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I have not had a chance to play the HOTS Beta, yet this combination just sounds extremely broken.
Even if you might not see it at the moment, you did not see broodlord / infestor at the beginning of WOL either, - simply because noone knew how to get there.
Why is this different from WOL
Try to think of an army consisting of 3 Photon cannons, slightly behind that are 5 Tempests, and a ball of voidrays. A few tempar wait spread out nearby.
Now think of how you could engage that.
Vs terran,
Airplay was not seen from protoss, simply because of the dominance of marines.
Everyone played bio and even if you managed to commit to Carriers / Voidrays, in the ultra lategame they would simply get shut down by Vikings alone.
Vikings in WOL dart in, snipe a carrier and leave danger again, usually you would trade 1 Carrier for 1 Viking. However 3/3 Carriers Beat 3/3 Marines, even in WOL.
HOTS, this is now totally different. Voidrays with the initial charge completely wreck Vikings. The kiting is negated by the insane range of tempest. To fire a volley upon a tempest would put you in Voidray range, while the voidrays can use tempests to retreat.
3-5 templar thrown into the mix would also negate any marine or heavy viking play even more.
Thors, Ghosts, Ravens, Widowmines, all pretty much useless in that scenario
Vs Zerg
We have seen the strength of air even more in this matchup, especially White-Ra popularised the Carrier. Airplay can already be hard to deal with.
There are, right now exactly 2 Respones to actually killing Airplay.
1) Infestor Hydra - Might still work, however the tempest will Snipe any Infestor trying to do ninja fungals. And once you have templar i doubt that will work at all anymore.
2) Heavy corruptors - These like the vikings are considerd armored. Voidrays will destroy them MUCH more onesided than before. Infestors can be shut down by tempests
and templar.
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Other strengths of this build.
Phoenix, Oracle easily acsessable.
Photon Cannons / Zealots / Prism as mineral dumps.
Fleet beacon.
Mothership Core now here for early defense.
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You might be wondering how you can tech to that, and that if that worked you would see some form of it in WOL too.
HOWEVER the big problem is, in WOL, having this army would still let you lose against someone with superior economy. Now fights should be much more one sided towards protoss.
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Suggestions
Change the tempest to a ground unit. Giving it more weaknesses.
TL:DR
The tempests huge range fills holes in an unstoppable protoss army. While difficult to get to a combination of Voidray / Tempest / Templar can turn out to be a huge problem later on in the game.
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on a final note, I really hope that this is not imbalanced, I enjoy the tempest in its current state. I also play protoss, I just dont want the shift from the "unstoppable lowskill endgame army" to go from zerg to protoss.
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United States4883 Posts
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms.
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I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT.
Because Void Rays are official counters to corruptors, but Mutalisk - official counter to vrays.
One problem - Phoenixes can outrange corruptors.
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This is 100% theorycraft, would likely require a huge amount of good control from the Protoss player, and is one of the most gas-consuming compositions that anybody has ever thought of.
You're worrying about something that hasn't even been attempted yet. You have no replays, and just think that this is potentially broken. This is a silly thread.
Zerg can get into Infestor Broodlord because of their production mechanic. They can build 10 corruptors as they start their Greater Spire, and then can morph them all to broodlords when it's done. They can make 6+ infestors at a time to assist their Brood Lords.
If you're "transitioning" into this composition as Protoss, you're going to need at LEAST 3 Stargates (450 gas), and a TON of time. There is no way to create this army quickly enough, EVEN if you have the resources of a 4-base protoss.
Out of all the things to worry about, this composition seems like a really silly one.
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On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT.
Void rays are significantly more costly (250/150 vs 150/100). One Void Ray SHOULD beat one corruptor.
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On January 04 2013 06:17 weikor wrote:
this combination just sounds extremely broken.
Totally agreed.
I play HOTS beta as RANDOM. I played both protoss and terran, with and against this composition.
For PvT, when terran goes mech, tempest is almost an 1A. However if the terran turtles too much, tempest/templar/Void Ray (or carrier instead of void ray) is totally unbeatable. It's more broken than BL/Corruptor/infestor for Z in WoL.
Something must be done, but I have to say that playing protoss air is cool.
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On January 04 2013 07:11 TheSambassador wrote:
This is 100% theorycraft, would likely require a huge amount of good control from the Protoss player, and is one of the most gas-consuming compositions that anybody has ever thought of.
You're worrying about something that hasn't even been attempted yet. You have no replays, and just think that this is potentially broken. This is a silly thread.
