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On October 14 2012 19:44 GARcher wrote:
8 Siege Tanks + insufficient number of marines = unsupported siege line. Plus 16 marauders and enough hellions to buffer damage is much more supply wise and resource wise compared to the Siege Tank composition.
16 marauders = 1200 minerals and 400 gas
Planetary = 550 min and 150 gas
Bunker = 100 min
Duh 16 marauders are going to kill these things. Might as well say 4 Roaches would kill 1 Zergling extremely efficiently.
And if you do scout that the opponent is Marauder heavy you'd get more Marines since Marauders have absolutely horrible DPS against non armoured units.
You seem to have missed out some numbers. Your bias is showing.
16 marauders and 4 medivacs = 2000 minerals and 800 gas
8 Siege tanks = 1200 minerals and 1000 gas
Planetary = 550 min and 150 gas
Bunker = 100 min
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On October 14 2012 19:49 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 19:44 GARcher wrote:
8 Siege Tanks + insufficient number of marines = unsupported siege line. Plus 16 marauders and enough hellions to buffer damage is much more supply wise and resource wise compared to the Siege Tank composition.
16 marauders = 1200 minerals and 400 gas
Planetary = 550 min and 150 gas
Bunker = 100 min
Duh 16 marauders are going to kill these things. Might as well say 4 Roaches would kill 1 Zergling extremely efficiently.
And if you do scout that the opponent is Marauder heavy you'd get more Marines since Marauders have absolutely horrible DPS against non armoured units.
You seem to have missed out some numbers. Your bias is showing. 16 marauders and 4 medivacs = 2000 minerals and 800 gas 8 Siege tanks = 1200 minerals and 1000 gasPlanetary = 550 min and 150 gas Bunker = 100 min
16 Marauders + 4 medivac = 40 supply not counting your Hellions
8 Siege Tanks = 24 supply
Needs 16 marines to be even in supply without counting the Hellions.
16 marines isn't an inadequate number of marines.
Who do you think will win?
Keep wanking. Your lack of gameplay experience is showing.
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On October 14 2012 19:55 GARcher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 19:49 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 19:44 GARcher wrote:
8 Siege Tanks + insufficient number of marines = unsupported siege line. Plus 16 marauders and enough hellions to buffer damage is much more supply wise and resource wise compared to the Siege Tank composition.
16 marauders = 1200 minerals and 400 gas
Planetary = 550 min and 150 gas
Bunker = 100 min
Duh 16 marauders are going to kill these things. Might as well say 4 Roaches would kill 1 Zergling extremely efficiently.
And if you do scout that the opponent is Marauder heavy you'd get more Marines since Marauders have absolutely horrible DPS against non armoured units.
You seem to have missed out some numbers. Your bias is showing. 16 marauders and 4 medivacs = 2000 minerals and 800 gas 8 Siege tanks = 1200 minerals and 1000 gasPlanetary = 550 min and 150 gas Bunker = 100 min 16 Marauders + 4 medivac = 40 supply not counting your Hellions 8 Siege Tanks = 24 supply Needs 16 marines to be even in supply without counting the Hellions. 16 marines isn't an inadequate number of marines. Who do you think will win? Keep wanking. Your lack of gameplay experience is showing.
The ratios for marines in marine/tank/medivac comp to effectively beat a marauder/hellion/medivac is all least between four to six marines every 1 tank, that works out 32 marines at least. Assuming the marines focus on the marauders, that leaves the hellions to "line'em up" straight up and cut that number by half within the blue flame first salvo.
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Mech is already becoming non-viable in TvP on streams, Morrow would ban most of you if you made theses suggestions on his stream (specially anything about toss being weak). Mine is fine specially after this patch. if anything it is weak late game because alot of things outrages it.
Decreasing its range will kill the unit's viability even in early game, removing the anti air would mean it would be garbage compared to spider mines (that did 125 splash damage and were FREE) and would never be built if they costed supply & resources. I think Blizzard knows some folks are over reaching when they mentioned "lower level protoss players are complaining about gateway units".
Alot of zerg and protoss's think they can abuse terrans now that they got the warhound removed and both races are far more populated than terran so they can gang down opinions. This must not happen otherwise blizzard can have a 2 race system for all I care (WCS asia already has zero terrans).
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On October 14 2012 20:07 DaveVAH wrote:
Mech is already becoming non-viable in TvP on streams, Morrow would ban most of you if you made theses suggestions on his stream (specially anything about toss being weak). Mine is fine specially after this patch. if anything it is weak late game because alot of things outrages it.
Decreasing its range will kill the unit's viability even in early game, removing the anti air would mean it would be garbage compared to spider mines (that did 125 splash damage and were FREE) and would never be built if they costed supply & resources. I think Blizzard knows some folks are over reaching when they mentioned "lower level protoss players are complaining about gateway units".
