers as they came out, if he sent army to attack my corrupters I would roll his expansions with roach hydra.
If Zerg just sits and lets Protoss get this type of army, it is his own fault. It is a little more complex than " Don't let Protoss do it " but , that is what it comes down to, you just have to be skillful in the sense of attacking multiple places strategically and drawing his army out of defensive position in order to snipe expansions then gain small little leads one by one.
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"I haven't actually played with this even once, but here's some theorcraft about why its totally imba."
Seriously? Lets at least have people play around with WoL before freaking out over this.
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On January 04 2013 07:11 TheSambassador wrote:
This is 100% theorycraft, would likely require a huge amount of good control from the Protoss player, and is one of the most gas-consuming compositions that anybody has ever thought of.
You're worrying about something that hasn't even been attempted yet. You have no replays, and just think that this is potentially broken. This is a silly thread.
Zerg can get into Infestor Broodlord because of their production mechanic. They can build 10 corruptors as they start their Greater Spire, and then can morph them all to broodlords when it's done. They can make 6+ infestors at a time to assist their Brood Lords.
If you're "transitioning" into this composition as Protoss, you're going to need at LEAST 3 Stargates (450 gas), and a TON of time. There is no way to create this army quickly enough, EVEN if you have the resources of a 4-base protoss.
Out of all the things to worry about, this composition seems like a really silly one.
It has been used before by whitera to great extent!
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I want to correct 2 things about the OP. High master P here.
1) In most maps Carriers are better than Tempest.
2) While I agree that the composition is very very strong, getting it is really, REALLY hard. Much harder than what the OP shows. Is as hard as trying to get mass Bc's with terran (I guess, i'm not a T player). Harder to the point that if the P reach this army, then prolly he indeed was a better player than his opponent.
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On January 04 2013 12:53 Belha wrote:
I want to correct 2 things about the OP. High master P here.
1) In most maps Carriers are better than Tempest.
2) While I agree that the composition is very very strong, getting it is really, REALLY hard. Much harder than what the OP shows. Is as hard as trying to get mass Bc's with terran (I guess, i'm not a T player). Harder to the point that if the P reach this army, then prolly he indeed was a better player than his opponent.
It's not that hard to get it, not anywhere near as hard as for terran to get his composition. Especially if you open up 2 stargate voidray to begin with (which is very, very powerful).
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On January 04 2013 09:54 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 06:17 weikor wrote:
I have not had a chance to play the HOTS Beta, yet this combination just sounds extremely broken.
Even if you might not see it at the moment, you did not see broodlord / infestor at the beginning of WOL either, - simply because noone knew how to get there.
Why is this different from WOL
Try to think of an army consisting of 3 Photon cannons, slightly behind that are 5 Tempests, and a ball of voidrays. A few tempar wait spread out nearby.
Now think of how you could engage that.
Vs terran,
Airplay was not seen from protoss, simply because of the dominance of marines.
Everyone played bio and even if you managed to commit to Carriers / Voidrays, in the ultra lategame they would simply get shut down by Vikings alone.
Vikings in WOL dart in, snipe a carrier and leave danger again, usually you would trade 1 Carrier for 1 Viking. However 3/3 Carriers Beat 3/3 Marines, even in WOL.
HOTS, this is now totally different. Voidrays with the initial charge completely wreck Vikings. The kiting is negated by the insane range of tempest. To fire a volley upon a tempest would put you in Voidray range, while the voidrays can use tempests to retreat.
3-5 templar thrown into the mix would also negate any marine or heavy viking play even more.
Thors, Ghosts, Ravens, Widowmines, all pretty much useless in that scenario
Vs Zerg
We have seen the strength of air even more in this matchup, especially White-Ra popularised the Carrier. Airplay can already be hard to deal with.
There are, right now exactly 2 Respones to actually killing Airplay.
1) Infestor Hydra - Might still work, however the tempest will Snipe any Infestor trying to do ninja fungals. And once you have templar i doubt that will work at all anymore.
2) Heavy corruptors - These like the vikings are considerd armored. Voidrays will destroy them MUCH more onesided than before. Infestors can be shut down by tempests
and templar.
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Other strengths of this build.
Phoenix, Oracle easily acsessable.
Photon Cannons / Zealots / Prism as mineral dumps.
Fleet beacon.
Mothership Core now here for early defense.
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You might be wondering how you can tech to that, and that if that worked you would see some form of it in WOL too.
HOWEVER the big problem is, in WOL, having this army would still let you lose against someone with superior economy. Now fights should be much more one sided towards protoss.
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Suggestions
Change the tempest to a ground unit. Giving it more weaknesses.
TL:DR
The tempests huge range fills holes in an unstoppable protoss army. While difficult to get to a combination of Voidray / Tempest / Templar can turn out to be a huge problem later on in the game.
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on a final note, I really hope that this is not imbalanced, I enjoy the tempest in its current state. I also play protoss, I just dont want the shift from the "unstoppable lowskill endgame army" to go from zerg to protoss. I don't think this will ever be a problem in PvT. To survive the midgame Protoss needs either really good upgrades as well as charge and blink/storm or a reasonable number of Colossi with range upgrades as well as armor. I mean, sure it might be possible to transition into that composition after minute 50 but even then I doubt there is any way to do so since the way fights work is that if one side has a disadvantage, the fight will snowball and end extremely one-sided. The big difference as to why Protoss will not get there (at least against Bio) is the macro mechanic of getting an incredible high number of Drones and later Spines, which combined with Infestors are extremely strong. Protoss cannot afford to rely on 8 Templars and 20 Cannons as only defense the way Zerg can. A single Storm will only delay an attack by 4 seconds and do minimal damage. A single Fungal hit means everything dies. In PvZ however I feel like Protoss can turtle their way into this composition. BUT, using any form of harass like Oracles or Phoenixes unsuccessfully will result in a loss if you try to get that unstoppable army. Already there are a lot of Zerg players out there that realise the potential of getting huge numbers of Roaches and Hydras quickly against Stargate turtle play. Again, a Storm does not mean everything dies, it means everything is damaged and/or delayed. Roaches can easily bait out 3 or 4 Storms and then burrow, wasting probably the majority of Storms available to delay the attack by 20 seconds. Also in all cases Protoss does not have the quick response that are Zerglings. True, sometimes Protoss is lucky and just got a round of warpins as the Medivacs/Mutas/Overlords approach but even then, the drops will often do considerable damage or open up vulnerabilities on other parts of the map. I think that this composition can be as broken as BL/Infestor, I don't know. However, without the Infestor and infinite supply of Spinecrawlers I think getting there will be incredibly hard. Getting the Gas for a couple of Storms Tempests and Void Rays as well as the upgrades requires AT LEAST 3 bases. In my experience Void Rays and Storm as well as +1 +1 Air upgrades are pretty hard to get off of 3 bases.
I think you hit a few really good points here. Protoss has to invest gas to survive early game. The reason why infestor/BL wasn't that big of an issue before the queen patch was because zerg had to invest gas into something other than infestors. Take TvZ as an example. Zerg were forced to spend gas into banelings to stop the early pressure attacks. Because of the constant fighting, it was better to also invest into mutas to snipe tanks for the banelings, and to harass terran as well. Now all of that gas is spent, zerg were getting >18 minute hives with only 5-7 infestors.
With the queen buff, zerg doesn't have to invest in gas anymore. So then they can build 10 infestors as soon as the pit finishes, which now means infestors will have enough fungals that you don't even need to spend any gas on anything but more infestors, and then we see 13 minute hives.
Protoss HAS to spend gas to surive. Protoss can not tech up to storm and rely on a 10 HT warpin to hold anything. Storm can only delay attacks, it can't end them like infestors. So to stop early pressure, protoss will probably have to invest into collosi against zerg, and sentries. Now there is so much gas invested into not HT/tempest/VR, the transition happens way later, allowing ample time to attack.
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I agree with that having an Unbeatable Deathball is a bad thing. BL/festor is bad for WoL balance, and any similar "unkillable" HoTS comp is equally bad for balance, no matter how gas-heavy or slow-moving it is. However, I haven't seen enough replay evidence to show that a Tempest/VR/Templar deathball is horribly broken.
Pre-nerf BL/Festor was horribly broken mainly because of the Festor. Pre-nerf Infestors could beat every unit in the game except for Tank/Colossus, and BLs took care of those. Mass festors (+ some spines) could defend against any midgame push. Post infested terran nerf they are considerably less strong, although BL/Festor is still an OP combo.
On the other hand, there is no "WoL infestor" in the HotS Skytossball. Tempests can snipe casters but are horribly weak to zerg air, and have laughable DPS against regular ground units. VRs destroy anything armored but lose to anything light. Phoenixes destroy mutas but lose to everything else. Templars destroy hydralisks but can be sniped by mutas or straight up A-moved by Ultras.
More importantly, Skytoss is NOT a powerful midgame defense. All protoss air units lose against straight-up mass Hydra, and going air first deprives you of the gas for Storm or Colossi. Going Templar first gives you a window of vulnerability to Ultras, and going Colossus first doesn't help you build a skytoss ball.
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you're very biased and you don't realize that it costs A INSANE AMOUNT of resources to get that composition you're naming....also the fact you mention that tempests snipe all infestors from afar? how the toss supposed to get vision if you have hydras? do you not realize you can get a overseer? what you're saying is all theorycrafting and little to no thought is put into how you can actually counter...you even realize how much toss had to deal with zerg's broodlord infestor in WoL? (WE had to deal with that composition as well, some people figured out how to bypass it maybe you should put some thought into it) In addition this game is STILL in beta, so how do you know this isn't going to change (when obviously the game isn't even near balance yet). And the last and very important point "I have not had a chance to play the HOTS Beta"....are you freaking kidding man? try out this so called "BROKEN" combo that you suggested before you say it at the very least...This is a bad OP and honestly should be closed
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cloudshade u rage too hard. This is a documented occurance in games. Watch streams for a bit this is how toss plays. Maybe not this exact unit composition but toss turtles on 3 bases held with the mothercore and builds air armies.
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My god... the deathball's grown wings!
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This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off.
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On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off.
Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player.
But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS.
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On January 04 2013 15:51 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS.
So I guess you could say void rays are the new colossus?
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On January 04 2013 16:19 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 15:51 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS. So I guess you could say void rays are the new colossus?
Colossus in small numbers was totally manageable with twilight/archon tech, or a bunch of gateway and heavy immortal. They were still a scourge upon the mirror, but they weren't utterly hilarious until quite late in the game.
Vrays, on the other hand, roflol all over the one toss ground unit which can act as AA, and do so the moment they appear. New voids really are kind of crazy in PvP. I suspect it might be possible to mondragon underneath them with zealot/archon, but I haven't seen it done yet.
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On January 04 2013 16:55 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 16:19 iKill wrote:On January 04 2013 15:51 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS. So I guess you could say void rays are the new colossus? Colossus in small numbers was totally manageable with twilight/archon tech, or a bunch of gateway and heavy immortal. They were still a scourge upon the mirror, but they weren't utterly hilarious until quite late in the game. Vrays, on the other hand, roflol all over the one toss ground unit which can act as AA, and do so the moment they appear. New voids really are kind of crazy in PvP. I suspect it might be possible to mondragon underneath them with zealot/archon, but I haven't seen it done yet.
To be fair, in all the games I've seen with early voids in PvP, the voids get focus fired fairly quickly and don't really do too much damage. Would like to see some reps where the void player straight up rolls a blink player in an even supply / cost fight.
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Voidrays have been the only counter to Voidrays in Wings of Liberty already. I found it always funny that no Protoss build them. So making the charge a one button skill made an overpowered due to its hard use unit super easy to use. I would have loved to see Voidray use in PvP on pro level, atleast some trying it out.
Because once my opponent went over 5 colossus they usually had no chance to win a fight against added in Voidrays. But master level is to far away from pro players build perfection, to say it would work there.
As for HotS Christmas break it seems, there is no doubt they will tweak recently changed units, so it becomes more fair. But it is sad that the Voidray will become an easy to use unit. I had high hopes that people would figure out ways to charge them really easily. But I guess to much attention needed at the highest level to do so.
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You're not in the beta. Don't post about it
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On January 04 2013 06:34 Existor wrote:
Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms.
Correction: Terrans in lategame cannot either. Tempests are too supply efficient for a unit that's meant to be used sparingly.
The game right now in lategame for Protosses that can turtle that far becomes worse than brood + infestor, it's tempest + templar.
You guys remember tempests were 6 supply at the start of beta? Yeah...that needs to happen again. Hell even 8 at this point, the unit is ridiculously broken in late game in every match-up (includes PvP).
And for people making ridiculous arguments "that's a lot of gas it should be powerful!" Um, no. No race in the game should have a lategame army that is nigh unbeatable. And if they do, the other races should have an equally accessible counter-option.
Zerg has no option against this lategame.
Terran's only option is "mass vikings" which is not really an "option" either.
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On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now.
Yes the deathball is a problem it seems like, but do you really feel zvp is boring and crappy in HotS? I enjoy it so much more, as it seems there are more viable options now other than bl infestor. I also feel like being a faster player shows in the outcome of games much more than it did for zergs in WoL.
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On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off.
I agree completely, but it shouldn't be unkillable. Even infestor BL wasn't unkillable with remaxing, and vortex of course.
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In my opinon all of you think as WOL players, late game is not only broodlord. Imagine Ultra + hydra + viper, ok lot of gaz like the P and you will rape his compo. Add some swarm host as support if you want...
Seems overpowerfull, but still you can always make a compo countering another it is just how to scout and to react. that sc2.
Just try to addapt your game and your compo instead of trying to copy paste the way you played in WOL.
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 04 2013 12:56 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 12:53 Belha wrote:
I want to correct 2 things about the OP. High master P here.
1) In most maps Carriers are better than Tempest.
2) While I agree that the composition is very very strong, getting it is really, REALLY hard. Much harder than what the OP shows. Is as hard as trying to get mass Bc's with terran (I guess, i'm not a T player). Harder to the point that if the P reach this army, then prolly he indeed was a better player than his opponent. It's not that hard to get it, not anywhere near as hard as for terran to get his composition. Especially if you open up 2 stargate voidray to begin with (which is very, very powerful).
PvZ: So it probably will come down to how reliably Zerg can put pressure on/do damage in the midgame; if it's not (easily) possible, we will end up in a situation reversed from WoL PvZ and that's shit. On the bright side (compared to WoL PvZ):
1) P (probably) can't turtle as well behind a wall of static defense like Zerg can because of the lack of creep, and the fact that cannons can't move.
2) Without anything like fungal defensively (i assume later in the game there won't be many sentries/oracles in play) it should be easy to retreat vs such a slow army.
3) P (probably) has other options (ground based army) to play a macro game, so (hopefully) there will be more variety in the matchup.
I feel like if this promotes more active play (even if p is usually defensive) that's kinda fine. Also, it depends on how "invincible" the army is; if we are at the levels of infestor/broodlord then it needs fixing asap but maybe with some tweaks (for instance change corruption/corruptors) Zerg could trade efficiently enough that it won't be as big of a problem.
No idea about how it works out in TvP. If it's something that's only available in super super lategame it's not as big of a problem.
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I can imagine this combination to be OP in a straight up fight, but I really doubt that it will come that far in competitive play.
The reasons why Zerg can go BL/Infestor so easy are:
Speedlings - Tons of map vision as well as a fast reaction to any sort of aggression (e.g. drops)
Queens - Transfusion to keep buildings alive, high ranged AA attack and creep spread for more map vision and even faster Zerglings
Spines and Spores - Zerg can Overdrone and when they need the supply the Drones gathered a lot of extra minerals that will be invested into (non)static defense.
What do all of these things have in common? They cost minerals only!
If Protoss wants a highly mobile group of units to react to drops that's gonna be Blink Stalkers.
If Protoss wants map control in early to mid game they probably get DTs or Colossi.
Photon Cannons can't move, that means Protoss has to push in waves of Cannons if they want them as described in the OP. Getting ten new Cannons every time you advance a little will cost a lot!
Plus, you know, Fungal and Infested Terrans are 100% different from what Templars can do.
I don't know if this unit combination is as good as people think it is. I know that Protoss will have a harder time getting there.
Plus, I am pretty sure the Void Ray will get nerfed a bit.
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On January 04 2013 09:06 Habitus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 06:17 weikor wrote:
Thors, Ghosts, Ravens, Widowmines, all pretty much useless in that scenario
Wondering how you find Ravens useless, when PDD stops Tempest shots, doesn't stop Voidray beams, and doesn't block Storm, ie all its energy can stop the Tempest harass as the Vikings kite the Voidrays in ' theory' Honestly thou, until HotS is released and people really practice and try things and refine builds to hold all the old + new pressures/timings we won't know if transitioning in to this comp is even possible ie in ' theory' Ghost, Raven, Battlecrusier is incredible powerful for Terran, but nobody uses it as you just die in trying to transition.
BC transition is just bad, because HT + Tempest is just eats it alive. Even you if land superduper EMPs, Tempest is just killing BC.
HT just feedbacks the PDD, if you make too much Raven and Viking to hold the Tempest, Protoss just makes 20stalker and 10zealot on the ground and just rolls you. Have fun with TvP mech.
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On January 04 2013 20:09 rEalGuapo wrote:
I can imagine this combination to be OP in a straight up fight, but I really doubt that it will come that far in competitive play.
The reasons why Zerg can go BL/Infestor so easy are:
Speedlings - Tons of map vision as well as a fast reaction to any sort of aggression (e.g. drops)
Queens - Transfusion to keep buildings alive, high ranged AA attack and creep spread for more map vision and even faster Zerglings
Spines and Spores - Zerg can Overdrone and when they need the supply the Drones gathered a lot of extra minerals that will be invested into (non)static defense.
What do all of these things have in common? They cost minerals only!
If Protoss wants a highly mobile group of units to react to drops that's gonna be Blink Stalkers.
If Protoss wants map control in early to mid game they probably get DTs or Colossi.
Photon Cannons can't move, that means Protoss has to push in waves of Cannons if they want them as described in the OP. Getting ten new Cannons every time you advance a little will cost a lot!
Plus, you know, Fungal and Infested Terrans are 100% different from what Templars can do.
I don't know if this unit combination is as good as people think it is. I know that Protoss will have a harder time getting there.
Plus, I am pretty sure the Void Ray will get nerfed a bit.
But you forget, that Tempest do shot in the air, and BL doesnot. So you dont need deadweight vikings and such. Just pure tempest and some HTs.
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While the composition sounds great in theory, it has the same weakness of BL/Infestor (immobility)
Also both HT and Tempest suck in killing buildings fast.
and how do you prevent any kind of Base Trade Scenario?
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On January 04 2013 20:56 freetgy wrote:
While the composition sounds great in theory, it has the same weakness of BL/Infestor (immobility)
Also both HT and Tempest suck in killing buildings fast.
and how do you prevent any kind of Base Trade Scenario?
the same way zerg defended in WoL. instead of mass spines + infestor you build mass cannons + HT. zerg will need BLs or MASS SH to attack into that which is a slow moving army itself. so yeah it is just OP right now and neither T nor Z can win against it. but its not a big deal since blizz will just patch it and its fine.
oh and btw it doesnt only sound great in theory. a lot of P players use it because it works insanely well in practice.
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On January 04 2013 06:34 Existor wrote:
Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms.
It's hard I agree but there are many way to attack the protoss before he is maxed^^
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On January 04 2013 18:26 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 06:34 Existor wrote:
Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms. Correction: Terrans in lategame cannot either. Tempests are too supply efficient for a unit that's meant to be used sparingly. The game right now in lategame for Protosses that can turtle that far becomes worse than brood + infestor, it's tempest + templar. You guys remember tempests were 6 supply at the start of beta? Yeah...that needs to happen again. Hell even 8 at this point, the unit is ridiculously broken in late game in every match-up (includes PvP). And for people making ridiculous arguments "that's a lot of gas it should be powerful!" Um, no. No race in the game should have a lategame army that is nigh unbeatable. And if they do, the other races should have an equally accessible counter-option. Zerg has no option against this lategame. Terran's only option is "mass vikings" which is not really an "option" either.
