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On February 15 2013 21:50 Baum wrote:
What's the point of going mech when you can't fight a Protoss air army at all?
Due to the fact that Hellbats lol all over all Protoss ground units at an absolutely absurd cost effectiveness, if Mech even got a mediocre air counter there'd be no beating it. You could go pure ground against a Terran that completely failed to scout it and went mass anti-air and the Hellbats would still completely slaughter everything. There's NOTHING Protoss has that can even touch them that's not air. Zealots melt, Stalkers and Immortals have no DPS, Colossi are outranged by Thors and Tanks and also have no DPS due to the large size of the Hellbat. (they can only hit 2 Hellbats at once with the linear splash) The large size and long range of mech units also makes HTs ineffective. Archons do have bonus to bio but at 300 gas they're still not effective at all against 100 mineral hellbats.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 15 2013 21:52 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures.
It's much, much, much harder. We don't have chronoboost .
Archons do have bonus to bio but at 300 gas they're still not effective at all against 100 mineral hellbats.
Have you even played the game? Archons destroy hellbats.
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On February 15 2013 21:52 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures.
No its not comparable, air units are generally complimentary and if you add stargate tech to robo tech, you still have gateway/robo units as the "meat" of your army. Starport units as terran are similar, but protoss (or zerg for that matter) don't have a divide comparable to bio vs mech.
If you still disagree, please correct me by showing me a couple of competitive games where terran starts off with mech but switches to bio. Thanks.
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On February 15 2013 21:52 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures.
Robo units and stargate units both are produced from a limited amount of infrastructure. For bio to be effective in the late game you have to have 6-8 barracks and a starport while before you were building mech units from 5 or more factories. So no a tech switch like this is not the same.
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They cost THREE HUNDRED GAS. You can kill 5 hellbats per archon lost and you're still trading badly.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 15 2013 22:00 Xequecal wrote:
They cost THREE HUNDRED GAS. You can kill 5 hellbats per archon lost and you're still trading badly.
Against mech you can get so many gas bases that that doesn't really matter does it?
Mech is supposed to be cost efficient. It takes so damn long to build, It's slow enough that you can't really punish mass expanding without getting destroyed and if you get caught out of position you just die. if it got beaten by every toss army like it did in WoL then nobody would ever play it.
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On February 15 2013 21:59 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:52 Xequecal wrote:On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures. Robo units and stargate units both are produced from a limited amount of infrastructure. For bio to be effective in the late game you have to have 6-8 barracks and a starport while before you were building mech units from 5 or more factories. So no a tech switch like this is not the same.
Yes, but having both Robo and Stargate units requires a number of tech buildings and functionality upgrades that Terran doesn't. The Armory doesn't count since you need it for both bio and mech. Mech in fact has no such upgrades required at all since blue flame was taken off Hellbats and siege tech was removed. To switch from Stargate to Robo Protoss has to build say 2 Robos, make a Robotics Support Bay, and research Colossus range, which is the same price as six Factories.
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You are comparing two very different things. You are supposed to get air upgrades while playing bio and while playing mech if you switch between the two you have to also get ground mech upgrades or ground bio upgrades. There is no realistic scenario in which you start building marines to counter Protoss air in the lategame after you started with mech. Just because siege and blueflame are gone doesn't mean you suddenly can start doing that. Robo units are used as support for gateway units while mech and bio usually are compositions on their own. I am not sure why you keep insisting on your point when there is no actual evidence of it happening at all.
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On February 15 2013 22:07 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:59 Baum wrote:On February 15 2013 21:52 Xequecal wrote:On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures. Robo units and stargate units both are produced from a limited amount of infrastructure. For bio to be effective in the late game you have to have 6-8 barracks and a starport while before you were building mech units from 5 or more factories. So no a tech switch like this is not the same. Yes, but having both Robo and Stargate units requires a number of tech buildings and functionality upgrades that Terran doesn't. The Armory doesn't count since you need it for both bio and mech. Mech in fact has no such upgrades required at all since blue flame was taken off Hellbats and siege tech was removed. To switch from Stargate to Robo Protoss has to build say 2 Robos, make a Robotics Support Bay, and research Colossus range, which is the same price as six Factories.
Your lack of experience is showing.
Not only are they gross generalizations, but mistaken ones coming from poor play.
Why not learn how to play before commenting?
Can you even do a 7:30min marine/medivac drop timing attack into tank +mass marine mid-game push?
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I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it.
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On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it.
Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine storms with time warps and watch as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals and zealots.
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On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals.
Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting.
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While on paper this seems like an incredibly OP composition, we should wait for more games at the highest level before making any conclusions, at least until GSTL starts tomorrow and more MLG matches. The main question we need to ask as we watch these games is, "can the composition be feasibly achieved?"
If the answer to that question is clearly "yes" then we can began to theory craft solutions.
Personally I'd suggest either making the tempest a ground unit like OP said or severely reducing its range while increasing its vs air dps
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I agree. The Tempest will likely need some kind of nerf.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 16 2013 03:04 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals. Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting.
