EPTHaving said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off.
Templar Voidray Tempest - Page 3
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote: This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful. Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS. | ||
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iKill
Denmark861 Posts
On January 04 2013 15:51 BronzeKnee wrote: Void Rays were my favorite unit in WOL. They were so strong in the hands of good player. But in HOTS, everyone builds them. They dominate PvP and ZvP. The fact they chew through Stalkers so easily has made the only counter to Void Rays is Void Rays. Beginning to hate Protoss in HOTS. So I guess you could say void rays are the new colossus? | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6232 Posts
On January 04 2013 16:19 iKill wrote: So I guess you could say void rays are the new colossus? Colossus in small numbers was totally manageable with twilight/archon tech, or a bunch of gateway and heavy immortal. They were still a scourge upon the mirror, but they weren't utterly hilarious until quite late in the game. Vrays, on the other hand, roflol all over the one toss ground unit which can act as AA, and do so the moment they appear. New voids really are kind of crazy in PvP. I suspect it might be possible to mondragon underneath them with zealot/archon, but I haven't seen it done yet. | ||
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iKill
Denmark861 Posts
On January 04 2013 16:55 Belisarius wrote: Colossus in small numbers was totally manageable with twilight/archon tech, or a bunch of gateway and heavy immortal. They were still a scourge upon the mirror, but they weren't utterly hilarious until quite late in the game. Vrays, on the other hand, roflol all over the one toss ground unit which can act as AA, and do so the moment they appear. New voids really are kind of crazy in PvP. I suspect it might be possible to mondragon underneath them with zealot/archon, but I haven't seen it done yet. To be fair, in all the games I've seen with early voids in PvP, the voids get focus fired fairly quickly and don't really do too much damage. Would like to see some reps where the void player straight up rolls a blink player in an even supply / cost fight. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Because once my opponent went over 5 colossus they usually had no chance to win a fight against added in Voidrays. But master level is to far away from pro players build perfection, to say it would work there. As for HotS Christmas break it seems, there is no doubt they will tweak recently changed units, so it becomes more fair. But it is sad that the Voidray will become an easy to use unit. I had high hopes that people would figure out ways to charge them really easily. But I guess to much attention needed at the highest level to do so. | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On January 04 2013 06:34 Existor wrote: Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms. Correction: Terrans in lategame cannot either. Tempests are too supply efficient for a unit that's meant to be used sparingly. The game right now in lategame for Protosses that can turtle that far becomes worse than brood + infestor, it's tempest + templar. You guys remember tempests were 6 supply at the start of beta? Yeah...that needs to happen again. Hell even 8 at this point, the unit is ridiculously broken in late game in every match-up (includes PvP). And for people making ridiculous arguments "that's a lot of gas it should be powerful!" Um, no. No race in the game should have a lategame army that is nigh unbeatable. And if they do, the other races should have an equally accessible counter-option. Zerg has no option against this lategame. Terran's only option is "mass vikings" which is not really an "option" either. | ||
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
On January 04 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote: Sounds, looks and imagine that it is broken. You can't beat this composition as zerg unless the toss makes a huge huge huge mistake like move commanding his units or not bringing it all together. The WoL zvp that we have now is now reversed. Toss now gets the unkillable deathball. zvp is just as boring and crappy as wol except I imagine it'll be a bunch of zergs qq'ing about late game instead of toss now. Yes the deathball is a problem it seems like, but do you really feel zvp is boring and crappy in HotS? I enjoy it so much more, as it seems there are more viable options now other than bl infestor. I also feel like being a faster player shows in the outcome of games much more than it did for zergs in WoL. | ||
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
On January 04 2013 14:16 KrazyTrumpet wrote: This is a pretty powerful combo, but good lord just think about all the tech and gas that goes into an army like this. It SHOULD be really powerful. Having said that, however, I really think the buffs to Void Rays were too much. They really screw up PvP because they chew through Stalkers way too easily now, and they are also way too effective against Corruptors. It just feels like if I don't open air in PvP I just auto lose because of how good Void Rays are now, and I know Zerg players have to rage that Corruptors get wrecked so effortlessly. I like the idea of an activated ability instead of a charge up, I just think the numbers are way too off. I agree completely, but it shouldn't be unkillable. Even infestor BL wasn't unkillable with remaxing, and vortex of course. | ||
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BerthaG
France74 Posts
Seems overpowerfull, but still you can always make a compo countering another it is just how to scout and to react. that sc2. Just try to addapt your game and your compo instead of trying to copy paste the way you played in WOL. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On January 04 2013 12:56 blade55555 wrote: It's not that hard to get it, not anywhere near as hard as for terran to get his composition. Especially if you open up 2 stargate voidray to begin with (which is very, very powerful). PvZ: So it probably will come down to how reliably Zerg can put pressure on/do damage in the midgame; if it's not (easily) possible, we will end up in a situation reversed from WoL PvZ and that's shit. On the bright side (compared to WoL PvZ): 1) P (probably) can't turtle as well behind a wall of static defense like Zerg can because of the lack of creep, and the fact that cannons can't move. 2) Without anything like fungal defensively (i assume later in the game there won't be many sentries/oracles in play) it should be easy to retreat vs such a slow army. 3) P (probably) has other options (ground based army) to play a macro game, so (hopefully) there will be more variety in the matchup. I feel like if this promotes more active play (even if p is usually defensive) that's kinda fine. Also, it depends on how "invincible" the army is; if we are at the levels of infestor/broodlord then it needs fixing asap but maybe with some tweaks (for instance change corruption/corruptors) Zerg could trade efficiently enough that it won't be as big of a problem. No idea about how it works out in TvP. If it's something that's only available in super super lategame it's not as big of a problem. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
