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So this is post I made on the b.net forums, mostly to blizzard directly, but I would like to see what my fellow TLer's think about the subject seeing as how those forums move about as fast as a molasses land slide chasing a snail.. on top of a turtle.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794713364
Okay so its no secret the widow mines are too strong with current numbers, but thats fine, numbers are malleable. The purpose of this thread is too discuss how the widow mine should be nerfed to make it a balanced but still useful unit.
The cost and supply are fine I don't think that needs any touching.
The speed is also in a good place, still slower than stalkers and slow lings, they can get around the map just fine and can be taken out early enough before ling speed and obs with proper micro and positioning.
The Hit Points and Range are what I think need looking at, and if more balancing is needed, then burrow time. But if they're weaker and have less range the burrow time may be just fine.
Right now the widow mine is basically a hellion in terms of HP, it is very tanky, we have hellions for this role, the mine doesn't need to soak as much damage as it does now, considering the damage it deals. I propose a health reduction to 50 HP and see how that feels, I would not go any lower than 30.
The range right now is just 1 less than a Stalker and Banshee and 1 more than a roach. The range right now lets it take out units just a little too easily (as well as medivacs and warp prisms and any other harassing unit.) I think the range should be lowered to 4 or maybe 3, this would make the early game shenangins much easier to stop while still keep it powerful enough to control space and buffer your tank lines for those awesome BroodWar esque slow pushes.
So to summarize, Reduce the HP to 50 or 40 and reduce the range by 1 or 2, this makes microing against them not as unforgiving while still keeping them strong for controlling space and supporting your army.
Couple these changes with Blizzards proposed ideas to give the other races earlier detection and I think we have a balanced awesome widow mine! What do you guys think?
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Imo range is fine.
What I think is needed: like you said hit points. But also:
- Burrow time increased
- Reduced splash to 35
- Unable to detect cloaked units.
I think with these parameters altered it would be a good unit.
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Alternatively, let's not bombard the devs with balance issues and let them make the general design of the units work first.
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IMO:
-Reduce damage done to primary target (widow mines no longer sacrifice themselves therefore don't have to trade 1 for 1 with every 2 supply unit.)
-No longer targets air
All I would do for now.
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On October 12 2012 03:51 Ljas wrote:
Alternatively, let's not bombard the devs with balance issues and let them make the general design of the units work first.
What do you mean? Like they will change the mine again?
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On October 12 2012 03:56 Phoobie wrote:
IMO:
-Reduce damage done to primary target (widow mines no longer sacrifice themselves therefore don't have to trade 1 for 1 with every 2 supply unit.)
-No longer targets air
All I would do for now.
I think it needs to target air for the following reason(s):
1. An anti air unit on the factory smaller and more maneuverable than the thor has been an intention since HoTS was first announced. Unless they take out the Thor and maybe put the warhound back in as an AA unit I don't think they will make it not hit air.
2. With some earlier anti air Actually just making factories for the early game has become viable (which is so huge for mech) while still needing to make vikings later on if the opponent is committing to air.
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Ahaha funny joke by someone not in beta. I get it. Please stop trying to distract people from how the widow mine should be buffed so it's viable beyond the first 7 minutes of the game.
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On October 12 2012 03:51 Ljas wrote:
Alternatively, let's not bombard the devs with balance issues and let them make the general design of the units work first.
Lol how dare you suggest that we give blizz more than a week to give this new version of the unit its trial run.
At this point the beta shouldn't be about balance but about how well something works. Its the same with entomb, no one is really discussing the finer points of its balance but the fact that it is boring and requires no skill.
The discussion about the Widow mine should be focused on that too, is it a good unit? Does it require skill to use to its best and does it require skill to defend? Fuck balance, make the thing work right first.
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The fact that it sees cloaked/burrowed units (and prioritize them or so it seems) is puzzling me. it makes dealing with mines incredibly difficult. I mean, some will manage (protoss: obs folowwing a stalker, although bye bye to obs roaming the map), the pros will manage, but the others? Bronze-gold will be a clusterfuck of mines and ragequits. Zergs are gonna be pissed to no end to have to make like 3 hydras just for mines.
Is it really too simple to deal with mines if they cannot see cloaked units? It will still control space in the sense that the main army will be able to move around but small forces will have to be really careful.
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On October 12 2012 03:51 Grendel wrote:
Imo range is fine.
What I think is needed: like you said hit points. But also:
- Burrow time increased
- Reduced splash to 35
- Unable to detect cloaked units.
I think with these parameters altered it would be a good unit.
No range is not fine. The only unit from zerg that can attack the "mine" and not be killed is a broodlord, swarmhost and hydra with range upgrade.
You can't counter it with anything else no matter what the mine is going to kill zerg units no matter how hard you try. The mine should be able to be killed by ranged units like roaches when you have detection, but you can have detection and the mine will still hit a roach which is a change that needs to happen.
On October 12 2012 04:11 NATO wrote:
Ahaha funny joke by someone not in beta. I get it. Please stop trying to distract people from how the widow mine should be buffed so it's viable beyond the first 7 minutes of the game.
He's in beta, he plays terran and he uses the mine a ton. Learn to know what you are talking about?
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The range is to small, you can kill it easily before it gets the observer, and the time to rearm is too long.
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On October 12 2012 04:11 NATO wrote:
Ahaha funny joke by someone not in beta. I get it. Please stop trying to distract people from how the widow mine should be buffed so it's viable beyond the first 7 minutes of the game.
They see me trollin'... They hatin'...
I have 300+ games in the beta, with almost all of those being Terran and I have meched in the vast majority of the games. As a reasonably skilled player I am saying the mine is too strong period but I want it to be nerfed properly so as to not make it useless.
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On October 12 2012 04:14 ant-1 wrote:
The fact that it sees cloaked/burrowed units (and prioritize them or so it seems) is puzzling me. it makes dealing with mines incredibly difficult. I mean, some will manage (protoss: obs folowwing a stalker, although bye bye to obs roaming the map), the pros will manage, but the others? Bronze-gold will be a clusterfuck of mines and ragequits. Zergs are gonna be pissed to no end to have to make like 3 hydras just for mines.
Is it really too simple to deal with mines if they cannot see cloaked units? It will still control space in the sense that the main army will be able to move around but small forces will have to be really careful.
Well the obs does have 11 range, and if the mine gets a range reduction it will be even easier to deal with them but will still punish sloppy control. And yes Mech Terran has fairly poor detection early in the game and the mines are only a soft counter, derping DT's through front door was never really a good idea and only killed "greedy" terrans who skipped a single turret, but using DT's in warp prisms for example will still be strong, and think about it, you can drag the mine into the SCV lines with them, so there is still a lot of back and forth, its like the mine just straight up hard counters cloak units. Its just a soft counter to buy time.
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On October 12 2012 04:13 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 03:51 Ljas wrote:
Alternatively, let's not bombard the devs with balance issues and let them make the general design of the units work first. Lol how dare you suggest that we give blizz more than a week to give this new version of the unit its trial run. At this point the beta shouldn't be about balance but about how well something works. Its the same with entomb, no one is really discussing the finer points of its balance but the fact that it is boring and requires no skill. The discussion about the Widow mine should be focused on that too, is it a good unit? Does it require skill to use to its best and does it require skill to defend? Fuck balance, make the thing work right first.
Yes I think it works pretty good, it rewards good positioning and punishes sloppy control, it can't be amoved, its a very methodical unit, much like the siege tank. And it takes a good amount of skill to clear the map of them and make sure they don't get into your base. They probably shouldn't be able to load into a medivac tbh... although it is hilarious when a 1 widow mine kills a medivac with 4 widow mines in it :D
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i like their high high hp so you cant just clear a minefield instantly and they either are vs runbys or stall long enough for the slow moving mech army to reposition. cost + supply + not being a "explode and gone" unit is also nice.
what needs to be changed:
- make them not hit air and not hit cloaked units. every harrass prevented by a super lowprice unit is just bad design (all harrass unit that are air or cloaked cost a LOT LOT LOT more than widow mines)
- make burrow time A LOT higher! they are supposed to be a DEFENSIVE structure, not an offensive one. right now they are used offensively and burrowed in sightvision of opponents or dropped in mineral lines and instaburrowed. thats a really bad thing.
with these changes i like the widow mine 
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On October 12 2012 03:51 Grendel wrote:
Imo range is fine.
What I think is needed: like you said hit points. But also:
- Burrow time increased
- Reduced splash to 35
- Unable to detect cloaked units.
I think with these parameters altered it would be a good unit.
I don't think it detects cloaked units. Do you mean it shoudn't be able to shoot at non-detected cloaked units?
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You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2.
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Well i find once you get in to the late game where its 200 vs 200 mines are pretty useless and take up important supply, but for the early-mid game the widow mine allows terran to defend and get some early map control while you get double armoury and 3 bases faster then you previously could. Wait a few more weeks before making these kind of conclusions.
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I honestly can't believe that after all the stuff protoss and zerg got in hots you people are still trying to make terran even more of a joke than it already is.
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Don't nerf it at all, just buff other units...
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On October 12 2012 03:51 Grendel wrote:
Imo range is fine.
What I think is needed: like you said hit points. But also:
- Burrow time increased
- Reduced splash to 35
- Unable to detect cloaked units.
I think with these parameters altered it would be a good unit.
It can detect cloaked units tooo!! holytits batman thats crazy i knew it was good but it just keeps getting crazier or perhaps u mean like spidermines used to do, it doesn't reveal them but it kills them if they get near it.