Alot of zerg and protoss's think they can abuse terrans now that they got the warhound removed and both races are far more populated than terran so they can gang down opinions. This must not happen otherwise blizzard can have a 2 race system for all I care (WCS asia already has zero terrans).
Sorry mine needs some sort of early game nerf (idc if it gets a late game buff to compensate). In tvz at least right now terran gets complete map control until lair tech. Aka zerg can't do any aggression vs terran before the 9 minute mark (unless you are going like 4 minute lair lol). Widow rocket is incredibly powerful and if spread around the map at all zerg can't move out. You can run zerglings around to try and get them to fire (assuming terran doesn't have hellions nearby to stop that) but you won't know where any mines are nor can you counter it unless it's at your base thanks to the spore not needing evo.
They either need to make it so they can't come out so early or something as right now again terran gets complete map control, can take a third and have it established before zerg because we need detection to even be out on the map now.
Of course if blizzard allows overseers earlier or gives overlords detection then i'm all for that to, either way something needs to be done so that zerg can at least push out or if they want to, be aggressive before lair tech. As it is now zerg can't be aggressive due to widow rockets atm. You may think that's fine but it's dumb that terran can secure a third much easier and earlier then zerg without having to worry about a push to punish it ^^.
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On October 16 2012 17:20 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 20:07 DaveVAH wrote:
Mech is already becoming non-viable in TvP on streams, Morrow would ban most of you if you made theses suggestions on his stream (specially anything about toss being weak). Mine is fine specially after this patch. if anything it is weak late game because alot of things outrages it.
Decreasing its range will kill the unit's viability even in early game, removing the anti air would mean it would be garbage compared to spider mines (that did 125 splash damage and were FREE) and would never be built if they costed supply & resources. I think Blizzard knows some folks are over reaching when they mentioned "lower level protoss players are complaining about gateway units".
Alot of zerg and protoss's think they can abuse terrans now that they got the warhound removed and both races are far more populated than terran so they can gang down opinions. This must not happen otherwise blizzard can have a 2 race system for all I care (WCS asia already has zero terrans). Sorry mine needs some sort of early game nerf (idc if it gets a late game buff to compensate). In tvz at least right now terran gets complete map control until lair tech. Aka zerg can't do any aggression vs terran before the 9 minute mark (unless you are going like 4 minute lair lol). Widow rocket is incredibly powerful and if spread around the map at all zerg can't move out. You can run zerglings around to try and get them to fire (assuming terran doesn't have hellions nearby to stop that) but you won't know where any mines are nor can you counter it unless it's at your base thanks to the spore not needing evo. They either need to make it so they can't come out so early or something as right now again terran gets complete map control, can take a third and have it established before zerg because we need detection to even be out on the map now. Of course if blizzard allows overseers earlier or gives overlords detection then i'm all for that to, either way something needs to be done so that zerg can at least push out or if they want to, be aggressive before lair tech. As it is now zerg can't be aggressive due to widow rockets atm. You may think that's fine but it's dumb that terran can secure a third much easier and earlier then zerg without having to worry about a push to punish it ^^.
lol@ this post, a zerg whining about how terrans have lived the last patch in WoL.... Zerg can secure a third much easier and faster than terran due to queens / spines / spores / units, and now that terran can do THE SAME THING as zerg, it's now unfair?
As already said, the mine is strong but NOT OP because there are work arounds to counter it... if you want to harras with air, just send ONE mutalisk to scout, sacrifice it, then send your mutalisk ball and harras...
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On October 16 2012 18:21 yanot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 17:20 blade55555 wrote:On October 14 2012 20:07 DaveVAH wrote:
Mech is already becoming non-viable in TvP on streams, Morrow would ban most of you if you made theses suggestions on his stream (specially anything about toss being weak). Mine is fine specially after this patch. if anything it is weak late game because alot of things outrages it.
Decreasing its range will kill the unit's viability even in early game, removing the anti air would mean it would be garbage compared to spider mines (that did 125 splash damage and were FREE) and would never be built if they costed supply & resources. I think Blizzard knows some folks are over reaching when they mentioned "lower level protoss players are complaining about gateway units".
