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No longer targets air .. other than that is fine.
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On October 13 2012 02:16 InVerno wrote:
No longer targets air .. other than that is fine.
this, so much this... harassing a terran is so stupidly risk now.
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make it not hit air (every harrass is shutdown supereasy and supercost efficient: no more banshee TvT, no more mutas ZvT and new stargate openings PvT vs mech will also not be viable).
make it not hit cloaked units (again every harrass is shutdown supereasy and supercost efficient)
keep the rest of the then still superstrong antiground spacecontrol mine it is supposed to be.
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I agree with not targeting air, but if this is removed then I think targeting cloaked is fine since mines taking out obs and banshees is no longer possible, and DT rushing was never that good of a strategy anyway.
Other than that, it needs an HP nerf and a burrow time increase so it's harder to just charge into the enemy base or army, burrow, and kill everything.
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On October 12 2012 15:14 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 15:01 avilo wrote:On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth. You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope. Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too. The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it. We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range. Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable. I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced. So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it. Sorry it's a bit retarded that the only zerg units that can kill a widow rocket are a hydra with range upgrade and swarmhosts, well broodlords to. Roaches can't, hydras have to have range upgrade so you can't even kill widow rockets unless you have swarm hosts. I know you think widow mines are fine (which imo proves they are actually somewhat broken). The fact that they counter air is an absolute joke. The very threat of a widow mine pretty much makes going mutalisks a nono just because a few widow mine in terrans main + third and mutas will run right over them and die instantly. At the very least the range needs a reduction, I should be able to KILL A WIDOW MINE/ROCKET without losing a unit if I have detection of it. I should be able to have detection and send in a group of roaches to kill it rather then sacrificing units no matter what to be able to kill it.
Basic zerglings and roaches can kill widow mines as well. You just don't run 30 in at once. Not that hard of a concept! 
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On October 12 2012 15:43 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 15:01 avilo wrote:On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth. You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope. Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too. The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it. We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range. Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable. I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced. So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it. I actually have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about, I have ~400 games of beta under my belt with 40-50 or so since the last patch. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I've been playing sc in one form or another since 2002, you're not the only guy who has played Brood War, Mines in BW didn't hit air, had 25 hp and a shorter range (3). So they were actually pretty damn easy to clear out. I shouldn't be able to run mines right past static D and burrow them in mineral lines or make only mines to hold off any allin ever. Its just too good at the moment, it makes games so easy. You're biased because: biasedpast participle, past tense of bi·as (Verb) Verb: Show prejudice for or against (someone or something) unfairly Influence unfairly to invoke favoritism thats how you have viewed terran since WoL beta, but there is no point in trying to get sense through your thick skull so from here forward I'm going ignore your posts lest you have something useful to say. Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:35 StandAloneComplex wrote:
Just give it an activationdelay, where the mine is visible (it blinks red or opens its shell) for the enemy, when the enemy gets in range , 1 sec. or less . And if the enemy reacts very quick and pulls his unit away in time , it deactivates again. That solves all the problems. Drops and cloacked harass , is then possible and airplay also. If the delay is short enough , than the unit is still very usefull , but without its opdness in some situations.And if you activate the mine manually and wait until the enemy unit is on top of the mine, then its very difficult to get away for the enemy, even with an delay after activation.
+lower its hp to 50 (they shoud not be able to walk rigth into the enemy and then burrow in the enemys army)
and take away the detectorability So far I like this idea the most tbh, Spider mines in BW had the same thing kind of, they made that little sound and they would jump but if you ran away quick enough they sunk back in the ground. Yeah with this change the range would be fine at 5 I think. Going to post this on the b.net forums :D
I would suggest you load up brood war, and try out the spider mines. They're way better than widow mines, and people learned to play with them and against them.
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On October 12 2012 17:44 fish83814 wrote:
I play Zerg.
I've been reading this thread and seeing multiple times other Zergs saying only hydra/swarm host and broodlords are the only stuff that kills the mines without dying.
But really, early game you can always send 1 ling to bait the mines and mid game infested terrans.
I've met quite a few extreme mine users (not saying they are really good) and after a few games I figure out how to just go fxxk and kill them.
there really function somewhat like a hellion......they only kill you when you're under prepared.
it is just instead of destroying your economy they kill your army, ultimately they are map control unit and cannot hold off a army by itself. they are here to slow your pushes, to buy time.
i personally think they are powerful, useful and most importantly extremely fun to play against (and i imagine it is fun as well to play with them). though i thing i don't understand is why do they detect cloak? that doesn't really make sense to me and i don't feel like they need it.
microing against a mine that you know might be there (not to mention you might know it IS there) isn't harder than engaging a ling/bling battle. after all mines can't move or dodge, can they?
before any changes, they definitely deserve more testing. and people need to try harder before claiming it is OP
Exactly. Out of all of the games I have played so far vs Zerg, i have played a total of, get this, two zerg players that sent in lings 1 by 1 like in ZvZ ling/bane wars. They had about 30 lings, i had 6 widow mines, and he sent in lings 1 by 1 until all of the mines were on recharge and ran in with the rest of his lings delaying my expo for quite a bit.
