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The real threat doesn't come from just how powerful the units are, the biggest threat comes from how by having MsC and a strong air harassment unit, it shortened any time gap to get to the well upgraded air units.
An air heavy deathball is the strongest deathball in all Matchups.
Terran has it's viking raven thor tank and BCs
Zerg has bl infestor corruptors queens
Protoss in Wol, had mothership archon toilet
It wasn't too surprising to see Protoss getting a strong air heavy deathball itself since the wol deathball is way weaker than the other two if vortex is not landed and it wasn't really an air focused deathball.
But the problem is the easy transition making air heavy possible means that it can reach the ultimate deathball much earlier.
It's almost like TvZ where the zerg do those 12 min hive rush build and it is upto terran to kill the zerg or cripple it so hard that it won't have any nice broodlord counts.
but one thing that is different, Protoss has harassment available as well as a MsC to deal with any timing push. In a TvZ way, it would be like Zerg having a way to get muta as well as broodlords at the same time.
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The problem is that voidrays are a hard counter to corrupters, Zerg's dedicated AA.
Given that Voidrays also double as harass, how phoenix shut down mutas, and how tempest / HT fry Hydralisks where they stand, there isn't a build that the Zerg has which can fight on equal (or remotely comparable) footing.
Protoss's defensive capabilities let it take three bases very early on, and once the 4th is secured the game effectively ends.
Skytoss needs to be effectively nerfed as a composition.
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On January 11 2013 11:55 ThomasHobbes wrote:
The problem is that voidrays are a hard counter to corrupters, Zerg's dedicated AA.
Given that Voidrays also double as harass, how phoenix shut down mutas, and how tempest / HT fry Hydralisks where they stand, there isn't a build that the Zerg has which can fight on equal (or remotely comparable) footing.
Protoss's defensive capabilities let it take three bases very early on, and once the 4th is secured the game effectively ends.
Skytoss needs to be effectively nerfed as a composition.
That or give Hydras maybe a buff in AA.
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On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now.
LOL there we go! Sing it out.
SING IT OUT!
Yeah it sounds extremely broken. But for those of you who are arguing that it's impossible resource wise, time is NOT a constraint. It is a BENEFIT. The Protoss can afford to draw the game out as MUCH as possible with millions of photon cannons everywhere, observers spread out to catch where you're going, etc. I think there's still problems with how to get there and aggressive Zergs will perform the best against the composition, but yes - it's the best deathball. Period.
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On January 11 2013 12:17 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together.
The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now. LOL there we go! Sing it out. SING IT OUT! Yeah it sounds extremely broken. But for those of you who are arguing that it's impossible resource wise, time is NOT a constraint. It is a BENEFIT. The Protoss can afford to draw the game out as MUCH as possible with millions of photon cannons everywhere, observers spread out to catch where you're going, etc. I think there's still problems with how to get there and aggressive Zergs will perform the best against the composition, but yes - it's the best deathball. Period.
EXACTLY. This new air toss is completly broken in zvp at the moment. Cannons and tempest are TOO easy to sit on and defend forever while slowly taking bases and massing up mass carrier tempest voidray templar. It's literally a joke how easy protoss has become, why do they benefit from playing like down syndrome players? even in mid-high masters they never use chrono boost, have terrible engagements and literally do nothing the entire game. it's starting to feel like terran and protoss and just meant to turtle up and become unstoppable while zergs are just left to TRY and do some damage against them. not to mention the maps are so stupid in HotS that yo can put your army in between 2 of your bases and it pretty much lets you defend 4 FUCKING BASES, how is that fair? especially when tempest has 15 range?
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Thing is, for zerg in WoL, at least you have timings in which zerg is weak. Especially just before getting broods, a large PvZ timing is possible. In HotS, the toss can slowly and steadily build up their imba army while sitting behind cannons and their long range units (like the tempest). It's like if Zerg could start adding broods and infestors all game long, without having to 'survive' during a certain period (2 base all in / 3 base all in).
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Like insanely gas heavy units are cheap, right.