Wouldn't mass Thors be like a hard counter to that composition? Thors don't have energy anymore, are large units so storm isn't all that effective. And they can't be feedbacked anymore. Tempest doesn't do it's full damage against ground massive units (pitfull dps with huge overkill if they amassed them).
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Ghosts + Mass Rines + some Vikings ... Problem solved imo
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On January 04 2013 09:07 CthulhuWarlord wrote:
It is very common for toss to open with a quick stargate and go for void rays/oracles. Toss will tech behind ffe and forcefield and then use mothercore to take a third either aggressively with stalkers(so they can recall and face no risk) or defensively with minimum army while they spend on tech. They can get 2 stargates pumping out units while they STILL have enough mins/gas to afford storm and templars. IMO the problem with protoss right now is that the mothershipcore is too good. It makes early banshees/swarmhosts/dts COMPLETELY useless while providing a turbocannon that makes killing any nexus extremely hard. This means they have reduced how aggressive their opponents can be while at the same time increasing how defensive they can be. The relatively low cost of a mothershipcore doesn't make it a huge investment early game and it allows you to transition easily into a 3 base Toss. This forces Zergs and Terran to either severely damage their opponent and get FAR ahead before late game happens or to just allin and straight out kill him before late game happens. This means that zerg/terran will have to play super aggressive against protoss and this is imbalanced because of the defensive benefits from the mothershipcore. Zerg can try roach allins but roaches are armored so one voidray and good sentry walls stop this. IDK about what Terran can do to try stop this, maybe a viking/tank or viking/bio timing attack?
Heres a breakdown of the protoss air army DETAILING why it is so strong.
Oracle: This unit has an ability that allows it to do HEAVY damage to light units. IT HAS MORE DPS THAN A FUCKING ARCHON with a 3.375 move speed. It does 25 dps to workers(light units). It is a high speed maneuverable air unit with high potential to do HEAVY damage to your economy.
Voidray: This unit can do a potential 32 DPS to armored units. Granted it is normally just 12 it has potential to do 32 dps for 20 seconds. Not many full engages last longer than 20 seconds. This unit can do tremendous damage to any army composition that has a significant amount of armored *ground* units.
*Even Corruptors melt to it.
Mothershipcore: 100/100 cost. I'm not entirely sure what the exact dps of Photon Overcharge(Planetary Nexus) is but in game it is a lot. Envision, detection in a large area. You can see cloaked units and give a Nexus high dps/range. This is the ultimate defensive unit.
Tempest: This unit obsoletes broodlords, battlecruiser, and any other unit that unfortunatly is flying and massive. As soon as this unit is in play those other units are COMPLETELY useless. The reason being it has a 30(PLUS 50) #$%@ DAMAGE ATTACK to massive air units with more range than a tank. Not sure if it does 80 damage or 30 damage to Colossus. Zerg weep.
It may be brought up that these units don't have high hp. They don't need to. Protoss have three REALLY STRONG terrain controllers at their disposal. High Templar, Sentry, Oracle. It is almost never a good idea to attack INTO storms. Sentries have the capabilities to completely block passage. Oracles create a very large slowed area. A toss just has to pick one of these units that go well with his army comp and not herp derp fail with them. He can use these to effectively keep you far enough away from his units that they will not suffer much damage.
TL DR: Protoss is imbalanced because the mothershipcore provides too many defensive benefits that allows Protoss to easy 3base into an extremely high damage Deathball. This forces aggressive play from opponents that is punishable by just defending. The protoss can engage really well with his strong terrain control and his high dps units.
I don't get it ... why do ppl still complain about a race when it's still called a "beta" !?
Don't even touch the word imbalance if the final version of the game is not even out yet...
I personally think that Terran has a huge early game advantage, until you scout and find Terran, especially on a 4 player map, it's almost impossible to hold early agressions, most of the Protoss die directly and Zerg loses most of the mining time or has to invest into other units to be safe and can't really drone up
Edit: sry for double post
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1. It's beta. Unless you're IN the beta, stop making complex scenarios about what works and what not, what's broken and how. Have the decency of judging things you know, not those which you assume stuff about.
2. It's beta. Given this game's complexity, absolutely no one can know how things are balanced now, since you have so little time to play it and not enough experience to understand all the changes. We can only notice the big errors / unbalances (22 range tempest?).
3. It's beta. Do not expect for HotS to be perfect on 12.03.2013. It will still require fine tuning after having a lot more players playing a lot more games and after the "metagame" evolvs. Just like anything else.
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On January 04 2013 20:23 Breach_hu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 20:09 rEalGuapo wrote:
I can imagine this combination to be OP in a straight up fight, but I really doubt that it will come that far in competitive play.
The reasons why Zerg can go BL/Infestor so easy are:
Speedlings - Tons of map vision as well as a fast reaction to any sort of aggression (e.g. drops)
Queens - Transfusion to keep buildings alive, high ranged AA attack and creep spread for more map vision and even faster Zerglings
Spines and Spores - Zerg can Overdrone and when they need the supply the Drones gathered a lot of extra minerals that will be invested into (non)static defense.
What do all of these things have in common? They cost minerals only!
If Protoss wants a highly mobile group of units to react to drops that's gonna be Blink Stalkers.
If Protoss wants map control in early to mid game they probably get DTs or Colossi.
Photon Cannons can't move, that means Protoss has to push in waves of Cannons if they want them as described in the OP. Getting ten new Cannons every time you advance a little will cost a lot!
Plus, you know, Fungal and Infested Terrans are 100% different from what Templars can do.
I don't know if this unit combination is as good as people think it is. I know that Protoss will have a harder time getting there.
Plus, I am pretty sure the Void Ray will get nerfed a bit. But you forget, that Tempest do shot in the air, and BL doesnot. So you dont need deadweight vikings and such. Just pure tempest and some HTs.
Well, Infestors kill Vikings with chain fungals or Infested Terrans. HTs are good against Vikings but misscontrolling for half a second will not lose you 8 Vikings against Storm.
Still I don't know if Scan + killing Observers and Cloak+EMP can deal with the Templars as well as a ton of the Tempests' HP.
For now this is really really theoretical and without the resume from replay function we will probably not find out what actually happens for a long time.
With the resume function you could test different micro techniques as well as unit compositions really quickly.
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Theorycrafting without replays or anything else to back it up? I don't think this discussion will help HotS at all.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
IdrA already made reference to this in many of his interviews on HOTS. Suggest the only way to beat 'toss is to hit them in the early midgame/late midgame with roach hydra infestor/viper things. Not got his excat quote, but it was on the interview with DeMuslim as well earlier.
Protoss has always had the ultilities to be able to beat any race, but have never explored anything apart from collosus and templar play >.<
Watching the IPL show match of Korea vs ROW, and Squirtle did his mass carrier build vs Nerchio and just face rolled his corrupter/blord/infestor army with so much ease. (all be it, nerchio was in the dark and had about 3minutes of game time knowledge to counter that army)
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Isn't Protoss supposed to have the "strongest" army? The other races, particularly the Zerg who are supposed to have the "weakest" units must try and avoid it until they've damaged the Protoss economy enough so when they eventually fight it, Protoss has no way of rebuilding it. Even if you lose your entire army killing it, you can simply rebuild and beat it with a second army.
In any case, the best way to fight this kind of mass air composition is to abuse it's mobility. Fighting it head on only works for certain timings, before it's reached critical mass. Lots of Speedling and Speed Roach multiprong harassment is needed. Why would you want to attack 3/3 Skytoss + Templar with Zerg units which are too weak to put a dent into it? Ruin their economy, then you can try to make a couple direct engagements to win the game. Otherwise, you're going to have to deal with a Protoss remax, possibly even from tons of Warpgates, which can massacre your anti-air focused army.
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 04 2013 23:45 Arco wrote:
Isn't Protoss supposed to have the "strongest" army? The other races, particularly the Zerg who are supposed to have the "weakest" units must try and avoid it until they've damaged the Protoss economy enough so when they eventually fight it, Protoss has no way of rebuilding it. Even if you lose your entire army killing it, you can simply rebuild and beat it with a second army.
In any case, the best way to fight this kind of mass air composition is to abuse it's mobility. Fighting it head on only works for certain timings, before it's reached critical mass. Lots of Speedling and Speed Roach multiprong harassment is needed. Why would you want to attack 3/3 Skytoss + Templar with Zerg units which are too weak to put a dent into it? Ruin their economy, then you can try to make a couple direct engagements to win the game. Otherwise, you're going to have to deal with a Protoss remax, possibly even from tons of Warpgates, which can massacre your anti-air focused army.
While that can be true, as infestor/broodlord has shown sometimes the ability to turtle up ends up being too strong anyway. This is what people are concerned about.
On topic: i've played a few sky toss into templar games and holy fuck does it feel strong. So much stronger than using ground units :O
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On January 04 2013 23:45 Arco wrote:
Isn't Protoss supposed to have the "strongest" army? The other races, particularly the Zerg who are supposed to have the "weakest" units must try and avoid it until they've damaged the Protoss economy enough so when they eventually fight it, Protoss has no way of rebuilding it. Even if you lose your entire army killing it, you can simply rebuild and beat it with a second army.
In any case, the best way to fight this kind of mass air composition is to abuse it's mobility. Fighting it head on only works for certain timings, before it's reached critical mass. Lots of Speedling and Speed Roach multiprong harassment is needed. Why would you want to attack 3/3 Skytoss + Templar with Zerg units which are too weak to put a dent into it? Ruin their economy, then you can try to make a couple direct engagements to win the game. Otherwise, you're going to have to deal with a Protoss remax, possibly even from tons of Warpgates, which can massacre your anti-air focused army.
You can use this reasoning against any composition. But that doesnt make it true. It is really easy to say you should just ruin their economy, but with that logic we might as well triple the HP and attack of thors while keeping everything the same. Horribly overpowered? Nah, you should just ruin the terrans economy.
And all air compositions have fairly reasonable mobility. Sure not speedling mobility, but for example thor vs battlecruiser, battlecruiser mobility is far better. No idea what the raw speed numbers say, but not being affected by terrain and other units is huge for mobility.
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It's a frightening unit composition, but in reality it isn't that bad. The best response I've had in beta was from a GM player who responded the right way with a lot of corruptors during the time I was on 3 stargates but not Fleet Beacon tech yet. He soon after got swarm hosts, and I couldn't for the life of me stop the locust waves because the msc would get sniped while trying to detect and I had to focus on the swarm hosts instead of the corruptors.
Also, I really laugh at the "efficient" mineral dump in zealots... you're completely wasting hundreds of minerals if you zealot warp-in when fighting swarm hosts. That's not to say don't warp in zealots, because you have to, but come on.
TLDR: Masters/GM level there are responses to it and it isn't as bad as you think. Play the beta more.
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On January 04 2013 23:51 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 23:45 Arco wrote:
Isn't Protoss supposed to have the "strongest" army? The other races, particularly the Zerg who are supposed to have the "weakest" units must try and avoid it until they've damaged the Protoss economy enough so when they eventually fight it, Protoss has no way of rebuilding it. Even if you lose your entire army killing it, you can simply rebuild and beat it with a second army.
In any case, the best way to fight this kind of mass air composition is to abuse it's mobility. Fighting it head on only works for certain timings, before it's reached critical mass. Lots of Speedling and Speed Roach multiprong harassment is needed. Why would you want to attack 3/3 Skytoss + Templar with Zerg units which are too weak to put a dent into it? Ruin their economy, then you can try to make a couple direct engagements to win the game. Otherwise, you're going to have to deal with a Protoss remax, possibly even from tons of Warpgates, which can massacre your anti-air focused army. While that can be true, as infestor/broodlord has shown sometimes the ability to turtle up ends up being too strong anyway. This is what people are concerned about. On topic: i've played a few sky toss into templar games and holy fuck does it feel strong. So much stronger than using ground units :O
Turtling itself isn't the problem. There are a variety of 2 base and 3 base timings that are extremely hard to deal with for Zerg players trying to turtle up, just as there probably exist several timings to deal with Skytoss.
In regards to Skytoss, Zerg and Terran have plenty of different units to deal with it in a cost effective manner. The key to winning is to damage the economy. That way you can even beat it with weaker/lower tech units. It might require an army remax, but if his economy is in ruin he won't be remaking another army.
Dealing with it head to head is not something to take likely. Skytoss/Templar is the "best theoretical army" of Protoss. To fight it head to head you must also go for the "best theoretical army" of your race. This means a full late game scenario of maximizing your supply (sacrificing workers and useless army supply) and getting full upgrades with the best possible army to fight it. You can't just haphazardly try to attack it whenever you want. You probably won't even put a dent into it.
On January 04 2013 23:56 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 23:45 Arco wrote:
Isn't Protoss supposed to have the "strongest" army? The other races, particularly the Zerg who are supposed to have the "weakest" units must try and avoid it until they've damaged the Protoss economy enough so when they eventually fight it, Protoss has no way of rebuilding it. Even if you lose your entire army killing it, you can simply rebuild and beat it with a second army.
In any case, the best way to fight this kind of mass air composition is to abuse it's mobility. Fighting it head on only works for certain timings, before it's reached critical mass. Lots of Speedling and Speed Roach multiprong harassment is needed. Why would you want to attack 3/3 Skytoss + Templar with Zerg units which are too weak to put a dent into it? Ruin their economy, then you can try to make a couple direct engagements to win the game. Otherwise, you're going to have to deal with a Protoss remax, possibly even from tons of Warpgates, which can massacre your anti-air focused army. You can use this reasoning against any composition. But that doesnt make it true. It is really easy to say you should just ruin their economy, but with that logic we might as well triple the HP and attack of thors while keeping everything the same. Horribly overpowered? Nah, you should just ruin the terrans economy. And all air compositions have fairly reasonable mobility. Sure not speedling mobility, but for example thor vs battlecruiser, battlecruiser mobility is far better. No idea what the raw speed numbers say, but not being affected by terrain and other units is huge for mobility.
That's the whole element to StarCraft 2 (and even Brood War) that people don't really realize. The game ISN'T balanced equally. In fact, there are three unique races in the game. The game is only balanced if you play to make it that way. The topic creator lists unit compositions as the "best" solution to deal with Skytoss. There is no magical unit composition to win games. This is a real time strategy game. You must make do with what you have and utilize it in a correct way in order to win. What works for some players might not work for others because of playing it incorrectly.
Races are balanced differently. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses.
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On January 05 2013 01:14 tehemperorer wrote:
It's a frightening unit composition, but in reality it isn't that bad. The best response I've had in beta was from a GM player who responded the right way with a lot of corruptors during the time I was on 3 stargates but not Fleet Beacon tech yet. He soon after got swarm hosts, and I couldn't for the life of me stop the locust waves because the msc would get sniped while trying to detect and I had to focus on the swarm hosts instead of the corruptors.
Also, I really laugh at the "efficient" mineral dump in zealots... you're completely wasting hundreds of minerals if you zealot warp-in when fighting swarm hosts. That's not to say don't warp in zealots, because you have to, but come on.
TLDR: Masters/GM level there are responses to it and it isn't as bad as you think. Play the beta more.
I disagree with this, void rays demolish corruptors horribly now. They are not a great response to heavy stargate play imo, unless your opponent has skimped on void rays for some reason
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Ninja buffs to void ray in the last patch makes it the most powerful air unit in the game. All anti-air ground units can't beat void ray in the same supply or costs.
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On January 04 2013 08:54 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now. Is the protoss weak to a zerg timing before a critical mass of whatever the hell we turtle to is reached?
I don't know, was the zerg weak to a timing before bl/infestor in WoL? ahem (wonwonwon)
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 05 2013 01:37 joon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 08:54 Teoita wrote:On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now. Is the protoss weak to a zerg timing before a critical mass of whatever the hell we turtle to is reached? I don't know, was the zerg weak to a timing before bl/infestor in WoL? ahem (wonwonwon)
I'm talking more about something similar to 3base pushes. 2base WoL PvZ timings are completely different.
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On January 05 2013 01:54 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 01:30 larse wrote:
Ninja buffs to void ray in the last patch makes it the most powerful air unit in the game. All anti-air ground units can't beat void ray in the same supply or costs. Marines are even better against them unless I am mistaken.
No, if you don't micro marine properly, the new void ray will beat marine with the same supply. Crazy I know.
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On January 05 2013 03:28 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 01:54 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 05 2013 01:30 larse wrote:
Ninja buffs to void ray in the last patch makes it the most powerful air unit in the game. All anti-air ground units can't beat void ray in the same supply or costs. Marines are even better against them unless I am mistaken. No, if you don't micro marine properly, the new void ray will beat marine with the same supply. Crazy I know.
The Void Ray is the most expensive cost per supply unit in the game. Marines, like all T1 units, are very cheap per supply. 9 supply of Marines cost 450 minerals--9 supply of Voids cost 750 minerals and 450 gas. Comparing supply vs supply doesn't therefore doesn't seem all that useful.
It is worth noting that the extreme cost per supply of the Void makes it one of the most supply-efficient units to have in a 200/200 army. Its sort of like the anti-roach--Roaches are super cheap and fast to build, so pre-cap when supply isn't as important they're really strong, but just remaxing on Roaches isn't that good at all because they are really supply inefficient. Voids are expensive as hell, but once the supply cap is reached, they give you more punch for 3 supply than any non-caster in the game.
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It's very strong, yes, but this is a problem that is solvable by strategy rather than a patch. Zerg's just need to experiment more instead of defaulting to broodlord/infestor for every single PvZ. Not sure about the terran side of things
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On January 04 2013 15:51 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS.
Phoenixes were effective in WoL.
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On January 05 2013 04:43 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 15:51 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS. Phoenixes were effective in WoL.
archons are also pretty good
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so all the talk about how we can break up the deathball has gotten us... another deathball?
cmon blizzard. The changes so far in hots are dumb and poorly designed if you ask me, nothing has been done at all to make the game more interesting to play/watch.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 05 2013 04:14 J.E.G. wrote:
It's very strong, yes, but this is a problem that is solvable by strategy rather than a patch. Zerg's just need to experiment more instead of defaulting to broodlord/infestor for every single PvZ. Not sure about the terran side of things
The problem is that zerg don't have anti-caster abilities against templars
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On January 05 2013 01:27 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 01:14 tehemperorer wrote:
It's a frightening unit composition, but in reality it isn't that bad. The best response I've had in beta was from a GM player who responded the right way with a lot of corruptors during the time I was on 3 stargates but not Fleet Beacon tech yet. He soon after got swarm hosts, and I couldn't for the life of me stop the locust waves because the msc would get sniped while trying to detect and I had to focus on the swarm hosts instead of the corruptors.
Also, I really laugh at the "efficient" mineral dump in zealots... you're completely wasting hundreds of minerals if you zealot warp-in when fighting swarm hosts. That's not to say don't warp in zealots, because you have to, but come on.
TLDR: Masters/GM level there are responses to it and it isn't as bad as you think. Play the beta more. I disagree with this, void rays demolish corruptors horribly now. They are not a great response to heavy stargate play imo, unless your opponent has skimped on void rays for some reason
Yeah, holds true in space with no other units around. Reality is a ton of corruptors are a good response because you can't attack with gate/VR if you're not doing an early timing push, which skytoss is not. You actually get fleet beacon and ht because corruptors make it hard to attack.
In the game I was talking about, the other player got a ton of corruptors so I couldn't trade properly with him, then delayed until swarm hosts and just pushed with them. Corruptors were sniping my msc and I didn't have time to get obs in place before my 4th was destroyed so it was gg.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Rename that 3-word title to... Templarest, like short name Broodfestors
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On January 05 2013 04:55 Aveng3r wrote:
so all the talk about how we can break up the deathball has gotten us... another deathball?
cmon blizzard. The changes so far in hots are dumb and poorly designed if you ask me, nothing has been done at all to make the game more interesting to play/watch.
Deathball is basically unavoidable late game, no matter what you do. There are lots more options for early and mid game to really take advantage of small groups of units and multitasking. Even if you have the best designed RTS in the world, there will come a point where each players' huge armies have to meet.