Alot of zerg and protoss's think they can abuse terrans now that they got the warhound removed and both races are far more populated than terran so they can gang down opinions. This must not happen otherwise blizzard can have a 2 race system for all I care (WCS asia already has zero terrans). Sorry mine needs some sort of early game nerf (idc if it gets a late game buff to compensate). In tvz at least right now terran gets complete map control until lair tech. Aka zerg can't do any aggression vs terran before the 9 minute mark (unless you are going like 4 minute lair lol). Widow rocket is incredibly powerful and if spread around the map at all zerg can't move out. You can run zerglings around to try and get them to fire (assuming terran doesn't have hellions nearby to stop that) but you won't know where any mines are nor can you counter it unless it's at your base thanks to the spore not needing evo. They either need to make it so they can't come out so early or something as right now again terran gets complete map control, can take a third and have it established before zerg because we need detection to even be out on the map now. Of course if blizzard allows overseers earlier or gives overlords detection then i'm all for that to, either way something needs to be done so that zerg can at least push out or if they want to, be aggressive before lair tech. As it is now zerg can't be aggressive due to widow rockets atm. You may think that's fine but it's dumb that terran can secure a third much easier and earlier then zerg without having to worry about a push to punish it ^^. lol@ this post, a zerg whining about how terrans have lived the last patch in WoL.... Zerg can secure a third much easier and faster than terran due to queens / spines / spores / units, and now that terran can do THE SAME THING as zerg, it's now unfair? As already said, the mine is strong but NOT OP because there are work arounds to counter it... if you want to harras with air, just send ONE mutalisk to scout, sacrifice it, then send your mutalisk ball and harras...
zerg needs to be one base or "half a base" up to be EVEN. if terran has 3rd before zerg, zerg is way behind.
and yes the mine is super OP right now because its early, cheap, single and AoE damage, shoots air and cloaked units and outranges every early game zerg unit. blizzard needs to give them a defined role and they hopefully choose that role to be a ground space control unit.
and no you cant send in one muta since the turret + mine combination doesnt care about 1 muta. the mine shouldnt counter cloak and air harrass since it should take skill to prevent that harrass and not a no-apm-unit thats good vs everything and available way too early and way too cheap for what it does.
- the mine needs to come a little later (so they dont have to make detection available super early and nerf DTs/banshees etc.)
- the mine needs to have longer burrow time (so you cant just runby defenses of opponent and burrow in his face and cant drop mines in mineral lines)
- the mine shouldnt hit air/cloak units (so it takes skill to counter harrass and not burrow 3 mines and be safe vs everything)
if the mine gets too bad after these changes just increase their splash radius and splash damage so they are better at controlling space which is their purpose.
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As a Protoss player, at my level of play (Bronze HOTS, Gold WOL) I don't think it needs a nerf. I can deal with them better than MMM Balls at the moment.
When I see them, I just start hunting around with hallucinated probes then kill some with 3 stalkers and an obs. I know that my opponent is probably turtling/macroing, or better yet, has made too much of them --If i'm gonna loose, its gonna be because I did not scout a well placed one instead of being rolled by MMM or a good drop which I have to say is more exciting.
Now, if ever there ever comes some Mass Widow Mine + Ravens + Viking build... then I would complain.
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On October 16 2012 18:53 Decendos wrote:
zerg needs to be one base or "half a base" up to be EVEN. if terran has 3rd before zerg, zerg is way behind.
and yes the mine is super OP right now because its early, cheap, single and AoE damage, shoots air and cloaked units and outranges every early game zerg unit. blizzard needs to give them a defined role and they hopefully choose that role to be a ground space control unit.
and no you cant send in one muta since the turret + mine combination doesnt care about 1 muta. the mine shouldnt counter cloak and air harrass since it should take skill to prevent that harrass and not a no-apm-unit thats good vs everything and available way too early and way too cheap for what it does.
- the mine needs to come a little later (so they dont have to make detection available super early and nerf DTs/banshees etc.)
- the mine needs to have longer burrow time (so you cant just runby defenses of opponent and burrow in his face and cant drop mines in mineral lines)
- the mine shouldnt hit air/cloak units (so it takes skill to counter harrass and not burrow 3 mines and be safe vs everything)
if the mine gets too bad after these changes just increase their splash radius and splash damage so they are better at controlling space which is their purpose.
If terran has 3rd "before" (and why should it be "before", more like at the same time btw) .... you take a fourth and are ahead again?
You think zerg will be harrassed a lot if a terran put 2 supply mines AND turrets at each base?
and why can't you sacrifice a muta to get the mine ? If he has mines & turrets, he has too much defense so you just back. You can sacrifice an over and scout too, and you can even use overlords to get mines. There are work arounds, just let enough time to players to find them all before crying OP OP
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On October 16 2012 19:23 yanot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 18:53 Decendos wrote:
zerg needs to be one base or "half a base" up to be EVEN. if terran has 3rd before zerg, zerg is way behind.
and yes the mine is super OP right now because its early, cheap, single and AoE damage, shoots air and cloaked units and outranges every early game zerg unit. blizzard needs to give them a defined role and they hopefully choose that role to be a ground space control unit.
and no you cant send in one muta since the turret + mine combination doesnt care about 1 muta. the mine shouldnt counter cloak and air harrass since it should take skill to prevent that harrass and not a no-apm-unit thats good vs everything and available way too early and way too cheap for what it does.
