EPTTemplar Voidray Tempest - Page 4
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
On January 04 2013 09:07 CthulhuWarlord wrote: It is very common for toss to open with a quick stargate and go for void rays/oracles. Toss will tech behind ffe and forcefield and then use mothercore to take a third either aggressively with stalkers(so they can recall and face no risk) or defensively with minimum army while they spend on tech. They can get 2 stargates pumping out units while they STILL have enough mins/gas to afford storm and templars. IMO the problem with protoss right now is that the mothershipcore is too good. It makes early banshees/swarmhosts/dts COMPLETELY useless while providing a turbocannon that makes killing any nexus extremely hard. This means they have reduced how aggressive their opponents can be while at the same time increasing how defensive they can be. The relatively low cost of a mothershipcore doesn't make it a huge investment early game and it allows you to transition easily into a 3 base Toss. This forces Zergs and Terran to either severely damage their opponent and get FAR ahead before late game happens or to just allin and straight out kill him before late game happens. This means that zerg/terran will have to play super aggressive against protoss and this is imbalanced because of the defensive benefits from the mothershipcore. Zerg can try roach allins but roaches are armored so one voidray and good sentry walls stop this. IDK about what Terran can do to try stop this, maybe a viking/tank or viking/bio timing attack? Heres a breakdown of the protoss air army DETAILING why it is so strong. Oracle: This unit has an ability that allows it to do HEAVY damage to light units. IT HAS MORE DPS THAN A FUCKING ARCHON with a 3.375 move speed. It does 25 dps to workers(light units). It is a high speed maneuverable air unit with high potential to do HEAVY damage to your economy. Voidray: This unit can do a potential 32 DPS to armored units. Granted it is normally just 12 it has potential to do 32 dps for 20 seconds. Not many full engages last longer than 20 seconds. This unit can do tremendous damage to any army composition that has a significant amount of armored *ground* units. *Even Corruptors melt to it. Mothershipcore: 100/100 cost. I'm not entirely sure what the exact dps of Photon Overcharge(Planetary Nexus) is but in game it is a lot. Envision, detection in a large area. You can see cloaked units and give a Nexus high dps/range. This is the ultimate defensive unit. Tempest: This unit obsoletes broodlords, battlecruiser, and any other unit that unfortunatly is flying and massive. As soon as this unit is in play those other units are COMPLETELY useless. The reason being it has a 30(PLUS 50) #$%@ DAMAGE ATTACK to massive air units with more range than a tank. Not sure if it does 80 damage or 30 damage to Colossus. Zerg weep. It may be brought up that these units don't have high hp. They don't need to. Protoss have three REALLY STRONG terrain controllers at their disposal. High Templar, Sentry, Oracle. It is almost never a good idea to attack INTO storms. Sentries have the capabilities to completely block passage. Oracles create a very large slowed area. A toss just has to pick one of these units that go well with his army comp and not herp derp fail with them. He can use these to effectively keep you far enough away from his units that they will not suffer much damage. TL DR: Protoss is imbalanced because the mothershipcore provides too many defensive benefits that allows Protoss to easy 3base into an extremely high damage Deathball. This forces aggressive play from opponents that is punishable by just defending. The protoss can engage really well with his strong terrain control and his high dps units. I don't get it ... why do ppl still complain about a race when it's still called a "beta" !? Don't even touch the word imbalance if the final version of the game is not even out yet... I personally think that Terran has a huge early game advantage, until you scout and find Terran, especially on a 4 player map, it's almost impossible to hold early agressions, most of the Protoss die directly and Zerg loses most of the mining time or has to invest into other units to be safe and can't really drone up Edit: sry for double post | ||
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moQbara
Romania76 Posts
2. It's beta. Given this game's complexity, absolutely no one can know how things are balanced now, since you have so little time to play it and not enough experience to understand all the changes. We can only notice the big errors / unbalances (22 range tempest?). 3. It's beta. Do not expect for HotS to be perfect on 12.03.2013. It will still require fine tuning after having a lot more players playing a lot more games and after the "metagame" evolvs. Just like anything else. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On January 04 2013 20:23 Breach_hu wrote: But you forget, that Tempest do shot in the air, and BL doesnot. So you dont need deadweight vikings and such. Just pure tempest and some HTs. Well, Infestors kill Vikings with chain fungals or Infested Terrans. HTs are good against Vikings but misscontrolling for half a second will not lose you 8 Vikings against Storm. Still I don't know if Scan + killing Observers and Cloak+EMP can deal with the Templars as well as a ton of the Tempests' HP. For now this is really really theoretical and without the resume from replay function we will probably not find out what actually happens for a long time. With the resume function you could test different micro techniques as well as unit compositions really quickly. | ||