Every other Zerg i've played 1A'd roaches or 20+ lings and died to like 4 mines and then yelled "fucking imba OP shit" in the chat and left the game lol.
People have no right to complain when there are so few people even doing this yet. It's actually possible to do a full on ling baneling bust against someone that has pure widow mines and straight up kill them if you do it properly.
The difference? Now the Zerg cannot 1A into the Terran's natural with a build order win, which I assume is frustrating for a lot of players used to wings of liberty that are used to coin flip build order wins requiring little micro.
On October 12 2012 18:44 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 15:01 avilo wrote:On October 12 2012 09:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2. I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth. You have no idea what you're talking about. The mine is strong, no where near OP. Everyone knows it's become cost efficient now. Supply efficient...nope. Terran bias? My bias is the "I want this game to not suck" bias. If you guys keep asking them to nerf everything, we'll have swarm hosts nerfed more, oracle nerf, and very soon when people realize how good tempests are in lategame, everyone will say to nerf those too. The mine is not even close to OP. The only people that want it nerfed are the people that played 3 games and concluded it's too OP because they have no clue how to handle it. We've been through this already with wings of liberty. If you nerf every unit it's going to dumb down the game. Remember that poor lil guy the reaper? He got like triple nerfed at some point, and then indirectly nerfed through other unit buffs like roach range. Remember mech tvp wings of liberty? I'm sure you and others don't because that was nerfed to oblivion patch after patch until it was no longer usable. I would say, go load up brood war. Play with spider mines. See how OP as shit they are and see how much better brood war was than wings of liberty. I challenge anyone here claiming this mine is OP to go play brood war, and you'll see how much more OP shiot is in that game. Dark swarm? It makes your units literally invincible vs 90% Terran units but it was perfectly balanced. So no, after 4-5 days of this new widow mine design, it's not OP at all. I saw some BS replay casts from certain casters acting like the mine was OP as shit when really the opponent had no clue what they were doing against it. sadly...the new generation of gamers are too much accustomed to easy things,
Indeed they are. The irony is that everyone wants SC2 HOTS to be more difficult than wings of liberty, and then when they get what they asked for they realized "oh shit, this game is going to have a higher skill cap, that's bad for me personally because i have to get better."
Is it better for the overall game and spectators that the game become more difficult? Hell yes.
So i'm sorry guys, i'm sorry that you cannot just 1A into swarmhosts in HOTS and expect to win with zero micro/sense of timing. I'm sorry that you can't just 1A to kill tempests that are protected by other units, and that you may have to use a lot of brain power to figure out how to break such a unit. I'm sorry that you cannot just 1A across the map anymore sometimes and just kill Terran without microing. Boo Hoo 
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lol seems like YOU are the one that wants an easier game. widow mines denying runbys, air and cloak harrass and being able to instaburrow offensively. that takes so much skill away from the terran side its not even funny.
the widow mine is supposed to be a space control unit and if you remove air + cloak hit and make burrowtime to 6-8 seconds it is still superawesome as space control and antirunby unit.
the problem with hitting air and cloak is that terran just can build either blindly or after scouting some widow mines that now hardcountered the SUPEREXPENSIVE air or cloak tech of the opponent. thats obviously bad game design and should therefore be removed.
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Poll: Will the Widow Mine get nerfed in the next patch?No (11) 58% Yes (8) 42% 19 total votes Your vote: Will the Widow Mine get nerfed in the next patch? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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On October 13 2012 03:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:Poll: Will the Widow Mine get nerfed in the next patch?No (11) 58% Yes (8) 42% 19 total votes Your vote: Will the Widow Mine get nerfed in the next patch? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
No need for poll. Nerf will be there for sure.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5616041909#8
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Removing It's AA attack would balance it. Then maybe they can add another mech AA unit.
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On October 13 2012 05:00 Zorgaz wrote:
Removing It's AA attack would balance it. Then maybe they can add another mech AA unit.
Viking? It's already here.
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I can't say much about the other aspects of widow mines but their anti-air capabilities are clearly broken. Air harassment units (including drops) are reliable offensive options that a better skilled player or race can make use of regardless of terrain. Good luck if you nerf them (indirectly), you will get a stale map pool to fix racial balance artificially.
Few alternatives:
- Remove AA of widow mines
- Improve movespeed of obs, overseer, ravens. This will hurt the dynamics of other burrowed/cloaked units.
- Nerf just its anti-air damage
- Maybe make anti-air similar to HSM. Opponents get punished for shift queuing. But they can avoid damage if they pay attention to their units, also buying some time for terran to reposition his defences.
