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Before I begin I would like to point out, and I'm paraphrasing, that Blizzard stated that they wanted to make new units "OP" so people would use them more. So please keep this in mind as we discuss the state of P at this stage in the beta.
[Intentions of new units]
By just looking at the new units that Protoss has been endowed with it's clear that the intention behind them were to:
- Introduce out-of-deathball utility to the Protoss compositions in the form of fast harass - Oracle.
- Make early game pressures and defenses more reliable - MsC.
- I have no idea why we need a flying 22 range Sentry without FF that costs 300/300 and needs another further upgrade to throw it's cute blue bouncy ball further - Tempest.
Now, while recalling what I mentioned at the beginning of this post, do these solutions feel particularly powerful? Do they actually even present themselves as solutions? The only viable, or rather non-pathetic, solution is the MsC.
[The Oracle]
- Very expensive
- Very fragile
- Only one ability that is standalone (Entomb) and costs a lot of energy, the other two to be used in conjunction with the useless Tempest.
The idea that this could be actually used in the early-mid game without committing suicide can't only seem outlandish to me. As a Protoss all the gas you are getting is already going to crucial support and gas heavy units that you need to actually survive. The Oracle costs way too much gas; considering the gas expenditure of core units. The only reasonable moment of entry for it is in the later stages of the game where you are actually quite far ahead. The worst part is that this is already a non-issue. Zealot-WP harass late game is extremely efficient, and only costs minerals to boot! The very nature of this unit with respect to its cost goes against the intended mechanic.
Protoss needs a cheap, not expensive, early-mid game harass unit. You don't have to put ridiculous spells on it, which in the end inflates its price. Plus Entomb just sucks, unless you are Plastic League.
Here is my suggestion:
Replace [Entombed] with: [Destabilize] - The Oracle casts over a circular area (whatever the desired value may be), destabilizing buildings within the area of effect and increasing production costs of units/upgrades by a certain % over X amount of time (does not affect costs of harvesters/overlords). The Oracle depletes all of its energy and the duration of the effect depends on how much energy was expended.
EDIT: The spell comes into effect on each respective building on its next fresh production. So if you cast the spell on a Barracks building a Marine the spell won't come into effect until the next Marine begins production. It would not be fair to deduct minerals/gas after the order has been given, nor would it be nice to see the cast wasted because you can't see the production timings. Of course it has a graphical effect which notifies the victim, whom then has a choice whether or not to continue production while the building is affected.
Now this doesn't have to scale linearly (nor would they overlap), i.e. 100 energy does not have to be 2x as long as 50 energy. For example a full 100 energy cast (spending over 100 energy does not increase duration, it instead increases the strength of the actual effect by some small factor) can cause the effect over 60 seconds, while two independently 50 energy casts net a total of 40 seconds (20 seconds each).
With this sort of scaling you can manage the power of the spell so that it's not too powerful during the early game, nor too weak during the mid-late game. Since the power of the unit is based on time the cost can be adjusted so it can be an affordable (100/100) side-asset to most compositions. This comes in consideration of the raw power that the other two races are receiving. In addition, since it is targeting production buildings, in most cases they are better defended compared to the fringes of the bases. With a tiny bump in shields this would be a perfectly reasonable unit and method of harass. It's fragile enough that if the opponent is paying attention they can deny, with relative ease, too much damage to be caused.
Any other ability should not be inherent, but upgrades at higher tech intervals, and focus mainly on indirect army support. The other two abilities that are currently in are just stupid. The tempest already costs a full base gas mining, why does it need another expensive gas unit to make it viable? No, the Oracle should be an effective tool throughout the game (the way Destabilize works would create the need for two or more Oracles), and with upgrades, not only be pigeonholed into supporting one stupid unit; did I mention the Tempest is stupid?
[Mothership Core]
Decent idea. It's, however, too slow and all its abilities are too expensive to be desirable. Make it able to shoot ALL THE TIME, the Photon thinga-majiggy ability just super charges the distance and damage by an appreciable amount. It should be much cheaper to use as well, something around 25 energy, however, it should have a set cooldown based on the time it takes 75 energy to build up. You can't spam it, but now Mass Recall actually becomes more viable for early game pressures/counter attacks.
The Energize ability should just be removed if it's going to cost that much (and would make my suggested Oracle too good). I would suggest to replace [Energize] with: [Distortion Field] - The MsC begins to channel an ability (can be toggled on or off) costing energy/s with a factor of between 1.1-1.5x (so that the expenditure accelerates the longer it's channeled). The distortion field encases all friendly units under it (with some acceptable range) and all incoming enemy damage is reduced by some %. The nature of the accelerating cost will make players more cautious and prudent with the usage so it can't be abused without completely sacrificing all its other utilities. This would mitigate the fragile nature of the Protoss units in the early game. It also opens up the possibility of better tech without putting too much into expensive sentries and forcing a Robotics every game. It can buy the necessary time that would be needed for better air transitions, for example. Now the strength shouldn't be so that Protoss becomes immune to all-ins but rather it should expand the options of the Protoss player in the early game and thus the potential techs and standard builds; this is mostly due to the fact of the extremely fragile nature of the core Gateway units. In every case an Immortal build should be the most efficient way to handle any heavy Roach/Marauder pushes but this additional defense can make holding with just gateway units possible (hard, but possible, in a non-risky way, i.e increase in skill cap).