Zerg can get into Infestor Broodlord because of their production mechanic. They can build 10 corruptors as they start their Greater Spire, and then can morph them all to broodlords when it's done. They can make 6+ infestors at a time to assist their Brood Lords.
If you're "transitioning" into this composition as Protoss, you're going to need at LEAST 3 Stargates (450 gas), and a TON of time. There is no way to create this army quickly enough, EVEN if you have the resources of a 4-base protoss.
Out of all the things to worry about, this composition seems like a really silly one.
The problem is this is not WoL, and u don't need to be quick with such army, u can take a slow approach, adding stargate one at a time upgrading, expanding and harassing simultaneously. There is no "kill him before blords or be dead" - even 2 tempest are a huge help vs them, and ultras, despite being so much better, are still hard countered by immortals.
A good protoss player will slowly sacrifice their zealots, sentries and stalkers and replenish with carriers/tempests/archons/whatever u wish to make their truly unbeatable army.
Not that this is wrong - I always felt protoss is kind of entitled to have the strongest army around.
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On January 04 2013 07:12 TheSambassador wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT. Void rays are significantly more costly (250/150 vs 150/100). One Void Ray SHOULD beat one corruptor.
You should probably read that again. He's not complaining that void rays beat corruptors 1v1. He's complaining that void rays beat corruptors at an even resource cost.
And yes, the reason for this is because they are trying to make it so that mutas beat void rays and corruptors beat phoenix. Another reason is that it's not good if corruptors can beat every other air unit.
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Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now.
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now.
Is the protoss weak to a zerg timing before a critical mass of whatever the hell we turtle to is reached?
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On January 04 2013 06:17 weikor wrote:
Thors, Ghosts, Ravens, Widowmines, all pretty much useless in that scenario
Wondering how you find Ravens useless, when PDD stops Tempest shots, doesn't stop Voidray beams, and doesn't block Storm, ie all its energy can stop the Tempest harass as the Vikings kite the Voidrays in 'theory'
Honestly thou, until HotS is released and people really practice and try things and refine builds to hold all the old + new pressures/timings we won't know if transitioning in to this comp is even possible ie in 'theory' Ghost, Raven, Battlecrusier is incredible powerful for Terran, but nobody uses it as you just die in trying to transition.
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It is very common for toss to open with a quick stargate and go for void rays/oracles. Toss will tech behind ffe and forcefield and then use mothercore to take a third either aggressively with stalkers(so they can recall and face no risk) or defensively with minimum army while they spend on tech. They can get 2 stargates pumping out units while they STILL have enough mins/gas to afford storm and templars. IMO the problem with protoss right now is that the mothershipcore is too good. It makes early banshees/swarmhosts/dts COMPLETELY useless while providing a turbocannon that makes killing any nexus extremely hard. This means they have reduced how aggressive their opponents can be while at the same time increasing how defensive they can be. The relatively low cost of a mothershipcore doesn't make it a huge investment early game and it allows you to transition easily into a 3 base Toss. This forces Zergs and Terran to either severely damage their opponent and get FAR ahead before late game happens or to just allin and straight out kill him before late game happens. This means that zerg/terran will have to play super aggressive against protoss and this is imbalanced because of the defensive benefits from the mothershipcore. Zerg can try roach allins but roaches are armored so one voidray and good sentry walls stop this. IDK about what Terran can do to try stop this, maybe a viking/tank or viking/bio timing attack?
Heres a breakdown of the protoss air army DETAILING why it is so strong.
Oracle: This unit has an ability that allows it to do HEAVY damage to light units. IT HAS MORE DPS THAN A FUCKING ARCHON with a 3.375 move speed. It does 25 dps to workers(light units). It is a high speed maneuverable air unit with high potential to do HEAVY damage to your economy.
Voidray: This unit can do a potential 32 DPS to armored units. Granted it is normally just 12 it has potential to do 32 dps for 20 seconds. Not many full engages last longer than 20 seconds. This unit can do tremendous damage to any army composition that has a significant amount of armored *ground* units.
*Even Corruptors melt to it.
Mothershipcore: 100/100 cost. I'm not entirely sure what the exact dps of Photon Overcharge(Planetary Nexus) is but in game it is a lot. Envision, detection in a large area. You can see cloaked units and give a Nexus high dps/range. This is the ultimate defensive unit.
Tempest: This unit obsoletes broodlords, battlecruiser, and any other unit that unfortunatly is flying and massive. As soon as this unit is in play those other units are COMPLETELY useless. The reason being it has a 30(PLUS 50) #$%@ DAMAGE ATTACK to massive air units with more range than a tank. Not sure if it does 80 damage or 30 damage to Colossus. Zerg weep.
