|
On October 13 2012 18:04 Laurens wrote:
so why are these mines OP but infestors aren't?
infestors can also burrow and remain hidden, on top of that they can move around whilst burrowed
range of fungal is better than range of rocket
fungal also hits air and cloaked
primary target doesn't receive 160 damage, but with chaining you'll get there, splash damage is the same to armored, 10 less to other units (but again, potential for chaining)
duration of restoring 75 energy is a bit more than widow mine recharging? However if you have 150 energy you can cast 2 immediately
infestor has other useful spells
can also be mass produced
it costs quite a bit more gas, takes 10 s longer to build and you need to unburrow to cast the fungals, but otherwise it seems better than the mine in every aspect? So why is everyone getting worked up over mines but infestors/fungal are fine?
genuine question btw, not trolling
You have mines at 5-6 min mark. That's the first problem with WMs.
And who is sayin' infestors aren't OP ?!
|
They should make the missile shots like scarabs this way its a bit more costly but you accrue the cost over time. 15 or 20 minerals a shot and you are good to go!
|
Widow mines have several handicaps that can be abused to take them out, it just takes a bit of micro and patience:
In zvt, since widow mines cant hit structures, you can use 1 spine, 1 spore and creep tumours. It takes a lot of hellions totake out a spine and also several banshees to take out a spore, so keep them together with a queen a little behind to replace lost tumours and maybe transfuse.
In pvt, the new purify keeps them out of your mineral line if you respond in time, and you can go hunting for them with an obs clicked onto an immortal or stalker. If you're going to use a stalker, you probably want to get obs speed to give it a chance to catch up or only move in small increments (stalker move speed still slightly faster than speed obs).
In tvt, you can use 1 scv leading with a widow mine of your own. Due to the 40s cooldown, if you sac a unit, your own widow mine will get to kill the opponent's mine and live! Later on there's always marauder & raven or unsieged tank and raven.
Just requires micro to go minesweeping. People complained that WoL was a-move and boring. Now all races have something to micro against. Not sure about the air thing though. Would be better if there was something like a goliath that comes out of a factory and the mine lost its anti air.
|
My take on getting this unit balanced, as oppossed to the free detection for everyone change in patch #6:
Reduce health to 50.
Burrow time +1 second (like what it is now in patvh #6).
The unit is visible for a split second after the missile has been fired. (this allows early mines to be destroyed without detection, but at a cost)
The Widow Mine weapon benefits from Mech Damage upgrades (+15 dmg per upgrade lvl).
The burrow time and visibility after firing can be negated via an upgrade that can be researched at a Factory Tech Lab for 100/100 at 110 seconds. (if that is still too early, add an Armory requirement)
As for the Mech Damage upgrades, this allows the Widow Mine to scale a bit better later on in the game.
At lvl 3 it would be able to one shot a Warp Prism, providing an effective late-game deterrent for the mobile Mech army against drops.
|
+1. I like the scarb
Balance aside the best way to improve on the concept of the mine would be to have the "missiles" buildable and queueble within the unit itself. missile build times could around what the cooldown is now but the nice thing is that it adds some depth to the mines since you would have to choose how much to have to invest alone keep tabs on the mines themselves. Better yet you could not invest in the missles of the mine, have armyies travel past without any actions and later reactivate them. It would be interesting to see it balanced around having to build/fire missle one at a time vs build each slowly but add them as ammo to be release quickly with the downside of not being able to cancel built mines from the stock.
|
The Burrow time is pretty significant, more than I thought it would be... After getting some (~15, used the mines in every game) games in, I can say that one second makes a pretty big difference. I'm glad Blizzard is taking time and care with this process. I still think they tank a little too well, but we'll see how things play out in the following week(s).
|
On October 13 2012 19:33 hobbidude wrote:
+1. I like the scarb
Balance aside the best way to improve on the concept of the mine would be to have the "missiles" buildable and queueble within the unit itself. missile build times could around what the cooldown is now but the nice thing is that it adds some depth to the mines since you would have to choose how much to have to invest alone keep tabs on the mines themselves. Better yet you could not invest in the missles of the mine, have armyies travel past without any actions and later reactivate them. It would be interesting to see it balanced around having to build/fire missle one at a time vs build each slowly but add them as ammo to be release quickly with the downside of not being able to cancel built mines from the stock.
Not a bad idea, I was thinking maybe reduce the damage and make the build time shorter and then tack on a cost per missile like 15 or 20 minerals a piece. Build time should be long enough so that If you lose the mine with all 5 missiles queued it becomes a wasted investment but since it takes X length to rebuild your forced to prep the widow mine ahead of time to prepare for the attack.
