EPTTemplar Voidray Tempest - Page 12
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
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Vlare
748 Posts
On February 17 2013 02:56 Novacute wrote: Can we get some actual replays of this? Xequecal, since you seem know how strong hellbats are in TvP, i'm sure you'll have plenty of replays or seen pro streams of it? Use dropbox if possible. What do you want a replay of? Air vs Mech? I can upload one if you like. But it's a very slow/boring game. | ||
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TomatoShark
United States288 Posts
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On February 17 2013 03:30 Xequecal wrote: Well no, I can't, since the Tempest does exist at 15 range, and I've been using that. The entire discussion is based on my opinion that mech would be completely overpowered if the Tempest were to be nerfed down to something like 10 range. Definitely not true. Mech already loses on the ground because of Immortals; even if you emp them they still cost effectively destroy tank lines without any needing any micro. | ||
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ProfessionalNoob
United States75 Posts
On February 15 2013 22:01 Qikz wrote: Against mech you can get so many gas bases that that doesn't really matter does it? Mech is supposed to be cost efficient. It takes so damn long to build, It's slow enough that you can't really punish mass expanding without getting destroyed and if you get caught out of position you just die. if it got beaten by every toss army like it did in WoL then nobody would ever play it. yes, because archers and immortals are incredibly easy to mas.....;-; | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Definitely not true. Mech already loses on the ground because of Immortals; even if you emp them they still cost effectively destroy tank lines without any needing any micro. Immortals can't get anywhere near Tanks if you position your Hellbats well in front--Immortal dps vs Hellbats is awful and can't punch through them at all when they've got even a little Medivac support. That gives more than enough time to EMP and destroy them with tank fire (widow mines can work as well since they deal spell damage). Hellbats are crazy good tank units vs. the ground units normally used against tanks like zealots and immortals. Honestly, well-positioned tanks in the back with Hellbats and Mines in front is virtually impossible for any Protoss ground army to punch through. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
Bam. | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
On February 17 2013 13:47 Whitewing wrote: Nuke the cannons, use vikings and a raven (or scans) to prevent an observer or an oracle from spotting the ghost. Cannons are gone, scan to deal with detection, ghosts in, wipe out high templar, vikings engage. Bam. Mass Expand. Simultaneous zergling drops at mains and expos to take out economy/production. Burrow zerglings all over the map to know where airtoss is. 360 degree flank with infestor fungal to hold army, mass hydras surround engage. Bam. | ||
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LiLSighKoh
United States588 Posts
He went for a composition like that, just mixed in a ground army though. My composition was just soley marine medivac ghost and a couple of marauders for kiting. Sniped off most of his observers, and then emped his clumped up army. Even if he spread and had good HT control i'm sure my ghost would've emped/sniped his HT and continue to roll over his units. Maybe good control with marine medivac ghost could be an answer to tempest/voidray/HT? Then again i only played one game against a composition some-what like that. | ||
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
On February 16 2013 22:31 rpgalon wrote: I still think the ultimate deathball is mass ravens and the HotS raven supply should be 3.... I can't wait for people to discover a safe way to go mass raven, the QQ is going to be amazing. Anyway, templar voidray tempest is overhyped, I almost never see it in my laddering or pro streams, that should not be the case if it were "that good", for example, like Blood/infestor in WoL where you see it in.... every match that goes past early game. And yet when you do see it the zerg always loses, even in the pro streams. I've yet to see or hear of a pro zerg being able to beat this composition, although I believe when toss do get it they often get carriers with it. And no Blood/infestor was always as strong as it is now and yet we never saw it in early WOL. The same could be said for this composition. | ||
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Stingart
122 Posts
On February 17 2013 20:59 Disastorm wrote: And yet when you do see it the zerg always loses, even in the pro streams. I've yet to see or hear of a pro zerg being able to beat this composition, although I believe when toss do get it they often get carriers with it. And no Blood/infestor was always as strong as it is now and yet we never saw it in early WOL. The same could be said for this composition. No, it has been nerfed in HOTS, a lot with direct nerfs and indirectly with the new units. | ||
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cerebralz
United States443 Posts