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my issue with lowering the range is twofold
first if you reduce the range you then require terran to build more mines in order to defend a certain area, so in a way, decreasing the range is increasing the supply cost of the mine.
second, the range enables widow mines to be very powerful defensively, as zerg must attack with roaches or hydras (which are bad against tanks), and protoss must attack with stalkers or collossus (and therefore his entire army)
the true issue with the widow mine is that i can be used offensively. This in my opinion should not be the case. Terran already has two dedicated early harass units, the banshee and the reaper, which are not that effective in other roles. Likewise the widow mine needs to be a defensive/space control unit, not a cheese/rush unit.
so, then the question is how to reduce the widow mines capacity for aggression while still making it viable for defense.
my solution is to:
1. re introduce the armory requirement (as this will not only make widow mines come later, but makes scouting a widow mine rush possible
2. dramatically decrease the cooldown for unstable payload, while simultaneously making each charge cost x amount (i was thinking 75) minerals (kind of like a reaver). This creates three new aspects to the widow mine. The first is that early game widow mines, especially for aggression where they would be firing often, become VERY expensive. The second is that widow mines synergize very well with mech as they become an alternate mineral sink to the hellion, while at the same time synergizing less with bio and bio/tank as they compete with the production of marines (which are already mobile enough to not need widow mines). Lastly, the ability for opponents to cost effectively trade with the widow mine, even if they get in range, creates an interesting dynamic around widow mines where players make snap decisions over whether it is worth is to kill x number of units for x mineral loss and must micro effectively to get a cost efficient trade.
3. this is a small one, but the burrow time should be increased, simply because it is not needed for a defensive unit to have a super fast burrow time, they should have to be intelligently positioned ahead of time.
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the AA and the ability to attack cloaked units removes more from the game than adds to it... air harass/drops/DT/banshee becomes stupidly risk and not worth the investment with the mine in the field.
if they remove these 2 things, I believe it can keep it's current stats and will probably make air tech more worthy against terran.
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I think one of the bigger problems with the design of the mine right now is that it's got the mineral line harassment potential of a few hellions, which already have incredible potential.
A change such as lowering health and increasing burrow time or preventing them from being loaded into a medivac would probably alleviate that.
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On October 12 2012 07:59 rpgalon wrote:
the AA and the ability to attack cloaked units removes more from the game than adds to it... air harass/drops/DT/banshee becomes stupidly risk and not worth the investment with the mine in the field.
if they remove these 2 things, I believe it can keep it's current stats and will probably make air tech more worthy against terran.
Yeah with the way the mine is now at least in zvt I don't think mutas are viable in anyway shape or form. Makes me sad as I still liked going mutas but with the way mines are now it just is way to risky and even if you have detection you can't attack the mine with them because they attack air :/.
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Personally I don't think blizzard should make any changes to the mines for a couple of weeks. People need time to learn how to deal with them effectively as a concept before more changes are made. Even the pro players like White Ra etc who have been playing incredible amounts of HoTS are still just beginning to get the idea.
- Pro players are moving observers as close as 4-6 (yes dying half the time and being just out of range half the time) their observers WAY closer than the 10-11 range needed to see mines before attempting to have units destroy them.
- They are still sending their whole ball across map instead of having 1-2 units leading their forces to avoid splash damage
- High masters and grandmasters players are still not scouting, or leaving units near the opponents front to identify early mine play. And are still falling for the most basic of mine traps like chasing a retreating army over a few mines and being softened up.
- Zerg players are still not saccing 1 ling per mine until the minefield is on cooldown so that they can clean up the minefield with the rest of their lings (or any other low range unit) yet. They are just complaining about range. Saccing a 25min unit to kill a 75min25gas unit is an exchange that they should be craving!
A lot of the techniques and and general play changes that people need to make before even worrying about build orders etc are simply not happening even at the highest levels. Players are not use to needing to watch an army travel across a map like they had to vs Terran in BW.
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I vote for:
- unable to detect cloaked units (so that cloaked units become a soft counter to widow mine play; right now cloaked play is completely useless vs Terran)
- range reduced by 0.5 (so that zerg can deal with them with hydras without a range upgrade)
That might be enough. It's important NOT to overnerf widow mines, since from the design standpoint widow mines are great units that bring exiting positional play!
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Just give it an activationdelay, where the mine is visible (it blinks red or opens its shell) for the enemy, when the enemy gets in range , 1 sec. or less . And if the enemy reacts very quick and pulls his unit away in time , it deactivates again. That solves all the problems. Drops and cloacked harass , is then possible and airplay also. If the delay is short enough , than the unit is still very usefull , but without its opdness in some situations.And if you activate the mine manually and wait until the enemy unit is on top of the mine, then its very difficult to get away for the enemy, even with an delay after activation.
+lower its hp to 50 (they shoud not be able to walk rigth into the enemy and then burrow in the enemys army)
and take away the detectorability
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On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2.
I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth.
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The only nerf it needs is to not hit workers. It gets weaker and weaker the longer the game goes on because of its horrible supply inefficiency.
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The 2 second burrow time is the most ridiculous aspect about the current design. You can proxy a factory, sneak in a widow mine and burrow it in a zerg player's mineral line at 5:30 and the game instantly ends.
What was the reasoning behind making burrow 2 seconds instead of 4? Wasn't the unit originally designed to break up the death ball by creating a defensive unit? 4 seconds seems like plenty in that case, but now you can just run them in with the rest of your army and burrow them before they get taken out.
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On October 12 2012 10:16 link0 wrote:
The only nerf it needs is to not hit workers. It gets weaker and weaker the longer the game goes on because of its horrible supply inefficiency.
I hope that's not they'll take. Makes the unit lot less exciting.
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Buff splash & reduce single target damage.
nerf HP or increase borrow time
Right now they are too good versus single big targets, that and their high hp make it more attractive to attack with them in your army then to leave then defending you flanks. If you make it so it is harder to run them into an engagement and the wont be as good at kill brood lords and immortals then people will use then for their intended role. I think they should one shot a ling or marine and 2 shot a stalker/roach or something in that area.
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Health reduced to 50
Unstable Payload Attaches itself to enemies and detonates after 5 seconds
Add delay to missile targeting and make it vulnerable when locking on
Increase burrow time
I think they should reintroduce the old widowmine mechanic back into the HotS beta. The 'unstable payload' would attach itself to an enemy unit and, after 5-10 sec, it deals the damage. A warning will be given out to the victim when the 'unstable payload' takes hold on a unit. If the unit with the 'unstable payload' is killed before it detonates, the unit will still explode and deal splash. That way, there will be more reactionary play as the players will try to get the unit attached with the 'unstable payload' out of their army/deathball, and the widowmine splash damage can be buffed to 'punish sloppy play'. The missile can still be free, but it will actually give players a chance to make the widowmine engagement more cost-effective.
Now the main purpose of the mine is to deny early aggression, and big deathballs moving across the map. With the proposed change, the missile would still be doing its job in those situations and it makes it easier for a deathball to move out across the map without sustaining heavy losses. I mean, in its current situation a Protoss deathball moving across the map can be put down by 10 widowmines if not scouted right. Even if spotted, those pesky mines are a nuisance to get rid of, as the ability to target cloaked units means your observer is in danger. So its ability to snipe cloaked units without detection should be removed.
Add a health nerf, a longer window of vulnerability when locking on the a target and increase its burrow time to decrease its offensive capability in the early-mid game. These things are way too strong for their cost.
Widowmines in its current state is almost impossible to kill without any static structures. Even with spines and spore crawlers, the Terran can make a starport (its in their direct tech path) and make banshees. To deal with spines, they can make 1 tank. With the starport, Terran denies mobile detection with vikings. The Mine/banshee/viking combination with 1 tank to clean up static structures is just too good. The Terran would at least be able to prevent a third base from going up until the mid-game starts and would have already made is own third, and the Zerg will not be able to do much without their economy. Swarm hosts don't help much either, as a good number of widowmines can kill off the locusts, and banshees can kill off the swarm hosts with scan. Runbys become impossible to do; 2 mines can destroy 20 zerglings when positioned right. Widowmines also reduce the mobility and map control of the Zerg army, something it cannot do without. Why do burrowed banelings even exist anymore? Just let the zergling morph into a widowmine and we'll call it even.
Hm, that was a long rant, but I hope you get my point. Widowmines are too good at their job, even surpassing other units in their roles. The thing should and will get nerfed. I'll be waiting.
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On October 12 2012 09:35 StandAloneComplex wrote:
Just give it an activationdelay, where the mine is visible (it blinks red or opens its shell) for the enemy, when the enemy gets in range , 1 sec. or less . And if the enemy reacts very quick and pulls his unit away in time , it deactivates again. That solves all the problems. Drops and cloacked harass , is then possible and airplay also. If the delay is short enough , than the unit is still very usefull , but without its opdness in some situations.And if you activate the mine manually and wait until the enemy unit is on top of the mine, then its very difficult to get away for the enemy, even with an delay after activation.
+lower its hp to 50 (they shoud not be able to walk rigth into the enemy and then burrow in the enemys army)
and take away the detectorability
I think this is actually a really good idea. That way the attacking player still has a chance to save their drop, cloaked unit, or harassment force if they are paying attention at that moment but they still can't go there without losing the unit... the terran still has control of the area. It also creates the opportunity for something similar to zealots dragging spider mines.
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Someone needs to layout how each race is 'meant' to deal with mines before they can really be balanced.
Ok, we know they are intended to control space for a meching player, but obviously the other race (or even a non mech'ing terran) need a method of dealing with them, so lay it out.
Are you meant to get detection and clean them up with long range units? Flying units? "Free" energy units (like infested terran)?