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On January 05 2013 06:37 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 04:55 Aveng3r wrote:
so all the talk about how we can break up the deathball has gotten us... another deathball?
cmon blizzard. The changes so far in hots are dumb and poorly designed if you ask me, nothing has been done at all to make the game more interesting to play/watch. Deathball is basically unavoidable late game, no matter what you do. There are lots more options for early and mid game to really take advantage of small groups of units and multitasking. Even if you have the best designed RTS in the world, there will come a point where each players' huge armies have to meet.
yeah you are right about that. i think he means unbeatable deathball in WoL = BL infestor, in HOTS = airtoss + HT. but its still 2,5 months and there will be numerous patches after release. no problem to balance things out.
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If three bases are enough to create your race's perfect army composition, then the new maps need to give zerg and terran easy ways to force continuous engagements. A huge number of attack angles, bases with greater separation, I don't know, but there are always things that map makers can do to help fix balance issues.
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A HOTS GM named brownra did this to me once and it was the most painful game in the world. He put 2 cannons at his nat, 5 cannons at his 3rd, and 12 cannons at his 4th and like 30 cannons at his 5th. The only minerals he spent other than voidrays, carriers, tempests, and storm was 1 warp prism with like 6 warped in zealots. The rest was spent entirely on cannons. He took his half of the map and my broodlord infestor (pre infestor nerf) corruptor army couldnt touch his army whatsoever.
I even had my own 30+ spines/spores and I made like 3 remax broodlord corruptor infestor armies and none of them made a dent. After almost a 1 hour 20min game being mined out for 30min I attacked into his cannons and storm and lost.
I tried hydras, infested terran nydus, nothing worked. I had 3/3 air and 3/3/3 ground, ofcourse he had 3/3/3 air as well. It was a battle of who won't attack and it was extremely frustrating.
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
On January 05 2013 04:43 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 15:51 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS. Phoenixes were effective in WoL.
I think things HAVE to be powerful. There is a very fine line between being overpowered and being bad to useless. A lot of people have knee jerk reactions without realizing how much the game or unit interactions can evolve in time.
On game launch, many considered Marauders to be overpowered vs protoss for example, and through metagame development alone, they are not used nearly as much, nor really feared at all.
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On January 05 2013 07:56 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 04:43 Sabu113 wrote:On January 04 2013 15:51 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful.
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS. Phoenixes were effective in WoL. I think things HAVE to be powerful. There is a very fine line between being overpowered and being bad to useless. A lot of people have knee jerk reactions without realizing how much the game or unit interactions can evolve in time. On game launch, many considered Marauders to be overpowered vs protoss for example, and through metagame development alone, they are not used nearly as much, nor really feared at all.
Not that i agree with anything in this thread but this isn't really a fair comparison. If we were still playing on maps like steppes of war marauder proxies or straight up rushes amongst a lot of other things would be a bit ridiculous. And thats not even including all the balance changes we've had that affected this relationship like zealot charge buff, archon buff, rax build time changes, concussive research changes.
Blizzard avoided straight up nerfing the marauder, which was risky but ended up being a good call, but the relationship the unit has with protoss was addressed indirectly most definitely.
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On January 05 2013 01:30 larse wrote:
Ninja buffs to void ray in the last patch makes it the most powerful air unit in the game. All anti-air ground units can't beat void ray in the same supply or costs.
Charged beam only gives +damage to armored, not to anything else (correct me if I'm wrong), so Hydras, Queens, and Marines all should have no problems with them.
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Italy12246 Posts
While that is true, Protoss builds have evolved heavily too. From 1gate expand, to the emphasis on armor upgrades (and faster upgrades in general), to templar openings (which were popular only for a bit before the KA nerf, and then again after the archon buff and recently), to army compositions (less stalkers more zealots), we've done our fair share of innovations to beat marauders.
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With Zerg you chain fungal the Interceptors then Fly around behind the Carrier and kill them with corrupters...
Or you Chainfungal the Interceptors then Pull the Carrier with Viper and kill them with Hydras while the interceptors cant move...
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Come to think of it, it's not that bad... we'll see some entirely new playstyles, and while this build may be turtle-style, it's a lot harder to get than BL Infestor, which may open very interesting PvZs. Nothing for Terran, though :C
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I don't get it ... why do ppl still complain about a race when it's still called a "beta" !?
Don't even touch the word imbalance if the final version of the game is not even out yet...
I personally think that Terran has a huge early game advantage, until you scout and find Terran, especially on a 4 player map, it's almost impossible to hold early agressions, most of the Protoss die directly and Zerg loses most of the mining time or has to invest into other units to be safe and can't really drone up
Edit: sry for double post
I'm complaining because this version of the beta is imbalanced. I can and most certainly will call Protoss imba.
The beta is half about balance so if you can't call something imbalanced then the game is perfectly fine and needs to be released right now. You find the imbalances and get rid of them in a beta so you have to be able to confront the imbalances and not be fucking scared of talking about them.
I do play the beta and all these idiots making the bullshit "don't complain unless you're in it" are retards. You can watch streams and get a good idea of the beta meta. More so than playing it because most people aren't gm so watching someone play gm will show you a higher level of play that you won't be exposed to on the normal bronze-whatever-you-are ladder.
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Yeah right now air toss is definitely broken in PvZ. I don't think a zerg can possibly win versus air toss + HT.
PvP started to be interesting with Tempest (no more colossi war) but with the Voidray buff now it is Voidray vs Voidray. T_T
And in PvT, I don't think a toss air nerf would be a bad thing, it's useless vs bio anyway and you almost never see mech.
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On January 05 2013 07:26 TheGreenMachine wrote:
A HOTS GM named brownra did this to me once and it was the most painful game in the world. He put 2 cannons at his nat, 5 cannons at his 3rd, and 12 cannons at his 4th and like 30 cannons at his 5th. The only minerals he spent other than voidrays, carriers, tempests, and storm was 1 warp prism with like 6 warped in zealots. The rest was spent entirely on cannons. He took his half of the map and my broodlord infestor (pre infestor nerf) corruptor army couldnt touch his army whatsoever.
I even had my own 30+ spines/spores and I made like 3 remax broodlord corruptor infestor armies and none of them made a dent. After almost a 1 hour 20min game being mined out for 30min I attacked into his cannons and storm and lost.
I tried hydras, infested terran nydus, nothing worked. I had 3/3 air and 3/3/3 ground, ofcourse he had 3/3/3 air as well. It was a battle of who won't attack and it was extremely frustrating.
You should be trying to kill expansions, not his army. Fighting into it is a bad idea.
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Biggest difference between zerg BL/Infestor situation in WoL and Toss air in HotS is that a zerg could take the entire map while doing it. That is impossible for protoss even by not doing some kind of heavy composition strat.
That's where the balance lie. Low resources, strong compositions/units, more resources abit weaker compositions/units.
Imho it's just a matter of tuning the edge, the dynamic to me seems good. It was the same in BW.. I remember a game between Jaedong and free, and Jaedong was all over the place, had sick eco, and multi task, but free just kept hanging in there with a sick reaver/archon lategame composition that JD tried to run around. He couldnt engage it AT ALL and eventually died when he tried too. Sick game by free! I remember how JD was sweating like a madman after that game - it hurts to think about it =(.
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On January 04 2013 06:34 Existor wrote:
Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms.
Same as in WoL -> Corrupter hit carrier / mommaship -> clump -> stormuu. Happens when you stopped manmode and activated nancymode.
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On January 05 2013 11:14 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 06:34 Existor wrote:
Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms. Same as in WoL -> Corrupter hit carrier / mommaship -> clump -> stormuu. Happens when you stopped manmode and activated nancymode.
The difference is that the long range toss air in WoL is hardcountered by fungal. In HotS that's no longer the case for several reasons.
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It feels like playing against a mech terran, except it is much more mobile and difficult to fight against if the ball gets too big
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I have played against a toss that did this comp but to also add insult to injury used tempest to clear creep and placed offensive nexus so it was impossible to get a decent engagement. Even though I was 2 or 3 base ahead all game I simply couldn't make a dent ever no matter how many 3/3 maxed armies I sent and remaxed on. They melted...and melted again. I even tried the fixed ground spore crawler, spine, infestor, viper, hydra but couldn't get vipers close enough to obduct due to tempests.
It will get nerfed...just hold tight. Although we may suffer through 80% loss rates in the matchup for a while  .
Basically I revert to all-in off two or three base with either roach, infestor timing or hydra ling timing.
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Both Voidrays alone and Tempest/HT is broken vs Terran.
VoidRays currently have no working counter and needs less DPS.
Tempest need less hp so that units that manages to reach them actually can kill them.
I am confident that Blizzard will fix this since it is pointless to test the rest of the game until this is fixed.
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On January 04 2013 07:12 TheSambassador wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT. Void rays are significantly more costly (250/150 vs 150/100). One Void Ray SHOULD beat one corruptor.
You didn't pay attention to the wording or else intentionally ignored it (the former, I expect).
"PER COST".
Corruptors are poor vs void rays per cost, especially now in HotS.
Mutalisks are also actually not cost efficient against void rays, at best, with full bounces, they're about even.
People's comments about how good Mutalisks are against void rays are like the arguments people would make about Mutalisks vs Goliaths in BW that used to occur before Mech featured a resurgence.
They would always base "how good they are" based on what they'd seen, without thinking about the fact that they would almost always see a significantly higher resource value of mutalisks fighting the goliaths, so the mutas would win, when cost for cost gollies were pretty good against mutas.
This is the same situation, where people treat it like mutas slaughter void rays cost for cost, when that's simply not true.
You can argue that mutalisks are a reasonable response to void rays as long as you have the resources, available supply and (pretty damn likely) the larva for more than equal value amounts, but calling them a 'counter' when they're typically at least a little cost inefficient is absolute bullshit.
Then there's supply. If it typically takes say 1.8 mutas to a void ray, that's 3.6 supply for every void ray, which somehow, to this day, has not been fixed so that it costs the appropriate 4 supply. They cos more than immortals and yet use less supply. Hydralisks are meant to be very good against void rays, but while they are cost-efficient against void rays, they're supply inefficient, as, like mutalisks, you need a bare minimum of about 1.7 per void ray, probably more, which obviously totals more than the 3 supply void rays need despite hydras being a direct 'counter'. Fix void rays to make sure they're strong enough without being over powered, but do it with them centred around using the 4 supply they bloody well should (and should have since the WoL beta).
Grruauuaueeghhh. All this in ZvP when we also have supply-obese roaches. Gkkkhhhaaerrrgh.
I'm not sure right now, but I'd have thought the Tempest would be fine (maybe the 80 total vs massive should be 60 otherwise?) so long as the rest of the composition is balanced although again, the supply efficiency is .....questionable, using only 4.
Aren't they as good as Colossi and Ultralisks?*
*The current Ultras are so good you can probably expect them to be nerfed but remain at 6 supply. I'm not as confident Blizzard will change the supply cost of the Tempest.
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On January 05 2013 20:21 MockHamill wrote:
Both Voidrays alone and Tempest/HT is broken vs Terran.
VoidRays currently have no working counter and needs less DPS.
Tempest need less hp so that units that manages to reach them actually can kill them.
I am confident that Blizzard will fix this since it is pointless to test the rest of the game until this is fixed.
Or perhaps try harder to figure out a counter? There's been situations where things looked utterly overpowered until someone comes along wiht a new playstyle that completely destroys it.
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On January 04 2013 23:45 Arco wrote:
Isn't Protoss supposed to have the "strongest" army?
I don't think that's necessary for the identity of the race. In Broodwar, nothing but a superior economy could touch 3/3 200 supply terran mech. Protoss is not imperatively about the strongest army, but about the strongest (yet costly) individual units, which is a big difference.
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i simply cant win against this. hydras, mutas and queens are 100% useless. that leaves corruptor and infestor. but even 2-4 bases up and 4 remaxes get destroyed so easily. it just makes me sad right now. dont know what else to try. they just build 5-20 cannons at their expansions so you need SH or BLs to attack into them which means you have even less AA or you dont attack, take all bases....and lose because their army beats a 4 time remax. back to all ins in ZvP it seems ^^
last thing i can think of is building an retardedly high amount of spores. like literally 100-200. maybe that works?!
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On January 05 2013 23:20 Decendos wrote:
i simply cant win against this. hydras, mutas and queens are 100% useless. that leaves corruptor and infestor. but even 2-4 bases up and 4 remaxes get destroyed so easily. it just makes me sad right now. dont know what else to try. they just build 5-20 cannons at their expansions so you need SH or BLs to attack into them which means you have even less AA or you dont attack, take all bases....and lose because their army beats a 4 time remax. back to all ins in ZvP it seems ^^
last thing i can think of is building an retardedly high amount of spores. like literally 100-200. maybe that works?!
You got a replay of a game like that?
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Why would spores help against 15 or whatever range tempests >.<
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On January 05 2013 23:30 Nimix wrote:
Why would spores help against 15 or whatever range tempests >.<
well lets say it this way. if he builds tempest your infestor corruptor combination gets stronger and he needs a lot of time to kill them. but it was only a suggestion because honestly i think right now you have just lost the game once he reaches 170+ supply of air which is pretty easy doable at the 20 min mark.
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whats the point of building tempests? i mean, maybe 3-4 in skytoss + templars compositions are okay, but they do very little dps unless fighting massive air units. they mainly counter colossi, broodlords and battlecruisers - two of them air antiground and bc are well, easy to deal with i guess because i have yet to see them in hots beta (nearly 400 games played)
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whats the point of building tempests? i mean, maybe 3-4 in skytoss + templars compositions are okay, but they do very little dps unless fighting massive air units. they mainly counter colossi, broodlords and battlecruisers - two of them air antiground and bc are well, easy to deal with i guess because i have yet to see them in hots beta (nearly 400 games played)
Upgraded tempests do quite well against mech or against casters. They allow the toss to micro their army so that Templar, infestor, ghost, science vessel, viper, are completely useless because they cannot get in range. it forces you to bring your whole army with you to cast anything which means you're taking damage while they keep microing back. In the case of zerg they don't even need to...because we just melt in about 2 - 3 seconds.
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So I just ran into a similar combo as terran. Colossi + toss air (so carrier, pest, void and oracle). I just pumped out pure marines and vikings, and never came close to winning. How to counter it?
Pre-emptively some responses:
"You shouldnt let him get there"
1. That is not an answer how to counter it, and is not relevant.
2. HotS heavily boosted toss early game, so that is not an option. Then I think this will start to look like WoL PvZ: You got one small window in mid game to make a push, and before that you cant do anything, and after that window you lost.
"You are more mobile, attack where he isnt with your army"
1. Since I cant teleport over the map, and he can, I would say he is more mobile.
2. Actually he forgot to take his MsC with him, so this case he couldnt teleport. But the result? I sack his main + natural, he sacks my main + natural, his army is still superior.
Oh he had 1/1/0 while I had 3/1 and later 3/2 on bio. Considering how hard carriers need attack upgrades he would have had an even stronger army if he would have gotten them.
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On January 06 2013 01:32 Sissors wrote:
So I just ran into a similar combo as terran. Colossi + toss air (so carrier, pest, void and oracle). I just pumped out pure marines and vikings, and never came close to winning. How to counter it?
Pre-emptively some responses:
"You shouldnt let him get there"
1. That is not an answer how to counter it, and is not relevant.
2. HotS heavily boosted toss early game, so that is not an option. Then I think this will start to look like WoL PvZ: You got one small window in mid game to make a push, and before that you cant do anything, and after that window you lost.
"You are more mobile, attack where he isnt with your army"
1. Since I cant teleport over the map, and he can, I would say he is more mobile.
2. Actually he forgot to take his MsC with him, so this case he couldnt teleport. But the result? I sack his main + natural, he sacks my main + natural, his army is still superior.
Oh he had 1/1/0 while I had 3/1 and later 3/2 on bio. Considering how hard carriers need attack upgrades he would have had an even stronger army if he would have gotten them.
do you have a replay?.....cuz he had carrier, tempest, oracles, voids AND colossi? what where you doing for the first 20 minutes of the game? Thats a ton of gas. Was the protoss on 5 bases while you where on 3? Sorry to say but from what your describing and without a replay best we can do is tell you that you where outplayed
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I wish there was at least once this "when he gets to X/X/X, it is really, really, really hard to beat it" for Terran..
Especially, when you take into account, that Terran builds and remaxes the slowest.
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On January 06 2013 02:07 Everlong wrote:
I wish there was at least once this "when he gets to X/X/X, it is really, really, really hard to beat it" for Terran..
Especially, when you take into account, that Terran builds and remaxes the slowest.
Yeah...something about battlecruisers
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air protoss remaxes pretty much as slow. (chronoboost helps, but so does reactor)
but yeah, in some super-late scenario you could switch and mass warp ground units too but then again, terran has like 30-40 more army value in longest games thanks to mules
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On January 06 2013 02:07 Everlong wrote:
I wish there was at least once this "when he gets to X/X/X, it is really, really, really hard to beat it" for Terran..
Especially, when you take into account, that Terran builds and remaxes the slowest.
There is one in WoL; Ghost/BC against protoss. There is no way to stop it. For a good example, watch MVP v Squirtle GSL finals game 6. MVP is walking all over squirtle untill he makes a horrible mistake and gets his BCs archon toileted, which never should have happened with yamato/emp (MVP even says that after the game, that he played horribly to lose with that composition).
I still suspect that ghost/BC will be almost impossible to beat in HotS as well. If you get this composition up, then you also have tens of spare OCs, which means you can spam scans picking off observers, so sniping HT will be pretty easy unless they retreat to a base. In which case, you can move in with BCs to yamato the army/nexus.
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 06 2013 03:12 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 02:07 Everlong wrote:
I wish there was at least once this "when he gets to X/X/X, it is really, really, really hard to beat it" for Terran..
Especially, when you take into account, that Terran builds and remaxes the slowest. There is one in WoL; Ghost/BC against protoss. There is no way to stop it. For a good example, watch MVP v Squirtle GSL finals game 6. MVP is walking all over squirtle untill he makes a horrible mistake and gets his BCs archon toileted, which never should have happened with yamato/emp (MVP even says that after the game, that he played horribly to lose with that composition). I still suspect that ghost/BC will be almost impossible to beat in HotS as well. If you get this composition up, then you also have tens of spare OCs, which means you can spam scans picking off observers, so sniping HT will be pretty easy unless they retreat to a base. In which case, you can move in with BCs to yamato the army/nexus.
The difference is, it's more or less impossible for Terran to transition into it off either Bio or Mech consistently on a vast majority of maps.
On the other hand, WoL's Zerg and Hots' Protoss midgame (infestor/ling or double stargate) always lend themselves very well to the "deathball transition" (just add storm or a greater spire once you have the gas income available).
Again, the true concern isn't that there is one race with an endgame army that's too strong, but rather that that endgame army might be too easy to obtain (like infestor/broodlord was in WoL).
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On January 06 2013 01:52 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 01:32 Sissors wrote:
So I just ran into a similar combo as terran. Colossi + toss air (so carrier, pest, void and oracle). I just pumped out pure marines and vikings, and never came close to winning. How to counter it?
Pre-emptively some responses:
"You shouldnt let him get there"
1. That is not an answer how to counter it, and is not relevant.
2. HotS heavily boosted toss early game, so that is not an option. Then I think this will start to look like WoL PvZ: You got one small window in mid game to make a push, and before that you cant do anything, and after that window you lost.
"You are more mobile, attack where he isnt with your army"
1. Since I cant teleport over the map, and he can, I would say he is more mobile.
2. Actually he forgot to take his MsC with him, so this case he couldnt teleport. But the result? I sack his main + natural, he sacks my main + natural, his army is still superior.
Oh he had 1/1/0 while I had 3/1 and later 3/2 on bio. Considering how hard carriers need attack upgrades he would have had an even stronger army if he would have gotten them. do you have a replay?.....cuz he had carrier, tempest, oracles, voids AND colossi? what where you doing for the first 20 minutes of the game? Thats a ton of gas. Was the protoss on 5 bases while you where on 3? Sorry to say but from what your describing and without a replay best we can do is tell you that you where outplayed
Reread point 1.
(And no we were fairly even economy wise, did also do quite some drops on him, so he had to spend some energy on his MsC).
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Every race should have a 10K gas army that can roll over 75% of comps.