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Remove Battlecuiser energy so that we might see epic air battles at the very lategame pvt. ^^
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Ultra / queens / corruptor / infestor
Retreat while he activate the VR ability, then come back and heal the corruptors :D (ultras are here to clean all ground army quickly and even if you lose fight, if you are attacking they can destroy ennemy bases while void rays are killing your corruptor/hydra). Works pretty well. Ofc the infestors are here so he can't hit and run to defend his bases 
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On January 20 2013 23:04 Mahanaim wrote:
Like insanely gas heavy units are cheap, right.
Ah, like infestor-broodlord? You're right, nobody ever complained about those although they're expensive as hell.
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Templar Voidray Tempest, plays like a stronger version of Broodlord Infestor. The good thing is while Zerg has nothing to engange it. They have the means to go wild on expansion and be everywhere the composition is not. And as soon as this composition moves out you can start to bite of parts and finally stop it before it reaches you. I usually open Muta against this and transition depending on how they react to Mutas. Usually it is impossible for them to reach Voidray Tempest Templar and if they try it you have taken the whole map by then.
And then they have quiet a task in front of them with their deathball that cannot split. Usually I do alot of harassment against the toss. But if I wanna fight the deathball I wait till they enter creep and lock them with Fungal and if they clump it is over because of Fungal range 11 (HT movement speed towards you + travel time of the ball + natural range of the skill) vs feedback range 9.
If they don't clump, once locked down you can move in with spores and queens and force a fight yourself. I usually don't engange below 220 supply though.
Aside from that I love the, unless on creep, unbeatable deathball of the Protoss. Gives you alot of BW feeling as Zerg. Though it would be interesting if an actually combat unit would work against Airtoss. Hydra and Muta do really well if you know what you are doing, but they are quiet costly and not as easy to replace. And to wear down storm energy you need something like this. On the other hand Ling Roach can basically run into the composition and kill all the hts, but I guess you need to be ahead for that sort of resource wasting.
I personally consider spores combat units though, with their 400 hp and 1 armor they can easily run under air units and the 6 seconds burrow isn't that much of an issue, especially if you have Fungal.
It is a brandnew lategame situation for every side and they are not done tweaking this (HotS units will also see a phase of tweaking after they are fine with WoL units) So it will take a while to get used to it and figure it out. Especially if Zerg is in I got to end this fast mentality.
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I'm not bothered that deathballs exist, but the value to supply cost of Tempests do trouble me a little for the 200/200 engagements. Quick note: these are calculations as I don't have a HotS beta key yet, but...
In WoL people complain about brood lords. If you have an equal supply amount of Stalkers (not even equal cost) you can blink under unsupported brood lords and kill them. Running calculations on the stats of Tempests, I'm not sure stalkers can even do that (Stalkers and Tempests have about the same DPS against each other, but Tempests have about triple the HP of Stalkers; in a 2:1 ratio equal supply fight, that will be close).
By my calculations, an equal supply fight between vikings and Tempests will also be close. (Once again a 2:1 ratio. Tempests with almost 4x the HP, and a relevant amount of armor, against only slightly more DPS).
Stalkers and Vikings are units that logically should counter tempests in a maxed out situation, but...apparently it's a pretty even trade supply-wise. That is very scary for a brood lord esque unit. At least brood lords had clear counters, especially unsupported.
Granted yes, corruptors have an advantage because they deal bonus damage. But it's still not crushing or anything. (Corruptors and Tempests deal about the same DPS to each other. Just...Tempests only have 2.3x as much HP, which means in a 2v1, one corruptor should live with half HP or so). So like...that's one unit that kills completely unsupported tempests.
Speaking of corruptors, you know how they are specialists against air massive? Well...for the same cost as two corruptors, Tempests are better in every way against air massive targets (25 DPS instead of 21 DPS. 450 HP instead of 400 total HP split across two bodies. 15 range instead of 6). So...while Tempests lose the heads up fight with Corruptors, they still make Corruptors look like garbage.
But like...is that it? Are corruptors the only solo unit that gets a better-than-even trade with an equal supply group of Tempests? (Although granted, I guess Terran has PDDs; so both other races at least have answers).
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Tempests should be 6 supply like other capital ships, and Voids should lose extended leash range (they'll still be plenty strong without it). That alone would go a ways to giving opponents more micro options against Toss and reducing the power of the skytoss deathball.
