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this would make the early game shenangins much easier to stop while still keep it powerful enough to control space and buffer your tank lines for those awesome BroodWar esque slow pushes.
To be honest I have never seen this done in sc2 EVER, and I don't think we will ever, because there is neither a need to do it, nor a benefit.
instead people just push across them map with everything and have some spotter units at the front and then just siege everything when they see the opponents deathball approaching.
Other than that I guess reducing the range a little bit would be fine.
However I don't think it's a good idea to give it very low hp, especially not in addition to less range.
After all it's still a 2 supply unit that either can't move or can't attack.
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On October 12 2012 14:30 Ai.Cola wrote:Show nested quote +this would make the early game shenangins much easier to stop while still keep it powerful enough to control space and buffer your tank lines for those awesome BroodWar esque slow pushes. To be honest I have never seen this done in sc2 EVER, and I don't think we will ever, because there is neither a need to do it, nor a benefit. instead people just push across them map with everything and have some spotter units at the front and then just siege everything when they see the opponents deathball approaching. Other than that I guess reducing the range a little bit would be fine. However I don't think it's a good idea to give it very low hp, especially not in addition to less range. After all it's still a 2 supply unit that either can't move or can't attack.
Thorzain did this and became the SPOON.
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Alright, lets define "broodwar style slowpush"
Thorzain uses mass marines mixed with tanks to "slowpush" across the map, but I assumed we were talking about broodwar mech against protoss, with turrets going up and minefields placed and then destroyed and slowly taking space on the map, pushing towards the protoss base.
this just doesn't happen and even thorzain probably pushes across half the map or more and then places his tanks and slowly moves some forward.
PS: What does it mean to "become the SPOON"?
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On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth.
You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope.
Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too.
The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it.
We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range.
Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable.
I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced.
So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it.
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On October 12 2012 12:09 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. So DT's should essentially be a useless investment in PvT because your opponent decided to play mech? Should the mines be able to deal with everything? If so, isn't that a freaking terrible game design? Why build turrets anymore, the mines will deal with DT's and kill air! If he goes phoenix, mines! VR? Mines! DT's? Mines! Heavy gateway attack? Make sure we've got some mines! You don't even need to scout at that point.
They aren't useless, there are these flying things called warp prisms that can allow you to drop them in your opponent's base. Also, you realize if you really want to do a game-ending type of DT build, you can bring a few units with you, even a probe or two, trigger the mines -> use DTS.
They are easily usable still, it's just now you won't get as many freewin games from DT usage, is that a problem for you?
You're acting like mines are literally everywhere on every point on the map, and that's simply not the case. Also, turrets are still built, just later on to build turret rings to deal with warp prisms.
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On October 12 2012 15:01 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth. You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope. Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too. The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it. We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range. Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable. I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced. So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it.
Sorry it's a bit retarded that the only zerg units that can kill a widow rocket are a hydra with range upgrade and swarmhosts, well broodlords to. Roaches can't, hydras have to have range upgrade so you can't even kill widow rockets unless you have swarm hosts.
I know you think widow mines are fine (which imo proves they are actually somewhat broken). The fact that they counter air is an absolute joke. The very threat of a widow mine pretty much makes going mutalisks a nono just because a few widow mine in terrans main + third and mutas will run right over them and die instantly.
At the very least the range needs a reduction, I should be able to KILL A WIDOW MINE/ROCKET without losing a unit if I have detection of it. I should be able to have detection and send in a group of roaches to kill it rather then sacrificing units no matter what to be able to kill it.
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On October 12 2012 15:01 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth. You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope. Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too. The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it. We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range. Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable. I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced. So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it.
I actually have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about, I have ~400 games of beta under my belt with 40-50 or so since the last patch. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
I've been playing sc in one form or another since 2002, you're not the only guy who has played Brood War, Mines in BW didn't hit air, had 25 hp and a shorter range (3). So they were actually pretty damn easy to clear out.
I shouldn't be able to run mines right past static D and burrow them in mineral lines or make only mines to hold off any allin ever. Its just too good at the moment, it makes games so easy.
You're biased because:
biasedpast participle, past tense of bi·as (Verb)
Verb:
Show prejudice for or against (someone or something) unfairly
Influence unfairly to invoke favoritism
thats how you have viewed terran since WoL beta, but there is no point in trying to get sense through your thick skull so from here forward I'm going ignore your posts lest you have something useful to say.
On October 12 2012 09:35 StandAloneComplex wrote:
Just give it an activationdelay, where the mine is visible (it blinks red or opens its shell) for the enemy, when the enemy gets in range , 1 sec. or less . And if the enemy reacts very quick and pulls his unit away in time , it deactivates again. That solves all the problems. Drops and cloacked harass , is then possible and airplay also. If the delay is short enough , than the unit is still very usefull , but without its opdness in some situations.And if you activate the mine manually and wait until the enemy unit is on top of the mine, then its very difficult to get away for the enemy, even with an delay after activation.
