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On October 12 2012 03:51 Grendel wrote:
Imo range is fine.
What I think is needed: like you said hit points. But also:
- Burrow time increased
- Reduced splash to 35
- Unable to detect cloaked units.
I think with these parameters altered it would be a good unit.
It can detect cloaked units tooo!! holytits batman thats crazy i knew it was good but it just keeps getting crazier or perhaps u mean like spidermines used to do, it doesn't reveal them but it kills them if they get near it.
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my issue with lowering the range is twofold
first if you reduce the range you then require terran to build more mines in order to defend a certain area, so in a way, decreasing the range is increasing the supply cost of the mine.
second, the range enables widow mines to be very powerful defensively, as zerg must attack with roaches or hydras (which are bad against tanks), and protoss must attack with stalkers or collossus (and therefore his entire army)
the true issue with the widow mine is that i can be used offensively. This in my opinion should not be the case. Terran already has two dedicated early harass units, the banshee and the reaper, which are not that effective in other roles. Likewise the widow mine needs to be a defensive/space control unit, not a cheese/rush unit.
so, then the question is how to reduce the widow mines capacity for aggression while still making it viable for defense.
my solution is to:
1. re introduce the armory requirement (as this will not only make widow mines come later, but makes scouting a widow mine rush possible
2. dramatically decrease the cooldown for unstable payload, while simultaneously making each charge cost x amount (i was thinking 75) minerals (kind of like a reaver). This creates three new aspects to the widow mine. The first is that early game widow mines, especially for aggression where they would be firing often, become VERY expensive. The second is that widow mines synergize very well with mech as they become an alternate mineral sink to the hellion, while at the same time synergizing less with bio and bio/tank as they compete with the production of marines (which are already mobile enough to not need widow mines). Lastly, the ability for opponents to cost effectively trade with the widow mine, even if they get in range, creates an interesting dynamic around widow mines where players make snap decisions over whether it is worth is to kill x number of units for x mineral loss and must micro effectively to get a cost efficient trade.
3. this is a small one, but the burrow time should be increased, simply because it is not needed for a defensive unit to have a super fast burrow time, they should have to be intelligently positioned ahead of time.
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the AA and the ability to attack cloaked units removes more from the game than adds to it... air harass/drops/DT/banshee becomes stupidly risk and not worth the investment with the mine in the field.
if they remove these 2 things, I believe it can keep it's current stats and will probably make air tech more worthy against terran.
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I think one of the bigger problems with the design of the mine right now is that it's got the mineral line harassment potential of a few hellions, which already have incredible potential.
A change such as lowering health and increasing burrow time or preventing them from being loaded into a medivac would probably alleviate that.
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On October 12 2012 07:59 rpgalon wrote:
the AA and the ability to attack cloaked units removes more from the game than adds to it... air harass/drops/DT/banshee becomes stupidly risk and not worth the investment with the mine in the field.
if they remove these 2 things, I believe it can keep it's current stats and will probably make air tech more worthy against terran.
Yeah with the way the mine is now at least in zvt I don't think mutas are viable in anyway shape or form. Makes me sad as I still liked going mutas but with the way mines are now it just is way to risky and even if you have detection you can't attack the mine with them because they attack air :/.
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Personally I don't think blizzard should make any changes to the mines for a couple of weeks. People need time to learn how to deal with them effectively as a concept before more changes are made. Even the pro players like White Ra etc who have been playing incredible amounts of HoTS are still just beginning to get the idea.
- Pro players are moving observers as close as 4-6 (yes dying half the time and being just out of range half the time) their observers WAY closer than the 10-11 range needed to see mines before attempting to have units destroy them.
- They are still sending their whole ball across map instead of having 1-2 units leading their forces to avoid splash damage
- High masters and grandmasters players are still not scouting, or leaving units near the opponents front to identify early mine play. And are still falling for the most basic of mine traps like chasing a retreating army over a few mines and being softened up.
- Zerg players are still not saccing 1 ling per mine until the minefield is on cooldown so that they can clean up the minefield with the rest of their lings (or any other low range unit) yet. They are just complaining about range. Saccing a 25min unit to kill a 75min25gas unit is an exchange that they should be craving!
A lot of the techniques and and general play changes that people need to make before even worrying about build orders etc are simply not happening even at the highest levels. Players are not use to needing to watch an army travel across a map like they had to vs Terran in BW.
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I vote for:
- unable to detect cloaked units (so that cloaked units become a soft counter to widow mine play; right now cloaked play is completely useless vs Terran)
- range reduced by 0.5 (so that zerg can deal with them with hydras without a range upgrade)
That might be enough. It's important NOT to overnerf widow mines, since from the design standpoint widow mines are great units that bring exiting positional play!