See BL/infestor into 6 base mass 3/3 ling remax.
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On January 05 2013 22:40 dust7 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 23:45 Arco wrote:
Isn't Protoss supposed to have the "strongest" army? I don't think that's necessary for the identity of the race. In Broodwar, nothing but a superior economy could touch 3/3 200 supply terran mech. Protoss is not imperatively about the strongest army, but about the strongest (yet costly) individual units, which is a big difference.
Dragoon/Carrier/High Templar could deal with Mech quite handily, but it was difficult to get to that (much like the Terran lategame in SC2), or even make that composition work. Like you said, Protoss needed a superior economy to beat it. That's why it was standard to stay a base up in BW PvT to deal with it.
What was much more realistic in Brood War was Protoss having to use Arbiters to Recall and destroy Terran's economy if they wanted to use a standard ground army (considered weaker than mech) to win. Players who want to overcome the might of Skytoss in StarCraft 2 should learn from these lessons. Destroy the Protoss economy. Keep him at home. Hit them at multiple locations at once. Drops and multiprong harass is so important.
You can't just fight Skytoss with a weaker army on equal economies and expect to win the game. Skytoss will deal with your weaker army cost effectively, and easily rebuild the lost units. You must engineer a strategy to make the Protoss player crumble.
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Tempest+ht is the new broodlord-infestor. And for "new broodlord-infestor" i don't mean simply "op", I mean a slow-moving, high range-based composition: broodlord-infestor range = 9-10 (9-12 in hots, including +2 fungal radius) tempest-ht range = 15-10.5 (including +1.5 storm radius).
Range is an important factor, you can't beat this composition if as soon as you enter in its range you take a lot of damage by tempests and especially storms (before you can even shoot).
At the moment i see the tempest as a too much all-round unit (despite the huge vs. massive air bonus) . I haven't tried it out very well against terran yet but against zerg, I see that every composition he uses i am able to counter it with tempests+ht.
It's clear that facing this kind of armies is a bit boring because they lead the player who uses it to turtle for all the lategame, until he can force an engagement that he can't lose.
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On January 06 2013 05:20 Arco wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 22:40 dust7 wrote:On January 04 2013 23:45 Arco wrote:
Isn't Protoss supposed to have the "strongest" army? I don't think that's necessary for the identity of the race. In Broodwar, nothing but a superior economy could touch 3/3 200 supply terran mech. Protoss is not imperatively about the strongest army, but about the strongest (yet costly) individual units, which is a big difference. Destroy the Protoss economy. Keep him at home. Hit them at multiple locations at once. Drops and multiprong harass is so important. You can't just fight Skytoss with a weaker army on equal economies and expect to win the game. Skytoss will deal with your weaker army cost effectively, and easily rebuild the lost units. You must engineer a strategy to make the Protoss player crumble.
This is a fallacy you could use to accept every lategame imbalance. Lets triple thor hp and attack. Then I can also say you should drop me and do multiprong harass, so the new thor is fine. And you should engineer a strategy to make the thor user crumble.
The problem isnt that you cant fight the skytoss with a weaker army, the problem is you cant fight the skytoss with any army (unless you have ideas).
Why would the toss let me destroy his economy? The first drop he activates photon overcharge and that one is fine. Then one thing a skytoss doesnt lack is minerals,so he has no reason not to fill each expansion with quite some photon cannons. If he stays at home, how would that help me kill his army? More important, why would he stay at home? Drops he can now easily fend off with photon cannons. So only larger forces can deal damage. If you can split your army, so can he to defend. More important if he attacks you, what do you do? Walk around his army and attack his base? Then he teleports back to his base and kills your army. Or he kills your base, and now you both have no base, and his army is still superior.
Just to prevent misunderstandings: Do I think it is impossible to beat a skytoss army? Well it is kinda early to say that, I hope to be proven wrong, but atm I think so. And that is very bad, no army should be unbeatable. Nice he spend a ton of gas on it, then zerg and terran should also be able to spend a ton of gas on such an army that can trade evenly.
Do I think it is a strategy that cant be beaten? Hell no. It can be beaten, the question is do we want it like this? To me it seems like a new PvZ, which was most horrible matchup ever. Early game you cant beat them due to MsC + all their all-in options you need to watch for. MsC also gives them nice drop protection. Late game when they have their army you cant beat them. So what remains is mid-game timing pushes, ala immortal all-in in PvZ. And do we really wants such matchups?
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This composition is not really a problem I think.
Vikings still own protoss air, you need a obscene amount of tempests to protect your voidrays from being kited. For example if you just have 4 tempests you need 2 volleys to kill a viking so terran can easily kite your voidrays and geting out ahead. If you have a bigger amount of tempests though you won't have enough voids and they can just move in. Voids got slightly better straight up vs vikings but the charge can also be baited or run out. Carrier/tempest is scarier but the point is moot really as air is absolute crap against bio anyway and terran is not really doing mech for a bunch of reasons already...
Against zerg airtoss is fairly strong now but I feel hydra/viper/corruptor/infestor does fine. Voidray/colossus is FAR more dangerous than voidray/tempests really, tempests are a complete joke as long as you're not countering broodlords with them in this matchup. I still think hydra's need a small buff, for example +10 hp so they actually become a decent unit unlike the crap they still are now. It's also better for ZvZ if muta or hydra are both viable options.
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On January 06 2013 21:15 Markwerf wrote:
This composition is not really a problem I think.
Vikings still own protoss air, you need a obscene amount of tempests to protect your voidrays from being kited. For example if you just have 4 tempests you need 2 volleys to kill a viking so terran can easily kite your voidrays and geting out ahead. If you have a bigger amount of tempests though you won't have enough voids and they can just move in. Voids got slightly better straight up vs vikings but the charge can also be baited or run out. Carrier/tempest is scarier but the point is moot really as air is absolute crap against bio anyway and terran is not really doing mech for a bunch of reasons already...
Against zerg airtoss is fairly strong now but I feel hydra/viper/corruptor/infestor does fine. Voidray/colossus is FAR more dangerous than voidray/tempests really, tempests are a complete joke as long as you're not countering broodlords with them in this matchup. I still think hydra's need a small buff, for example +10 hp so they actually become a decent unit unlike the crap they still are now. It's also better for ZvZ if muta or hydra are both viable options.
do you even have the beta? sorry but you are so wrong in every point you say. bio gets killed by air + timewarp + storm, vikings trade very bad with storm involved, hydras...lol, corruptors get raped by voids and storm, infestor would need 20 or so fungals to kill tempest/carrier and IT are 100% useless now in lategame + viper is a really bad unit vs HT with feedback, tempest with range 15, carrier with range 12 and blinding cloud not affecting air even.
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Even if this was the strongest unit composition in HotS it's still really hard to get to and one of the most costly compositions.
It's extremely slow, basically has tons of weaknesses, but yes, this is pretty much impossible to engage I imagine.
You can however kinda engage and then easily disengage this, with current Broodlord/Infestor compositions this is not the case.
I think that Oracles need to be included in this by the way.
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On January 06 2013 21:28 ejozl wrote:
Even if this was the strongest unit composition in HotS it's still really hard to get to and one of the most costly compositions.
It's extremely slow, basically has tons of weaknesses, but yes, this is pretty much impossible to engage I imagine.
You can however kinda engage and then easily disengage this, with current Broodlord/Infestor compositions this is not the case.
I think that Oracles need to be included in this by the way.
So infestor BL was also fine since it is costly? And could you inform us what those tons of weaknesses are? Because no one has figured them out yet (except you).
Not to mention saying it is extremely slow is BS. It is way faster than for example mech. Aditionally since it is largely air it can go over terrain, making the effective speed much higher. And finally teleporting across the map in a few seconds is not what most people would call slow.
@Markwerf: Vikings own toss air? No. They get cost effectively killed by almost all toss air units. Bio cost effectively kills toss air, not population effective tough. Let alone the rate at which they die with colossi mixed in (or HT). In WoL it was virtually impossible to get such an air army, and it was weaker. In HotS toss early game got enormously boosted, making them virtually immune to every early attack. So only mid-game timing pushes remain, ala PvZ.
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On January 06 2013 21:21 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 21:15 Markwerf wrote:
This composition is not really a problem I think.
Vikings still own protoss air, you need a obscene amount of tempests to protect your voidrays from being kited. For example if you just have 4 tempests you need 2 volleys to kill a viking so terran can easily kite your voidrays and geting out ahead. If you have a bigger amount of tempests though you won't have enough voids and they can just move in. Voids got slightly better straight up vs vikings but the charge can also be baited or run out. Carrier/tempest is scarier but the point is moot really as air is absolute crap against bio anyway and terran is not really doing mech for a bunch of reasons already...
Against zerg airtoss is fairly strong now but I feel hydra/viper/corruptor/infestor does fine. Voidray/colossus is FAR more dangerous than voidray/tempests really, tempests are a complete joke as long as you're not countering broodlords with them in this matchup. I still think hydra's need a small buff, for example +10 hp so they actually become a decent unit unlike the crap they still are now. It's also better for ZvZ if muta or hydra are both viable options. do you even have the beta? sorry but you are so wrong in every point you say. bio gets killed by air + timewarp + storm, vikings trade very bad with storm involved, hydras...lol, corruptors get raped by voids and storm, infestor would need 20 or so fungals to kill tempest/carrier and IT are 100% useless now in lategame + viper is a really bad unit vs HT with feedback, tempest with range 15, carrier with range 12 and blinding cloud not affecting air even.
don't be such an asshole.
Yes I have the beta for quite a while..
Against bio I still think an air composition is a joke, interceptors still die really quickly and tempest DPS against non-massive is a complete joke. Obviously templars are good but that's just the classic EMP vs storm battle which we've seen throughout WoL already.. Getting to carriers with equal upgrades as bio ground is really difficult since you will need those ground upgrades too, unless you're against mech it's just better to stick with the standard colossus/ht/zealot/stalker stuff.
It more seems you haven't been playing the beta because timewarp+storm is hardly being used at all since time warp sucks. Only 50% movement reduction in a very small area, by the time your storm hits the bio has almost moved out of the time warp area already... Not even mentioning EMP makes oracles 100% useless making it terrible to even include oracles against terran later on..
Yes against zerg I agree the lategame protoss composition is a bit too strong now probably and a small hydra buff would be good for the game. Not so much because of airtoss though but more because the classic lasertoss (colossus,stalker,sentry) is just really good again since broodlords are easily countered now and fungal was nerfed.
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Italy12246 Posts
Lasertoss is actually the old name for colossus void ray afaik 
Also i'd rather see a buff/change to corruptors than hydras. I think hydras are pretty ok, and i'm actually struggling quite a bit to have a solid midgame buidl that isn't double stargate because of how strong hydra pushes are, combined with the fact that vipers are scary as shit :O
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Actually this strat is indeed weak to timings, but if it ever gets to late game then it is still possible to beat it.
I've tried a number of things against this strat, but what works best for me, is infestor (20+) hydra ultra.
Any strat involving corruptors does not work. Void rays kill them too quickly.
The ultras (4-5 max) are just there to tank up the initial damage, giving you time to spam infested terrans. If toss is low on ground units, they will also kill those pesky templars allowing your infestors to get close for fungals.
The hydras are there to buffer the period when your infested terrans are not up yet as the carrier's interceptors will attack the hydras.
Once the infested terran ball is up, it will trade somewhat evenly vs this army even on 3/3 vs 0/0 infested terrans.
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On January 07 2013 04:19 Ulargg wrote:
The ultras (4-5 max) are just there to tank up the initial damage, giving you time to spam infested terrans. If toss is low on ground units, they will also kill those pesky templars allowing your infestors to get close for fungals.
Air units dont auto-attack ultras when there are units with anti-air attack also.
And honestly, I am very sceptical how good ITs do against 3 armor upgrade carriers. That means they have 5 armor, so ITs only do 3 damage on them. Not to mention what happens when he targets fire the infestors.
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The intention of the ultras is to draw fire from archons and templars. Without ultras your hydras and infestors will just get stormed/ feedbacked to death. The carriers will initially attack the ultras until the hydras get in range. Then they will swap targets to hydras. This gives the time you need.
The infested terrans are more about numbers than about their actual dmg. If you spam 60 of them and toss can't storm, cause the ultras killed his templars, they still kill really quick
You are absolutely right though that with infestor focus fire it becomes difficult. That's why I stated, it trades somewhat evenly. Much better at least than any other composition.
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ive found that if i can get mass corruptor out before he gets archon/ht out i can actually manage any air he throws at me. Which lets me contain him for a short time. However once he gets a couple ht/archon corruptors are useless. Even if i can keep the deathball at base i cant put any pressure on the protoss bases because he sits behind his cannons,
I play it like i use to play zvp in wol beta when strats werent solid yet. Just keep trading armies.I normally now just rely on mainly hydra(and a handful of roaches) and keep the pressure on. It can get dicey because if you over commit and dont get eco in there too you really get screwed. And you have to make sure you scout his base because if he get collo out before your vipers you get rolled unless you get a surround. However if they stabilize and get to the air dball,i still havent found a solid way to stop it.
If only blizzard wasn't afraid of bringing in old units or skills dark swarm would fix all this
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hots is becoming a real joke. And this isnt something that can be fixxed with just a measily patch. This is a unit design flaw. The only fix is a complete revamp or removal of said problematic units.
With blizzard already cutting the warhound, and axing the widowmine to an almost useless function, and the battlehellion barely panning out to be used, i'd say terran isnt look taht good off. Zerg problems stem from the fact that swarmhost seems nigh useless when not massed. Making this a really iffy unit. i mean the only time you can use swarmhosts is if you really commit to atleast 8 of them. They arent like the lurkers where you only needed like 2 to hold down an area decently.
The viper has destroyed terran mech, and it seems it will be a core unit in upcoming strategys where zergs only seem to care about the vipers and everything else is expendable. As long as the vipers live they will rape. Something about the scorpion get over here just not seem like an ability that should be in a balanced RTS game.
And for protoss, their changes have been the most ludacris i have seen. If people are smart, everyone should switch to protoss if you are trying to become a progamer. The core stops all timings early game, allows greedy play... And now protoss are on the verge of an unbeatable lategame really boring stalemate promoting army. Turtling with tempests and teasing out the AA to get stormed.
Not looking good at all folks. I hope the entire beta is scrapped.
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High diamond / low master Z here.
Protoss air seems incredibly strong at the moment. It's not even this specific composition I've a gripe with; what bothers me is the catch-all tech structure the Stargate has become. Toss can blindly open Stargate versus Zerg every game and be safe from any and all early / cheesy Zerg aggression via the mothership core. The Stargate itself can either Voidrays to defend from any and all midgame Zerg aggression until some two minutes after Lair's done, and Oracles for insanely effective harrassment (which means gg if zerg isn't defended with 1.5 spores per oracle per base and/or Lair 50% done or almost done). Later in the game, tempests can be slowly added to the toss army, and once they reach a critical number (say 8?), it's surprisingly difficult for Zerg to do anything effective to them; their ungodly range, burst damage, HP (350? 450?), inexplicably low supply cost, and the terrible, terrible damage they deal to retreating units make them stupidly effective against Corruptors in long macro games. Additionally, Phoenixes in any numbers greater than four completely shut down X number of mutalisks. This leaves Hydras as the only counter to toss airplay, and everyone on this forum knows Colossi fry Hydras all day long (Additionally, Tempests vaporize Hydras in high numbers anyway)
If everything I'm saying is deluded and silly, I apologize.
tl;dr: Stargate is too much of a catch-all toolbox for toss, and tempests scale too well with numbers for what they're supposed to be.
Edit: burst damage
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I dont think this is about "the unresolved early game".
Sure, there will be difficulties for the protoss to get this composition, some early game timings will evolve - protoss will figure out how to hold it. Then some more strategies will emerge, and protoss figures out how to get past it.
The same thing happened with broodlord infestor.
The biggest problem I forsee with this composition, is storm and voidrays make it too cost effective.
Im totally fine if an army is hard to get to, and then its stronger.
However that army might be 30-50% stronger than everything, so a players would be able to trade large armies (because they have huge economies).
If you make an army that basically loses 20 supply in a relatively even endgame engage, you cant widdle it down slowly. And thats what your creating with the 15 range tempest.
Whats the counter to this going to be if it ends up rolling everything in a year?, 17 Range Siegeship for terran or zerg?
A much more stable soloution is to actually adress the issues a lot of people have with fungal, making this less nessasary. Maybe give broodlords a cooldown on the ability to spawn units (while keeping DPS).
Or just change the tempest to a ground unit, or a unit that deploys from the sky - onto the ground . Opening a ton of possibilities for strategies.
You cant have an air units counter be - swarm with light units - because there are no air units like that in the game that work.
(And dont tell me "muta" because then he will make 5 +2 Range phoenix and just laugh with storm)
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Since its so early, you can never say for sure, but as a zerg I've played against this composition numerous times and have never even come close to beating it. The new voidray ability that enables instant charge is sooo damn powerful that corrupters cannot make a dent in the army before vanishing, Hydras and mutas...forget about them. Add in tempest/carrier or collosus and it really does seem unbeatable (at least to me) at this point. I'm overly frustrated when it comes to playing against this that it makes me feel like it is 100% necessary to kill the toss before he can get his 2x stargate even starting production. Hope that a viable counter comes at some point.
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The real threat doesn't come from just how powerful the units are, the biggest threat comes from how by having MsC and a strong air harassment unit, it shortened any time gap to get to the well upgraded air units.
An air heavy deathball is the strongest deathball in all Matchups.
Terran has it's viking raven thor tank and BCs
Zerg has bl infestor corruptors queens
Protoss in Wol, had mothership archon toilet
It wasn't too surprising to see Protoss getting a strong air heavy deathball itself since the wol deathball is way weaker than the other two if vortex is not landed and it wasn't really an air focused deathball.
But the problem is the easy transition making air heavy possible means that it can reach the ultimate deathball much earlier.
It's almost like TvZ where the zerg do those 12 min hive rush build and it is upto terran to kill the zerg or cripple it so hard that it won't have any nice broodlord counts.
but one thing that is different, Protoss has harassment available as well as a MsC to deal with any timing push. In a TvZ way, it would be like Zerg having a way to get muta as well as broodlords at the same time.
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The problem is that voidrays are a hard counter to corrupters, Zerg's dedicated AA.
Given that Voidrays also double as harass, how phoenix shut down mutas, and how tempest / HT fry Hydralisks where they stand, there isn't a build that the Zerg has which can fight on equal (or remotely comparable) footing.
Protoss's defensive capabilities let it take three bases very early on, and once the 4th is secured the game effectively ends.
Skytoss needs to be effectively nerfed as a composition.
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On January 11 2013 11:55 ThomasHobbes wrote:
The problem is that voidrays are a hard counter to corrupters, Zerg's dedicated AA.
Given that Voidrays also double as harass, how phoenix shut down mutas, and how tempest / HT fry Hydralisks where they stand, there isn't a build that the Zerg has which can fight on equal (or remotely comparable) footing.
Protoss's defensive capabilities let it take three bases very early on, and once the 4th is secured the game effectively ends.
Skytoss needs to be effectively nerfed as a composition.
That or give Hydras maybe a buff in AA.
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On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now.
LOL there we go! Sing it out.
SING IT OUT!
Yeah it sounds extremely broken. But for those of you who are arguing that it's impossible resource wise, time is NOT a constraint. It is a BENEFIT. The Protoss can afford to draw the game out as MUCH as possible with millions of photon cannons everywhere, observers spread out to catch where you're going, etc. I think there's still problems with how to get there and aggressive Zergs will perform the best against the composition, but yes - it's the best deathball. Period.
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On January 11 2013 12:17 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now. LOL there we go! Sing it out. SING IT OUT! Yeah it sounds extremely broken. But for those of you who are arguing that it's impossible resource wise, time is NOT a constraint. It is a BENEFIT. The Protoss can afford to draw the game out as MUCH as possible with millions of photon cannons everywhere, observers spread out to catch where you're going, etc. I think there's still problems with how to get there and aggressive Zergs will perform the best against the composition, but yes - it's the best deathball. Period.