+lower its hp to 50 (they shoud not be able to walk rigth into the enemy and then burrow in the enemys army)
and take away the detectorability
So far I like this idea the most tbh, Spider mines in BW had the same thing kind of, they made that little sound and they would jump but if you ran away quick enough they sunk back in the ground. Yeah with this change the range would be fine at 5 I think. Going to post this on the b.net forums :D
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Nerfing range would be a horrible idea imo. Right now you can have little doubt that the widow mine is very strong in early/mid game, however especially when people learn to deal with them, in late game they dont add that much. One of the core ideas was that it would be used to defend expos for example, if you nerf their range to numbers some people here want (so less than roach range), you would need so many, each 2 population, that you simply just cant spare the population from your main army.
Activation delay is then a way better solution, but please make it for example dependant on the range the unit is from the mine, so the closer you are, the shorter the delay. Or at least make sure that it wont kill the entire terran marine line when zealots charge in while dragging mines.
Before people tell me I should then learn to micro, that would be a valid argument if in this case the toss also had to micro, and not just a-move his zealots. If the toss had to do something to drag the mines along (in my above example as a solution it would be on purpose moving through the outer edge of mine activation radius), then I would be completely happy terrans have to do something to prevent that from killing their units.
In the end I consider the demands that you should be able to a-move your roaches across a minefield with an overseer tasked to follow them stupid. Then you really will limit mines to early game contain and some cheeses. Fine if that is your goal, but I would like to see mines with a bit more depth. Oh and lets not forget, just like pretty much everything in SC2, you can also kill them with infestors (fungal if you got too much energy, otherwise just use an infested terran to trigger the mine. Actually I could live with it if fungal prevents the mine from firing, but only when fungal itself has been nerfed first). Or you let a queen trigger it and then transfuse the queen. Or you just sacrifise some lings.
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Sometimes I feel people are way too quick to call for the nerfbat.
Just look back at things like the ghost nerf(s) and what they did to ghost play in tvz.
Hots should bring new elements to the gameplay. Powerfull tools to make your opponent think twice when, where and how to engage. The new widowmine seems to do so.
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The widow mine is at a perfect spot of "perfect game design"
It forces unit diversity, it forces player awareness on their army movements and it forces player's strategic decisions.
Unit diversity, more Zergs are producing hydras to deal with minefields, more Protoss are producing more than one observer and Terran are more conservative with their MULES.  Viewers find it interesting.
Player interaction, everyone can't mass up army against Terran, a-move while macroing. Viewers find more excitement.
(AHMERGERD, idra wasn't looking at his army and now almost now all are in the red after having stepped on some mines!)
Player strategic decisions, number of widow mines (too may and lose to hydra/infestor/overseer, placement of widow mines (clumped, spaced, etc), to include widow mines in army or exclude, etc. Viewers find the depth from the strategic decisions interesting.
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I play Zerg.
I've been reading this thread and seeing multiple times other Zergs saying only hydra/swarm host and broodlords are the only stuff that kills the mines without dying.
But really, early game you can always send 1 ling to bait the mines and mid game infested terrans.
I've met quite a few extreme mine users (not saying they are really good) and after a few games I figure out how to just go fxxk and kill them.
there really function somewhat like a hellion......they only kill you when you're under prepared.
it is just instead of destroying your economy they kill your army, ultimately they are map control unit and cannot hold off a army by itself. they are here to slow your pushes, to buy time.
i personally think they are powerful, useful and most importantly extremely fun to play against (and i imagine it is fun as well to play with them). though i thing i don't understand is why do they detect cloak? that doesn't really make sense to me and i don't feel like they need it.
microing against a mine that you know might be there (not to mention you might know it IS there) isn't harder than engaging a ling/bling battle. after all mines can't move or dodge, can they?
before any changes, they definitely deserve more testing. and people need to try harder before claiming it is OP
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On October 12 2012 03:51 Grendel wrote:
Imo range is fine.
What I think is needed: like you said hit points. But also:
- Burrow time increased
- Reduced splash to 35
- Unable to detect cloaked units.
I think with these parameters altered it would be a good unit.
yeah and then it will become useless...no tnx
in my opinion they need just to lower the hitpoint to 55(previous one) and mines will be okish
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Seeing how mines kill observers, I'd suggest making them only detect ground units, so protoss has a way of dealing with them without having to babysit their observers like crazy.
It would also make sense lore-wise  Spiders can feel the ground shaking and know there's prey etc. So it would only make sense they could do that. But that's just fluff. You gotta do what is good for design
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On October 12 2012 15:01 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth. You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope. Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too. The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it. We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range. Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable. I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced. So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it.
sadly...the new generation of gamers are too much accustomed to easy things,
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Definitely increase burrow time or/and decrease HP.
Just to make it harder to just run into opponent base.