It may be brought up that these units don't have high hp. They don't need to. Protoss have three REALLY STRONG terrain controllers at their disposal. High Templar, Sentry, Oracle. It is almost never a good idea to attack INTO storms. Sentries have the capabilities to completely block passage. Oracles create a very large slowed area. A toss just has to pick one of these units that go well with his army comp and not herp derp fail with them. He can use these to effectively keep you far enough away from his units that they will not suffer much damage.
TL DR: Protoss is imbalanced because the mothershipcore provides too many defensive benefits that allows Protoss to easy 3base into an extremely high damage Deathball. This forces aggressive play from opponents that is punishable by just defending. The protoss can engage really well with his strong terrain control and his high dps units.
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On January 04 2013 08:54 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now. Is the protoss weak to a zerg timing before a critical mass of whatever the hell we turtle to is reached?
Zerg has chances to attack and do damage and I imagine there are timings that can kill a toss before he can get the army of course, but it's not like wol zerg.
The big difference between the wol zerg deathball zvp and hots protoss deathball pvz is that protoss is adding it in slowly all game long.
So there isn't like a window of timing where you have to attack or that army is out. From my understanding so far the zerg is pretty much trying to trade armies if possible, at minimum keeping that deathball as low as possible.
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The problem isn't whether or not protoss is capable of reaching that army composition, it's that if they do zerg has absolutely no response. Pull up a unit tester and see for yourself how strong void ray templar is. I spent an hour trying to come up with a counter before giving up.
Think about the current infestor corruptor brood lord composition vs protoss in WoL. It's like that but worse. Bad design, bad gameplay.
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On January 04 2013 09:12 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 08:54 Teoita wrote:On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now. Is the protoss weak to a zerg timing before a critical mass of whatever the hell we turtle to is reached? Zerg has chances to attack and do damage and I imagine there are timings that can kill a toss before he can get the army of course, but it's not like wol zerg. The big difference between the wol zerg deathball zvp and hots protoss deathball pvz is that protoss is adding it in slowly all game long. So there isn't like a window of timing where you have to attack or that army is out. From my understanding so far the zerg is pretty much trying to trade armies if possible, at minimum keeping that deathball as low as possible.
Pretty mutch this.
Its really hard to play ZvP overall i feel.
If the protoss dedicates to the defense there are little weaknesses.
there are some Roach/Hydra timings but they get shut down by the protoss taking his bases slowly and as soon as P has Colossi you need to wait untill Vipers/Corrupters so Protoss has more time to secure a 3rd and build up his ultimate air army.
Because of SC2s broken Economy system 3 bases are more then enough to max out on T3 Air with some T2 support.
Another problem is that Protoss has 2xT3 air and a T2 air unit that demolishes Zergs dedicated anti air.
So basicly the Zerg air tech tree stops at T2 with a incredibly shitti dedicated anto air and a herrass unit (broodlords excluded because they dont do shit vs air obv)
You simply cant make mass Terran/Protoss air armys viable when Zerg simply has little anti air.
All out T3 units (Ultra, Broodlord and Viper) basicly only affect Ground (Abduct does affect air but has not mutch of an impact), our T2 AA dies to temps or Voids in the case of the corruptor and our T1 dosnt attack air at all.
The only way i´ve seen ppl beat it was when machine contained the Protoss in a incredibly long turtle game, threw 5 maxed armies at Protoss untill he ran out of gas and then killed him over the course of 20 minutes with max queen with some corrupters.
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The only way i´ve seen ppl beat it was when machine contained the Protoss in a incredibly long turtle game, threw 5 maxed armies at Protoss untill he ran out of gas and then killed him over the course of 20 minutes with max queen with some corrupters.
Do you know where I may see the VOD for this? What day was he streaming? PLZ tell me anything that will let me see this game or get the replay.
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I by no means want to say that this will give protoss 100% win rate. Im sure there are certain timings to abuse, especially where protoss does not have everything they want yet.
Right now for protoss its : Got to inflict damage before he gets too much X
I suspect that in HOTS its : Turtle untill I have X
Giving you a totally different approach to your game.
Concerning recourses: Broodlord infestor also costs an insane amount of recources. Investing all the minerals into spinecrawlers.
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I feel that theres no real reason for Tempest not be a robotics- ground - unit, it would still allow most of the similar strategies, and counter BL infestor.
And the anti massive Tempest could be countered by light ground units(Light air units in general are awful head to head combat units)
The only reason its air is because they planned it for replacing the carrier, then redesigned its role.
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EPT