If the intention is that protoss clean them up with obs + colossus then why the hell can terran get them so early and so cheap?
If the answer for zerg is to use hydras to clean them out, then why are they range 5, which means you need a hydra range upgrade + speed upgrade or getting creep slowly close enough that the hydras don't get sniped.
If you are inteded to be able to kill them before burrow with lings then maybe they have too many hp?
How many shots from a single stalker 'should' it take to kill a mine?
Should it be light since everything that has damage vs light has 5 range or less?
What should 1, 2 or 5 mines be capable of? how much resources and production time should it take to 'lockdown' an area of the map? No one seems to be outlining the parameters of what a widow mine should be able to do so I don't see how you can make an arguement for nerfing or buffing or whatever.
I mean, look at this quote from a post above me Now the main purpose of the mine is to deny early aggression, and big deathballs moving across the map.. Early aggression, (small groups of units) and big deathballs (commonly known as mid to end game). Basically what he saying is that the main purpose of the mine is to win the game at any stage vs all types of armies. I'm not even picking on him, this thread is full of ideas to buff and nerf with no explanation of how each race is meant to deal with the threat or how the poster envisions the widow mine working for the player building them.
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not the popular idea here, But take it out of the game its not needed....
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United States7483 Posts
On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2.
So DT's should essentially be a useless investment in PvT because your opponent decided to play mech? Should the mines be able to deal with everything? If so, isn't that a freaking terrible game design? Why build turrets anymore, the mines will deal with DT's and kill air! If he goes phoenix, mines! VR? Mines! DT's? Mines! Heavy gateway attack? Make sure we've got some mines!
You don't even need to scout at that point.
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burrow time incrase and make it so it cannot unburrow while on cooldown.
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On October 12 2012 12:07 HeeroFX wrote:
not the popular idea here, But take it out of the game its not needed....
Yeah I heavily disagree with you. I think the widow rocket (it's not a mine anymore this is my new name of it) is a great concept. I would rather it be an actual mine then a rocket but either way it's a type of unit terran needs to go mech in tvp at least. I would like to see mech viable tvp and I think the widow rocket is a great way to make it viable.
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this would make the early game shenangins much easier to stop while still keep it powerful enough to control space and buffer your tank lines for those awesome BroodWar esque slow pushes.
To be honest I have never seen this done in sc2 EVER, and I don't think we will ever, because there is neither a need to do it, nor a benefit.
instead people just push across them map with everything and have some spotter units at the front and then just siege everything when they see the opponents deathball approaching.
Other than that I guess reducing the range a little bit would be fine.
However I don't think it's a good idea to give it very low hp, especially not in addition to less range.
After all it's still a 2 supply unit that either can't move or can't attack.
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On October 12 2012 14:30 Ai.Cola wrote:Show nested quote +this would make the early game shenangins much easier to stop while still keep it powerful enough to control space and buffer your tank lines for those awesome BroodWar esque slow pushes. To be honest I have never seen this done in sc2 EVER, and I don't think we will ever, because there is neither a need to do it, nor a benefit. instead people just push across them map with everything and have some spotter units at the front and then just siege everything when they see the opponents deathball approaching. Other than that I guess reducing the range a little bit would be fine. However I don't think it's a good idea to give it very low hp, especially not in addition to less range. After all it's still a 2 supply unit that either can't move or can't attack.
Thorzain did this and became the SPOON.
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Alright, lets define "broodwar style slowpush"
Thorzain uses mass marines mixed with tanks to "slowpush" across the map, but I assumed we were talking about broodwar mech against protoss, with turrets going up and minefields placed and then destroyed and slowly taking space on the map, pushing towards the protoss base.
this just doesn't happen and even thorzain probably pushes across half the map or more and then places his tanks and slowly moves some forward.
PS: What does it mean to "become the SPOON"?
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On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth.
You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope.
Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too.
The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it.
We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range.
Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable.
I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced.
So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it.
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On October 12 2012 12:09 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. So DT's should essentially be a useless investment in PvT because your opponent decided to play mech? Should the mines be able to deal with everything? If so, isn't that a freaking terrible game design? Why build turrets anymore, the mines will deal with DT's and kill air! If he goes phoenix, mines! VR? Mines! DT's? Mines! Heavy gateway attack? Make sure we've got some mines! You don't even need to scout at that point.
They aren't useless, there are these flying things called warp prisms that can allow you to drop them in your opponent's base. Also, you realize if you really want to do a game-ending type of DT build, you can bring a few units with you, even a probe or two, trigger the mines -> use DTS.
They are easily usable still, it's just now you won't get as many freewin games from DT usage, is that a problem for you?
You're acting like mines are literally everywhere on every point on the map, and that's simply not the case. Also, turrets are still built, just later on to build turret rings to deal with warp prisms.
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On October 12 2012 15:01 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth. You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope. Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too. The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it. We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range. Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable. I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced. So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it.
Sorry it's a bit retarded that the only zerg units that can kill a widow rocket are a hydra with range upgrade and swarmhosts, well broodlords to. Roaches can't, hydras have to have range upgrade so you can't even kill widow rockets unless you have swarm hosts.
I know you think widow mines are fine (which imo proves they are actually somewhat broken). The fact that they counter air is an absolute joke. The very threat of a widow mine pretty much makes going mutalisks a nono just because a few widow mine in terrans main + third and mutas will run right over them and die instantly.
At the very least the range needs a reduction, I should be able to KILL A WIDOW MINE/ROCKET without losing a unit if I have detection of it. I should be able to have detection and send in a group of roaches to kill it rather then sacrificing units no matter what to be able to kill it.
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On October 12 2012 15:01 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth. You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope. Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too. The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it. We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range. Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable. I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced. So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it.
I actually have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about, I have ~400 games of beta under my belt with 40-50 or so since the last patch. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
I've been playing sc in one form or another since 2002, you're not the only guy who has played Brood War, Mines in BW didn't hit air, had 25 hp and a shorter range (3). So they were actually pretty damn easy to clear out.
I shouldn't be able to run mines right past static D and burrow them in mineral lines or make only mines to hold off any allin ever. Its just too good at the moment, it makes games so easy.
You're biased because:
biasedpast participle, past tense of bi·as (Verb)
Verb:
Show prejudice for or against (someone or something) unfairly
Influence unfairly to invoke favoritism
thats how you have viewed terran since WoL beta, but there is no point in trying to get sense through your thick skull so from here forward I'm going ignore your posts lest you have something useful to say.
On October 12 2012 09:35 StandAloneComplex wrote:
Just give it an activationdelay, where the mine is visible (it blinks red or opens its shell) for the enemy, when the enemy gets in range , 1 sec. or less . And if the enemy reacts very quick and pulls his unit away in time , it deactivates again. That solves all the problems. Drops and cloacked harass , is then possible and airplay also. If the delay is short enough , than the unit is still very usefull , but without its opdness in some situations.And if you activate the mine manually and wait until the enemy unit is on top of the mine, then its very difficult to get away for the enemy, even with an delay after activation.
+lower its hp to 50 (they shoud not be able to walk rigth into the enemy and then burrow in the enemys army)
and take away the detectorability
So far I like this idea the most tbh, Spider mines in BW had the same thing kind of, they made that little sound and they would jump but if you ran away quick enough they sunk back in the ground. Yeah with this change the range would be fine at 5 I think. Going to post this on the b.net forums :D
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Nerfing range would be a horrible idea imo. Right now you can have little doubt that the widow mine is very strong in early/mid game, however especially when people learn to deal with them, in late game they dont add that much. One of the core ideas was that it would be used to defend expos for example, if you nerf their range to numbers some people here want (so less than roach range), you would need so many, each 2 population, that you simply just cant spare the population from your main army.
Activation delay is then a way better solution, but please make it for example dependant on the range the unit is from the mine, so the closer you are, the shorter the delay. Or at least make sure that it wont kill the entire terran marine line when zealots charge in while dragging mines.
Before people tell me I should then learn to micro, that would be a valid argument if in this case the toss also had to micro, and not just a-move his zealots. If the toss had to do something to drag the mines along (in my above example as a solution it would be on purpose moving through the outer edge of mine activation radius), then I would be completely happy terrans have to do something to prevent that from killing their units.
In the end I consider the demands that you should be able to a-move your roaches across a minefield with an overseer tasked to follow them stupid. Then you really will limit mines to early game contain and some cheeses. Fine if that is your goal, but I would like to see mines with a bit more depth. Oh and lets not forget, just like pretty much everything in SC2, you can also kill them with infestors (fungal if you got too much energy, otherwise just use an infested terran to trigger the mine. Actually I could live with it if fungal prevents the mine from firing, but only when fungal itself has been nerfed first). Or you let a queen trigger it and then transfuse the queen. Or you just sacrifise some lings.
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Sometimes I feel people are way too quick to call for the nerfbat.
Just look back at things like the ghost nerf(s) and what they did to ghost play in tvz.
Hots should bring new elements to the gameplay. Powerfull tools to make your opponent think twice when, where and how to engage. The new widowmine seems to do so.
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The widow mine is at a perfect spot of "perfect game design"
It forces unit diversity, it forces player awareness on their army movements and it forces player's strategic decisions.
Unit diversity, more Zergs are producing hydras to deal with minefields, more Protoss are producing more than one observer and Terran are more conservative with their MULES.  Viewers find it interesting.
Player interaction, everyone can't mass up army against Terran, a-move while macroing. Viewers find more excitement.
(AHMERGERD, idra wasn't looking at his army and now almost now all are in the red after having stepped on some mines!)