The more and more you post, the less and less likely it seems you've actually played the game. Collosus can hit hellbats who are too far forward without being hit by tanks, completely for free. They also hit way more than 2 of them unless they're spread.
What you've said about storm also is completely wrong, well placed storms against hellbats will hit atleast 6 from my experience. Also stalkers and Immortals do low damage to hellbats, but guess what. They both have higher range and can kite hellbats if you bait them away from the tanks.
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It's not broken. Also hard to get for P to get this complete compo if you attack frequently. Swarm host is a good unit. Making those forces protoss to warp any units they can make. Killing half of the Air toss in an engagement is good already when Zerg can remax in no time, but replacing those VR's ,Tempests lost . Goodluck on that.
If P had managed to get this complete compo (PvZ), maybe Protoss deserved the win lol.
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My biggest gripe with Protoss isn't the deathball itself but the mothership core. A bunch of slow moving Void Rays, Tempests, HTs, and Tempests on a big map? No problem time to do multi pronged drops/attacks and snipe tech stru-oh SNAP recall!
Also thanks to the mothership core, I've yet to find a timing before 9 minutes that allows Zerg to break Protoss FFE due to Nexus Cannon.
Make Protoss more vulnerable and force them to play safer in the early mid game, and the air deathball won't be a huge problem like it is. I honestly have no problem with the deathball being near unstoppable against Zerg but at least make it so Zerg can actually pressure Protoss reliably in the early mid game because Nexus Cannon is straight bullshit early game.
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On February 15 2013 21:57 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 21:52 Xequecal wrote:On February 15 2013 21:49 Bagi wrote:
So mech should never be viable, period? Switching between mech and bio just isn't viable with how terran techpaths work. It's not any harder than Protoss switching between Stargate and Robo tech. They also have completely seperate upgrades and production structures. It's much, much, much harder. We don't have chronoboost . Show nested quote +Archons do have bonus to bio but at 300 gas they're still not effective at all against 100 mineral hellbats. Have you even played the game? Archons destroy hellbats.
Gonna throw it out there. Blizz nerfed the shit out of chrono so that we get things at a decent time... not an especially quick one 
This complaint seems silly considering how much gas it requires and how Toss map control works.
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I don't see how well micro'd, Marine Heavy MMMVG can't beat Tempest/Void/Carrier/Templar with a 2-2 timing, or even just constant attacks after maxing over and over.
The lack of AoE besides psi storms really hurts the Protoss' ability to deny the Ghosts from getting all the EMP's they need on the Templar, plus the Bio doesn't need to spread or kite aside from making a concave unless some Templar get some good psi storms off on the Bio, which is very difficult with scans, snipes, and EMP's.
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On February 16 2013 08:10 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 03:04 Xequecal wrote:On February 16 2013 02:47 Novacute wrote:On February 16 2013 02:38 Xequecal wrote:
I play Protoss not Terran. I realize there may be things I'm missing that make transitioning from bio to mech impossible, but I know I would never, ever, ever win a game against mech Terran if they nerfed Tempest range to 10. It's just completely invincible on the ground, you need to throw triple the supply or resources to break hellbats supported by basically anything. You'd be forced to try to cheese out wins with blink stalkers and warp prism harass because you could never ever fight the actual army. The assertions of "you die if you get caught out of position!" are just wrong too, you can a-move unsieged into any Protoss ground army with hellbat/tank/thor/medivac and easily kill it. Hellbats are not some sort of godlike tank unit. Combine with storms with time warps and watch the as the T's buffer melt away without ever losing anything outside of energy. Caught a Terran out of position? Storms with timewarp work even better. Then, simply kill tanks with your immortals. Yeah, they actually are sort of a godlike tank unit. Their large size makes storms extremely ineffective, it is very difficult to hit more than 3 hellbats with a storm. Also you have no real DPS backing up your storm damage since your Zealots will explode in about two seconds. Stalkers and Immortals do a pathetic 7/14 DPS to Hellbats, and Colossi only hit two hellbats at once with their splash attack, making them extremely ineffective for their cost. Attacking mech on the ground simply doesn't work. Timewarp is totally irrelevant against an army that's not kiting. The more and more you post, the less and less likely it seems you've actually played the game. Collosus can hit hellbats who are too far forward without being hit by tanks, completely for free. They also hit way more than 2 of them unless they're spread. What you've said about storm also is completely wrong, well placed storms against hellbats will hit atleast 6 from my experience. Also stalkers and Immortals do low damage to hellbats, but guess what. They both have higher range and can kite hellbats if you bait them away from the tanks.
It's funny how u say others have not played the game while u didnt play it yourself.
Mass siege tank + hellbat can be actually a-moved vs any kind of toss ground army. Before stalkers or even mighty immortals kill anything, any moderately good terran will have withdrawn his hellbats back to tanks.
And seriously, if u're so fucking good, please post your replays and make your arguments worth a penny. You know, it's easy to call somebody stupid, especially when you're stupid yourself.
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EPT