Once is actually was able to kill the skytoss army, but i used easily 3x the resources then had only corruptors left, not anything i could do damage with. What could i do then except wait to build up an army to deal with his mass cannoning at all his bases, then lose it all to the next skytoss army, this time with carriers. Currently, i just try to kill the Protoss on 2 base and if not, gg. There is no combination or permutation of zerg units that can deal with this lategame. | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On February 17 2013 23:47 cerebralz wrote: To me the problem is this: If the Protoss mass expands, the "normal" zerg response is to expand more and faster. That's all well and good, but if you leave the P alone while your doing your "faster mass expanding" you get rolled by this composition and it doesn't matter how many armies you can make to send against it, it is unkillable. Once is actually was able to kill the skytoss army, but i used easily 3x the resources then had only corruptors left, not anything i could do damage with. What could i do then except wait to build up an army to deal with his mass cannoning at all his bases, then lose it all to the next skytoss army, this time with carriers. Currently, i just try to kill the Protoss on 2 base and if not, gg. There is no combination or permutation of zerg units that can deal with this lategame. I found that three base roach/hydra with +1 missile all in deals reasonably well against Protoss at around 14 mins. Without robo, they lack any real stopping power against the swarm or roaches. Also, keep your hydras alive and in the back as a deterrent against voidrays. However, there is one problem, this approach works well in certain maps like star station. Maps like akilon wastes puts my build to shame because the narrow choke requires less forcefields and minimises the arc of attack. If killing protoss is not an option before late game, preemptive double spire and focus on missile attacks alongside viper tech is my ultimate goal. The typical army composition is around 50 supply of hydras, and 4-5 vipers for pulling any collossi, with around 18 corruptors or so. At this point, my eco is quite low, so fighting well is a must in this situation. This typical comp does well against most types of air protoss with even trades from what i've seen in my replays, however, air compositions with carriers instead of tempests and HTs instead of collossi are very very very cost efficient against my said army. I'm not sure how to deal with such a build, hopefully something will be changed to make zerg anti air better specifically against air protoss. I have considered neural parasite as an option, but with HT's there's too much risk involved. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 17 2013 22:29 Stingart wrote: No, it has been nerfed in HOTS, a lot with direct nerfs and indirectly with the new units. Broodlord infestor certainly isn't that strong anymore, but Broodlord corrupter is still horrible to deal with as mech. Corrupters are really strong vs vikings. Not that that's really too much of an issue as it forces thors/turrets/mines too, against toss I think it's probably much weaker, but against skytoss you probably wouldn't want broodlords anyways. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 17 2013 18:16 Rucky wrote: Mass Expand. Simultaneous zergling drops at mains and expos to take out economy/production. Burrow zerglings all over the map to know where airtoss is. 360 degree flank with infestor fungal to hold army, mass hydras surround engage. Bam. Awwww yus. Seriously, the idea that this is completely unbreakable no matter what is kind of silly. | ||
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Stingart
122 Posts
On February 18 2013 03:59 Qikz wrote: Broodlord infestor certainly isn't that strong anymore, but Broodlord corrupter is still horrible to deal with as mech. Corrupters are really strong vs vikings. Not that that's really too much of an issue as it forces thors/turrets/mines too, against toss I think it's probably much weaker, but against skytoss you probably wouldn't want broodlords anyways. I think that beating curropter + BL is super easy without infestors. You can 1A with 4 PDD's from 2 ravens or you can easily kite, because no fungel means you can move freely. If you're really good then you can press a little button on the thor which makes its AA stronger v curropters and broods. | ||
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EGLzGaMeR
United States1867 Posts
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
Increase Thor single-target mode range to 13. Give hydras a Hive upgrade to life (and give them 6 range by default while you're at it, 3 upgrades on one unit is silly). And finally, make it so air units, or perhaps MASSIVE air units don't stack, so the air deathball occupies a much greater volume. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 20 2013 07:26 Empirimancer wrote: Reduce Tempest range to 13. Increase Thor single-target mode range to 13. Give hydras a Hive upgrade to life (and give them 6 range by default while you're at it, 3 upgrades on one unit is silly). And finally, make it so air units, or perhaps MASSIVE air units don't stack, so the air deathball occupies a much greater volume. Massive air units stacking is pretty much the only way broodlords and carriers can be countered by Splash. HSM is so useful against broodlords purely for the splash and carrier stacking is one of the best ways to micro them, so that's not a brilliant change in my opinion at least. If anything I'd make air units stack more so they get hard countered more by AOE. | ||
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