Player strategic decisions, number of widow mines (too may and lose to hydra/infestor/overseer, placement of widow mines (clumped, spaced, etc), to include widow mines in army or exclude, etc. Viewers find the depth from the strategic decisions interesting.
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I play Zerg.
I've been reading this thread and seeing multiple times other Zergs saying only hydra/swarm host and broodlords are the only stuff that kills the mines without dying.
But really, early game you can always send 1 ling to bait the mines and mid game infested terrans.
I've met quite a few extreme mine users (not saying they are really good) and after a few games I figure out how to just go fxxk and kill them.
there really function somewhat like a hellion......they only kill you when you're under prepared.
it is just instead of destroying your economy they kill your army, ultimately they are map control unit and cannot hold off a army by itself. they are here to slow your pushes, to buy time.
i personally think they are powerful, useful and most importantly extremely fun to play against (and i imagine it is fun as well to play with them). though i thing i don't understand is why do they detect cloak? that doesn't really make sense to me and i don't feel like they need it.
microing against a mine that you know might be there (not to mention you might know it IS there) isn't harder than engaging a ling/bling battle. after all mines can't move or dodge, can they?
before any changes, they definitely deserve more testing. and people need to try harder before claiming it is OP
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On October 12 2012 03:51 Grendel wrote:
Imo range is fine.
What I think is needed: like you said hit points. But also:
- Burrow time increased
- Reduced splash to 35
- Unable to detect cloaked units.
I think with these parameters altered it would be a good unit.
yeah and then it will become useless...no tnx
in my opinion they need just to lower the hitpoint to 55(previous one) and mines will be okish
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Seeing how mines kill observers, I'd suggest making them only detect ground units, so protoss has a way of dealing with them without having to babysit their observers like crazy.
It would also make sense lore-wise Spiders can feel the ground shaking and know there's prey etc. So it would only make sense they could do that. But that's just fluff. You gotta do what is good for design
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On October 12 2012 15:01 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth. You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope. Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too. The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it. We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range. Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable. I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced. So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it.
sadly...the new generation of gamers are too much accustomed to easy things,
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Definitely increase burrow time or/and decrease HP.
Just to make it harder to just run into opponent base.
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Setting it so cloaked units only take the 40 splash damage would be fair - the unit is cloaked, so it's reasonable to assume that the mine can't directly target it (it should still do 160 if the unit is being revealed). This way, they would act as a warning that something cloaked is around, but the other player won't instantly lose their (likely) expensive harass cloaked unit, they will just suffer some damage. This will also give away both the location of the widow mine and the fact that their are widow mines in play, which means the harass isn't completely nullified by the mines and still has a chance to do some damage, and knows the location of the first mine so it can avoid it on the way out.
Toss will still have to be careful with observers, but obs can see the mine so it's possibly reasonable to say that it's their own fault if they lose them. Otherwise, some slight numbers tweaking could be okay.
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Bit of a useless thread TBH. Not only do "we" state with absolute certainty that the mine is OP, after a few days of playing, but "we" know how to fix it.
Something that i think a few people are confused about is the "status" of the unit. The Widow Mine is much more like a SwarmH or Lurker then a BW spider mine. It cost supply,gas, has a build time and positioning considerations. It's not "broken" if you might loose units even if you have detection (just like with lurkers...or any cloaked unit).
Now i would rather it be like a spider mine (no supply and easier to kill), but that is not what Blizzard wants. The point is, you can't expect it to have the same weaknesses as a BW mine but have the cost of an actual unit (supply, build time).
The only possible problem it might have right now is a need for better early game detection from Z/P, and Blizzard commented on that.
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Nerf nothing until zerg and protoss players have figured out how the hell to split their units and stop deathballing around the map, followed immediately by streams of complaints when widow mines one shot their units.
So DT's should essentially be a useless investment in PvT because your opponent decided to play mech? Should the mines be able to deal with everything? If so, isn't that a freaking terrible game design? Why build turrets anymore, the mines will deal with DT's and kill air! If he goes phoenix, mines! VR? Mines! DT's? Mines! Heavy gateway attack? Make sure we've got some mines!
You don't even need to scout at that point.
Except the mines are stationary and you're attacking into a terran who has basically committed a large amount of supply, time and money into building static defenses.
So yeah. Your DTs should probably be ineffective. No, I shouldn't have to scout it. Why should you have an innate advantage with a BS unit when the only effort you have made is to wall off your ramp, put a zealot on it to stop SCV runbys and hidden the Dark Shrine in the sunken corner of your base. Double gas can mean any number of ridiculous protoss all ins.
I have a unit that can do exactly the same thing already, by the way. It's called an Orbital Command.
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I honestly feel that a design change is more in place than balance of the unit, especially at this stage of the beta. My suggestion is to first of all remove the targeting of cloaked units, it doesn't make sense and even must feel weird to have it target units that you yourself (as the Terran Commander) have never even seen!
My next and biggest suggestion is to remove the invisibility while recharging the Unstable Payload. Then the cooldown on this can be reduced, but most importantly this would shift the focus of Widow Mines to only defending your base or key locations or as support of your main army. No more running them into your enemy's main and hoping to kill 6 workers, followed by that awkward period of slowly getting detection to deal with it.
Lastly, as I sit here thinking about it, maybe a different anti air attack than the Unstable Payload, for instance a Goliath-like attack against air might be good, the Unstable Payload attack seems like it would be too coinflippy against air units. If someone knows there will be Widow Mine defense, he can send a single unit in first, then he has a 40 second window. Or he doesn't know there is defense and loses most of his harassing group of units.
Edit: Disclaimer: I would like to clarify I am not in the beta ( ) and this is theory crafting. I have on the other hand watched a LOT of games and streams on HotS. These are just my 2 cents from unit design perspective.
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On October 12 2012 23:52 Illiterate wrote:
I honestly feel that a design change is more in place than balance of the unit, especially at this stage of the beta. My suggestion is to first of all remove the targeting of cloaked units, it doesn't make sense and even must feel weird to have it target units that you yourself (as the Terran Commander) have never even seen!
My next and biggest suggestion is to remove the invisibility while recharging the Unstable Payload. Then the cooldown on this can be reduced, but most importantly this would shift the focus of Widow Mines to only defending your base or key locations or as support of your main army. No more running them into your enemy's main and hoping to kill 6 workers, followed by that awkward period of slowly getting detection to deal with it.
Lastly, as I sit here thinking about it, maybe a different anti air attack than the Unstable Payload, for instance a Goliath-like attack against air might be good, the Unstable Payload attack seems like it would be too coinflippy against air units. If someone knows there will be Widow Mine defense, he can send a single unit in first, then he has a 40 second window. Or he doesn't know there is defense and loses most of his harassing group of units.
No offence but if you're letting mines run into your mineral line then you aren't:
A - building units anywhere near early enough (meaning stop being a greedy bastard)
B - paying anything like as much attention as you should be
It's also not coinflippy against air units. Stop thinking that you can easily waltz mutalisks into the base of a terran and be more careful how you group your units up. Widow mines exist to make protoss and zerg wake the hell up and do what terrans have been doing for 2 years now - splitting your damn units and making sure your bases are defended.
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No longer targets air .. other than that is fine.
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On October 13 2012 02:16 InVerno wrote:
No longer targets air .. other than that is fine.
this, so much this... harassing a terran is so stupidly risk now.
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make it not hit air (every harrass is shutdown supereasy and supercost efficient: no more banshee TvT, no more mutas ZvT and new stargate openings PvT vs mech will also not be viable).
make it not hit cloaked units (again every harrass is shutdown supereasy and supercost efficient)
keep the rest of the then still superstrong antiground spacecontrol mine it is supposed to be.
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I agree with not targeting air, but if this is removed then I think targeting cloaked is fine since mines taking out obs and banshees is no longer possible, and DT rushing was never that good of a strategy anyway.
Other than that, it needs an HP nerf and a burrow time increase so it's harder to just charge into the enemy base or army, burrow, and kill everything.
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On October 12 2012 15:14 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 15:01 avilo wrote:On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth. You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope. Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too. The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it. We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range. Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable. I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced. So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it. Sorry it's a bit retarded that the only zerg units that can kill a widow rocket are a hydra with range upgrade and swarmhosts, well broodlords to. Roaches can't, hydras have to have range upgrade so you can't even kill widow rockets unless you have swarm hosts. I know you think widow mines are fine (which imo proves they are actually somewhat broken). The fact that they counter air is an absolute joke. The very threat of a widow mine pretty much makes going mutalisks a nono just because a few widow mine in terrans main + third and mutas will run right over them and die instantly. At the very least the range needs a reduction, I should be able to KILL A WIDOW MINE/ROCKET without losing a unit if I have detection of it. I should be able to have detection and send in a group of roaches to kill it rather then sacrificing units no matter what to be able to kill it.
Basic zerglings and roaches can kill widow mines as well. You just don't run 30 in at once. Not that hard of a concept!
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On October 12 2012 15:43 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 15:01 avilo wrote:On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth. You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope. Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too. The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it. We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range. Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable. I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced. So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it. I actually have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about, I have ~400 games of beta under my belt with 40-50 or so since the last patch. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I've been playing sc in one form or another since 2002, you're not the only guy who has played Brood War, Mines in BW didn't hit air, had 25 hp and a shorter range (3). So they were actually pretty damn easy to clear out. I shouldn't be able to run mines right past static D and burrow them in mineral lines or make only mines to hold off any allin ever. Its just too good at the moment, it makes games so easy. You're biased because: biasedpast participle, past tense of bi·as (Verb) Verb: Show prejudice for or against (someone or something) unfairly Influence unfairly to invoke favoritism thats how you have viewed terran since WoL beta, but there is no point in trying to get sense through your thick skull so from here forward I'm going ignore your posts lest you have something useful to say. Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:35 StandAloneComplex wrote:
Just give it an activationdelay, where the mine is visible (it blinks red or opens its shell) for the enemy, when the enemy gets in range , 1 sec. or less . And if the enemy reacts very quick and pulls his unit away in time , it deactivates again. That solves all the problems. Drops and cloacked harass , is then possible and airplay also. If the delay is short enough , than the unit is still very usefull , but without its opdness in some situations.And if you activate the mine manually and wait until the enemy unit is on top of the mine, then its very difficult to get away for the enemy, even with an delay after activation.