EXACTLY. This new air toss is completly broken in zvp at the moment. Cannons and tempest are TOO easy to sit on and defend forever while slowly taking bases and massing up mass carrier tempest voidray templar. It's literally a joke how easy protoss has become, why do they benefit from playing like down syndrome players? even in mid-high masters they never use chrono boost, have terrible engagements and literally do nothing the entire game. it's starting to feel like terran and protoss and just meant to turtle up and become unstoppable while zergs are just left to TRY and do some damage against them. not to mention the maps are so stupid in HotS that yo can put your army in between 2 of your bases and it pretty much lets you defend 4 FUCKING BASES, how is that fair? especially when tempest has 15 range?
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Thing is, for zerg in WoL, at least you have timings in which zerg is weak. Especially just before getting broods, a large PvZ timing is possible. In HotS, the toss can slowly and steadily build up their imba army while sitting behind cannons and their long range units (like the tempest). It's like if Zerg could start adding broods and infestors all game long, without having to 'survive' during a certain period (2 base all in / 3 base all in).
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Like insanely gas heavy units are cheap, right.
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Remove Battlecuiser energy so that we might see epic air battles at the very lategame pvt. ^^
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Ultra / queens / corruptor / infestor
Retreat while he activate the VR ability, then come back and heal the corruptors :D (ultras are here to clean all ground army quickly and even if you lose fight, if you are attacking they can destroy ennemy bases while void rays are killing your corruptor/hydra). Works pretty well. Ofc the infestors are here so he can't hit and run to defend his bases 
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On January 20 2013 23:04 Mahanaim wrote:
Like insanely gas heavy units are cheap, right.
Ah, like infestor-broodlord? You're right, nobody ever complained about those although they're expensive as hell.
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Templar Voidray Tempest, plays like a stronger version of Broodlord Infestor. The good thing is while Zerg has nothing to engange it. They have the means to go wild on expansion and be everywhere the composition is not. And as soon as this composition moves out you can start to bite of parts and finally stop it before it reaches you. I usually open Muta against this and transition depending on how they react to Mutas. Usually it is impossible for them to reach Voidray Tempest Templar and if they try it you have taken the whole map by then.
And then they have quiet a task in front of them with their deathball that cannot split. Usually I do alot of harassment against the toss. But if I wanna fight the deathball I wait till they enter creep and lock them with Fungal and if they clump it is over because of Fungal range 11 (HT movement speed towards you + travel time of the ball + natural range of the skill) vs feedback range 9.
If they don't clump, once locked down you can move in with spores and queens and force a fight yourself. I usually don't engange below 220 supply though.
Aside from that I love the, unless on creep, unbeatable deathball of the Protoss. Gives you alot of BW feeling as Zerg. Though it would be interesting if an actually combat unit would work against Airtoss. Hydra and Muta do really well if you know what you are doing, but they are quiet costly and not as easy to replace. And to wear down storm energy you need something like this. On the other hand Ling Roach can basically run into the composition and kill all the hts, but I guess you need to be ahead for that sort of resource wasting.
I personally consider spores combat units though, with their 400 hp and 1 armor they can easily run under air units and the 6 seconds burrow isn't that much of an issue, especially if you have Fungal.
It is a brandnew lategame situation for every side and they are not done tweaking this (HotS units will also see a phase of tweaking after they are fine with WoL units) So it will take a while to get used to it and figure it out. Especially if Zerg is in I got to end this fast mentality.
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I'm not bothered that deathballs exist, but the value to supply cost of Tempests do trouble me a little for the 200/200 engagements. Quick note: these are calculations as I don't have a HotS beta key yet, but...
In WoL people complain about brood lords. If you have an equal supply amount of Stalkers (not even equal cost) you can blink under unsupported brood lords and kill them. Running calculations on the stats of Tempests, I'm not sure stalkers can even do that (Stalkers and Tempests have about the same DPS against each other, but Tempests have about triple the HP of Stalkers; in a 2:1 ratio equal supply fight, that will be close).
By my calculations, an equal supply fight between vikings and Tempests will also be close. (Once again a 2:1 ratio. Tempests with almost 4x the HP, and a relevant amount of armor, against only slightly more DPS).
Stalkers and Vikings are units that logically should counter tempests in a maxed out situation, but...apparently it's a pretty even trade supply-wise. That is very scary for a brood lord esque unit. At least brood lords had clear counters, especially unsupported.
Granted yes, corruptors have an advantage because they deal bonus damage. But it's still not crushing or anything. (Corruptors and Tempests deal about the same DPS to each other. Just...Tempests only have 2.3x as much HP, which means in a 2v1, one corruptor should live with half HP or so). So like...that's one unit that kills completely unsupported tempests.
Speaking of corruptors, you know how they are specialists against air massive? Well...for the same cost as two corruptors, Tempests are better in every way against air massive targets (25 DPS instead of 21 DPS. 450 HP instead of 400 total HP split across two bodies. 15 range instead of 6). So...while Tempests lose the heads up fight with Corruptors, they still make Corruptors look like garbage.
But like...is that it? Are corruptors the only solo unit that gets a better-than-even trade with an equal supply group of Tempests? (Although granted, I guess Terran has PDDs; so both other races at least have answers).
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Tempests should be 6 supply like other capital ships, and Voids should lose extended leash range (they'll still be plenty strong without it). That alone would go a ways to giving opponents more micro options against Toss and reducing the power of the skytoss deathball.
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On January 04 2013 08:51 Avalain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 07:12 TheSambassador wrote:On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT. Void rays are significantly more costly (250/150 vs 150/100). One Void Ray SHOULD beat one corruptor. You should probably read that again. He's not complaining that void rays beat corruptors 1v1. He's complaining that void rays beat corruptors at an even resource cost. And yes, the reason for this is because they are trying to make it so that mutas beat void rays and corruptors beat phoenix. Another reason is that it's not good if corruptors can beat every other air unit.
let voidrays be turn into broodlords then i am as well ok with a nerv ... damn all this whine threads are annoying
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this whole late game mess could be solved by nerfing the mothership core's early game defensive abilities. it single handedly stops any kind of pressure you could hope for against someone playing greedy.
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On February 14 2013 11:49 metroid composite wrote:
I'm not bothered that deathballs exist, but the value to supply cost of Tempests do trouble me a little for the 200/200 engagements. Quick note: these are calculations as I don't have a HotS beta key yet, but...
In WoL people complain about brood lords. If you have an equal supply amount of Stalkers (not even equal cost) you can blink under unsupported brood lords and kill them. Running calculations on the stats of Tempests, I'm not sure stalkers can even do that (Stalkers and Tempests have about the same DPS against each other, but Tempests have about triple the HP of Stalkers; in a 2:1 ratio equal supply fight, that will be close).
By my calculations, an equal supply fight between vikings and Tempests will also be close. (Once again a 2:1 ratio. Tempests with almost 4x the HP, and a relevant amount of armor, against only slightly more DPS).
Stalkers and Vikings are units that logically should counter tempests in a maxed out situation, but...apparently it's a pretty even trade supply-wise. That is very scary for a brood lord esque unit. At least brood lords had clear counters, especially unsupported.
Granted yes, corruptors have an advantage because they deal bonus damage. But it's still not crushing or anything. (Corruptors and Tempests deal about the same DPS to each other. Just...Tempests only have 2.3x as much HP, which means in a 2v1, one corruptor should live with half HP or so). So like...that's one unit that kills completely unsupported tempests.
Speaking of corruptors, you know how they are specialists against air massive? Well...for the same cost as two corruptors, Tempests are better in every way against air massive targets (25 DPS instead of 21 DPS. 450 HP instead of 400 total HP split across two bodies. 15 range instead of 6). So...while Tempests lose the heads up fight with Corruptors, they still make Corruptors look like garbage.
But like...is that it? Are corruptors the only solo unit that gets a better-than-even trade with an equal supply group of Tempests? (Although granted, I guess Terran has PDDs; so both other races at least have answers).
Marines rape tempest. Hydras (assuming you can get to the tempest). Void rays rape them.
Not to mention - Cannons aren't stopping a 12min roach max.
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Ultra late game Protoss air is very strong. However, there are a lot of timings that protoss is vulnerable to while trying to achieve the airtoss army. I played a PvT about an hour ago and used the army the OP describes. Thor Viking does very well against it actually. It requires protoss to split every single engagement, however every time P moves, their units all clump up. I ended up winning eventually by attrition, but my army was Voidray/immortal/tempest/chargelot. If you'd like the replay I can upload it for you.
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Wait so your complaing about balance in a game that you haven't actually played yet?
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I've been going ling/bane/ultra against this skytoss thing because there really isn't any way too deal with the army, against terran you can build 100 spores and pull hes BC's in with vipers one by one, keep denying bases and wait for him to mine out but with the tempest this doesn't work at all. Ultras and lings are really good at killing buildings so it works really well. If you wait too long though and the death-ball builds up and they get storm there's just no way to kill them at all, if you try and base-race when they move out they usually just recall back.
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On January 04 2013 06:34 Existor wrote:
Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms.
I agree with this 100%, in WOL protoss was the one that had to commit to an engagement due to the range advantage of brood lords. Now that protoss has the temptest, Protoss has the range advantage and zerg is forced to commit with their anti air, usually corruptors, which unless split (corruptors tend to stack when focusing units) get dominated by storm.
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Protoss Air is just extremely hard to kill as Zerg. I can not seem to break it, not once have I even seem to come close. Not quite sure what I'm doing wrong, or if it's possible to beat, with HT. I've just started being very aggressive ZvX, not letting them get to where they want too.
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On January 04 2013 06:34 Existor wrote:
Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms.
Do you think Protoss air is just inherently imbalanced vsT and vsZ as it is or could the imbalance be adjusted by giving Zerg more cost efficient answers vs air? I was testing Scourge in the unit tester vsP and vsZ and think returning the unit to the Spire could be a good way of addressing the imbalance in the PvsZ end game and make Mutalisks less of the "go to" composition in ZvsZ.
Not sure what to do vs the Protoss air deathball as Terran, Vikings aren't enough it seems. But maybe they should look at removing the energy bar from Battle Cruisers, changing Yamato Cannon to a cool down ability and increasing the air to air damage to 8?
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I disagree that protoss air is overpowered.
1) HT cost a lot of gas, void rays cost gas, carriers cost a lot of gas, tempests cost a lot of gas. Storm costs a lot of gas. Air upgrades cost, you guessed it, a lot of of gas. Yet anytime before a good mixture of these units are up, terran can simply slaughter all this with mass marine because mass marine counters pretty much anything without AoE. Zerg can also do a roach hydra push and simply kill this, because while hydras are freaking terrible vs. carriers, they're really good vs void rays and tempests, and carriers take 2 minutes to build and you can't even start a carrier before the 10 minute mark without hurting your late game significantly.
2) Mass corruptor beats any combination of toss air unless you sit in storms for fun AND you don't land any good fungals. Carriers suck vs corruptor, the only answer toss has to corruptor is void ray. And void rays stack up like crazy and they can't dodge fungal easily even though it's a projectile = infestors are still really fucking good. And with vortex gone, you don't really ever have to worry about the dreaded archon toilet.
3) If protoss has a late game air army vs terran, terran can pretty much go BC+Raven+Ghost, and this becomes a micro battle (EMP vs. feedbacks like in bio, seeker missile which now costs only 75 energy vs splitting void rays which is actually much harder than marine split because flying units like to stack a lot more.
4) A lot of player based mistakes right now, even from pros, makes judging balance a lot harder in the beta. For example, one of the biggest mistakes (IMO) that zerg players make vs me late game when I go airtoss, is that they keep making hydras and stop making zerglings. Hydras, IMO, are nearly worthless vs the maxed airtoss army because while they are good vs the void rays, the moment I get 6+ carriers, your hydras are all wasting shots on interceptors unless you focus fire them on the voids one by one, which is going to be next to impossible. Plus, I have HT/achons likely in these armies which will absolutely annihilate the hydras. So the hydras are really dead weight. Really, you should be making a decent pack of zerglings to run around and harass my expansions, as my air army full of slow ass units will not want to move to go kill a zergling runby, so it's super annoying to deal with unless you have like 5 canons at each expo, and even then eventually you can work down the canons, or just ignore them and kill workers because 3/3 cracklings are amazing lategame.
5) If you apply heavy midgame pressure in the form of big roach/hydra pushes or big bio pushes, your tech is now too slow to get the necessary counter to a maxed protoss air army in time to stop it, so you have to do significant damage. Yet many players are stuck in the mindset of the old metagame of "make bio, then more bio, then more bio" or "if I get infestor BL, he can't kill it", the first of which does not work when your opponents' army is going to be almost exclusively tier 3 units, and the second of which just isn't true because mass airtoss vs. zerg is actually really really powerful unless you can exploit its weak points of mobility and clumping with either counterattacks or fungals. And zerg players seem to have some misconception now, that fungal either sucks or they just want to try new stuff so they're not massing infestors like they used to, when really it's still a really powerful caster.
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Tempest just have too much range in my opinion. There is no reason for them having 15 range. They could fill the same role while having a reasonable range like 10-12.
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Every race should have a gas intensive unstoppable army due to the supply limitation and entertainment factor.
Even chess has this mechanic.
When the pawn reaches the opponent's end of the board, the pawn may be upgraded to another chess piece, usually a queen.
Guess how IMBA is 2 queens on the board?
In other words, not only is chess about check mating the king, it is also preventing the opponent's pawns from reaching your side of the board.
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On February 15 2013 05:03 ProfessionalNoob wrote:
I disagree that protoss air is overpowered.
1) HT cost a lot of gas, void rays cost gas, carriers cost a lot of gas, tempests cost a lot of gas. Storm costs a lot of gas. Air upgrades cost, you guessed it, a lot of of gas. Yet anytime before a good mixture of these units are up, terran can simply slaughter all this with mass marine because mass marine counters pretty much anything without AoE. Zerg can also do a roach hydra push and simply kill this, because while hydras are freaking terrible vs. carriers, they're really good vs void rays and tempests, and carriers take 2 minutes to build and you can't even start a carrier before the 10 minute mark without hurting your late game significantly.
disclaimer: Since I play no HotS, I have no opinion on this matter whatsoever, the following lines are meant for a more general setting and can be applied to any race who might or might not have an "imba" lategame army.
The cost of the late game army is irrelevant. The only two things that count is:
a) How supply efficient it is
b) How easy it is to transition into it
Even if you have a lategame army which costs alot, it is incredibly imbalanced if other races have no means of defeating it, and if you can transition into it naturally and slowly, paying the price slice by slice.
Take for example mass Battlecruiser (possibly with Vikings or Ravens), or mass Carriers in WoL.
Both armies are hard (not impossible, but extremely hard if the player controlling the air army makes the right decisions) for other races to build, but they leave you wide open while you transition to it.
The Broodlord / Infestor is definitely easier to beat than the above two compositions, but the reason why it is more dominant in the matchups, is because it is easier for the Zergs to transition into it (though some terran and protoss still manage to hit nasty timings and catch the zerg off guard).
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I think they should take a look at the corruption spell. After the infestor nerfs it seems that both terran and protoss can get an air deathball that zerg just can't do much about. While the fast remaxing ability does compensate for a lot, its just sad when a maxed zerg army can't kill a single BC due to PDDs and seeker missiles everywhere.
Maybe make corruption a researchable ability at greater spire, but give it a lot more oomph. Copy the acid spores ability from devourers for example.
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On February 15 2013 20:27 Bagi wrote:
I think they should take a look at the corruption spell. After the infestor nerfs it seems that both terran and protoss can get an air deathball that zerg just can't do much about. While the fast remaxing ability does compensate for a lot, its just sad when a maxed zerg army can't kill a single BC due to PDDs and seeker missiles everywhere.
Maybe make corruption a researchable ability at greater spire, but give it a lot more oomph. Copy the acid spores ability from devourers for example.
I find your scenarios extremely naive and far fetched.
Any Terran or Protoss player who has tried straight 1 or 2 base teching to BCs or Carriers without any harass or mid game timing push has found themselves repeatedly stomped by any competent opponent, just ask White-ra or watch Husky's YouTube casts of him going straight to carriers in the early HotS betas.
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On February 15 2013 20:47 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 20:27 Bagi wrote:
I think they should take a look at the corruption spell. After the infestor nerfs it seems that both terran and protoss can get an air deathball that zerg just can't do much about. While the fast remaxing ability does compensate for a lot, its just sad when a maxed zerg army can't kill a single BC due to PDDs and seeker missiles everywhere.
Maybe make corruption a researchable ability at greater spire, but give it a lot more oomph. Copy the acid spores ability from devourers for example. I find your scenarios extremely naive and far fetched. Any Terran or Protoss player who has tried straight 1 or 2 base teching to BCs or Carriers without any harass or mid game timing push has found themselves repeatedly stomped by any competent opponent, just ask White-ra or watch Husky's YouTube casts of him going straight to carriers in the early HotS betas.
Who the hell said anything about 1-2 basing into mass air? Try split map on daybreak, transitioning from mech into viking/raven/BCs. It's a very viable transition and at a certain point it becomes nigh impossible for zerg to beat.
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On February 15 2013 19:55 Baum wrote:
Tempest just have too much range in my opinion. There is no reason for them having 15 range. They could fill the same role while having a reasonable range like 10-12.
Tempests also function as the Terran mech counter so they need their range. If Thors could shoot them down you'd never beat mech.
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On February 15 2013 21:10 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 19:55 Baum wrote:
Tempest just have too much range in my opinion. There is no reason for them having 15 range. They could fill the same role while having a reasonable range like 10-12. Tempests also function as the Terran mech counter so they need their range. If Thors could shoot them down you'd never beat mech.
All Tempests do have is range.
Their DPS is less than the DPS of one stimmed Marine against somnething other than massive air.
I don't want to pay that much money for a unit that can tank a little damage but does none.
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On February 15 2013 20:02 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Every race should have a gas intensive unstoppable army due to the supply limitation and entertainment factor.
Even chess has this mechanic.
When the pawn reaches the opponent's end of the board, the pawn may be upgraded to another chess piece, usually a queen.
Guess how IMBA is 2 queens on the board?
In other words, not only is chess about check mating the king, it is also preventing the opponent's pawns from reaching your side of the board.
The problem is how attainable this army composition is. In WOL Zerg was getting their gas intensive army every game. It was standard to tech to brood infestor in most games which made the game very stale. If it's standard for Protoss to go Sky toss in most PvZ games in Hots then we have the same situation that one race basically turtles to the late game while the other race is trying to find an opening to win before that happens. In Chess getting a pawn to the other side is a finishing move it happens in the end game it's something that you do when you already won the game. Your whole game plan doesn't revolve around getting that one pawn to the other side there is a lot of different strategical focus and interaction before that to even be possible. Every race should have the potential to go for a high tech late game army but that shouldn't mean that it hardcounters every mid game army that the other race can throw at it. It should still be exploitable and not unbeatable in direct engagements because if the best strategy is to just always go for your race's best late game composition or try to do some form of game ending push before that then the gameplay gets very dull and it's unfortunately what we witness in a lot of WOL games. High tech units should be more difficult to tech to and mid game interactions should be where games are decided.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I still like to blame the maps for sky deathballs being so powerful. The bases are so damn close together that you can't punish the slow mobility of a sky army.
If the maps were bigger and zerg against a sky player could take 3 corners of a map, then there's no way they'd lose unless they failed production. They could remax from different areas and just overwhelm it. On daybreak however there's nowhere where you can even outmanouver a sky deathball army and you can't punish it by mass expanding it as all the bases are so damn close.
Cloud Kingdom, Akilon Wastes and the majority of the maps in the pool have the same issue. There's far too many really narrow 2 player maps and not enough wide open spaces, spread based 4 player maps.
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On February 15 2013 21:19 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:10 Xequecal wrote:On February 15 2013 19:55 Baum wrote:
Tempest just have too much range in my opinion. There is no reason for them having 15 range. They could fill the same role while having a reasonable range like 10-12. Tempests also function as the Terran mech counter so they need their range. If Thors could shoot them down you'd never beat mech. All Tempests do have is range. Their DPS is less than the DPS of one stimmed Marine against somnething other than massive air. I don't want to pay that much money for a unit that can tank a little damage but does none.