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Just give it an activationdelay, where the mine is visible (it blinks red or opens its shell) for the enemy, when the enemy gets in range , 1 sec. or less . And if the enemy reacts very quick and pulls his unit away in time , it deactivates again. That solves all the problems. Drops and cloacked harass , is then possible and airplay also. If the delay is short enough , than the unit is still very usefull , but without its opdness in some situations.And if you activate the mine manually and wait until the enemy unit is on top of the mine, then its very difficult to get away for the enemy, even with an delay after activation.
+lower its hp to 50 (they shoud not be able to walk rigth into the enemy and then burrow in the enemys army)
and take away the detectorability
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On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2.
I am also a meching Terran player. I love mech. I know the mine is OP atm, and it will be nerfed in some way. Its just too easy to use for the utility and versatility is has and massive damage it does The purpose of this thread is to discuss how it should be nerfed so as to make it still a powerful unit but also not such an offensive unit which goes against the design of it. I know you think the mine is fine, the Terran bias is probably more prominent in your posts than anywhere else on Earth.
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The only nerf it needs is to not hit workers. It gets weaker and weaker the longer the game goes on because of its horrible supply inefficiency.
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The 2 second burrow time is the most ridiculous aspect about the current design. You can proxy a factory, sneak in a widow mine and burrow it in a zerg player's mineral line at 5:30 and the game instantly ends.
What was the reasoning behind making burrow 2 seconds instead of 4? Wasn't the unit originally designed to break up the death ball by creating a defensive unit? 4 seconds seems like plenty in that case, but now you can just run them in with the rest of your army and burrow them before they get taken out.
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On October 12 2012 10:16 link0 wrote:
The only nerf it needs is to not hit workers. It gets weaker and weaker the longer the game goes on because of its horrible supply inefficiency.
I hope that's not they'll take. Makes the unit lot less exciting.
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Buff splash & reduce single target damage.
nerf HP or increase borrow time
Right now they are too good versus single big targets, that and their high hp make it more attractive to attack with them in your army then to leave then defending you flanks. If you make it so it is harder to run them into an engagement and the wont be as good at kill brood lords and immortals then people will use then for their intended role. I think they should one shot a ling or marine and 2 shot a stalker/roach or something in that area.
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Health reduced to 50
Unstable Payload Attaches itself to enemies and detonates after 5 seconds
Add delay to missile targeting and make it vulnerable when locking on
Increase burrow time
I think they should reintroduce the old widowmine mechanic back into the HotS beta. The 'unstable payload' would attach itself to an enemy unit and, after 5-10 sec, it deals the damage. A warning will be given out to the victim when the 'unstable payload' takes hold on a unit. If the unit with the 'unstable payload' is killed before it detonates, the unit will still explode and deal splash. That way, there will be more reactionary play as the players will try to get the unit attached with the 'unstable payload' out of their army/deathball, and the widowmine splash damage can be buffed to 'punish sloppy play'. The missile can still be free, but it will actually give players a chance to make the widowmine engagement more cost-effective.
Now the main purpose of the mine is to deny early aggression, and big deathballs moving across the map. With the proposed change, the missile would still be doing its job in those situations and it makes it easier for a deathball to move out across the map without sustaining heavy losses. I mean, in its current situation a Protoss deathball moving across the map can be put down by 10 widowmines if not scouted right. Even if spotted, those pesky mines are a nuisance to get rid of, as the ability to target cloaked units means your observer is in danger. So its ability to snipe cloaked units without detection should be removed.
Add a health nerf, a longer window of vulnerability when locking on the a target and increase its burrow time to decrease its offensive capability in the early-mid game. These things are way too strong for their cost.
Widowmines in its current state is almost impossible to kill without any static structures. Even with spines and spore crawlers, the Terran can make a starport (its in their direct tech path) and make banshees. To deal with spines, they can make 1 tank. With the starport, Terran denies mobile detection with vikings. The Mine/banshee/viking combination with 1 tank to clean up static structures is just too good. The Terran would at least be able to prevent a third base from going up until the mid-game starts and would have already made is own third, and the Zerg will not be able to do much without their economy. Swarm hosts don't help much either, as a good number of widowmines can kill off the locusts, and banshees can kill off the swarm hosts with scan. Runbys become impossible to do; 2 mines can destroy 20 zerglings when positioned right. Widowmines also reduce the mobility and map control of the Zerg army, something it cannot do without. Why do burrowed banelings even exist anymore? Just let the zergling morph into a widowmine and we'll call it even.
Hm, that was a long rant, but I hope you get my point. Widowmines are too good at their job, even surpassing other units in their roles. The thing should and will get nerfed. I'll be waiting.
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On October 12 2012 09:35 StandAloneComplex wrote:
Just give it an activationdelay, where the mine is visible (it blinks red or opens its shell) for the enemy, when the enemy gets in range , 1 sec. or less . And if the enemy reacts very quick and pulls his unit away in time , it deactivates again. That solves all the problems. Drops and cloacked harass , is then possible and airplay also. If the delay is short enough , than the unit is still very usefull , but without its opdness in some situations.And if you activate the mine manually and wait until the enemy unit is on top of the mine, then its very difficult to get away for the enemy, even with an delay after activation.