The reasons why Zerg can go BL/Infestor so easy are: Speedlings - Tons of map vision as well as a fast reaction to any sort of aggression (e.g. drops) Queens - Transfusion to keep buildings alive, high ranged AA attack and creep spread for more map vision and even faster Zerglings Spines and Spores - Zerg can Overdrone and when they need the supply the Drones gathered a lot of extra minerals that will be invested into (non)static defense. What do all of these things have in common? They cost minerals only! If Protoss wants a highly mobile group of units to react to drops that's gonna be Blink Stalkers. If Protoss wants map control in early to mid game they probably get DTs or Colossi. Photon Cannons can't move, that means Protoss has to push in waves of Cannons if they want them as described in the OP. Getting ten new Cannons every time you advance a little will cost a lot! Plus, you know, Fungal and Infested Terrans are 100% different from what Templars can do. I don't know if this unit combination is as good as people think it is. I know that Protoss will have a harder time getting there. Plus, I am pretty sure the Void Ray will get nerfed a bit. | ||
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
On January 04 2013 09:06 Habitus wrote: Wondering how you find Ravens useless, when PDD stops Tempest shots, doesn't stop Voidray beams, and doesn't block Storm, ie all its energy can stop the Tempest harass as the Vikings kite the Voidrays in 'theory' Honestly thou, until HotS is released and people really practice and try things and refine builds to hold all the old + new pressures/timings we won't know if transitioning in to this comp is even possible ie in 'theory' Ghost, Raven, Battlecrusier is incredible powerful for Terran, but nobody uses it as you just die in trying to transition. BC transition is just bad, because HT + Tempest is just eats it alive. Even you if land superduper EMPs, Tempest is just killing BC. HT just feedbacks the PDD, if you make too much Raven and Viking to hold the Tempest, Protoss just makes 20stalker and 10zealot on the ground and just rolls you. Have fun with TvP mech. | ||
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
On January 04 2013 20:09 rEalGuapo wrote: I can imagine this combination to be OP in a straight up fight, but I really doubt that it will come that far in competitive play. The reasons why Zerg can go BL/Infestor so easy are: Speedlings - Tons of map vision as well as a fast reaction to any sort of aggression (e.g. drops) Queens - Transfusion to keep buildings alive, high ranged AA attack and creep spread for more map vision and even faster Zerglings Spines and Spores - Zerg can Overdrone and when they need the supply the Drones gathered a lot of extra minerals that will be invested into (non)static defense. What do all of these things have in common? They cost minerals only! If Protoss wants a highly mobile group of units to react to drops that's gonna be Blink Stalkers. If Protoss wants map control in early to mid game they probably get DTs or Colossi. Photon Cannons can't move, that means Protoss has to push in waves of Cannons if they want them as described in the OP. Getting ten new Cannons every time you advance a little will cost a lot! Plus, you know, Fungal and Infested Terrans are 100% different from what Templars can do. I don't know if this unit combination is as good as people think it is. I know that Protoss will have a harder time getting there. Plus, I am pretty sure the Void Ray will get nerfed a bit. But you forget, that Tempest do shot in the air, and BL doesnot. So you dont need deadweight vikings and such. Just pure tempest and some HTs. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
Also both HT and Tempest suck in killing buildings fast. and how do you prevent any kind of Base Trade Scenario? | ||
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Decendos
Germany1340 Posts
On January 04 2013 20:56 freetgy wrote: While the composition sounds great in theory, it has the same weakness of BL/Infestor (immobility) Also both HT and Tempest suck in killing buildings fast. and how do you prevent any kind of Base Trade Scenario? the same way zerg defended in WoL. instead of mass spines + infestor you build mass cannons + HT. zerg will need BLs or MASS SH to attack into that which is a slow moving army itself. so yeah it is just OP right now and neither T nor Z can win against it. but its not a big deal since blizz will just patch it and its fine. oh and btw it doesnt only sound great in theory. a lot of P players use it because it works insanely well in practice. | ||
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E.L.V.I.S
Belgium458 Posts
On January 04 2013 06:34 Existor wrote: Right now Zergs can't beat maxed Protoss air with storms. It's hard I agree but there are many way to attack the protoss before he is maxed^^ | ||
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Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
On January 04 2013 18:26 avilo wrote: Correction: Terrans in lategame cannot either. Tempests are too supply efficient for a unit that's meant to be used sparingly. The game right now in lategame for Protosses that can turtle that far becomes worse than brood + infestor, it's tempest + templar. You guys remember tempests were 6 supply at the start of beta? Yeah...that needs to happen again. Hell even 8 at this point, the unit is ridiculously broken in late game in every match-up (includes PvP). And for people making ridiculous arguments "that's a lot of gas it should be powerful!" Um, no. No race in the game should have a lategame army that is nigh unbeatable. And if they do, the other races should have an equally accessible counter-option. Zerg has no option against this lategame. Terran's only option is "mass vikings" which is not really an "option" either. Wouldn't mass Thors be like a hard counter to that composition? Thors don't have energy anymore, are large units so storm isn't all that effective. And they can't be feedbacked anymore. Tempest doesn't do it's full damage against ground massive units (pitfull dps with huge overkill if they amassed them). | ||
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