| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS |
|
D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
On January 04 2013 06:34 Existor wrote: Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms. Same as in WoL -> Corrupter hit carrier / mommaship -> clump -> stormuu. Happens when you stopped manmode and activated nancymode. | ||
|
iKill
Denmark861 Posts
On January 05 2013 11:14 D4V3Z02 wrote: Same as in WoL -> Corrupter hit carrier / mommaship -> clump -> stormuu. Happens when you stopped manmode and activated nancymode. The difference is that the long range toss air in WoL is hardcountered by fungal. In HotS that's no longer the case for several reasons. | ||
|
ETisME
12483 Posts
| ||
|
Innovation
United States284 Posts
It will get nerfed...just hold tight. Although we may suffer through 80% loss rates in the matchup for a while  .Basically I revert to all-in off two or three base with either roach, infestor timing or hydra ling timing. | ||
|
MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
VoidRays currently have no working counter and needs less DPS. Tempest need less hp so that units that manages to reach them actually can kill them. I am confident that Blizzard will fix this since it is pointless to test the rest of the game until this is fixed. | ||
|
Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On January 04 2013 07:12 TheSambassador wrote: Void rays are significantly more costly (250/150 vs 150/100). One Void Ray SHOULD beat one corruptor. You didn't pay attention to the wording or else intentionally ignored it (the former, I expect). "PER COST". Corruptors are poor vs void rays per cost, especially now in HotS. Mutalisks are also actually not cost efficient against void rays, at best, with full bounces, they're about even. People's comments about how good Mutalisks are against void rays are like the arguments people would make about Mutalisks vs Goliaths in BW that used to occur before Mech featured a resurgence. They would always base "how good they are" based on what they'd seen, without thinking about the fact that they would almost always see a significantly higher resource value of mutalisks fighting the goliaths, so the mutas would win, when cost for cost gollies were pretty good against mutas. This is the same situation, where people treat it like mutas slaughter void rays cost for cost, when that's simply not true. You can argue that mutalisks are a reasonable response to void rays as long as you have the resources, available supply and (pretty damn likely) the larva for more than equal value amounts, but calling them a 'counter' when they're typically at least a little cost inefficient is absolute bullshit. Then there's supply. If it typically takes say 1.8 mutas to a void ray, that's 3.6 supply for every void ray, which somehow, to this day, has not been fixed so that it costs the appropriate 4 supply. They cos more than immortals and yet use less supply. Hydralisks are meant to be very good against void rays, but while they are cost-efficient against void rays, they're supply inefficient, as, like mutalisks, you need a bare minimum of about 1.7 per void ray, probably more, which obviously totals more than the 3 supply void rays need despite hydras being a direct 'counter'. Fix void rays to make sure they're strong enough without being over powered, but do it with them centred around using the 4 supply they bloody well should (and should have since the WoL beta). Grruauuaueeghhh. All this in ZvP when we also have supply-obese roaches. Gkkkhhhaaerrrgh. I'm not sure right now, but I'd have thought the Tempest would be fine (maybe the 80 total vs massive should be 60 otherwise?) so long as the rest of the composition is balanced although again, the supply efficiency is .....questionable, using only 4. Aren't they as good as Colossi and Ultralisks?* *The current Ultras are so good you can probably expect them to be nerfed but remain at 6 supply. I'm not as confident Blizzard will change the supply cost of the Tempest. | ||
|
Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
On January 05 2013 20:21 MockHamill wrote: Both Voidrays alone and Tempest/HT is broken vs Terran. VoidRays currently have no working counter and needs less DPS. Tempest need less hp so that units that manages to reach them actually can kill them. I am confident that Blizzard will fix this since it is pointless to test the rest of the game until this is fixed. Or perhaps try harder to figure out a counter? There's been situations where things looked utterly overpowered until someone comes along wiht a new playstyle that completely destroys it. | ||
|
dust7
199 Posts
On January 04 2013 23:45 Arco wrote: Isn't Protoss supposed to have the "strongest" army? I don't think that's necessary for the identity of the race. In Broodwar, nothing but a superior economy could touch 3/3 200 supply terran mech. Protoss is not imperatively about the strongest army, but about the strongest (yet costly) individual units, which is a big difference. | ||
|
Decendos
Germany1340 Posts
last thing i can think of is building an retardedly high amount of spores. like literally 100-200. maybe that works?! | ||
|
Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
On January 05 2013 23:20 Decendos wrote: i simply cant win against this. hydras, mutas and queens are 100% useless. that leaves corruptor and infestor. but even 2-4 bases up and 4 remaxes get destroyed so easily. it just makes me sad right now. dont know what else to try. they just build 5-20 cannons at their expansions so you need SH or BLs to attack into them which means you have even less AA or you dont attack, take all bases....and lose because their army beats a 4 time remax. back to all ins in ZvP it seems ^^ last thing i can think of is building an retardedly high amount of spores. like literally 100-200. maybe that works?! You got a replay of a game like that? | ||
|
Nimix
France1809 Posts
| ||
|