+lower its hp to 50 (they shoud not be able to walk rigth into the enemy and then burrow in the enemys army)
and take away the detectorability
I think this is actually a really good idea. That way the attacking player still has a chance to save their drop, cloaked unit, or harassment force if they are paying attention at that moment but they still can't go there without losing the unit... the terran still has control of the area. It also creates the opportunity for something similar to zealots dragging spider mines.
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Someone needs to layout how each race is 'meant' to deal with mines before they can really be balanced.
Ok, we know they are intended to control space for a meching player, but obviously the other race (or even a non mech'ing terran) need a method of dealing with them, so lay it out.
Are you meant to get detection and clean them up with long range units? Flying units? "Free" energy units (like infested terran)?
If the intention is that protoss clean them up with obs + colossus then why the hell can terran get them so early and so cheap?
If the answer for zerg is to use hydras to clean them out, then why are they range 5, which means you need a hydra range upgrade + speed upgrade or getting creep slowly close enough that the hydras don't get sniped.
If you are inteded to be able to kill them before burrow with lings then maybe they have too many hp?
How many shots from a single stalker 'should' it take to kill a mine?
Should it be light since everything that has damage vs light has 5 range or less?
What should 1, 2 or 5 mines be capable of? how much resources and production time should it take to 'lockdown' an area of the map? No one seems to be outlining the parameters of what a widow mine should be able to do so I don't see how you can make an arguement for nerfing or buffing or whatever.
I mean, look at this quote from a post above me Now the main purpose of the mine is to deny early aggression, and big deathballs moving across the map.. Early aggression, (small groups of units) and big deathballs (commonly known as mid to end game). Basically what he saying is that the main purpose of the mine is to win the game at any stage vs all types of armies. I'm not even picking on him, this thread is full of ideas to buff and nerf with no explanation of how each race is meant to deal with the threat or how the poster envisions the widow mine working for the player building them.
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not the popular idea here, But take it out of the game its not needed....
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United States7483 Posts
On October 12 2012 07:03 avilo wrote:
You guys really hate mech don't you? The mine really doesn't need a nerf at all, it was sensationalist people going "omg it's OP!" the first day it was out and that's all it was.
Right now, mech TvP is viable because of things like the ability to detect cloaked units.
The reason wings of liberty mech was bad wasn't necessarily because mech was bad, it was because of all the crazy things you had to do to get mech going which at high level play was basically impossible.
The widow mine currently has cut down a lot of those wings of liberty costs allowing you to play mech tvp.
Starport = 100 gas.
Raven = 100 minerals 200 gas, easily snipable
Armory = 100 gas, thor = 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply
Siege mode = 100 gas
Vikings = 75 gas + starport etc
So, in wings of liberty if you want to be able to handle DT openings you need a raven, and you have to keep it alive. Which means you need a starport, which means you can't build as many factories. Or you need missile turrets, and you have to have them in the right position 100%, which is huge wastes of minerals in the early game.
With the current mine detection, you don't need to build a starport, no raven, all this gas can now go to factories, mines, tanks, hellions etc. which makes mech more viable. Imagine for every missile turret you would need for detection and that ebay, now you have 4-6 hellions more.
It's a huge deal. What about void ray all-ins and openings? Mines can now help against that because you no longer need the starport + viking + turret + ebay and/or a thor + armory. You're literally saving hundreds of vespene gas now that can go to MECH.
There's a reason why mech tvp is much more do-able with the most recent changes, and why it sucked shit before. If you've played enough beta now anyways, the mine is no where near imba, it's strong, just like swarm hosts, vipers, tempests, etc.
Let it play out, stop asking for nerfs when they're not needed after 4 days of play testing. The warhound was different - it was a poorly designed unit for Terran, let alone SC2.
So DT's should essentially be a useless investment in PvT because your opponent decided to play mech? Should the mines be able to deal with everything? If so, isn't that a freaking terrible game design? Why build turrets anymore, the mines will deal with DT's and kill air! If he goes phoenix, mines! VR? Mines! DT's? Mines! Heavy gateway attack? Make sure we've got some mines!
You don't even need to scout at that point.
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burrow time incrase and make it so it cannot unburrow while on cooldown.
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On October 12 2012 12:07 HeeroFX wrote:
not the popular idea here, But take it out of the game its not needed....
Yeah I heavily disagree with you. I think the widow rocket (it's not a mine anymore this is my new name of it) is a great concept. I would rather it be an actual mine then a rocket but either way it's a type of unit terran needs to go mech in tvp at least. I would like to see mech viable tvp and I think the widow rocket is a great way to make it viable.
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EPT