If they have 12 range they still outrange thors and vikings which are their main counters. With the right support I am pretty sure even 10 range Tempest would be good enough to dismantle a meching player. But 15 range is just way too much there is no reason for Tempests to have that much range. It's just like the collosus a unit that needs little attention but forces a lot of attention from your opponent.
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On February 15 2013 21:19 rEalGuapo wrote:
All Tempests do have is range.
Their DPS is less than the DPS of one stimmed Marine against somnething other than massive air.
I don't want to pay that much money for a unit that can tank a little damage but does none.
Enjoy getting shit-stomped by mech Terran, then. You can't break through Hellbats on the ground with any kind of support, period. Since 4 Vikings can kite any number of Void Rays to death and Thors can vaporize all your interceptors in seconds with splash, Carriers are also out. You need Tempests. Mech is very very slow and immobile, they can't take advantage of the low DPS, you just grind them down.
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The biggest thing that I have seen from the Airtoss army is not just that it is so difficult to trade with effiiciently in the lategame, but in the midgame and early game, if you go for a stargate opening, it is completely viable to open stargate against T and Z and then its not a transition, but just a gameplan from the start, with as others have said just fizzling out the tier 1 gateway units.
Timewarp
But added to this, from a Terran perspective, Mech is absolutely laughable against this lategame, as its so slow, with Timewarp added to this it just becomes silly. I have countless games where I just get caught and then it's gg, i can't move into range with anything to hit the tempests or voids and then they can both just move in and win.
But versus Bio its even more insane, you can't dodge the timewarp anywhere near aswell as other cast abilities such as storm, as its range so is so huge, and even if it catches a small portion, that small portion will die ti templar, storm just kills it then.
Having a portion of your army just disappear is irritating to say the least, also the worst of it is when you have to try and engage the toss armies in the midgame, you can't run in and (stim for the win) at the ramp as they just timewarp and kill your shit.
I can't wait to see a high level toss execute this style, say in the GSL, and highlight to Blizzard how fucking broken it is.
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Terran bio flat out annihilates airtoss. Airtoss is the counter to mech, mech shouldn't get a counter to it, period.
Airtoss is kind of problematic against Zerg I admit but with how slow it is to get out you can still pump out 30 infestors and fungal all the interceptors and void rays to death. Tempests can't snipe burrowed units from 15 range either. Just play it like WoL TvP with burrowed infestors replacing cloaked Ghosts. Just keep turtling and backing off and sniping obvservers until you get an opening for one good fungal that wins the game on the spot. It works exactly like WoL TvP, turtle for 20 minutes until he fucks up a templar split and gets them EMPed, then steamroll over him and kill all his mining bases before any new templar have energy.
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On February 15 2013 21:44 Xequecal wrote:
Terran bio flat out annihilates airtoss. Airtoss is the counter to mech, mech shouldn't get a counter to it, period.
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work.
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On February 15 2013 21:44 Xequecal wrote:
Terran bio flat out annihilates airtoss. Airtoss is the counter to mech, mech shouldn't get a counter to it, period.
Airtoss is kind of problematic against Zerg I admit but with how slow it is to get out you can still pump out 30 infestors and fungal all the interceptors and void rays to death. Tempests can't snipe burrowed units from 15 range either. Just play it like WoL TvP with burrowed infestors replacing cloaked Ghosts. Just keep turtling and backing off and sniping obvservers until you get an opening for one good fungal that wins the game on the spot. It works exactly like WoL TvP, turtle for 20 minutes until he fucks up a templar split and gets them EMPed, then steamroll over him and kill all his mining bases before any new templar have energy.
What's the point of going mech when you can't fight a Protoss air army at all?
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On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work.
It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures.
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On February 15 2013 21:50 Baum wrote:
What's the point of going mech when you can't fight a Protoss air army at all?
Due to the fact that Hellbats lol all over all Protoss ground units at an absolutely absurd cost effectiveness, if Mech even got a mediocre air counter there'd be no beating it. You could go pure ground against a Terran that completely failed to scout it and went mass anti-air and the Hellbats would still completely slaughter everything. There's NOTHING Protoss has that can even touch them that's not air. Zealots melt, Stalkers and Immortals have no DPS, Colossi are outranged by Thors and Tanks and also have no DPS due to the large size of the Hellbat. (they can only hit 2 Hellbats at once with the linear splash) The large size and long range of mech units also makes HTs ineffective. Archons do have bonus to bio but at 300 gas they're still not effective at all against 100 mineral hellbats.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 15 2013 21:52 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures.
It's much, much, much harder. We don't have chronoboost .
Archons do have bonus to bio but at 300 gas they're still not effective at all against 100 mineral hellbats.
Have you even played the game? Archons destroy hellbats.
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On February 15 2013 21:52 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures.
No its not comparable, air units are generally complimentary and if you add stargate tech to robo tech, you still have gateway/robo units as the "meat" of your army. Starport units as terran are similar, but protoss (or zerg for that matter) don't have a divide comparable to bio vs mech.
If you still disagree, please correct me by showing me a couple of competitive games where terran starts off with mech but switches to bio. Thanks.
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On February 15 2013 21:52 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures.
Robo units and stargate units both are produced from a limited amount of infrastructure. For bio to be effective in the late game you have to have 6-8 barracks and a starport while before you were building mech units from 5 or more factories. So no a tech switch like this is not the same.
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They cost THREE HUNDRED GAS. You can kill 5 hellbats per archon lost and you're still trading badly.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 15 2013 22:00 Xequecal wrote:
They cost THREE HUNDRED GAS. You can kill 5 hellbats per archon lost and you're still trading badly.
Against mech you can get so many gas bases that that doesn't really matter does it?
Mech is supposed to be cost efficient. It takes so damn long to build, It's slow enough that you can't really punish mass expanding without getting destroyed and if you get caught out of position you just die. if it got beaten by every toss army like it did in WoL then nobody would ever play it.
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On February 15 2013 21:59 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:52 Xequecal wrote:On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures. Robo units and stargate units both are produced from a limited amount of infrastructure. For bio to be effective in the late game you have to have 6-8 barracks and a starport while before you were building mech units from 5 or more factories. So no a tech switch like this is not the same.
Yes, but having both Robo and Stargate units requires a number of tech buildings and functionality upgrades that Terran doesn't. The Armory doesn't count since you need it for both bio and mech. Mech in fact has no such upgrades required at all since blue flame was taken off Hellbats and siege tech was removed. To switch from Stargate to Robo Protoss has to build say 2 Robos, make a Robotics Support Bay, and research Colossus range, which is the same price as six Factories.
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You are comparing two very different things. You are supposed to get air upgrades while playing bio and while playing mech if you switch between the two you have to also get ground mech upgrades or ground bio upgrades. There is no realistic scenario in which you start building marines to counter Protoss air in the lategame after you started with mech. Just because siege and blueflame are gone doesn't mean you suddenly can start doing that. Robo units are used as support for gateway units while mech and bio usually are compositions on their own. I am not sure why you keep insisting on your point when there is no actual evidence of it happening at all.
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On February 15 2013 22:07 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:59 Baum wrote:On February 15 2013 21:52 Xequecal wrote:On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures. Robo units and stargate units both are produced from a limited amount of infrastructure. For bio to be effective in the late game you have to have 6-8 barracks and a starport while before you were building mech units from 5 or more factories. So no a tech switch like this is not the same. Yes, but having both Robo and Stargate units requires a number of tech buildings and functionality upgrades that Terran doesn't. The Armory doesn't count since you need it for both bio and mech. Mech in fact has no such upgrades required at all since blue flame was taken off Hellbats and siege tech was removed. To switch from Stargate to Robo Protoss has to build say 2 Robos, make a Robotics Support Bay, and research Colossus range, which is the same price as six Factories.
Your lack of experience is showing.
Not only are they gross generalizations, but mistaken ones coming from poor play.
Why not learn how to play before commenting?
Can you even do a 7:30min marine/medivac drop timing attack into tank +mass marine mid-game push?
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I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it.
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On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it.
Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine storms with time warps and watch as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals and zealots.
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On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals.
Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting.
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While on paper this seems like an incredibly OP composition, we should wait for more games at the highest level before making any conclusions, at least until GSTL starts tomorrow and more MLG matches. The main question we need to ask as we watch these games is, "can the composition be feasibly achieved?"
If the answer to that question is clearly "yes" then we can began to theory craft solutions.
Personally I'd suggest either making the tempest a ground unit like OP said or severely reducing its range while increasing its vs air dps
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I agree. The Tempest will likely need some kind of nerf.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 16 2013 03:04 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals. Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting.
The more and more you post, the less and less likely it seems you've actually played the game. Collosus can hit hellbats who are too far forward without being hit by tanks, completely for free. They also hit way more than 2 of them unless they're spread.
What you've said about storm also is completely wrong, well placed storms against hellbats will hit atleast 6 from my experience. Also stalkers and Immortals do low damage to hellbats, but guess what. They both have higher range and can kite hellbats if you bait them away from the tanks.
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It's not broken. Also hard to get for P to get this complete compo if you attack frequently. Swarm host is a good unit. Making those forces protoss to warp any units they can make. Killing half of the Air toss in an engagement is good already when Zerg can remax in no time, but replacing those VR's ,Tempests lost . Goodluck on that.
If P had managed to get this complete compo (PvZ), maybe Protoss deserved the win lol.
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My biggest gripe with Protoss isn't the deathball itself but the mothership core. A bunch of slow moving Void Rays, Tempests, HTs, and Tempests on a big map? No problem time to do multi pronged drops/attacks and snipe tech stru-oh SNAP recall!
Also thanks to the mothership core, I've yet to find a timing before 9 minutes that allows Zerg to break Protoss FFE due to Nexus Cannon.
Make Protoss more vulnerable and force them to play safer in the early mid game, and the air deathball won't be a huge problem like it is. I honestly have no problem with the deathball being near unstoppable against Zerg but at least make it so Zerg can actually pressure Protoss reliably in the early mid game because Nexus Cannon is straight bullshit early game.
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On February 15 2013 21:57 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:52 Xequecal wrote:On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures. It's much, much, much harder. We don't have chronoboost . Show nested quote +Archons do have bonus to bio but at 300 gas they're still not effective at all against 100 mineral hellbats. Have you even played the game? Archons destroy hellbats.
Gonna throw it out there. Blizz nerfed the shit out of chrono so that we get things at a decent time... not an especially quick one
This complaint seems silly considering how much gas it requires and how Toss map control works.
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I don't see how well micro'd, Marine Heavy MMMVG can't beat Tempest/Void/Carrier/Templar with a 2-2 timing, or even just constant attacks after maxing over and over.
The lack of AoE besides psi storms really hurts the Protoss' ability to deny the Ghosts from getting all the EMP's they need on the Templar, plus the Bio doesn't need to spread or kite aside from making a concave unless some Templar get some good psi storms off on the Bio, which is very difficult with scans, snipes, and EMP's.
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On February 16 2013 08:10 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 03:04 Xequecal wrote:On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals. Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting. The more and more you post, the less and less likely it seems you've actually played the game. Collosus can hit hellbats who are too far forward without being hit by tanks, completely for free. They also hit way more than 2 of them unless they're spread. What you've said about storm also is completely wrong, well placed storms against hellbats will hit atleast 6 from my experience. Also stalkers and Immortals do low damage to hellbats, but guess what. They both have higher range and can kite hellbats if you bait them away from the tanks.
It's funny how u say others have not played the game while u didnt play it yourself.
Mass siege tank + hellbat can be actually a-moved vs any kind of toss ground army. Before stalkers or even mighty immortals kill anything, any moderately good terran will have withdrawn his hellbats back to tanks.
And seriously, if u're so fucking good, please post your replays and make your arguments worth a penny. You know, it's easy to call somebody stupid, especially when you're stupid yourself.
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On January 04 2013 07:11 TheSambassador wrote:
This is 100% theorycraft, would likely require a huge amount of good control from the Protoss player, and is one of the most gas-consuming compositions that anybody has ever thought of.
You're worrying about something that hasn't even been attempted yet. You have no replays, and just think that this is potentially broken. This is a silly thread.
Zerg can get into Infestor Broodlord because of their production mechanic. They can build 10 corruptors as they start their Greater Spire, and then can morph them all to broodlords when it's done. They can make 6+ infestors at a time to assist their Brood Lords.
If you're "transitioning" into this composition as Protoss, you're going to need at LEAST 3 Stargates (450 gas), and a TON of time. There is no way to create this army quickly enough, EVEN if you have the resources of a 4-base protoss.
Out of all the things to worry about, this composition seems like a really silly one.
Did you not see parting vs b4 in GSL, and thats without tempest,
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On February 16 2013 11:05 Tommyth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 08:10 Qikz wrote:On February 16 2013 03:04 Xequecal wrote:On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals. Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting. The more and more you post, the less and less likely it seems you've actually played the game. Collosus can hit hellbats who are too far forward without being hit by tanks, completely for free. They also hit way more than 2 of them unless they're spread. What you've said about storm also is completely wrong, well placed storms against hellbats will hit atleast 6 from my experience. Also stalkers and Immortals do low damage to hellbats, but guess what. They both have higher range and can kite hellbats if you bait them away from the tanks. It's funny how u say others have not played the game while u didnt play it yourself. Mass siege tank + hellbat can be actually a-moved vs any kind of toss ground army. Before stalkers or even mighty immortals kill anything, any moderately good terran will have withdrawn his hellbats back to tanks. And seriously, if u're so fucking good, please post your replays and make your arguments worth a penny. You know, it's easy to call somebody stupid, especially when you're stupid yourself.
Sorry, but how can a siege tank based army be a moved when it needs to siege first. The points made by the person you quoted make much more sense than what you just wrote. The immobility can be abused and that's how you whittle down a mech army.
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On February 16 2013 03:04 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals. Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting.
Right, so timewarp is irrelevant against hellbats, a melee unit that supposedly kills your entire ground composition. Well, got nothing to say about that.
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Obviously it's going to be insanely hard to get this kind of composition due to the gas cost, but if they do, like many are saying, I can't really think of any other composition that would kill it.
As Terran, I guess I would try to nuke it? :/
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
Have you even played the game? Archons destroy hellbats.
Archons cost 100/300. Even if you give gas a 1:1 value ratio with minerals - which is not possible, 3 workers on gas mine 12-16 in the time it takes to get 20-25 minerals, you are talking 3 archons vs 12 hellbats.. A pretty tricky fight.
If you give gas 2:1 value ratio of minerals, you are talking 5 archons vs 35 hellbats.
Useless theorycrafting, but its funny to me.
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On February 16 2013 14:38 Cyro wrote:Archons cost 100/300. Even if you give gas a 1:1 value ratio with minerals - which is not possible, 3 workers on gas mine 12-16 in the time it takes to get 20-25 minerals, you are talking 3 archons vs 12 hellbats.. A pretty tricky fight. If you give gas 2:1 value ratio of minerals, you are talking 5 archons vs 35 hellbats. Useless theorycrafting, but its funny to me.
DT route are a viable unit to build Archons with 250/250.
They are also quicker to produce as the reduced the build time of the dark shrine.
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On February 16 2013 15:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 14:38 Cyro wrote: Have you even played the game? Archons destroy hellbats. Archons cost 100/300. Even if you give gas a 1:1 value ratio with minerals - which is not possible, 3 workers on gas mine 12-16 in the time it takes to get 20-25 minerals, you are talking 3 archons vs 12 hellbats.. A pretty tricky fight. If you give gas 2:1 value ratio of minerals, you are talking 5 archons vs 35 hellbats. Useless theorycrafting, but its funny to me. DT route are a viable unit to build Archons with 250/250. They are also quicker to produce as the reduced the build time of the dark shrine.
They reduced the cost, not the build time. Are you crazy?
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On February 16 2013 15:42 ant-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 15:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 16 2013 14:38 Cyro wrote: Have you even played the game? Archons destroy hellbats. Archons cost 100/300. Even if you give gas a 1:1 value ratio with minerals - which is not possible, 3 workers on gas mine 12-16 in the time it takes to get 20-25 minerals, you are talking 3 archons vs 12 hellbats.. A pretty tricky fight. If you give gas 2:1 value ratio of minerals, you are talking 5 archons vs 35 hellbats. Useless theorycrafting, but its funny to me. DT route are a viable unit to build Archons with 250/250. They are also quicker to produce as the reduced the build time of the dark shrine. They reduced the cost, not the build time. Are you crazy?
A bit far to call me crazy over that...
Any case the gas savings on the Dark shrine DOES result in a quicker archon, if not from the Darkshrine's build time.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 16 2013 11:05 Tommyth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 08:10 Qikz wrote:On February 16 2013 03:04 Xequecal wrote:On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals. Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting. The more and more you post, the less and less likely it seems you've actually played the game. Collosus can hit hellbats who are too far forward without being hit by tanks, completely for free. They also hit way more than 2 of them unless they're spread. What you've said about storm also is completely wrong, well placed storms against hellbats will hit atleast 6 from my experience. Also stalkers and Immortals do low damage to hellbats, but guess what. They both have higher range and can kite hellbats if you bait them away from the tanks. It's funny how u say others have not played the game while u didnt play it yourself. Mass siege tank + hellbat can be actually a-moved vs any kind of toss ground army. Before stalkers or even mighty immortals kill anything, any moderately good terran will have withdrawn his hellbats back to tanks. And seriously, if u're so fucking good, please post your replays and make your arguments worth a penny. You know, it's easy to call somebody stupid, especially when you're stupid yourself.
Over the past 3 weeks I've been playing 10+ games a day, I go mech every single game and I'm diamond level. I'm not even calling him stupid, I'm saying his wrong, which he is. I've had my stuff stormed, I've had my zealots kited back if I don't pull them back quick enough or they're already engaged in a fight and I've had archon/immortal destroy my army if I have no EMP.
Of course hellbats will be pulled back, that's the point of them. A terran mech army should be hard to engage, it's supposed to be a strong army and if you flank from different angles you'll have a much better time.
The gas cost of stuff against mech is irrelavent considering how expensive tanks are and also the fact toss can mass expand to gas bases (especially later game) as Mech isn't fast enough to go punish an expo with cannons.
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On February 16 2013 19:03 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 11:05 Tommyth wrote:On February 16 2013 08:10 Qikz wrote:On February 16 2013 03:04 Xequecal wrote:On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals. Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting. The more and more you post, the less and less likely it seems you've actually played the game. Collosus can hit hellbats who are too far forward without being hit by tanks, completely for free. They also hit way more than 2 of them unless they're spread. What you've said about storm also is completely wrong, well placed storms against hellbats will hit atleast 6 from my experience. Also stalkers and Immortals do low damage to hellbats, but guess what. They both have higher range and can kite hellbats if you bait them away from the tanks. It's funny how u say others have not played the game while u didnt play it yourself. Mass siege tank + hellbat can be actually a-moved vs any kind of toss ground army. Before stalkers or even mighty immortals kill anything, any moderately good terran will have withdrawn his hellbats back to tanks. And seriously, if u're so fucking good, please post your replays and make your arguments worth a penny. You know, it's easy to call somebody stupid, especially when you're stupid yourself. Over the past 3 weeks I've been playing 10+ games a day, I go mech every single game and I'm diamond level. I'm not even calling him stupid, I'm saying his wrong, which he is. I've had my stuff stormed, I've had my zealots kited back if I don't pull them back quick enough or they're already engaged in a fight and I've had archon/immortal destroy my army if I have no EMP. Of course hellbats will be pulled back, that's the point of them. A terran mech army should be hard to engage, it's supposed to be a strong army and if you flank from different angles you'll have a much better time. The gas cost of stuff against mech is irrelavent considering how expensive tanks are and also the fact toss can mass expand to gas bases (especially later game) as Mech isn't fast enough to go punish an expo with cannons.
The more I read from you and Hattori_Hanzo the more I am convinced that you should leave this discussion as you don't seem to have anything of value to add. Want to see the way you argue? Here, I'll show you:
Archons destroy Hellbats, right?
On February 15 2013 21:57 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +Archons do have bonus to bio but at 300 gas they're still not effective at all against 100 mineral hellbats. Have you even played the game? Archons destroy hellbats.