+lower its hp to 50 (they shoud not be able to walk rigth into the enemy and then burrow in the enemys army)
and take away the detectorability So far I like this idea the most tbh, Spider mines in BW had the same thing kind of, they made that little sound and they would jump but if you ran away quick enough they sunk back in the ground. Yeah with this change the range would be fine at 5 I think. Going to post this on the b.net forums :D
I would suggest you load up brood war, and try out the spider mines. They're way better than widow mines, and people learned to play with them and against them.
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On October 12 2012 17:44 fish83814 wrote:
I play Zerg.
I've been reading this thread and seeing multiple times other Zergs saying only hydra/swarm host and broodlords are the only stuff that kills the mines without dying.
But really, early game you can always send 1 ling to bait the mines and mid game infested terrans.
I've met quite a few extreme mine users (not saying they are really good) and after a few games I figure out how to just go fxxk and kill them.
there really function somewhat like a hellion......they only kill you when you're under prepared.
it is just instead of destroying your economy they kill your army, ultimately they are map control unit and cannot hold off a army by itself. they are here to slow your pushes, to buy time.
i personally think they are powerful, useful and most importantly extremely fun to play against (and i imagine it is fun as well to play with them). though i thing i don't understand is why do they detect cloak? that doesn't really make sense to me and i don't feel like they need it.
microing against a mine that you know might be there (not to mention you might know it IS there) isn't harder than engaging a ling/bling battle. after all mines can't move or dodge, can they?
before any changes, they definitely deserve more testing. and people need to try harder before claiming it is OP
Exactly. Out of all of the games I have played so far vs Zerg, i have played a total of, get this, two zerg players that sent in lings 1 by 1 like in ZvZ ling/bane wars. They had about 30 lings, i had 6 widow mines, and he sent in lings 1 by 1 until all of the mines were on recharge and ran in with the rest of his lings delaying my expo for quite a bit.
Every other Zerg i've played 1A'd roaches or 20+ lings and died to like 4 mines and then yelled "fucking imba OP shit" in the chat and left the game lol.
People have no right to complain when there are so few people even doing this yet. It's actually possible to do a full on ling baneling bust against someone that has pure widow mines and straight up kill them if you do it properly.
The difference? Now the Zerg cannot 1A into the Terran's natural with a build order win, which I assume is frustrating for a lot of players used to wings of liberty that are used to coin flip build order wins requiring little micro.
On October 12 2012 18:44 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 15:01 avilo wrote:On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth. You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope. Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too. The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it. We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range. Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable. I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced. So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it. sadly...the new generation of gamers are too much accustomed to easy things,
Indeed they are. The irony is that everyone wants SC2 HOTS to be more difficult than wings of liberty, and then when they get what they asked for they realized "oh shit, this game is going to have a higher skill cap, that's bad for me personally because i have to get better."
Is it better for the overall game and spectators that the game become more difficult? Hell yes.
So i'm sorry guys, i'm sorry that you cannot just 1A into swarmhosts in HOTS and expect to win with zero micro/sense of timing. I'm sorry that you can't just 1A to kill tempests that are protected by other units, and that you may have to use a lot of brain power to figure out how to break such a unit. I'm sorry that you cannot just 1A across the map anymore sometimes and just kill Terran without microing. Boo Hoo
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lol seems like YOU are the one that wants an easier game. widow mines denying runbys, air and cloak harrass and being able to instaburrow offensively. that takes so much skill away from the terran side its not even funny.
the widow mine is supposed to be a space control unit and if you remove air + cloak hit and make burrowtime to 6-8 seconds it is still superawesome as space control and antirunby unit.
the problem with hitting air and cloak is that terran just can build either blindly or after scouting some widow mines that now hardcountered the SUPEREXPENSIVE air or cloak tech of the opponent. thats obviously bad game design and should therefore be removed.
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Poll: Will the Widow Mine get nerfed in the next patch?No (11) 58% Yes (8) 42% 19 total votes Your vote: Will the Widow Mine get nerfed in the next patch? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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On October 13 2012 03:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:Poll: Will the Widow Mine get nerfed in the next patch?No (11) 58% Yes (8) 42% 19 total votes Your vote: Will the Widow Mine get nerfed in the next patch? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
No need for poll. Nerf will be there for sure.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5616041909#8
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Removing It's AA attack would balance it. Then maybe they can add another mech AA unit.
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On October 13 2012 05:00 Zorgaz wrote:
Removing It's AA attack would balance it. Then maybe they can add another mech AA unit.
Viking? It's already here.
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I can't say much about the other aspects of widow mines but their anti-air capabilities are clearly broken. Air harassment units (including drops) are reliable offensive options that a better skilled player or race can make use of regardless of terrain. Good luck if you nerf them (indirectly), you will get a stale map pool to fix racial balance artificially.
Few alternatives:
- Remove AA of widow mines
- Improve movespeed of obs, overseer, ravens. This will hurt the dynamics of other burrowed/cloaked units.
- Nerf just its anti-air damage
- Maybe make anti-air similar to HSM. Opponents get punished for shift queuing. But they can avoid damage if they pay attention to their units, also buying some time for terran to reposition his defences.
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I think the anti-air widow mine is an interesting experiment. However, in the end I think it is a poor idea. All the factory needs is a normal, boring, effective anti-air unit. A 2 supply goliath that does about 12-14 ground-to-air dps would be sufficient. No frills, no gimmicks, no special abilities. Just a good ground to air shooter with a mediocre ground combat efficiency.
The mine is EXTREMELY all-or-nothing. The threat of the mine is, in many ways, more significant than the actual mine. Two or three mines can completely obliterate an almost unlimited number of mutalisks. Terran anti-air was very dependent on the marine before, and was otherwise weak. But the mine is too unstable, too all-or-nothing, and just too weird to function as a real anti-air unit.
The goliath and the viking would not conflict for the simple reason that one is a ground unit that shoots air, and the other is an air unit that shoots air. Case in point: there is a huge difference in TvT between the Tank+Viking player and the Tank+Goliath player. Tanks can hit goliaths, but goliaths can hit vikings with impunity.
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On October 13 2012 08:03 ledarsi wrote:
I think the anti-air widow mine is an interesting experiment. However, in the end I think it is a poor idea. All the factory needs is a normal, boring, effective anti-air unit. A 2 supply goliath that does about 12-14 ground-to-air dps would be sufficient. No frills, no gimmicks, no special abilities. Just a good ground to air shooter with a mediocre ground combat efficiency.
The mine is EXTREMELY all-or-nothing. The threat of the mine is, in many ways, more significant than the actual mine. Two or three mines can completely obliterate an almost unlimited number of mutalisks. Terran anti-air was very dependent on the marine before, and was otherwise weak. But the mine is too unstable, too all-or-nothing, and just too weird to function as a real anti-air unit.
The goliath and the viking would not conflict for the simple reason that one is a ground unit that shoots air, and the other is an air unit that shoots air. Case in point: there is a huge difference in TvT between the Tank+Viking player and the Tank+Goliath player. Tanks can hit goliaths, but goliaths can hit vikings with impunity.
if terran gets another AA from factory, viking needs a little nerf because it already destroy any air composition protoss can use.
or they could just do something about the thor so it can be a viable AA from factory in the TvP matchup
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Activation time is now 3 sec delay.
This means small numbers speedlings and hellions will be able to run past the widow mines w/o triggering.
Nerfs poor mine placement, but buffs smart mine placement as opponent may not realize he's in a mine field until he engages on top of one.
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Since the biggest issue with the Widow Mines seems to be the early mid game pressure, would it be reasonable to make the WMs rearm in 5s (or 3 or 8 or whatever) but be visible during this short time?
I personally dislike that they are trying to solve this issue messing up with P/Z's detection.
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On October 13 2012 17:28 Kaleidos wrote:
Since the biggest issue with the Widow Mines seems to be the early mid game pressure, would it be reasonable to make the WMs rearm in 5s (or 3 or 8 or whatever) but be visible during this short time?
I personally dislike that they are trying to solve this issue messing up with P/Z's detection.
exactly. why make ALL cloak/air play worse because the mine is way too strong? just nerf the mine and make it not hit air and cloaked units. its such an easy fix, hope they´ll do it in future patch.