- the mine needs to come a little later (so they dont have to make detection available super early and nerf DTs/banshees etc.)
- the mine needs to have longer burrow time (so you cant just runby defenses of opponent and burrow in his face and cant drop mines in mineral lines)
- the mine shouldnt hit air/cloak units (so it takes skill to counter harrass and not burrow 3 mines and be safe vs everything)
if the mine gets too bad after these changes just increase their splash radius and splash damage so they are better at controlling space which is their purpose. If terran has 3rd "before" (and why should it be "before", more like at the same time btw) .... you take a fourth and are ahead again? You think zerg will be harrassed a lot if a terran put 2 supply mines AND turrets at each base? and why can't you sacrifice a muta to get the mine ? If he has mines & turrets, he has too much defense so you just back. You can sacrifice an over and scout too, and you can even use overlords to get mines. There are work arounds, just let enough time to players to find them all before crying OP OP
1 rax FE into 2x gas into factory into mines + 3rd CC has the 3rd A LOT earlier then the zerg player.
and no you cant get arund 1 turret and 1 mine in the mineral line with mutas. in WoL the T player needs units to defend once the zerg gets more than 15 or so mutas, in HOTS they just have 6 supply (= 1 min in each mineral line) or 75 gas to counter 1500 gas without no skill, no apm, not even a risk since they are so cheap and otherwise usable in case zerg dont commit to mutas.
i know why you like mines: its because there is no need for skill: no scouting needed before going mines, no apm needed to use them, no risk if you build them, antiair, anticloak and antiground so preventing all harrassment --> even less skill needed since you dont need map awareness, less multitasking etc.
an antieverything mine like it is right now takes A LOT of skill from playing terran and we want more skill in the game not less. its the same with entombed. every bronce player can entombed like a pro player which is superbad game design and will also be changed hopefully.
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I don't mind they buffing the mine damage, or anything else, but the air attack has to go away... My banshee build no longer works in TvT, and probably many other builds from Z/P too...
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On October 12 2012 03:51 Ljas wrote:
Alternatively, let's not bombard the devs with balance issues and let them make the general design of the units work first.
The devs approach balance so conservatively and step by step, but there's no need. The best solutions can be figured out in a discussion like this.
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United Kingdom12064 Posts
On October 16 2012 23:48 osiris17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 03:51 Ljas wrote:
Alternatively, let's not bombard the devs with balance issues and let them make the general design of the units work first. The devs approach balance so conservatively and step by step, but there's no need. The best solutions can be figured out in a discussion like this.
Wellk that's not entirely true. There's too much whining from everywhere for a discussion like this to work.
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I don't like the idea of earlier detection just because of the widow mine because it affects other things too like reducing the effects banshee and dt tech. I would much rather see scouting made easier to compensate this was already basically done with the free hallucination and I would just like to see a zerg version of it.
They said they wanted to experiment with an earlier widow mine so now it does not have the armory requirement.
There are many changes that could be done that would be faster than armory but still delay early widow mines that are used agressively.
I like the health going down but I think the range is fine the primary purpose of the mine being added in the first place is to help tvp mech and from the streams I watch a range decrease would hurt that even more. I would say that increasing the burrowtime would make more sense.
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I think the mine is fine just the way it is, as a P player it requires me to be more cautious about moving around the map, even though I have a mothership core and I have to be more careful with my observers. There is a whole new dimension to the game the current widow mine adds and its probably far too early to nerf it without adequate testing.
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just give the mine a delay fire.
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Reduction in hp and remove it's AA.
It can't/musn't remain in it's current form.
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remove it from the game
tvt is a huge joke
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On October 16 2012 18:21 yanot wrote:
lol@ this post, a zerg whining about how terrans have lived the last patch in WoL.... Zerg can secure a third much easier and faster than terran due to queens / spines / spores / units, and now that terran can do THE SAME THING as zerg, it's now unfair?
I don't think the game is balanced around all the races being able to do exactly the same thing, because of the inherent asymmetry of their design. (That's just a comment in general, I haven't played against the WM to talk about how it affects the game).
On October 16 2012 18:21 yanot wrote:
As already said, the mine is strong but NOT OP because there are work arounds to counter it... if you want to harras with air, just send ONE mutalisk to scout, sacrifice it, then send your mutalisk ball and harras...
Question: What happens when there's two WMs next to each other and you fly a Muta into their range? Do they both fire?
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EPT