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blackbrrd
Norway477 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Protoss has always had the ultilities to be able to beat any race, but have never explored anything apart from collosus and templar play >.< Watching the IPL show match of Korea vs ROW, and Squirtle did his mass carrier build vs Nerchio and just face rolled his corrupter/blord/infestor army with so much ease. (all be it, nerchio was in the dark and had about 3minutes of game time knowledge to counter that army) | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
In any case, the best way to fight this kind of mass air composition is to abuse it's mobility. Fighting it head on only works for certain timings, before it's reached critical mass. Lots of Speedling and Speed Roach multiprong harassment is needed. Why would you want to attack 3/3 Skytoss + Templar with Zerg units which are too weak to put a dent into it? Ruin their economy, then you can try to make a couple direct engagements to win the game. Otherwise, you're going to have to deal with a Protoss remax, possibly even from tons of Warpgates, which can massacre your anti-air focused army. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On January 04 2013 23:45 Arco wrote: Isn't Protoss supposed to have the "strongest" army? The other races, particularly the Zerg who are supposed to have the "weakest" units must try and avoid it until they've damaged the Protoss economy enough so when they eventually fight it, Protoss has no way of rebuilding it. Even if you lose your entire army killing it, you can simply rebuild and beat it with a second army. In any case, the best way to fight this kind of mass air composition is to abuse it's mobility. Fighting it head on only works for certain timings, before it's reached critical mass. Lots of Speedling and Speed Roach multiprong harassment is needed. Why would you want to attack 3/3 Skytoss + Templar with Zerg units which are too weak to put a dent into it? Ruin their economy, then you can try to make a couple direct engagements to win the game. Otherwise, you're going to have to deal with a Protoss remax, possibly even from tons of Warpgates, which can massacre your anti-air focused army. While that can be true, as infestor/broodlord has shown sometimes the ability to turtle up ends up being too strong anyway. This is what people are concerned about. On topic: i've played a few sky toss into templar games and holy fuck does it feel strong. So much stronger than using ground units :O | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On January 04 2013 23:45 Arco wrote: Isn't Protoss supposed to have the "strongest" army? The other races, particularly the Zerg who are supposed to have the "weakest" units must try and avoid it until they've damaged the Protoss economy enough so when they eventually fight it, Protoss has no way of rebuilding it. Even if you lose your entire army killing it, you can simply rebuild and beat it with a second army. In any case, the best way to fight this kind of mass air composition is to abuse it's mobility. Fighting it head on only works for certain timings, before it's reached critical mass. Lots of Speedling and Speed Roach multiprong harassment is needed. Why would you want to attack 3/3 Skytoss + Templar with Zerg units which are too weak to put a dent into it? Ruin their economy, then you can try to make a couple direct engagements to win the game. Otherwise, you're going to have to deal with a Protoss remax, possibly even from tons of Warpgates, which can massacre your anti-air focused army. You can use this reasoning against any composition. But that doesnt make it true. It is really easy to say you should just ruin their economy, but with that logic we might as well triple the HP and attack of thors while keeping everything the same. Horribly overpowered? Nah, you should just ruin the terrans economy. And all air compositions have fairly reasonable mobility. Sure not speedling mobility, but for example thor vs battlecruiser, battlecruiser mobility is far better. No idea what the raw speed numbers say, but not being affected by terrain and other units is huge for mobility. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
Also, I really laugh at the "efficient" mineral dump in zealots... you're completely wasting hundreds of minerals if you zealot warp-in when fighting swarm hosts. That's not to say don't warp in zealots, because you have to, but come on. TLDR: Masters/GM level there are responses to it and it isn't as bad as you think. Play the beta more. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On January 04 2013 23:51 Teoita wrote: While that can be true, as infestor/broodlord has shown sometimes the ability to turtle up ends up being too strong anyway. This is what people are concerned about. On topic: i've played a few sky toss into templar games and holy fuck does it feel strong. So much stronger than using ground units :O Turtling itself isn't the problem. There are a variety of 2 base and 3 base timings that are extremely hard to deal with for Zerg players trying to turtle up, just as there probably exist several timings to deal with Skytoss. In regards to Skytoss, Zerg and Terran have plenty of different units to deal with it in a cost effective manner. The key to winning is to damage the economy. That way you can even beat it with weaker/lower tech units. It might require an army remax, but if his economy is in ruin he won't be remaking another army. Dealing with it head to head is not something to take likely. Skytoss/Templar is the "best theoretical army" of Protoss. To fight it head to head you must also go for the "best theoretical army" of your race. This means a full late game scenario of maximizing your supply (sacrificing workers and useless army supply) and getting full upgrades with the best possible army to fight it. You can't just haphazardly try to attack it whenever you want. You probably won't even put a dent into it. On January 04 2013 23:56 Sissors wrote: You can use this reasoning against any composition. But that doesnt make it true. It is really easy to say you should just ruin their economy, but with that logic we might as well triple the HP and attack of thors while keeping everything the same. Horribly overpowered? Nah, you should just ruin the terrans economy. And all air compositions have fairly reasonable mobility. Sure not speedling mobility, but for example thor vs battlecruiser, battlecruiser mobility is far better. No idea what the raw speed numbers say, but not being affected by terrain and other units is huge for mobility. That's the whole element to StarCraft 2 (and even Brood War) that people don't really realize. The game ISN'T balanced equally. In fact, there are three unique races in the game. The game is only balanced if you play to make it that way. The topic creator lists unit compositions as the "best" solution to deal with Skytoss. There is no magical unit composition to win games. This is a real time strategy game. You must make do with what you have and utilize it in a correct way in order to win. What works for some players might not work for others because of playing it incorrectly. Races are balanced differently. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On January 05 2013 01:14 tehemperorer wrote: It's a frightening unit composition, but in reality it isn't that bad. The best response I've had in beta was from a GM player who responded the right way with a lot of corruptors during the time I was on 3 stargates but not Fleet Beacon tech yet. He soon after got swarm hosts, and I couldn't for the life of me stop the locust waves because the msc would get sniped while trying to detect and I had to focus on the swarm hosts instead of the corruptors. Also, I really laugh at the "efficient" mineral dump in zealots... you're completely wasting hundreds of minerals if you zealot warp-in when fighting swarm hosts. That's not to say don't warp in zealots, because you have to, but come on. TLDR: Masters/GM level there are responses to it and it isn't as bad as you think. Play the beta more. I disagree with this, void rays demolish corruptors horribly now. They are not a great response to heavy stargate play imo, unless your opponent has skimped on void rays for some reason | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
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dragoon
United States695 Posts
On January 04 2013 08:54 Teoita wrote: Is the protoss weak to a zerg timing before a critical mass of whatever the hell we turtle to is reached? I don't know, was the zerg weak to a timing before bl/infestor in WoL? ahem (wonwonwon) | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On January 05 2013 01:37 joon wrote: I don't know, was the zerg weak to a timing before bl/infestor in WoL? ahem (wonwonwon) I'm talking more about something similar to 3base pushes. 2base WoL PvZ timings are completely different. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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larse
1611 Posts
On January 05 2013 01:54 Emzeeshady wrote: Marines are even better against them unless I am mistaken. No, if you don't micro marine properly, the new void ray will beat marine with the same supply. Crazy I know. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On January 05 2013 03:28 larse wrote: No, if you don't micro marine properly, the new void ray will beat marine with the same supply. Crazy I know. The Void Ray is the most expensive cost per supply unit in the game. Marines, like all T1 units, are very cheap per supply. 9 supply of Marines cost 450 minerals--9 supply of Voids cost 750 minerals and 450 gas. Comparing supply vs supply doesn't therefore doesn't seem all that useful. It is worth noting that the extreme cost per supply of the Void makes it one of the most supply-efficient units to have in a 200/200 army. Its sort of like the anti-roach--Roaches are super cheap and fast to build, so pre-cap when supply isn't as important they're really strong, but just remaxing on Roaches isn't that good at all because they are really supply inefficient. Voids are expensive as hell, but once the supply cap is reached, they give you more punch for 3 supply than any non-caster in the game. | ||
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J.E.G.
United States389 Posts
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