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so why are these mines OP but infestors aren't?
infestors can also burrow and remain hidden, on top of that they can move around whilst burrowed
range of fungal is better than range of rocket
fungal also hits air and cloaked
primary target doesn't receive 160 damage, but with chaining you'll get there, splash damage is the same to armored, 10 less to other units (but again, potential for chaining)
duration of restoring 75 energy is a bit more than widow mine recharging? However if you have 150 energy you can cast 2 immediately
infestor has other useful spells
can also be mass produced
it costs quite a bit more gas, takes 10 s longer to build and you need to unburrow to cast the fungals, but otherwise it seems better than the mine in every aspect? So why is everyone getting worked up over mines but infestors/fungal are fine?
genuine question btw, not trolling
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infestors cost 6 times the gas, are available 5-8 minutes later in the game, cant fungal while burrowed, do a lot less damage, most of the other zerg units suck (while terran was fine in WoL TvZ, mines are there to make TvP mech viable while TvZ is buffed and TvP bio with mines is buffed which is fine balancewise since Z/P gets new units too).
also infestors dont automatically kill banshees, DTs, phoenix, oracles, mutas etc.. you need apm, mapvision, a lot of energy etc. to kill air/cloaked units with infestors while with mines you just burrow them in places they can appear (basically at mineral lines or behind them) and you need 0 apm to be safe then.
problem with mine is its good vs everything AND superearly AND supercheap.
so either make them much much later in the game and a lot more expensive or make them not hit air and cloaked units and make burrow time much higher so you cant burrow in vision of enemy units and they cant even kill mines fast enough. the last one is a lot better in my opinion since otherwise DTs, banshees, mutas, oracles, drops and whatever other options is taken out of the game since it is way too risky to ever go for such an expensive tech if 4 mines for 100 gas counter your 400-1500 gas investment.
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On October 13 2012 18:04 Laurens wrote:
so why are these mines OP but infestors aren't?
infestors can also burrow and remain hidden, on top of that they can move around whilst burrowed
range of fungal is better than range of rocket
fungal also hits air and cloaked
primary target doesn't receive 160 damage, but with chaining you'll get there, splash damage is the same to armored, 10 less to other units (but again, potential for chaining)
duration of restoring 75 energy is a bit more than widow mine recharging? However if you have 150 energy you can cast 2 immediately
infestor has other useful spells
can also be mass produced
it costs quite a bit more gas, takes 10 s longer to build and you need to unburrow to cast the fungals, but otherwise it seems better than the mine in every aspect? So why is everyone getting worked up over mines but infestors/fungal are fine?
genuine question btw, not trolling
You have mines at 5-6 min mark. That's the first problem with WMs.
And who is sayin' infestors aren't OP ?!
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They should make the missile shots like scarabs this way its a bit more costly but you accrue the cost over time. 15 or 20 minerals a shot and you are good to go!
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Widow mines have several handicaps that can be abused to take them out, it just takes a bit of micro and patience:
In zvt, since widow mines cant hit structures, you can use 1 spine, 1 spore and creep tumours. It takes a lot of hellions totake out a spine and also several banshees to take out a spore, so keep them together with a queen a little behind to replace lost tumours and maybe transfuse.
In pvt, the new purify keeps them out of your mineral line if you respond in time, and you can go hunting for them with an obs clicked onto an immortal or stalker. If you're going to use a stalker, you probably want to get obs speed to give it a chance to catch up or only move in small increments (stalker move speed still slightly faster than speed obs).
In tvt, you can use 1 scv leading with a widow mine of your own. Due to the 40s cooldown, if you sac a unit, your own widow mine will get to kill the opponent's mine and live! Later on there's always marauder & raven or unsieged tank and raven.
Just requires micro to go minesweeping. People complained that WoL was a-move and boring. Now all races have something to micro against. Not sure about the air thing though. Would be better if there was something like a goliath that comes out of a factory and the mine lost its anti air.
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My take on getting this unit balanced, as oppossed to the free detection for everyone change in patch #6:
Reduce health to 50.
Burrow time +1 second (like what it is now in patvh #6).
The unit is visible for a split second after the missile has been fired. (this allows early mines to be destroyed without detection, but at a cost)
The Widow Mine weapon benefits from Mech Damage upgrades (+15 dmg per upgrade lvl).
The burrow time and visibility after firing can be negated via an upgrade that can be researched at a Factory Tech Lab for 100/100 at 110 seconds. (if that is still too early, add an Armory requirement)
As for the Mech Damage upgrades, this allows the Widow Mine to scale a bit better later on in the game.
At lvl 3 it would be able to one shot a Warp Prism, providing an effective late-game deterrent for the mobile Mech army against drops.
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+1. I like the scarb
Balance aside the best way to improve on the concept of the mine would be to have the "missiles" buildable and queueble within the unit itself. missile build times could around what the cooldown is now but the nice thing is that it adds some depth to the mines since you would have to choose how much to have to invest alone keep tabs on the mines themselves. Better yet you could not invest in the missles of the mine, have armyies travel past without any actions and later reactivate them. It would be interesting to see it balanced around having to build/fire missle one at a time vs build each slowly but add them as ammo to be release quickly with the downside of not being able to cancel built mines from the stock.
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The Burrow time is pretty significant, more than I thought it would be... After getting some (~15, used the mines in every game) games in, I can say that one second makes a pretty big difference. I'm glad Blizzard is taking time and care with this process. I still think they tank a little too well, but we'll see how things play out in the following week(s).
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On October 13 2012 19:33 hobbidude wrote:
+1. I like the scarb
Balance aside the best way to improve on the concept of the mine would be to have the "missiles" buildable and queueble within the unit itself. missile build times could around what the cooldown is now but the nice thing is that it adds some depth to the mines since you would have to choose how much to have to invest alone keep tabs on the mines themselves. Better yet you could not invest in the missles of the mine, have armyies travel past without any actions and later reactivate them. It would be interesting to see it balanced around having to build/fire missle one at a time vs build each slowly but add them as ammo to be release quickly with the downside of not being able to cancel built mines from the stock.
Not a bad idea, I was thinking maybe reduce the damage and make the build time shorter and then tack on a cost per missile like 15 or 20 minerals a piece. Build time should be long enough so that If you lose the mine with all 5 missiles queued it becomes a wasted investment but since it takes X length to rebuild your forced to prep the widow mine ahead of time to prepare for the attack.
At the same time the build time should be short enough on the missiles so that if you were queuing them mid battle, you could still get an extra few attacks in
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IMO remove this piece of shit and bring back Firebats and Spidermines.
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It makes me cringe when thinking this game is being balanced around this broken unit.
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On October 14 2012 09:16 GARcher wrote:
IMO remove this piece of shit and bring back Firebats and Spidermines.
dont agree on the firebat part. the hellion transformation is acutally the smart design/choice the made so far. bringing the firebat back in a different way that doesnt come from rax is quite interesting.
agree on mines/vultures.
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Widow mine imo is a bane to TvP but seems to be fine in the other matchups. TvT just becomes a mechfest because of it and now it's just annoying...
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It's only broken because it's an old, "new" mechanic.
They compliment siege tanks with extended range, banshees/marines/hellions as defense lines.
The patch is to fix widow mine rush.
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Avilo strikes again with his "un-biased" post
On October 12 2012 07:36 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
Don't nerf it at all, just buff other units...
LOL nice logic.
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I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther.
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There are three things in my mind that need to be addressed regarding the widow mine:
1. attacking cloaked units.
Widow mines shouldn't be able to attack cloaked units without detection.
2. attacking flying units
It's ok if widow mines attack flying units. However, they should not do splash damage if they can attack flying units. Flying units clump up very easily, so splash damage easily gets obscene against air units.
3. Being used offensively
Widow mines should not be able to be used offensively. Before this recent patch, I saw a lot of terran players running just pure widow mines up to an opponents army and just destroying it. The other player couldn't kill all the widow mines before they could burrow. Either make burrow time really long or lower the health of widow mines.
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On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther.
You seem to play below bronze level.
I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF?
What? Replays please.
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On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please.
Siege lines are SUPPOSED to be hard to break. That's the whole point of getting tanks. Unless of course you are playing against Bronze level players who leave their tanks unsupported.
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On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please.
So anyone who has trouble breaking down units that are DESIGNED to be hard to break down are below bronze level? I like your logic, it has no substance, just like your argument about widow mines. I hope other people can see through your charade and see that you're arguments are more about "even though it might be broken, don't nerf my race bro" mindset than anything else
On October 14 2012 16:17 GARcher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please. Siege lines are SUPPOSED to be hard to break. That's the whole point of getting tanks. Unless of course you are playing against Bronze level players who leave their tanks unsupported.
EXACTLY my point, thank you
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On October 14 2012 19:21 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please. So anyone who has trouble breaking down units that are DESIGNED to be hard to break down are below bronze level? I like your logic, it has no substance, just like your argument about widow mines. I hope other people can see through your charade and see that you're arguments are more about "even though it might be broken, don't nerf my race bro" mindset than anything else Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 16:17 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please. Siege lines are SUPPOSED to be hard to break. That's the whole point of getting tanks. Unless of course you are playing against Bronze level players who leave their tanks unsupported. EXACTLY my point, thank you
8 siege tank + insufficient no. of marines will straight up DIE to 16+ marauders/medivac with hellions cleaning up the marines.
The same unit composition will equally crush bunkers and PFs, that amount of 'rauders three shot a PF.
Happened to me many times and watched enough pro-streams to know that. Widow mines do not change this dynamic or reduce this composition's effectiveness unless they stim into a mine field.
Your argument is invalid.
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On October 14 2012 19:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 19:21 GhostOwl wrote:On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please. So anyone who has trouble breaking down units that are DESIGNED to be hard to break down are below bronze level? I like your logic, it has no substance, just like your argument about widow mines. I hope other people can see through your charade and see that you're arguments are more about "even though it might be broken, don't nerf my race bro" mindset than anything else On October 14 2012 16:17 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please. Siege lines are SUPPOSED to be hard to break. That's the whole point of getting tanks. Unless of course you are playing against Bronze level players who leave their tanks unsupported. EXACTLY my point, thank you 8 siege tank + insufficient no. of marines will straight up DIE to 16+ marauders/medivac with hellions "tanking". The same unit composition will equally crush bunkers and PFs, that amount of 'rauders three shot a PF. Happened to me many times and watched enough pro-streams to know that. Widow mines do not change this dynamic or reduce this composition's effectiveness unless they stim into a mine field. Your argument is invalid.