Decendos
Germany1340 Posts
On January 05 2013 23:30 Nimix wrote: Why would spores help against 15 or whatever range tempests >.< well lets say it this way. if he builds tempest your infestor corruptor combination gets stronger and he needs a lot of time to kill them. but it was only a suggestion because honestly i think right now you have just lost the game once he reaches 170+ supply of air which is pretty easy doable at the 20 min mark. | ||
|
brudnychuj
9 Posts
| ||
|
Innovation
United States284 Posts
whats the point of building tempests? i mean, maybe 3-4 in skytoss + templars compositions are okay, but they do very little dps unless fighting massive air units. they mainly counter colossi, broodlords and battlecruisers - two of them air antiground and bc are well, easy to deal with i guess because i have yet to see them in hots beta (nearly 400 games played) Upgraded tempests do quite well against mech or against casters. They allow the toss to micro their army so that Templar, infestor, ghost, science vessel, viper, are completely useless because they cannot get in range. it forces you to bring your whole army with you to cast anything which means you're taking damage while they keep microing back. In the case of zerg they don't even need to...because we just melt in about 2 - 3 seconds. | ||
|
Sissors
1395 Posts
Pre-emptively some responses: "You shouldnt let him get there" 1. That is not an answer how to counter it, and is not relevant. 2. HotS heavily boosted toss early game, so that is not an option. Then I think this will start to look like WoL PvZ: You got one small window in mid game to make a push, and before that you cant do anything, and after that window you lost. "You are more mobile, attack where he isnt with your army" 1. Since I cant teleport over the map, and he can, I would say he is more mobile. 2. Actually he forgot to take his MsC with him, so this case he couldnt teleport. But the result? I sack his main + natural, he sacks my main + natural, his army is still superior. Oh he had 1/1/0 while I had 3/1 and later 3/2 on bio. Considering how hard carriers need attack upgrades he would have had an even stronger army if he would have gotten them. | ||
|
SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On January 06 2013 01:32 Sissors wrote: So I just ran into a similar combo as terran. Colossi + toss air (so carrier, pest, void and oracle). I just pumped out pure marines and vikings, and never came close to winning. How to counter it? Pre-emptively some responses: "You shouldnt let him get there" 1. That is not an answer how to counter it, and is not relevant. 2. HotS heavily boosted toss early game, so that is not an option. Then I think this will start to look like WoL PvZ: You got one small window in mid game to make a push, and before that you cant do anything, and after that window you lost. "You are more mobile, attack where he isnt with your army" 1. Since I cant teleport over the map, and he can, I would say he is more mobile. 2. Actually he forgot to take his MsC with him, so this case he couldnt teleport. But the result? I sack his main + natural, he sacks my main + natural, his army is still superior. Oh he had 1/1/0 while I had 3/1 and later 3/2 on bio. Considering how hard carriers need attack upgrades he would have had an even stronger army if he would have gotten them. do you have a replay?.....cuz he had carrier, tempest, oracles, voids AND colossi? what where you doing for the first 20 minutes of the game? Thats a ton of gas. Was the protoss on 5 bases while you where on 3? Sorry to say but from what your describing and without a replay best we can do is tell you that you where outplayed | ||
|
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
Especially, when you take into account, that Terran builds and remaxes the slowest. | ||
|
padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On January 06 2013 02:07 Everlong wrote: I wish there was at least once this "when he gets to X/X/X, it is really, really, really hard to beat it" for Terran.. Especially, when you take into account, that Terran builds and remaxes the slowest. Yeah...something about battlecruisers | ||
|
brudnychuj
9 Posts
but yeah, in some super-late scenario you could switch and mass warp ground units too but then again, terran has like 30-40 more army value in longest games thanks to mules | ||
|
convention
United States622 Posts
On January 06 2013 02:07 Everlong wrote: I wish there was at least once this "when he gets to X/X/X, it is really, really, really hard to beat it" for Terran.. Especially, when you take into account, that Terran builds and remaxes the slowest. There is one in WoL; Ghost/BC against protoss. There is no way to stop it. For a good example, watch MVP v Squirtle GSL finals game 6. MVP is walking all over squirtle untill he makes a horrible mistake and gets his BCs archon toileted, which never should have happened with yamato/emp (MVP even says that after the game, that he played horribly to lose with that composition). I still suspect that ghost/BC will be almost impossible to beat in HotS as well. If you get this composition up, then you also have tens of spare OCs, which means you can spam scans picking off observers, so sniping HT will be pretty easy unless they retreat to a base. In which case, you can move in with BCs to yamato the army/nexus. | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Britney Dota 2  18164Calm  4201Rain 2794BeSt 1710Bisu 1678EffOrt 566Mind  469Shuttle 401firebathero 330Leta 261[ Show more ] Counter-Strike Super Smash Bros Other Games gofns20155 tarik_tv10610 singsing1955 DeMusliM343 B2W.Neo302 crisheroes301 NeuroSwarm58 ArmadaUGS46 ToD34 ZerO(Twitch)11 |
|
Online Event
Online Event
[BSL 2025] Weekly
Safe House 2
Sparkling Tuna Cup
BSL Team Wars
Team Bonyth vs Team Dewalt
Dewalt vs kogeT
JDConan vs Tarson
RaNgeD vs DragOn
StRyKeR vs Bonyth
Aeternum vs Hejek
Replay Cast
The PondCast
|
|
|
EPT