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Setting it so cloaked units only take the 40 splash damage would be fair - the unit is cloaked, so it's reasonable to assume that the mine can't directly target it (it should still do 160 if the unit is being revealed). This way, they would act as a warning that something cloaked is around, but the other player won't instantly lose their (likely) expensive harass cloaked unit, they will just suffer some damage. This will also give away both the location of the widow mine and the fact that their are widow mines in play, which means the harass isn't completely nullified by the mines and still has a chance to do some damage, and knows the location of the first mine so it can avoid it on the way out.
Toss will still have to be careful with observers, but obs can see the mine so it's possibly reasonable to say that it's their own fault if they lose them. Otherwise, some slight numbers tweaking could be okay.
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Bit of a useless thread TBH. Not only do "we" state with absolute certainty that the mine is OP, after a few days of playing, but "we" know how to fix it.
Something that i think a few people are confused about is the "status" of the unit. The Widow Mine is much more like a SwarmH or Lurker then a BW spider mine. It cost supply,gas, has a build time and positioning considerations. It's not "broken" if you might loose units even if you have detection (just like with lurkers...or any cloaked unit).
Now i would rather it be like a spider mine (no supply and easier to kill), but that is not what Blizzard wants. The point is, you can't expect it to have the same weaknesses as a BW mine but have the cost of an actual unit (supply, build time).
The only possible problem it might have right now is a need for better early game detection from Z/P, and Blizzard commented on that.
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Nerf nothing until zerg and protoss players have figured out how the hell to split their units and stop deathballing around the map, followed immediately by streams of complaints when widow mines one shot their units.
So DT's should essentially be a useless investment in PvT because your opponent decided to play mech? Should the mines be able to deal with everything? If so, isn't that a freaking terrible game design? Why build turrets anymore, the mines will deal with DT's and kill air! If he goes phoenix, mines! VR? Mines! DT's? Mines! Heavy gateway attack? Make sure we've got some mines!
You don't even need to scout at that point.
Except the mines are stationary and you're attacking into a terran who has basically committed a large amount of supply, time and money into building static defenses.
So yeah. Your DTs should probably be ineffective. No, I shouldn't have to scout it. Why should you have an innate advantage with a BS unit when the only effort you have made is to wall off your ramp, put a zealot on it to stop SCV runbys and hidden the Dark Shrine in the sunken corner of your base. Double gas can mean any number of ridiculous protoss all ins.
I have a unit that can do exactly the same thing already, by the way. It's called an Orbital Command.
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I honestly feel that a design change is more in place than balance of the unit, especially at this stage of the beta. My suggestion is to first of all remove the targeting of cloaked units, it doesn't make sense and even must feel weird to have it target units that you yourself (as the Terran Commander) have never even seen!
My next and biggest suggestion is to remove the invisibility while recharging the Unstable Payload. Then the cooldown on this can be reduced, but most importantly this would shift the focus of Widow Mines to only defending your base or key locations or as support of your main army. No more running them into your enemy's main and hoping to kill 6 workers, followed by that awkward period of slowly getting detection to deal with it.
Lastly, as I sit here thinking about it, maybe a different anti air attack than the Unstable Payload, for instance a Goliath-like attack against air might be good, the Unstable Payload attack seems like it would be too coinflippy against air units. If someone knows there will be Widow Mine defense, he can send a single unit in first, then he has a 40 second window. Or he doesn't know there is defense and loses most of his harassing group of units.
Edit: Disclaimer: I would like to clarify I am not in the beta ( ) and this is theory crafting. I have on the other hand watched a LOT of games and streams on HotS. These are just my 2 cents from unit design perspective.
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On October 12 2012 23:52 Illiterate wrote:
I honestly feel that a design change is more in place than balance of the unit, especially at this stage of the beta. My suggestion is to first of all remove the targeting of cloaked units, it doesn't make sense and even must feel weird to have it target units that you yourself (as the Terran Commander) have never even seen!
My next and biggest suggestion is to remove the invisibility while recharging the Unstable Payload. Then the cooldown on this can be reduced, but most importantly this would shift the focus of Widow Mines to only defending your base or key locations or as support of your main army. No more running them into your enemy's main and hoping to kill 6 workers, followed by that awkward period of slowly getting detection to deal with it.
Lastly, as I sit here thinking about it, maybe a different anti air attack than the Unstable Payload, for instance a Goliath-like attack against air might be good, the Unstable Payload attack seems like it would be too coinflippy against air units. If someone knows there will be Widow Mine defense, he can send a single unit in first, then he has a 40 second window. Or he doesn't know there is defense and loses most of his harassing group of units.
No offence but if you're letting mines run into your mineral line then you aren't:
A - building units anywhere near early enough (meaning stop being a greedy bastard)
B - paying anything like as much attention as you should be
It's also not coinflippy against air units. Stop thinking that you can easily waltz mutalisks into the base of a terran and be more careful how you group your units up. Widow mines exist to make protoss and zerg wake the hell up and do what terrans have been doing for 2 years now - splitting your damn units and making sure your bases are defended.
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EPT