At the same time the build time should be short enough on the missiles so that if you were queuing them mid battle, you could still get an extra few attacks in
|
IMO remove this piece of shit and bring back Firebats and Spidermines.
|
It makes me cringe when thinking this game is being balanced around this broken unit.
|
On October 14 2012 09:16 GARcher wrote:
IMO remove this piece of shit and bring back Firebats and Spidermines.
dont agree on the firebat part. the hellion transformation is acutally the smart design/choice the made so far. bringing the firebat back in a different way that doesnt come from rax is quite interesting.
agree on mines/vultures.
|
Widow mine imo is a bane to TvP but seems to be fine in the other matchups. TvT just becomes a mechfest because of it and now it's just annoying...
|
It's only broken because it's an old, "new" mechanic.
They compliment siege tanks with extended range, banshees/marines/hellions as defense lines.
The patch is to fix widow mine rush.
|
Avilo strikes again with his "un-biased" post
On October 12 2012 07:36 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
Don't nerf it at all, just buff other units...
LOL nice logic.
|
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther.
|
There are three things in my mind that need to be addressed regarding the widow mine:
1. attacking cloaked units.
Widow mines shouldn't be able to attack cloaked units without detection.
2. attacking flying units
It's ok if widow mines attack flying units. However, they should not do splash damage if they can attack flying units. Flying units clump up very easily, so splash damage easily gets obscene against air units.
3. Being used offensively
Widow mines should not be able to be used offensively. Before this recent patch, I saw a lot of terran players running just pure widow mines up to an opponents army and just destroying it. The other player couldn't kill all the widow mines before they could burrow. Either make burrow time really long or lower the health of widow mines.
|
On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther.
You seem to play below bronze level.
I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF?
What? Replays please.
|
On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please.
Siege lines are SUPPOSED to be hard to break. That's the whole point of getting tanks. Unless of course you are playing against Bronze level players who leave their tanks unsupported.
|
On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please.
So anyone who has trouble breaking down units that are DESIGNED to be hard to break down are below bronze level? I like your logic, it has no substance, just like your argument about widow mines. I hope other people can see through your charade and see that you're arguments are more about "even though it might be broken, don't nerf my race bro" mindset than anything else
On October 14 2012 16:17 GARcher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please. Siege lines are SUPPOSED to be hard to break. That's the whole point of getting tanks. Unless of course you are playing against Bronze level players who leave their tanks unsupported.
EXACTLY my point, thank you
|
On October 14 2012 19:21 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please. So anyone who has trouble breaking down units that are DESIGNED to be hard to break down are below bronze level? I like your logic, it has no substance, just like your argument about widow mines. I hope other people can see through your charade and see that you're arguments are more about "even though it might be broken, don't nerf my race bro" mindset than anything else Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 16:17 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please. Siege lines are SUPPOSED to be hard to break. That's the whole point of getting tanks. Unless of course you are playing against Bronze level players who leave their tanks unsupported. EXACTLY my point, thank you
8 siege tank + insufficient no. of marines will straight up DIE to 16+ marauders/medivac with hellions cleaning up the marines.
The same unit composition will equally crush bunkers and PFs, that amount of 'rauders three shot a PF.
Happened to me many times and watched enough pro-streams to know that. Widow mines do not change this dynamic or reduce this composition's effectiveness unless they stim into a mine field.
Your argument is invalid.
|
On October 14 2012 19:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 19:21 GhostOwl wrote:On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please. So anyone who has trouble breaking down units that are DESIGNED to be hard to break down are below bronze level? I like your logic, it has no substance, just like your argument about widow mines. I hope other people can see through your charade and see that you're arguments are more about "even though it might be broken, don't nerf my race bro" mindset than anything else On October 14 2012 16:17 GARcher wrote:On October 14 2012 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 15:57 GhostOwl wrote:
I think mines should be taken out of the game entirely. They complement lazy turtle style play, where the player just plants it and forgets about it. Terran is already hard enough to break with Siege tanks, bunkers, and PF. Now mines too?
Besides, Terran needs a late game unit that can deal with Colossus better, not mine. It's just unnecessary and complicates balance farther. You seem to play below bronze level. I mean seriously you have problem in WoL breaking siege tank, bunker and PF? What? Replays please. Siege lines are SUPPOSED to be hard to break. That's the whole point of getting tanks. Unless of course you are playing against Bronze level players who leave their tanks unsupported. EXACTLY my point, thank you 8 siege tank + insufficient no. of marines will straight up DIE to 16+ marauders/medivac with hellions "tanking". The same unit composition will equally crush bunkers and PFs, that amount of 'rauders three shot a PF. Happened to me many times and watched enough pro-streams to know that. Widow mines do not change this dynamic or reduce this composition's effectiveness unless they stim into a mine field. Your argument is invalid.
Are you serious?
8 Siege Tanks + insufficient number of marines = unsupported siege line. Plus 16 marauders and enough hellions to buffer damage is much more supply wise and resource wise compared to the Siege Tank composition.
16 marauders = 1600 minerals and 400 gas
Planetary = 550 min and 150 gas
Bunker = 100 min
Duh 16 marauders are going to kill these things. Might as well say 4 Roaches would kill 1 Zergling extremely efficiently.
And if you do scout that the opponent is Marauder heavy you'd get more Marines since Marauders have absolutely horrible DPS against non armoured units.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