Someone points out that the cost ratio of Archons(HT) versus Hellbats is 7:1 and that 1 archon won't beat 7 hellbats.
On February 16 2013 15:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
DT route are a viable unit to build Archons with 250/250.
They are also quicker to produce as the reduced the build time of the dark shrine.
To which then someone objects that the dark shrine has reduced cost, not reduced build time. Oh, and DT Archons have an even worse cost ratio against hellbats with 7.5:1 when you count gas twice as valuable.
On February 16 2013 16:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
A bit far to call me crazy over that...
Any case the gas savings on the Dark shrine DOES result in a quicker archon, if not from the Darkshrine's build time.
Just admit that you were wrong, please.
Hellbat Micro Time!
On February 16 2013 08:10 Qikz wrote:
Collosus can hit hellbats who are too far forward without being hit by tanks, completely for free.
Also stalkers and Immortals do low damage to hellbats, but guess what. They both have higher range and can kite hellbats if you bait them away from the tanks.
Someone responds by saying that any decent player would keep his Hellbats back and not let the enemy kite them.
On February 16 2013 19:03 Qikz wrote:
Of course hellbats will be pulled back, that's the point of them. A terran mech army should be hard to engage, it's supposed to be a strong army[...]
That's kind... schizophrenic, don't you think? At first you say that you can kite them EASY and that's how one should handle them. Once someone points out that a good player will just leave the hellbats at their tanks you proceed to state that OF COURSE you should not be able to kite them. That just doesn't make sense to me, sorry.
And I'd like to add just a few things to the discussion directly regarding what you said:
The gas cost of stuff against mech is irrelavent considering how expensive tanks are and also the fact toss can mass expand to gas bases (especially later game) as Mech isn't fast enough to go punish an expo with cannons.
Gas is the bread and butter of protoss. It does matter considering that it's incredibly hard to gain proper map control in order to mass expand against terran. If anything I have seen it the other way around.
And I'd like to object about mech having a hard time punishing mass expanding. 8 Hellions with blueflame upgrade will annihilate any probes at a protoss expansion with a decent amount of cannons. 8 Zealots on the other hand won't really do that great against a planetary fortress. You see, when you go mech you already have those hellions and factories with tech lab. This is not WoL, in this expansion there is a use for hellions in an actual fight.
And regarding tech switches:
Can you even do a 7:30min marine/medivac drop timing attack into tank +mass marine mid-game push?
That really depends on what you define as "mid game". I just assume that you want to compare protoss and terran tech paths and want to show that terran has a harder time doing that.
That example is actually really poorly picked. Depending on what you define as "mid game" you can actually do just that. You already have a tech lab on one of the barracks, you already have a factory and you don't have to research siege tech anymore. You see, a protoss can't do a voidray/gateway bust into colossi push during the mid game while upgrading both ground and air.
The reason why we haven't seen doing terrans tech switches is because in WoL you only needed either mech or bio. HotS on the other hand is still in it's infancy and we might just see that over the course of the next months or years.
Both races pay dear money to make a tech switch, transitioning from stargate into colossi into high templar actually takes much much longer for a protoss player.
You two guys, I wouldn't have minded for you having your opinion and experiences if you would treat other writers in this thread with respect despite them not sharing your attitude. Just look at it!
On February 15 2013 21:57 Qikz wrote:
Have you even played the game?
On February 16 2013 00:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Your lack of experience is showing.
On February 16 2013 00:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
[...]mistaken ones coming from poor play.
On February 16 2013 00:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Why not learn how to play before commenting?
On February 16 2013 08:10 Qikz wrote:
The more and more you post, the less and less likely it seems you've actually played the game. .
On February 16 2013 19:03 Qikz wrote:
[...]I'm saying his wrong, which he is.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I didn't mean to try and disrespect him, but I honestly felt that with his opinions, which I agree he has every right to have, completely contradicts any experiences I've actually had playing the game. That's the only reason why I felt the need to come out and say that I honestly felt he hadn't play the game.
Maybe my experiences are different to other players, but I've played plenty of sample games since the beginning of the beta with mech and from my own personal play and also speaking to other terrans/toss that I practice with in game I felt that he was kindly mistaken and I wanted to try and explain why. My apologies to you Xequecal, hopefully you can forgive my brash nature in my posts in this thread.
I honestly think hidden among my brash posting that there is a lot of truth to what I'm saying. Yes, hellbats will be kept behind the tanks, but if you engage, you can pull away and the hellbats won't catch up with you. If they're in front of the tanks collosus can poke at them and also if they over extend with them they are perfectly kitable by stalkers/immortals. Although personally I think Stalkers shouldn't be used in a composition against tank/hellbat as I've personally found them to just die extremely quickly to tank volleys when protoss players engage me.
Also to counter your point about hellions annihilating probes, the majority of protoss players I've been playing use pylon walls to block off entrances to their expansions and doing a damn good job of making it hard for me to ever hurass later in the game. Another thing that I've personally experienced is as mech is so weak early on (especially tank/hellbat at low tank numbers), it's really hard for the protoss player not to have map control enough to be able to expand all over the place. I guess this depends on the map however.
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On February 16 2013 21:42 Nezgar wrote:
To which then someone objects that the dark shrine has reduced cost, not reduced build time. Oh, and DT Archons have an even worse cost ratio against hellbats with 7.5:1 when you count gas twice as valuable.
So two 125m 125g invisible unit unlocked by a 150m 150g tech structure to produce an Archon is more inefficient and slower than two 100m 150g spellcaster unit unlocked by a 100m 200g tech structure?
Let's do the math for the first Archon:
+ Show Spoiler +Dark Templar x2
125m 125g x2 = 250m 250g
+ Dark Shrine
150m 150g = 400m 400g
vs.
High Templar
50m 150g x2 = 100m 300g
+ Templar Archive
150m 200g = 250m 500g
I admit I am wrong on the build time, and yes, DTs will take twice as long to appear than HTs.
Since gas is such a precious asset, once the structures kicks in, using 1500 gas as standard,
+ Show Spoiler +Dark Templar x2
125m 125g x2 = 250m 250g
1500m & 1500g ÷ 250m & 250g = 6
vs.
High Templar
50m 150g x2 = 100m 300g
1500m & 1500g ÷ 100m & 300g = 5
Remainder: 1000 minerals
You would have 6 available archons whereas the HT route would only have made 5 in time for a hellbat/medivac/siegetank push. Yes, there's a remainder of 1000 minerals in the HT route, good for 10 more zealots, we all agree, they would not even dent the mech ball with decent numbers of hellbats.
Please recheck your math.
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On February 16 2013 22:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 21:42 Nezgar wrote:
To which then someone objects that the dark shrine has reduced cost, not reduced build time. Oh, and DT Archons have an even worse cost ratio against hellbats with 7.5:1 when you count gas twice as valuable.
So two 125m 125g invisible unit unlocked by a 150m 150g tech structure to produce an Archon is more inefficient and slower than two 100m 150g spellcaster unit unlocked by a 100m 200g tech structure? Let's do the math for the first Archon: + Show Spoiler +Dark Templar x2
125m 125g x2 = 250m 250g
+ Dark Shrine
150m 150g = 400m 400g
vs.
High Templar
100m 150g x2 = 200m 300g
+ Templar Archive
150m 200g = 350m 500g
I admit I am wrong on the build time, and yes, DTs will take twice as long to appear than HTs. Since gas is such a precious asset, once the structures kicks in, using 3000 gas a standard, You would have 12 available archons whereas the HT route would only have made 10 in time for a hellbat/medivac/siegetank push. Please recheck your math.
templars are 50/150... sry bro.
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On February 16 2013 22:17 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 22:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 16 2013 21:42 Nezgar wrote:
To which then someone objects that the dark shrine has reduced cost, not reduced build time. Oh, and DT Archons have an even worse cost ratio against hellbats with 7.5:1 when you count gas twice as valuable.
So two 125m 125g invisible unit unlocked by a 150m 150g tech structure to produce an Archon is more inefficient and slower than two 100m 150g spellcaster unit unlocked by a 100m 200g tech structure? Let's do the math for the first Archon: + Show Spoiler +Dark Templar x2
125m 125g x2 = 250m 250g
+ Dark Shrine
150m 150g = 400m 400g
vs.
High Templar
100m 150g x2 = 200m 300g
+ Templar Archive
150m 200g = 350m 500g
I admit I am wrong on the build time, and yes, DTs will take twice as long to appear than HTs. Since gas is such a precious asset, once the structures kicks in, using 3000 gas a standard, You would have 12 available archons whereas the HT route would only have made 10 in time for a hellbat/medivac/siegetank push. Please recheck your math. templars are 50/150... sry bro.
Thanks, I corrected the earlier thread. Zealots are not very good against well-spread hellbats in sufficient numbers.
Also, this thread has gotten extremely derailed.
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I still think the ultimate deathball is mass ravens and the HotS raven supply should be 3.... I can't wait for people to discover a safe way to go mass raven, the QQ is going to be amazing.
Anyway, templar voidray tempest is overhyped, I almost never see it in my laddering or pro streams, that should not be the case if it were "that good", for example, like Blood/infestor in WoL where you see it in.... every match that goes past early game.
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On February 16 2013 22:21 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 22:17 rpgalon wrote:On February 16 2013 22:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 16 2013 21:42 Nezgar wrote:
To which then someone objects that the dark shrine has reduced cost, not reduced build time. Oh, and DT Archons have an even worse cost ratio against hellbats with 7.5:1 when you count gas twice as valuable.
So two 125m 125g invisible unit unlocked by a 150m 150g tech structure to produce an Archon is more inefficient and slower than two 100m 150g spellcaster unit unlocked by a 100m 200g tech structure? Let's do the math for the first Archon: + Show Spoiler +Dark Templar x2
125m 125g x2 = 250m 250g
+ Dark Shrine
150m 150g = 400m 400g
vs.
High Templar
100m 150g x2 = 200m 300g
+ Templar Archive
150m 200g = 350m 500g
I admit I am wrong on the build time, and yes, DTs will take twice as long to appear than HTs. Since gas is such a precious asset, once the structures kicks in, using 3000 gas a standard, You would have 12 available archons whereas the HT route would only have made 10 in time for a hellbat/medivac/siegetank push. Please recheck your math. templars are 50/150... sry bro. Thanks, I corrected the earlier thread. Zealots are not very good against well-spread hellbats in sufficient numbers. Also, this thread has gotten extremely derailed.
Not to add to the discussion but to point something out. Zealots are better against well-spread hellbats, because being spread means that the (charge) zealots can cover more area. If the hellbats are clumbed together then they will exploit the melee range weakness. Zealots will fight for space and trip out while the hellbats with the range of 2 can hit both the front and the back zealots.
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On February 16 2013 22:54 Stingart wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 22:21 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 16 2013 22:17 rpgalon wrote:On February 16 2013 22:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 16 2013 21:42 Nezgar wrote:
To which then someone objects that the dark shrine has reduced cost, not reduced build time. Oh, and DT Archons have an even worse cost ratio against hellbats with 7.5:1 when you count gas twice as valuable.
So two 125m 125g invisible unit unlocked by a 150m 150g tech structure to produce an Archon is more inefficient and slower than two 100m 150g spellcaster unit unlocked by a 100m 200g tech structure? Let's do the math for the first Archon: + Show Spoiler +Dark Templar x2
125m 125g x2 = 250m 250g
+ Dark Shrine
150m 150g = 400m 400g
vs.
High Templar
100m 150g x2 = 200m 300g
+ Templar Archive
150m 200g = 350m 500g
I admit I am wrong on the build time, and yes, DTs will take twice as long to appear than HTs. Since gas is such a precious asset, once the structures kicks in, using 3000 gas a standard, You would have 12 available archons whereas the HT route would only have made 10 in time for a hellbat/medivac/siegetank push. Please recheck your math. templars are 50/150... sry bro. Thanks, I corrected the earlier thread. Zealots are not very good against well-spread hellbats in sufficient numbers. Also, this thread has gotten extremely derailed. Not to add to the discussion but to point something out. Zealots are better against well-spread hellbats, because being spread means that the (charge) zealots can cover more area. If the hellbats are clumbed together then they will exploit the melee range weakness. Zealots will fight for space and trip out while the hellbats with the range of 2 can hit both the front and the back zealots.
I have to point this out, the standard definition of well-spread does not always mean single file board-side fire, well-spread means an optimized formation against any particular unit.
In this case, a well-spread hellbat formation is two ranks deep to optimize their range of 2.
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I have to point this out, the standard definition of well-spread does not always mean single file board-side fire, well-spread means an optimized formation against any particular unit.
Except it is very rare that you will be fighting just one kind of unit, and units may have roles beyond maximizing their individual survival. The unit positioning that may help against zealots may be awful against colossi--or your positioning may be "optimal" from the perspective of minimizing dps taken by your units in a certain engagement, but if doing that requires you move out of position in a way that, say, lets them bypass your Hellions and get to tanks, then it can easily become suboptimal.
Given the complexities of actual battles vs theorycraft, "well spread" as you propose it is virtually meaningless except as a synonym for "good overall positioning." If thats what you mean, just say that. I think most people will take "well spread" to mean, basically, just that. Not some nebulous "any optimal positioning is a good spread" idea.
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On February 16 2013 21:51 Qikz wrote:
I didn't mean to try and disrespect him, but I honestly felt that with his opinions, which I agree he has every right to have, completely contradicts any experiences I've actually had playing the game. That's the only reason why I felt the need to come out and say that I honestly felt he hadn't play the game.
Maybe my experiences are different to other players, but I've played plenty of sample games since the beginning of the beta with mech and from my own personal play and also speaking to other terrans/toss that I practice with in game I felt that he was kindly mistaken and I wanted to try and explain why. My apologies to you Xequecal, hopefully you can forgive my brash nature in my posts in this thread.
I honestly think hidden among my brash posting that there is a lot of truth to what I'm saying. Yes, hellbats will be kept behind the tanks, but if you engage, you can pull away and the hellbats won't catch up with you. If they're in front of the tanks collosus can poke at them and also if they over extend with them they are perfectly kitable by stalkers/immortals. Although personally I think Stalkers shouldn't be used in a composition against tank/hellbat as I've personally found them to just die extremely quickly to tank volleys when protoss players engage me.
Also to counter your point about hellions annihilating probes, the majority of protoss players I've been playing use pylon walls to block off entrances to their expansions and doing a damn good job of making it hard for me to ever hurass later in the game. Another thing that I've personally experienced is as mech is so weak early on (especially tank/hellbat at low tank numbers), it's really hard for the protoss player not to have map control enough to be able to expand all over the place. I guess this depends on the map however.
The biggest problem with your argument is that you don't realize that in PvT, Protoss is dependent on using Zealots to either tank damage, force the enemy army to kite them, or both, allowing its other units to deal damage. Their ability to do this is why mech sucked in WoL. It wasn't because of Immortals. When you have enough tanks, even Immortals get slaughtered. Mech sucked against P because even though blue flame Hellions DO beat Zealots, they have to kite them to do so, (trying to a-move into Zealots or stand your ground with BF hellions gets them slaughtered) and kiting away leaves your Siege Tanks exposed. Even if you were to win the battle, you would lose many tanks, which are expensive and take forever to produce, and are slow to reach your main army as well.
With Hellbats, this is not the case. Hellbats stand up to Zealots and kill them in seconds. You don't need to retreat or kite anymore, they can sit there and tank damage while your tanks and Thors clean up everything after the Zealots die. They are also pretty much impossible to "pick off," they are 135 HP and are healed by medivacs, you can't whittle them down over time, any non-fatal damage is quickly healed. Even if Protoss does manage to kill some hellbats, unlike most mech units, they are cheap and fast moving (in hellion form) so replacements are quickly and easily reactored out and rallied down, then transformed when they reach you.
Unlike in WoL, where you could force the Hellions to move away or get slaughtered, giving you access to the expensive units, in HotS you MUST kill the Hellbats before you can start attacking the meat of the mech army, and you have nothing that does enough DPS to them that allows you to do so. Storm isn't going to kill them alone, they're getting healed by medivacs all the time. You need to push in additional DPS and you have nothing that does so. Stalkers and Immortals do very little and Colossi only hit a few Hellbats at once. By the time you've broken the Hellbats, the high DPS Thors and Siege Tanks will have cleaned up most of your army.
The result right now is that Terran mech is exactly like it was in BW, where if you have a maxed out mech army, it's impossible for P to directly attack. (At least without the long range Tempest, there isn't) However, unlike BW, there are no Arbiters that let you recall into their main or stasis to eliminate a huge portion of the Terran army instantly. Also, in BW, the unit with EMP was a unit that was basically completely useless against P for anything but countering Arbiters and required a huge gas investment to even reach, while in SC2 the unit with EMP also counters HTs and Archons and is available with a single 100/50 building.
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On February 17 2013 00:56 Xequecal wrote:
Unlike in WoL, where you could force the Hellions to move away or get slaughtered, giving you access to the expensive units, in HotS you MUST kill the Hellbats before you can start attacking the meat of the mech army, and you have nothing that does enough DPS to them that allows you to do so. Storm isn't going to kill them alone, they're getting healed by medivacs all the time. You need to push in additional DPS and you have nothing that does so. Stalkers and Immortals do very little and Colossi only hit a few Hellbats at once. By the time you've broken the Hellbats, the high DPS Thors and Siege Tanks will have cleaned up most of your army.
The result right now is that Terran mech is exactly like it was in BW, where if you have a maxed out mech army, it's impossible for P to directly attack. (At least without the long range Tempest, there isn't) However, unlike BW, there are no Arbiters that let you recall into their main or stasis to eliminate a huge portion of the Terran army instantly. Also, in BW, the unit with EMP was a unit that was basically completely useless against P for anything but countering Arbiters and required a huge gas investment to even reach, while in SC2 the unit with EMP also counters HTs and Archons and is available with a single 100/50 building.
So you are saying that T MMMVG deathball vs. P Zealot/Stalker/Archon/Colossi deathball is basically dead?
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Can we get some actual replays of this? Xequecal, since you seem know how strong hellbats are in TvP, i'm sure you'll have plenty of replays or seen pro streams of it? Use dropbox if possible.
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Well no, I can't, since the Tempest does exist at 15 range, and I've been using that. The entire discussion is based on my opinion that mech would be completely overpowered if the Tempest were to be nerfed down to something like 10 range.
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On February 17 2013 02:56 Novacute wrote:
Can we get some actual replays of this? Xequecal, since you seem know how strong hellbats are in TvP, i'm sure you'll have plenty of replays or seen pro streams of it? Use dropbox if possible.
What do you want a replay of? Air vs Mech? I can upload one if you like. But it's a very slow/boring game.
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On February 17 2013 03:30 Xequecal wrote:
Well no, I can't, since the Tempest does exist at 15 range, and I've been using that. The entire discussion is based on my opinion that mech would be completely overpowered if the Tempest were to be nerfed down to something like 10 range.
Definitely not true. Mech already loses on the ground because of Immortals; even if you emp them they still cost effectively destroy tank lines without any needing any micro.
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On February 15 2013 22:01 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 22:00 Xequecal wrote:
They cost THREE HUNDRED GAS. You can kill 5 hellbats per archon lost and you're still trading badly. Against mech you can get so many gas bases that that doesn't really matter does it? Mech is supposed to be cost efficient. It takes so damn long to build, It's slow enough that you can't really punish mass expanding without getting destroyed and if you get caught out of position you just die. if it got beaten by every toss army like it did in WoL then nobody would ever play it.
yes, because archers and immortals are incredibly easy to mas.....;-;
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Definitely not true. Mech already loses on the ground because of Immortals; even if you emp them they still cost effectively destroy tank lines without any needing any micro.
Immortals can't get anywhere near Tanks if you position your Hellbats well in front--Immortal dps vs Hellbats is awful and can't punch through them at all when they've got even a little Medivac support. That gives more than enough time to EMP and destroy them with tank fire (widow mines can work as well since they deal spell damage). Hellbats are crazy good tank units vs. the ground units normally used against tanks like zealots and immortals.
Honestly, well-positioned tanks in the back with Hellbats and Mines in front is virtually impossible for any Protoss ground army to punch through.