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On January 04 2013 08:51 Avalain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 07:12 TheSambassador wrote:On January 04 2013 07:00 Tuczniak wrote:
I dont understand why voidrays kill corruptors per supply and even per cost, when corruptor is dedicated AA and voidray both AA and AT. Void rays are significantly more costly (250/150 vs 150/100). One Void Ray SHOULD beat one corruptor. You should probably read that again. He's not complaining that void rays beat corruptors 1v1. He's complaining that void rays beat corruptors at an even resource cost. And yes, the reason for this is because they are trying to make it so that mutas beat void rays and corruptors beat phoenix. Another reason is that it's not good if corruptors can beat every other air unit.
let voidrays be turn into broodlords then i am as well ok with a nerv ... damn all this whine threads are annoying
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this whole late game mess could be solved by nerfing the mothership core's early game defensive abilities. it single handedly stops any kind of pressure you could hope for against someone playing greedy.
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On February 14 2013 11:49 metroid composite wrote:
I'm not bothered that deathballs exist, but the value to supply cost of Tempests do trouble me a little for the 200/200 engagements. Quick note: these are calculations as I don't have a HotS beta key yet, but...
In WoL people complain about brood lords. If you have an equal supply amount of Stalkers (not even equal cost) you can blink under unsupported brood lords and kill them. Running calculations on the stats of Tempests, I'm not sure stalkers can even do that (Stalkers and Tempests have about the same DPS against each other, but Tempests have about triple the HP of Stalkers; in a 2:1 ratio equal supply fight, that will be close).
By my calculations, an equal supply fight between vikings and Tempests will also be close. (Once again a 2:1 ratio. Tempests with almost 4x the HP, and a relevant amount of armor, against only slightly more DPS).
Stalkers and Vikings are units that logically should counter tempests in a maxed out situation, but...apparently it's a pretty even trade supply-wise. That is very scary for a brood lord esque unit. At least brood lords had clear counters, especially unsupported.
Granted yes, corruptors have an advantage because they deal bonus damage. But it's still not crushing or anything. (Corruptors and Tempests deal about the same DPS to each other. Just...Tempests only have 2.3x as much HP, which means in a 2v1, one corruptor should live with half HP or so). So like...that's one unit that kills completely unsupported tempests.
Speaking of corruptors, you know how they are specialists against air massive? Well...for the same cost as two corruptors, Tempests are better in every way against air massive targets (25 DPS instead of 21 DPS. 450 HP instead of 400 total HP split across two bodies. 15 range instead of 6). So...while Tempests lose the heads up fight with Corruptors, they still make Corruptors look like garbage.
But like...is that it? Are corruptors the only solo unit that gets a better-than-even trade with an equal supply group of Tempests? (Although granted, I guess Terran has PDDs; so both other races at least have answers).
Marines rape tempest. Hydras (assuming you can get to the tempest). Void rays rape them.
Not to mention - Cannons aren't stopping a 12min roach max.
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Ultra late game Protoss air is very strong. However, there are a lot of timings that protoss is vulnerable to while trying to achieve the airtoss army. I played a PvT about an hour ago and used the army the OP describes. Thor Viking does very well against it actually. It requires protoss to split every single engagement, however every time P moves, their units all clump up. I ended up winning eventually by attrition, but my army was Voidray/immortal/tempest/chargelot. If you'd like the replay I can upload it for you.
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Wait so your complaing about balance in a game that you haven't actually played yet?
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I've been going ling/bane/ultra against this skytoss thing because there really isn't any way too deal with the army, against terran you can build 100 spores and pull hes BC's in with vipers one by one, keep denying bases and wait for him to mine out but with the tempest this doesn't work at all. Ultras and lings are really good at killing buildings so it works really well. If you wait too long though and the death-ball builds up and they get storm there's just no way to kill them at all, if you try and base-race when they move out they usually just recall back.
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On January 04 2013 06:34 Existor wrote:
Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms.
I agree with this 100%, in WOL protoss was the one that had to commit to an engagement due to the range advantage of brood lords. Now that protoss has the temptest, Protoss has the range advantage and zerg is forced to commit with their anti air, usually corruptors, which unless split (corruptors tend to stack when focusing units) get dominated by storm.
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EPT