Are you serious?
8 Siege Tanks + insufficient number of marines = unsupported siege line. Plus 16 marauders and enough hellions to buffer damage is much more supply wise and resource wise compared to the Siege Tank composition.
16 marauders = 1600 minerals and 400 gas
Planetary = 550 min and 150 gas
Bunker = 100 min
Duh 16 marauders are going to kill these things. Might as well say 4 Roaches would kill 1 Zergling extremely efficiently.
And if you do scout that the opponent is Marauder heavy you'd get more Marines since Marauders have absolutely horrible DPS against non armoured units.
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On October 14 2012 19:44 GARcher wrote:
8 Siege Tanks + insufficient number of marines = unsupported siege line. Plus 16 marauders and enough hellions to buffer damage is much more supply wise and resource wise compared to the Siege Tank composition.
16 marauders = 1200 minerals and 400 gas
Planetary = 550 min and 150 gas
Bunker = 100 min
Duh 16 marauders are going to kill these things. Might as well say 4 Roaches would kill 1 Zergling extremely efficiently.
And if you do scout that the opponent is Marauder heavy you'd get more Marines since Marauders have absolutely horrible DPS against non armoured units.
You seem to have missed out some numbers. Your bias is showing.
16 marauders and 4 medivacs = 2000 minerals and 800 gas
8 Siege tanks = 1200 minerals and 1000 gas
Planetary = 550 min and 150 gas
Bunker = 100 min
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On October 14 2012 19:49 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 19:44 GARcher wrote:
8 Siege Tanks + insufficient number of marines = unsupported siege line. Plus 16 marauders and enough hellions to buffer damage is much more supply wise and resource wise compared to the Siege Tank composition.
16 marauders = 1200 minerals and 400 gas
Planetary = 550 min and 150 gas
Bunker = 100 min
Duh 16 marauders are going to kill these things. Might as well say 4 Roaches would kill 1 Zergling extremely efficiently.
And if you do scout that the opponent is Marauder heavy you'd get more Marines since Marauders have absolutely horrible DPS against non armoured units.
You seem to have missed out some numbers. Your bias is showing. 16 marauders and 4 medivacs = 2000 minerals and 800 gas 8 Siege tanks = 1200 minerals and 1000 gasPlanetary = 550 min and 150 gas Bunker = 100 min
16 Marauders + 4 medivac = 40 supply not counting your Hellions
8 Siege Tanks = 24 supply
Needs 16 marines to be even in supply without counting the Hellions.
16 marines isn't an inadequate number of marines.
Who do you think will win?
Keep wanking. Your lack of gameplay experience is showing.
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On October 14 2012 19:55 GARcher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 19:49 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 19:44 GARcher wrote:
8 Siege Tanks + insufficient number of marines = unsupported siege line. Plus 16 marauders and enough hellions to buffer damage is much more supply wise and resource wise compared to the Siege Tank composition.
16 marauders = 1200 minerals and 400 gas
Planetary = 550 min and 150 gas
Bunker = 100 min
Duh 16 marauders are going to kill these things. Might as well say 4 Roaches would kill 1 Zergling extremely efficiently.
And if you do scout that the opponent is Marauder heavy you'd get more Marines since Marauders have absolutely horrible DPS against non armoured units.
You seem to have missed out some numbers. Your bias is showing. 16 marauders and 4 medivacs = 2000 minerals and 800 gas 8 Siege tanks = 1200 minerals and 1000 gasPlanetary = 550 min and 150 gas Bunker = 100 min 16 Marauders + 4 medivac = 40 supply not counting your Hellions 8 Siege Tanks = 24 supply Needs 16 marines to be even in supply without counting the Hellions. 16 marines isn't an inadequate number of marines. Who do you think will win? Keep wanking. Your lack of gameplay experience is showing.
The ratios for marines in marine/tank/medivac comp to effectively beat a marauder/hellion/medivac is all least between four to six marines every 1 tank, that works out 32 marines at least. Assuming the marines focus on the marauders, that leaves the hellions to "line'em up" straight up and cut that number by half within the blue flame first salvo.
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Mech is already becoming non-viable in TvP on streams, Morrow would ban most of you if you made theses suggestions on his stream (specially anything about toss being weak). Mine is fine specially after this patch. if anything it is weak late game because alot of things outrages it.
Decreasing its range will kill the unit's viability even in early game, removing the anti air would mean it would be garbage compared to spider mines (that did 125 splash damage and were FREE) and would never be built if they costed supply & resources. I think Blizzard knows some folks are over reaching when they mentioned "lower level protoss players are complaining about gateway units".
Alot of zerg and protoss's think they can abuse terrans now that they got the warhound removed and both races are far more populated than terran so they can gang down opinions. This must not happen otherwise blizzard can have a 2 race system for all I care (WCS asia already has zero terrans).
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On October 14 2012 20:07 DaveVAH wrote:
Mech is already becoming non-viable in TvP on streams, Morrow would ban most of you if you made theses suggestions on his stream (specially anything about toss being weak). Mine is fine specially after this patch. if anything it is weak late game because alot of things outrages it.
Decreasing its range will kill the unit's viability even in early game, removing the anti air would mean it would be garbage compared to spider mines (that did 125 splash damage and were FREE) and would never be built if they costed supply & resources. I think Blizzard knows some folks are over reaching when they mentioned "lower level protoss players are complaining about gateway units".
Alot of zerg and protoss's think they can abuse terrans now that they got the warhound removed and both races are far more populated than terran so they can gang down opinions. This must not happen otherwise blizzard can have a 2 race system for all I care (WCS asia already has zero terrans).
Sorry mine needs some sort of early game nerf (idc if it gets a late game buff to compensate). In tvz at least right now terran gets complete map control until lair tech. Aka zerg can't do any aggression vs terran before the 9 minute mark (unless you are going like 4 minute lair lol). Widow rocket is incredibly powerful and if spread around the map at all zerg can't move out. You can run zerglings around to try and get them to fire (assuming terran doesn't have hellions nearby to stop that) but you won't know where any mines are nor can you counter it unless it's at your base thanks to the spore not needing evo.
They either need to make it so they can't come out so early or something as right now again terran gets complete map control, can take a third and have it established before zerg because we need detection to even be out on the map now.
Of course if blizzard allows overseers earlier or gives overlords detection then i'm all for that to, either way something needs to be done so that zerg can at least push out or if they want to, be aggressive before lair tech. As it is now zerg can't be aggressive due to widow rockets atm. You may think that's fine but it's dumb that terran can secure a third much easier and earlier then zerg without having to worry about a push to punish it ^^.
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On October 16 2012 17:20 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 20:07 DaveVAH wrote:
Mech is already becoming non-viable in TvP on streams, Morrow would ban most of you if you made theses suggestions on his stream (specially anything about toss being weak). Mine is fine specially after this patch. if anything it is weak late game because alot of things outrages it.
Decreasing its range will kill the unit's viability even in early game, removing the anti air would mean it would be garbage compared to spider mines (that did 125 splash damage and were FREE) and would never be built if they costed supply & resources. I think Blizzard knows some folks are over reaching when they mentioned "lower level protoss players are complaining about gateway units".
Alot of zerg and protoss's think they can abuse terrans now that they got the warhound removed and both races are far more populated than terran so they can gang down opinions. This must not happen otherwise blizzard can have a 2 race system for all I care (WCS asia already has zero terrans). Sorry mine needs some sort of early game nerf (idc if it gets a late game buff to compensate). In tvz at least right now terran gets complete map control until lair tech. Aka zerg can't do any aggression vs terran before the 9 minute mark (unless you are going like 4 minute lair lol). Widow rocket is incredibly powerful and if spread around the map at all zerg can't move out. You can run zerglings around to try and get them to fire (assuming terran doesn't have hellions nearby to stop that) but you won't know where any mines are nor can you counter it unless it's at your base thanks to the spore not needing evo. They either need to make it so they can't come out so early or something as right now again terran gets complete map control, can take a third and have it established before zerg because we need detection to even be out on the map now. Of course if blizzard allows overseers earlier or gives overlords detection then i'm all for that to, either way something needs to be done so that zerg can at least push out or if they want to, be aggressive before lair tech. As it is now zerg can't be aggressive due to widow rockets atm. You may think that's fine but it's dumb that terran can secure a third much easier and earlier then zerg without having to worry about a push to punish it ^^.
lol@ this post, a zerg whining about how terrans have lived the last patch in WoL.... Zerg can secure a third much easier and faster than terran due to queens / spines / spores / units, and now that terran can do THE SAME THING as zerg, it's now unfair?
As already said, the mine is strong but NOT OP because there are work arounds to counter it... if you want to harras with air, just send ONE mutalisk to scout, sacrifice it, then send your mutalisk ball and harras...
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On October 16 2012 18:21 yanot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 17:20 blade55555 wrote:On October 14 2012 20:07 DaveVAH wrote:
Mech is already becoming non-viable in TvP on streams, Morrow would ban most of you if you made theses suggestions on his stream (specially anything about toss being weak). Mine is fine specially after this patch. if anything it is weak late game because alot of things outrages it.
Decreasing its range will kill the unit's viability even in early game, removing the anti air would mean it would be garbage compared to spider mines (that did 125 splash damage and were FREE) and would never be built if they costed supply & resources. I think Blizzard knows some folks are over reaching when they mentioned "lower level protoss players are complaining about gateway units".