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I think the anti-air widow mine is an interesting experiment. However, in the end I think it is a poor idea. All the factory needs is a normal, boring, effective anti-air unit. A 2 supply goliath that does about 12-14 ground-to-air dps would be sufficient. No frills, no gimmicks, no special abilities. Just a good ground to air shooter with a mediocre ground combat efficiency.
The mine is EXTREMELY all-or-nothing. The threat of the mine is, in many ways, more significant than the actual mine. Two or three mines can completely obliterate an almost unlimited number of mutalisks. Terran anti-air was very dependent on the marine before, and was otherwise weak. But the mine is too unstable, too all-or-nothing, and just too weird to function as a real anti-air unit.
The goliath and the viking would not conflict for the simple reason that one is a ground unit that shoots air, and the other is an air unit that shoots air. Case in point: there is a huge difference in TvT between the Tank+Viking player and the Tank+Goliath player. Tanks can hit goliaths, but goliaths can hit vikings with impunity.
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On October 13 2012 08:03 ledarsi wrote:
I think the anti-air widow mine is an interesting experiment. However, in the end I think it is a poor idea. All the factory needs is a normal, boring, effective anti-air unit. A 2 supply goliath that does about 12-14 ground-to-air dps would be sufficient. No frills, no gimmicks, no special abilities. Just a good ground to air shooter with a mediocre ground combat efficiency.
The mine is EXTREMELY all-or-nothing. The threat of the mine is, in many ways, more significant than the actual mine. Two or three mines can completely obliterate an almost unlimited number of mutalisks. Terran anti-air was very dependent on the marine before, and was otherwise weak. But the mine is too unstable, too all-or-nothing, and just too weird to function as a real anti-air unit.
The goliath and the viking would not conflict for the simple reason that one is a ground unit that shoots air, and the other is an air unit that shoots air. Case in point: there is a huge difference in TvT between the Tank+Viking player and the Tank+Goliath player. Tanks can hit goliaths, but goliaths can hit vikings with impunity.
if terran gets another AA from factory, viking needs a little nerf because it already destroy any air composition protoss can use.
or they could just do something about the thor so it can be a viable AA from factory in the TvP matchup
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Activation time is now 3 sec delay.
This means small numbers speedlings and hellions will be able to run past the widow mines w/o triggering.
Nerfs poor mine placement, but buffs smart mine placement as opponent may not realize he's in a mine field until he engages on top of one.
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Since the biggest issue with the Widow Mines seems to be the early mid game pressure, would it be reasonable to make the WMs rearm in 5s (or 3 or 8 or whatever) but be visible during this short time?
I personally dislike that they are trying to solve this issue messing up with P/Z's detection.
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On October 13 2012 17:28 Kaleidos wrote:
Since the biggest issue with the Widow Mines seems to be the early mid game pressure, would it be reasonable to make the WMs rearm in 5s (or 3 or 8 or whatever) but be visible during this short time?
I personally dislike that they are trying to solve this issue messing up with P/Z's detection.
exactly. why make ALL cloak/air play worse because the mine is way too strong? just nerf the mine and make it not hit air and cloaked units. its such an easy fix, hope they´ll do it in future patch.
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so why are these mines OP but infestors aren't?
infestors can also burrow and remain hidden, on top of that they can move around whilst burrowed
range of fungal is better than range of rocket
fungal also hits air and cloaked
primary target doesn't receive 160 damage, but with chaining you'll get there, splash damage is the same to armored, 10 less to other units (but again, potential for chaining)
duration of restoring 75 energy is a bit more than widow mine recharging? However if you have 150 energy you can cast 2 immediately
infestor has other useful spells
can also be mass produced
it costs quite a bit more gas, takes 10 s longer to build and you need to unburrow to cast the fungals, but otherwise it seems better than the mine in every aspect? So why is everyone getting worked up over mines but infestors/fungal are fine?
genuine question btw, not trolling
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infestors cost 6 times the gas, are available 5-8 minutes later in the game, cant fungal while burrowed, do a lot less damage, most of the other zerg units suck (while terran was fine in WoL TvZ, mines are there to make TvP mech viable while TvZ is buffed and TvP bio with mines is buffed which is fine balancewise since Z/P gets new units too).
also infestors dont automatically kill banshees, DTs, phoenix, oracles, mutas etc.. you need apm, mapvision, a lot of energy etc. to kill air/cloaked units with infestors while with mines you just burrow them in places they can appear (basically at mineral lines or behind them) and you need 0 apm to be safe then.
problem with mine is its good vs everything AND superearly AND supercheap.
so either make them much much later in the game and a lot more expensive or make them not hit air and cloaked units and make burrow time much higher so you cant burrow in vision of enemy units and they cant even kill mines fast enough. the last one is a lot better in my opinion since otherwise DTs, banshees, mutas, oracles, drops and whatever other options is taken out of the game since it is way too risky to ever go for such an expensive tech if 4 mines for 100 gas counter your 400-1500 gas investment.
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EPT