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United States7483 Posts
Nuke the cannons, use vikings and a raven (or scans) to prevent an observer or an oracle from spotting the ghost. Cannons are gone, scan to deal with detection, ghosts in, wipe out high templar, vikings engage.
Bam.
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On February 17 2013 13:47 Whitewing wrote:
Nuke the cannons, use vikings and a raven (or scans) to prevent an observer or an oracle from spotting the ghost. Cannons are gone, scan to deal with detection, ghosts in, wipe out high templar, vikings engage.
Bam.
Mass Expand. Simultaneous zergling drops at mains and expos to take out economy/production. Burrow zerglings all over the map to know where airtoss is. 360 degree flank with infestor fungal to hold army, mass hydras surround engage.
Bam.
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I just played a Mid-high masters toss(1.2k pts~?)
He went for a composition like that, just mixed in a ground army though.
My composition was just soley marine medivac ghost and a couple of marauders for kiting. Sniped off most of his observers, and then emped his clumped up army. Even if he spread and had good HT control i'm sure my ghost would've emped/sniped his HT and continue to roll over his units.
Maybe good control with marine medivac ghost could be an answer to tempest/voidray/HT?
Then again i only played one game against a composition some-what like that.
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On February 16 2013 22:31 rpgalon wrote:
I still think the ultimate deathball is mass ravens and the HotS raven supply should be 3.... I can't wait for people to discover a safe way to go mass raven, the QQ is going to be amazing.
Anyway, templar voidray tempest is overhyped, I almost never see it in my laddering or pro streams, that should not be the case if it were "that good", for example, like Blood/infestor in WoL where you see it in.... every match that goes past early game.
And yet when you do see it the zerg always loses, even in the pro streams. I've yet to see or hear of a pro zerg being able to beat this composition, although I believe when toss do get it they often get carriers with it.
And no Blood/infestor was always as strong as it is now and yet we never saw it in early WOL. The same could be said for this composition.
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On February 17 2013 20:59 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 22:31 rpgalon wrote:
I still think the ultimate deathball is mass ravens and the HotS raven supply should be 3.... I can't wait for people to discover a safe way to go mass raven, the QQ is going to be amazing.
Anyway, templar voidray tempest is overhyped, I almost never see it in my laddering or pro streams, that should not be the case if it were "that good", for example, like Blood/infestor in WoL where you see it in.... every match that goes past early game. And yet when you do see it the zerg always loses, even in the pro streams. I've yet to see or hear of a pro zerg being able to beat this composition, although I believe when toss do get it they often get carriers with it. And no Blood/infestor was always as strong as it is now and yet we never saw it in early WOL. The same could be said for this composition.
No, it has been nerfed in HOTS, a lot with direct nerfs and indirectly with the new units.
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To me the problem is this: If the Protoss mass expands, the "normal" zerg response is to expand more and faster. That's all well and good, but if you leave the P alone while your doing your "faster mass expanding" you get rolled by this composition and it doesn't matter how many armies you can make to send against it, it is unkillable.
Once is actually was able to kill the skytoss army, but i used easily 3x the resources then had only corruptors left, not anything i could do damage with. What could i do then except wait to build up an army to deal with his mass cannoning at all his bases, then lose it all to the next skytoss army, this time with carriers.
Currently, i just try to kill the Protoss on 2 base and if not, gg. There is no combination or permutation of zerg units that can deal with this lategame.
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On February 17 2013 23:47 cerebralz wrote:
To me the problem is this: If the Protoss mass expands, the "normal" zerg response is to expand more and faster. That's all well and good, but if you leave the P alone while your doing your "faster mass expanding" you get rolled by this composition and it doesn't matter how many armies you can make to send against it, it is unkillable.
Once is actually was able to kill the skytoss army, but i used easily 3x the resources then had only corruptors left, not anything i could do damage with. What could i do then except wait to build up an army to deal with his mass cannoning at all his bases, then lose it all to the next skytoss army, this time with carriers.
Currently, i just try to kill the Protoss on 2 base and if not, gg. There is no combination or permutation of zerg units that can deal with this lategame.
I found that three base roach/hydra with +1 missile all in deals reasonably well against Protoss at around 14 mins. Without robo, they lack any real stopping power against the swarm or roaches. Also, keep your hydras alive and in the back as a deterrent against voidrays. However, there is one problem, this approach works well in certain maps like star station. Maps like akilon wastes puts my build to shame because the narrow choke requires less forcefields and minimises the arc of attack.
If killing protoss is not an option before late game, preemptive double spire and focus on missile attacks alongside viper tech is my ultimate goal. The typical army composition is around 50 supply of hydras, and 4-5 vipers for pulling any collossi, with around 18 corruptors or so. At this point, my eco is quite low, so fighting well is a must in this situation. This typical comp does well against most types of air protoss with even trades from what i've seen in my replays, however, air compositions with carriers instead of tempests and HTs instead of collossi are very very very cost efficient against my said army. I'm not sure how to deal with such a build, hopefully something will be changed to make zerg anti air better specifically against air protoss. I have considered neural parasite as an option, but with HT's there's too much risk involved.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 17 2013 22:29 Stingart wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 20:59 Disastorm wrote:On February 16 2013 22:31 rpgalon wrote:
I still think the ultimate deathball is mass ravens and the HotS raven supply should be 3.... I can't wait for people to discover a safe way to go mass raven, the QQ is going to be amazing.
Anyway, templar voidray tempest is overhyped, I almost never see it in my laddering or pro streams, that should not be the case if it were "that good", for example, like Blood/infestor in WoL where you see it in.... every match that goes past early game. And yet when you do see it the zerg always loses, even in the pro streams. I've yet to see or hear of a pro zerg being able to beat this composition, although I believe when toss do get it they often get carriers with it. And no Blood/infestor was always as strong as it is now and yet we never saw it in early WOL. The same could be said for this composition. No, it has been nerfed in HOTS, a lot with direct nerfs and indirectly with the new units.
Broodlord infestor certainly isn't that strong anymore, but Broodlord corrupter is still horrible to deal with as mech. Corrupters are really strong vs vikings. Not that that's really too much of an issue as it forces thors/turrets/mines too, against toss I think it's probably much weaker, but against skytoss you probably wouldn't want broodlords anyways.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 17 2013 18:16 Rucky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 13:47 Whitewing wrote:
Nuke the cannons, use vikings and a raven (or scans) to prevent an observer or an oracle from spotting the ghost. Cannons are gone, scan to deal with detection, ghosts in, wipe out high templar, vikings engage.
Bam. Mass Expand. Simultaneous zergling drops at mains and expos to take out economy/production. Burrow zerglings all over the map to know where airtoss is. 360 degree flank with infestor fungal to hold army, mass hydras surround engage. Bam.
Awwww yus.
Seriously, the idea that this is completely unbreakable no matter what is kind of silly.
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On February 18 2013 03:59 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 22:29 Stingart wrote:On February 17 2013 20:59 Disastorm wrote:On February 16 2013 22:31 rpgalon wrote:
I still think the ultimate deathball is mass ravens and the HotS raven supply should be 3.... I can't wait for people to discover a safe way to go mass raven, the QQ is going to be amazing.
Anyway, templar voidray tempest is overhyped, I almost never see it in my laddering or pro streams, that should not be the case if it were "that good", for example, like Blood/infestor in WoL where you see it in.... every match that goes past early game. And yet when you do see it the zerg always loses, even in the pro streams. I've yet to see or hear of a pro zerg being able to beat this composition, although I believe when toss do get it they often get carriers with it. And no Blood/infestor was always as strong as it is now and yet we never saw it in early WOL. The same could be said for this composition. No, it has been nerfed in HOTS, a lot with direct nerfs and indirectly with the new units. Broodlord infestor certainly isn't that strong anymore, but Broodlord corrupter is still horrible to deal with as mech. Corrupters are really strong vs vikings. Not that that's really too much of an issue as it forces thors/turrets/mines too, against toss I think it's probably much weaker, but against skytoss you probably wouldn't want broodlords anyways.
I think that beating curropter + BL is super easy without infestors. You can 1A with 4 PDD's from 2 ravens or you can easily kite, because no fungel means you can move freely. If you're really good then you can press a little button on the thor which makes its AA stronger v curropters and broods.
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I came to give my 2 cents. The best army for zerg to deal with maxed air toss is Maxed mutas (if they have void tempest carrier) and then if they have hightemps in there army as well, You add 20 speedbanes and send them in with the mutas, dodge the first storm (if any) and proceed to win. :D I posted a rep pack of this working many many times. Anyways GLHF gents.
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Reduce Tempest range to 13.
Increase Thor single-target mode range to 13.
Give hydras a Hive upgrade to life (and give them 6 range by default while you're at it, 3 upgrades on one unit is silly).
And finally, make it so air units, or perhaps MASSIVE air units don't stack, so the air deathball occupies a much greater volume.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 20 2013 07:26 Empirimancer wrote:
Reduce Tempest range to 13.
Increase Thor single-target mode range to 13.
Give hydras a Hive upgrade to life (and give them 6 range by default while you're at it, 3 upgrades on one unit is silly).
And finally, make it so air units, or perhaps MASSIVE air units don't stack, so the air deathball occupies a much greater volume.
Massive air units stacking is pretty much the only way broodlords and carriers can be countered by Splash.
HSM is so useful against broodlords purely for the splash and carrier stacking is one of the best ways to micro them, so that's not a brilliant change in my opinion at least.
If anything I'd make air units stack more so they get hard countered more by AOE.
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zvp is such a mess vs this comp, there should be some timing vs this comp, but everything I´ve tried has been twarthed by good players just sitting on their ass and waiting for the comp to be around 140-170 food and then just steamrolls me no matter how many times I remax
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I've noticed the map really does help against this. As terran just recently if I get this on a wide open map, say for example Neo Planet S (I play it in practice games since I love the map) as mech I feel on a bigger map, this is much easier to deal with. However when you look at Akilon Wastes and also Daybreak for instance, they feel so narrow that even the slow air army can move and protect all the bases with very little issues.
I've been complaining about Daybreak being too narrow which was part of the reason for Broodlord/Infestor being so strong. It really feels like on Daybreak especially, if they've gone air, there's nowhere you can make little pushes to try and take out bases as although the air army is slow, the bases are so tightly packed together that it doesn't matter.
It'd be interesting to see if we can finally get rid of Daybreak from the pool and see if wider maps with better spread bases will help with the balance of this, rather than using actual balance changes.
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not trying to bitch or balance whine, but just played a game against HT, void tempest archon with like 3 colosi on daybreak, it baffles me how to beat that as a zerg, my opponent put up honestly about 50 cannons literally. mass corruptor doesnt beat it because the voidrays kill corruptors so fast and tempest help. tried my best to spread corruptors but it doesnt really matter cause storms are just salt on the wound at that point. really hate playing against this and not looking forward to watching zvp, not that blord infestor was that great to watch
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On February 21 2013 11:13 Nazeron wrote:
not trying to bitch or balance whine, but just played a game against HT, void tempest archon with like 3 colosi on daybreak, it baffles me how to beat that as a zerg, my opponent put up honestly about 50 cannons literally. mass corruptor doesnt beat it because the voidrays kill corruptors so fast and tempest help. tried my best to spread corruptors but it doesnt really matter cause storms are just salt on the wound at that point. really hate playing against this and not looking forward to watching zvp, not that blord infestor was that great to watch
Could you post a replay? Sounds far out there...
What were you doing the whole time while he was putting up cannons?
That is a significant chunk of income sunk into static defences.
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On February 21 2013 16:43 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 11:13 Nazeron wrote:
not trying to bitch or balance whine, but just played a game against HT, void tempest archon with like 3 colosi on daybreak, it baffles me how to beat that as a zerg, my opponent put up honestly about 50 cannons literally. mass corruptor doesnt beat it because the voidrays kill corruptors so fast and tempest help. tried my best to spread corruptors but it doesnt really matter cause storms are just salt on the wound at that point. really hate playing against this and not looking forward to watching zvp, not that blord infestor was that great to watch Could you post a replay? Sounds far out there... What were you doing the whole time while he was putting up cannons? That is a significant chunk of income sunk into static defences.
If it weren't cannons, it'd be zealots... gas is all you need in that composition...
plus, don't try corruptors vs. voidrays... I agree 1 voidray should kill 1 corruptor... but as it is, 1 void ray kills 2 corruptors and is still at yellow health
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On February 21 2013 22:28 tisalgado wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 16:43 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 21 2013 11:13 Nazeron wrote:
not trying to bitch or balance whine, but just played a game against HT, void tempest archon with like 3 colosi on daybreak, it baffles me how to beat that as a zerg, my opponent put up honestly about 50 cannons literally. mass corruptor doesnt beat it because the voidrays kill corruptors so fast and tempest help. tried my best to spread corruptors but it doesnt really matter cause storms are just salt on the wound at that point. really hate playing against this and not looking forward to watching zvp, not that blord infestor was that great to watch Could you post a replay? Sounds far out there... What were you doing the whole time while he was putting up cannons? That is a significant chunk of income sunk into static defences. If it weren't cannons, it'd be zealots... gas is all you need in that composition... plus, don't try corruptors vs. voidrays... I agree 1 voidray should kill 1 corruptor... but as it is, 1 void ray kills 2 corruptors and is still at yellow health
Thats only if you fight while Void charge is on. Goad them into triggering it, run away for a bit, come back when its on cooldown and Voids become dramatically less tough.
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On January 04 2013 08:51 Avalain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 07:12 TheSambassador wrote:On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT. Void rays are significantly more costly (250/150 vs 150/100). One Void Ray SHOULD beat one corruptor. You should probably read that again. He's not complaining that void rays beat corruptors 1v1. He's complaining that void rays beat corruptors at an even resource cost. And yes, the reason for this is because they are trying to make it so that mutas beat void rays and corruptors beat phoenix. Another reason is that it's not good if corruptors can beat every other air unit.
All of you are missing a valuable point zerg can make X amount of any unit at anytime. Building Voids 1-4 at a time will take a long time if you are not scouting that then yes you lose to mass Voids vs pressing S CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC and have way more corruptors will destroy Voids.
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On February 21 2013 22:47 Elburracho wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 08:51 Avalain wrote:On January 04 2013 07:12 TheSambassador wrote:On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT. Void rays are significantly more costly (250/150 vs 150/100). One Void Ray SHOULD beat one corruptor. You should probably read that again. He's not complaining that void rays beat corruptors 1v1. He's complaining that void rays beat corruptors at an even resource cost. And yes, the reason for this is because they are trying to make it so that mutas beat void rays and corruptors beat phoenix. Another reason is that it's not good if corruptors can beat every other air unit. All of you are missing a valuable point zerg can make X amount of any unit at anytime. Building Voids 1-4 at a time will take a long time if you are not scouting that then yes you lose to mass Voids vs pressing S CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC and have way more corruptors will destroy Voids.
the problem isn't about surprise mass voids... it's about a defensive air play... you know he's building voids inside his base... behind the cannons and zealots... but what can you really do about it? he'll make a lot of voids, a few tempests, some HTs and then move out... (maybe some zealot, phoenix or oracle harrass meanwhile)... being able to build several corruptors at once is nice indeed, but if the voids are beating corruptors both per cost and per suply, it means you can't keep trading armies to avoid him to max out.... and you can't fight a maxxed army either...
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On February 21 2013 23:24 tisalgado wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 22:47 Elburracho wrote:On January 04 2013 08:51 Avalain wrote:On January 04 2013 07:12 TheSambassador wrote:On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT. Void rays are significantly more costly (250/150 vs 150/100). One Void Ray SHOULD beat one corruptor. You should probably read that again. He's not complaining that void rays beat corruptors 1v1. He's complaining that void rays beat corruptors at an even resource cost. And yes, the reason for this is because they are trying to make it so that mutas beat void rays and corruptors beat phoenix. Another reason is that it's not good if corruptors can beat every other air unit. All of you are missing a valuable point zerg can make X amount of any unit at anytime. Building Voids 1-4 at a time will take a long time if you are not scouting that then yes you lose to mass Voids vs pressing S CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC and have way more corruptors will destroy Voids. the problem isn't about surprise mass voids... it's about a defensive air play... you know he's building voids inside his base... behind the cannons and zealots... but what can you really do about it? he'll make a lot of voids, a few tempests, some HTs and then move out... (maybe some zealot, phoenix or oracle harrass meanwhile)... being able to build several corruptors at once is nice indeed, but if the voids are beating corruptors both per cost and per suply, it means you can't keep trading armies to avoid him to max out.... and you can't fight a maxxed army either...
From the most recent discussion on ITG, defensive air play can be dealt(in theory, all this stuff is new) with by containing the protoss 3 bases and building a massive economy. Then when the slow ass army moves out, you counter attack the main base and cripple their infrastructure and smoother the main army slowly with the economy you built up. I would guess you would want to focus on bringing down the warpgates, since that storm is the source of all the suffering. ITG also said there were some BS maps in the beta where protoss gets a free 4 bases, which should be avoided. Also, they said that fungle still ruins voidrays if you can land one or two on them. Void rays are still dumb and clump up.
This is all theory, mind you, but it seems sound. This is how I have dealt with all defensive play to a super army for all the match ups(playing protoss). Anytime someone turtles up on two to three bases and fails even try to expand, I know its time to take way to many bases and prepare to drown them in A-moved zealots.
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On February 21 2013 23:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 23:24 tisalgado wrote:On February 21 2013 22:47 Elburracho wrote:On January 04 2013 08:51 Avalain wrote:On January 04 2013 07:12 TheSambassador wrote:On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT. Void rays are significantly more costly (250/150 vs 150/100). One Void Ray SHOULD beat one corruptor. You should probably read that again. He's not complaining that void rays beat corruptors 1v1. He's complaining that void rays beat corruptors at an even resource cost. And yes, the reason for this is because they are trying to make it so that mutas beat void rays and corruptors beat phoenix. Another reason is that it's not good if corruptors can beat every other air unit. All of you are missing a valuable point zerg can make X amount of any unit at anytime. Building Voids 1-4 at a time will take a long time if you are not scouting that then yes you lose to mass Voids vs pressing S CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC and have way more corruptors will destroy Voids. the problem isn't about surprise mass voids... it's about a defensive air play... you know he's building voids inside his base... behind the cannons and zealots... but what can you really do about it? he'll make a lot of voids, a few tempests, some HTs and then move out... (maybe some zealot, phoenix or oracle harrass meanwhile)... being able to build several corruptors at once is nice indeed, but if the voids are beating corruptors both per cost and per suply, it means you can't keep trading armies to avoid him to max out.... and you can't fight a maxxed army either... From the most recent discussion on ITG, defensive air play can be dealt(in theory, all this stuff is new) with by containing the protoss 3 bases and building a massive economy. Then when the slow ass army moves out, you counter attack the main base and cripple their infrastructure and smoother the main army slowly with the economy you built up. I would guess you would want to focus on bringing down the warpgates, since that storm is the source of all the suffering. ITG also said there were some BS maps in the beta where protoss gets a free 4 bases, which should be avoided. Also, they said that fungle still ruins voidrays if you can land one or two on them. Void rays are still dumb and clump up. This is all theory, mind you, but it seems sound. This is how I have dealt with all defensive play to a super army for all the match ups(playing protoss). Anytime someone turtles up on two to three bases and fails even try to expand, I know its time to take way to many bases and prepare to drown them in A-moved zealots.
Yeah, I've watched the latest ITG, but even though it makes sense as a best response atm, I still don't think it's a good one... I've been watching IdrA try that exact concept, and I always feel that the protoss could have moved out just until they reached a 4th base, instead of going all in... runbies are always good, but against this extremely gas heavy build, cannons should be up before the protoss move out...
also, about immobility, with the MSC, you have 2x recall to deal with army movement...
about the FG, even though voidrays still clump up, projectile shots give the protoss a chance to respread once he sees he's clumping up (I'm not saying with the projectile on flight, but as sson as they start clumping, if you fix it, you probably won't get all of them fungaled)... also, tempests outrange infestors and can snipe them handily, and with the damage nerfs, it takes 4 FG to get past the shields, which is more than enough time to move your tempests or HT to better position to save the clumped/fungaled voids...
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EPT