[Tempest]
Just admit it was a brain fart. It even looks like an electric anus. Just bring the Carrier back. It was not viable because the unit itself was bad but because the costs associated (mostly time) were. Move attack, slightly faster build. Presto. Also Tempests are completely boring from a spectator view-point. It forces the observer to watch either the battle, where armies get tickled by Sentry-Ribbon balls (yes that blue fuzzy thing is a collection of sentry ribbons) or the the electric flying sentry anus ribbon throwing machines.
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I like your ideas about what to do with the oracle and the mothership core. I think adding to the cost of terran units and upgrades and whatnot is a really good idea. Imagine an early harrass that can delay stim, combat shield, etc..
the tempest I think is in the game mostly to counteract mech a little bit. There seems to be an awful lot of discussion about the warhound, and I agree that it is a hell of a good unit, but I think the idea is to be able to push back terran seige lines and advancing mech armys with the tempest (assuming that you can keep the tempest protected, but with blink stalkers it seems like it shouldnt be too too hard especially with their massive range)
On the whole I agree with you in theory that the carrier shouldnt have been replaced with such an obscure unit. such a starcraft icon...
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Wait so your idea for Oracle's new abillity is a spell that I cast on my opponent's building and it increases the cost of his units?
BAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHA
Thats like the lamest spell Ive ever heard of LOL. But you did give me a good laugh thank you.
User was warned for this post
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On September 07 2012 15:00 NukeD wrote:
Wait so your idea for Oracle's new abillity is a spell that I cast on my opponent's building and it increases the cost of his units?
BAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHA
Thats like the lamest spell Ive ever heard of LOL. But you did give me a good laugh thank you.
Go back to massing Hydra vs. Collosus.
User was warned for this post
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I dont think you understand, they need to give terran all the new toys or else what will the causals do?
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On September 07 2012 15:04 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 15:00 NukeD wrote:
Wait so your idea for Oracle's new abillity is a spell that I cast on my opponent's building and it increases the cost of his units?
BAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHA
Thats like the lamest spell Ive ever heard of LOL. But you did give me a good laugh thank you. Go back to massing Hydra vs. Collosus.
No seriously, your oracle idea is terrible. Others are ok.
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On September 07 2012 15:13 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 15:04 BeyondCtrL wrote:On September 07 2012 15:00 NukeD wrote:
Wait so your idea for Oracle's new abillity is a spell that I cast on my opponent's building and it increases the cost of his units?
BAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHA
Thats like the lamest spell Ive ever heard of LOL. But you did give me a good laugh thank you. Go back to massing Hydra vs. Collosus. No seriously, your oracle idea is terrible. Others are ok.
Why is it terrible? Mind explaining?
At the highest level Entomb is practically inconsequential. Increasing production costs disrupts delicate timings, unless you are constantly floating 1k/1k, and does direct economical damage if not dealt with. Blizzard obviously does not want another mineral line obliterating unit (e.g. Hellions). They want a passively damaging effect, that much is obvious. The ability itself might not be spectacular but fulfills a crucial role in slowing down the enemy economy. Not only does the mechanic give choices for the user, but it also gives choices to the victim.
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The problem of the oracle is not the spell casted, but the counters forced in(turret\spore\cannons) wich are the same of the others harass units (nix\dt\prism). Its always the same story, you harass with one of this units a base, and you have to forgot any other harass in that base till the end of time because you have already forced the counters (at least you have to wait a huge zealot warpin from the wp because it can be far from the mineral line). So you have to choose, oracle or a storm drop 5 min later? because if you choose oracle, when you will pass on the mineral line with the stormdrop you will be countered with 0 apm and a spore. Putting ALL the harass on the same concept force you to choose one, and the entomb is far to be the best one (nix are already two times strong and more versatile). In the first build of the oracle, there was a ability with a stun on static defence. That was really interesting, because allows you every tipe of harass with the other units in combo with the oracle, instead of deny every form of harass after the first entomb. I dunno why they remove it, the last interview i saw kim told "every wol harass unit is mineral line centric => now you got the oracle" .. ok kim.. ok..
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I can't remember the alpha Oracle, but was that similar to the Corsair's ability from BW? The Disruption Web?
Yeah, something like that would have been better. That said, I've always disliked the entomb ability.
It's so very un Protoss.
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On September 07 2012 15:19 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 15:13 NukeD wrote:On September 07 2012 15:04 BeyondCtrL wrote:On September 07 2012 15:00 NukeD wrote:
Wait so your idea for Oracle's new abillity is a spell that I cast on my opponent's building and it increases the cost of his units?
BAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHA
Thats like the lamest spell Ive ever heard of LOL. But you did give me a good laugh thank you. Go back to massing Hydra vs. Collosus. No seriously, your oracle idea is terrible. Others are ok. Why is it terrible? Mind explaining? At the highest level Entomb is practically inconsequential. Increasing production costs disrupts delicate timings, unless you are constantly floating 1k/1k, and does direct economical damage if not dealt with. Blizzard obviously does not want another mineral line obliterating unit (e.g. Hellions). They want a passively damaging effect, that much is obvious. The ability itself might not be spectacular but fulfills a crucial role in slowing down the enemy economy. Not only does the mechanic give choices for the user, but it also gives choices to the victim.
Well it could work as a sidespell, but as a main spell, while you could make it work and be great number wise, its just lame in design. As in not spectator friendly. Its boring.
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I really like how Blizzard give a harass unit to Protoss. And i don't really think orcale need a patch.
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My biggest issue with the oracle is there its too damn easy to use for harass. A pro player using an oracle will basically have the same effect as a casual player using an oracle.... Blizz wants this to be an e-sport... for a game to be a sport people need to be able to improve!!!
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they create a lame thing called tempest out of stubborness and hatred for the carrier, which doesnt seem to work with probe-like damage and laughable range. So they create another lame thing to accompany the tempest with two spells that 97% overlap with observer. Well that doesnt sound appealing enough, so they add that useless entomb shit and label the Oracle an innovative new unit.
Great design philosophy there
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I dont get how blizzard is thinking. For me the entomb spell of the oracle is just no fun at all : from a player perspective its dumb to use, no creativity will be involved in such a specialized spell, from a spectator perspective, no surprise will come : you see an oracle, you know it will entomb mineral lines with not so much the opponent can do against it early game.
The mothership core suffers the same big issue to me as the mothership : what is a hero unit doing in starcraft ? And since it is unique, it is op. Solutioon : give it the speed of a snail...
I watched white ra play yesterday. One game was against a zerg and he went for starport play : oracle harass, mass tempest used with the oracle scan spell, mass vortex. It was absolutely boring to watch and I guess boring to play. Those units (tempest, MS) are sooooooooo slow and non microable. I was sad, just sad.
About your ideas for the oracle I'm not sure, seems a litle bit like the corrupt ability of zerg. But still better idea than entomb since the players with this spell would have to choose wich buildings to target (one obvious problem is that against zerg you would use it against hatcheries and it would impact all zerg"s production).
About the mothership core, i would prefer it to be removed. No hero unit. May be put some recall ability into the oracle ? I know it will look like arbiter but hey, this hero idea is crap !
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Northern Ireland26727 Posts
All Blizzard had to do to give Protoss a bit more harass potential was remove the graviton beam energy requirement with the Phoenix. Phoenixes are the only unit in the game that you can catch a player completely unprepared with and not punish them because they run out of energy, it's maddening.
In addition, Protoss STILL have fuck all to use as an APM sink in the way the other races can, and our units still have less micro potential outside of big engagements.
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I somehow agree. The new protoss units seem to be the strangest addition and not very cool to play or cool to watch. I can't believe that there haven't been any better ideas.
Edit: plus, the oracle entomb is really dumb. there is no micro involved, you fly there stop them from mining, you need an spine crawler or zergling response and then forget about it. boring.
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I do like the mothership core however the oracle and tempest are weak, protoss would be better off with even slightly buffed carriers and no new air units. With the new units, all of protoss ground armies are weaker in comparison and the air units are not any stronger.
Having detection available from the stargate is useful, however phoenix harass still seems better, there is even the potential to energise them to start them off with full energy (not sure how well that works?).
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On September 07 2012 21:02 Startyr wrote:
I do like the mothership core however the oracle and tempest are weak, protoss would be better off with even slightly buffed carriers and no new air units. With the new units, all of protoss ground armies are weaker in comparison and the air units are not any stronger.
Having detection available from the stargate is useful, however phoenix harass still seems better, there is even the potential to energise them to start them off with full energy (not sure how well that works?).
Just give Carriers their BW stats back, and we'll see how good they'll be
It's just too ridiculous when Blizzard decided to buff BCs when they're rarely used and remove Carriers even when they finally found their place in game
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Tempest is a unit to Stalemate situations. When you can't attack a deathball becase it has lots of ghosts, infestors, collossi. You can force your opponent to fight on bad engagements. It's not a Standalone unit, doesn't have the DPS to do it, and i'm happy with that.
I'm OK with the Oracle. You understimate the power of a good energy magenement/smart usage on this unit. You don't need a ton of Observers to grant map vision if you know how to use this unit. You can substitute fenixes too.
Mommacore, i don't know. But i think it can be way more effective as the game matures. People don't figured it out yet.
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On September 07 2012 16:19 Gben592 wrote:
My biggest issue with the oracle is there its too damn easy to use for harass. A pro player using an oracle will basically have the same effect as a casual player using an oracle.... Blizz wants this to be an e-sport... for a game to be a sport people need to be able to improve!!!
Couldn't agree more. Right now all you have to do is cast Entomb on the minerals (even works through FOW, right?) and shift-move-click so it returns after casting. That's basically 4 clicks and literally takes almost 0 APM in the game. I mean, at least change it so you need to have vision of the minerals and have to cast it on all fields separately. That at least takes a remote amount of control/APM to execute it.
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EPT