Alot of zerg and protoss's think they can abuse terrans now that they got the warhound removed and both races are far more populated than terran so they can gang down opinions. This must not happen otherwise blizzard can have a 2 race system for all I care (WCS asia already has zero terrans). Sorry mine needs some sort of early game nerf (idc if it gets a late game buff to compensate). In tvz at least right now terran gets complete map control until lair tech. Aka zerg can't do any aggression vs terran before the 9 minute mark (unless you are going like 4 minute lair lol). Widow rocket is incredibly powerful and if spread around the map at all zerg can't move out. You can run zerglings around to try and get them to fire (assuming terran doesn't have hellions nearby to stop that) but you won't know where any mines are nor can you counter it unless it's at your base thanks to the spore not needing evo. They either need to make it so they can't come out so early or something as right now again terran gets complete map control, can take a third and have it established before zerg because we need detection to even be out on the map now. Of course if blizzard allows overseers earlier or gives overlords detection then i'm all for that to, either way something needs to be done so that zerg can at least push out or if they want to, be aggressive before lair tech. As it is now zerg can't be aggressive due to widow rockets atm. You may think that's fine but it's dumb that terran can secure a third much easier and earlier then zerg without having to worry about a push to punish it ^^. lol@ this post, a zerg whining about how terrans have lived the last patch in WoL.... Zerg can secure a third much easier and faster than terran due to queens / spines / spores / units, and now that terran can do THE SAME THING as zerg, it's now unfair? As already said, the mine is strong but NOT OP because there are work arounds to counter it... if you want to harras with air, just send ONE mutalisk to scout, sacrifice it, then send your mutalisk ball and harras...
zerg needs to be one base or "half a base" up to be EVEN. if terran has 3rd before zerg, zerg is way behind.
and yes the mine is super OP right now because its early, cheap, single and AoE damage, shoots air and cloaked units and outranges every early game zerg unit. blizzard needs to give them a defined role and they hopefully choose that role to be a ground space control unit.
and no you cant send in one muta since the turret + mine combination doesnt care about 1 muta. the mine shouldnt counter cloak and air harrass since it should take skill to prevent that harrass and not a no-apm-unit thats good vs everything and available way too early and way too cheap for what it does.
- the mine needs to come a little later (so they dont have to make detection available super early and nerf DTs/banshees etc.)
- the mine needs to have longer burrow time (so you cant just runby defenses of opponent and burrow in his face and cant drop mines in mineral lines)
- the mine shouldnt hit air/cloak units (so it takes skill to counter harrass and not burrow 3 mines and be safe vs everything)
if the mine gets too bad after these changes just increase their splash radius and splash damage so they are better at controlling space which is their purpose.
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As a Protoss player, at my level of play (Bronze HOTS, Gold WOL) I don't think it needs a nerf. I can deal with them better than MMM Balls at the moment.
When I see them, I just start hunting around with hallucinated probes then kill some with 3 stalkers and an obs. I know that my opponent is probably turtling/macroing, or better yet, has made too much of them --If i'm gonna loose, its gonna be because I did not scout a well placed one instead of being rolled by MMM or a good drop which I have to say is more exciting.
Now, if ever there ever comes some Mass Widow Mine + Ravens + Viking build... then I would complain.
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On October 16 2012 18:53 Decendos wrote:
zerg needs to be one base or "half a base" up to be EVEN. if terran has 3rd before zerg, zerg is way behind.
and yes the mine is super OP right now because its early, cheap, single and AoE damage, shoots air and cloaked units and outranges every early game zerg unit. blizzard needs to give them a defined role and they hopefully choose that role to be a ground space control unit.
and no you cant send in one muta since the turret + mine combination doesnt care about 1 muta. the mine shouldnt counter cloak and air harrass since it should take skill to prevent that harrass and not a no-apm-unit thats good vs everything and available way too early and way too cheap for what it does.
- the mine needs to come a little later (so they dont have to make detection available super early and nerf DTs/banshees etc.)
- the mine needs to have longer burrow time (so you cant just runby defenses of opponent and burrow in his face and cant drop mines in mineral lines)
- the mine shouldnt hit air/cloak units (so it takes skill to counter harrass and not burrow 3 mines and be safe vs everything)
if the mine gets too bad after these changes just increase their splash radius and splash damage so they are better at controlling space which is their purpose.
If terran has 3rd "before" (and why should it be "before", more like at the same time btw) .... you take a fourth and are ahead again?
You think zerg will be harrassed a lot if a terran put 2 supply mines AND turrets at each base?
and why can't you sacrifice a muta to get the mine ? If he has mines & turrets, he has too much defense so you just back. You can sacrifice an over and scout too, and you can even use overlords to get mines. There are work arounds, just let enough time to players to find them all before crying OP OP
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On October 16 2012 19:23 yanot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 18:53 Decendos wrote:
zerg needs to be one base or "half a base" up to be EVEN. if terran has 3rd before zerg, zerg is way behind.
and yes the mine is super OP right now because its early, cheap, single and AoE damage, shoots air and cloaked units and outranges every early game zerg unit. blizzard needs to give them a defined role and they hopefully choose that role to be a ground space control unit.
and no you cant send in one muta since the turret + mine combination doesnt care about 1 muta. the mine shouldnt counter cloak and air harrass since it should take skill to prevent that harrass and not a no-apm-unit thats good vs everything and available way too early and way too cheap for what it does.
- the mine needs to come a little later (so they dont have to make detection available super early and nerf DTs/banshees etc.)
- the mine needs to have longer burrow time (so you cant just runby defenses of opponent and burrow in his face and cant drop mines in mineral lines)
- the mine shouldnt hit air/cloak units (so it takes skill to counter harrass and not burrow 3 mines and be safe vs everything)
if the mine gets too bad after these changes just increase their splash radius and splash damage so they are better at controlling space which is their purpose. If terran has 3rd "before" (and why should it be "before", more like at the same time btw) .... you take a fourth and are ahead again? You think zerg will be harrassed a lot if a terran put 2 supply mines AND turrets at each base? and why can't you sacrifice a muta to get the mine ? If he has mines & turrets, he has too much defense so you just back. You can sacrifice an over and scout too, and you can even use overlords to get mines. There are work arounds, just let enough time to players to find them all before crying OP OP
1 rax FE into 2x gas into factory into mines + 3rd CC has the 3rd A LOT earlier then the zerg player.
and no you cant get arund 1 turret and 1 mine in the mineral line with mutas. in WoL the T player needs units to defend once the zerg gets more than 15 or so mutas, in HOTS they just have 6 supply (= 1 min in each mineral line) or 75 gas to counter 1500 gas without no skill, no apm, not even a risk since they are so cheap and otherwise usable in case zerg dont commit to mutas.
i know why you like mines: its because there is no need for skill: no scouting needed before going mines, no apm needed to use them, no risk if you build them, antiair, anticloak and antiground so preventing all harrassment --> even less skill needed since you dont need map awareness, less multitasking etc.
an antieverything mine like it is right now takes A LOT of skill from playing terran and we want more skill in the game not less. its the same with entombed. every bronce player can entombed like a pro player which is superbad game design and will also be changed hopefully.
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I don't mind they buffing the mine damage, or anything else, but the air attack has to go away... My banshee build no longer works in TvT, and probably many other builds from Z/P too...
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On October 12 2012 03:51 Ljas wrote:
Alternatively, let's not bombard the devs with balance issues and let them make the general design of the units work first.
The devs approach balance so conservatively and step by step, but there's no need. The best solutions can be figured out in a discussion like this.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 16 2012 23:48 osiris17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 03:51 Ljas wrote:
Alternatively, let's not bombard the devs with balance issues and let them make the general design of the units work first. The devs approach balance so conservatively and step by step, but there's no need. The best solutions can be figured out in a discussion like this.
Wellk that's not entirely true. There's too much whining from everywhere for a discussion like this to work.
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I don't like the idea of earlier detection just because of the widow mine because it affects other things too like reducing the effects banshee and dt tech. I would much rather see scouting made easier to compensate this was already basically done with the free hallucination and I would just like to see a zerg version of it.
They said they wanted to experiment with an earlier widow mine so now it does not have the armory requirement.
There are many changes that could be done that would be faster than armory but still delay early widow mines that are used agressively.
I like the health going down but I think the range is fine the primary purpose of the mine being added in the first place is to help tvp mech and from the streams I watch a range decrease would hurt that even more. I would say that increasing the burrowtime would make more sense.
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I think the mine is fine just the way it is, as a P player it requires me to be more cautious about moving around the map, even though I have a mothership core and I have to be more careful with my observers. There is a whole new dimension to the game the current widow mine adds and its probably far too early to nerf it without adequate testing.
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just give the mine a delay fire.
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Reduction in hp and remove it's AA.
It can't/musn't remain in it's current form.
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remove it from the game
tvt is a huge joke
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On October 16 2012 18:21 yanot wrote:
lol@ this post, a zerg whining about how terrans have lived the last patch in WoL.... Zerg can secure a third much easier and faster than terran due to queens / spines / spores / units, and now that terran can do THE SAME THING as zerg, it's now unfair?
I don't think the game is balanced around all the races being able to do exactly the same thing, because of the inherent asymmetry of their design. (That's just a comment in general, I haven't played against the WM to talk about how it affects the game).
On October 16 2012 18:21 yanot wrote:
As already said, the mine is strong but NOT OP because there are work arounds to counter it... if you want to harras with air, just send ONE mutalisk to scout, sacrifice it, then send your mutalisk ball and harras...
Question: What happens when there's two WMs next to each other and you fly a Muta into their range? Do they both fire?
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EPT
