Before I begin I would like to point out, and I'm paraphrasing, that Blizzard stated that they wanted to make new units "OP" so people would use them more. So please keep this in mind as we discuss the state of P at this stage in the beta.
[Intentions of new units]
By just looking at the new units that Protoss has been endowed with it's clear that the intention behind them were to:
- Introduce out-of-deathball utility to the Protoss compositions in the form of fast harass - Oracle.
- Make early game pressures and defenses more reliable - MsC.
- I have no idea why we need a flying 22 range Sentry without FF that costs 300/300 and needs another further upgrade to throw it's cute blue bouncy ball further - Tempest.
Now, while recalling what I mentioned at the beginning of this post, do these solutions feel particularly powerful? Do they actually even present themselves as solutions? The only viable, or rather non-pathetic, solution is the MsC.
[The Oracle]
- Very expensive - Very fragile - Only one ability that is standalone (Entomb) and costs a lot of energy, the other two to be used in conjunction with the useless Tempest.
The idea that this could be actually used in the early-mid game without committing suicide can't only seem outlandish to me. As a Protoss all the gas you are getting is already going to crucial support and gas heavy units that you need to actually survive. The Oracle costs way too much gas; considering the gas expenditure of core units. The only reasonable moment of entry for it is in the later stages of the game where you are actually quite far ahead. The worst part is that this is already a non-issue. Zealot-WP harass late game is extremely efficient, and only costs minerals to boot! The very nature of this unit with respect to its cost goes against the intended mechanic.
Protoss needs a cheap, not expensive, early-mid game harass unit. You don't have to put ridiculous spells on it, which in the end inflates its price. Plus Entomb just sucks, unless you are Plastic League.
Here is my suggestion: Replace [Entombed] with: [Destabilize] - The Oracle casts over a circular area (whatever the desired value may be), destabilizing buildings within the area of effect and increasing production costs of units/upgrades by a certain % over X amount of time (does not affect costs of harvesters/overlords). The Oracle depletes all of its energy and the duration of the effect depends on how much energy was expended.
EDIT: The spell comes into effect on each respective building on its next fresh production. So if you cast the spell on a Barracks building a Marine the spell won't come into effect until the next Marine begins production. It would not be fair to deduct minerals/gas after the order has been given, nor would it be nice to see the cast wasted because you can't see the production timings. Of course it has a graphical effect which notifies the victim, whom then has a choice whether or not to continue production while the building is affected.
Now this doesn't have to scale linearly (nor would they overlap), i.e. 100 energy does not have to be 2x as long as 50 energy. For example a full 100 energy cast (spending over 100 energy does not increase duration, it instead increases the strength of the actual effect by some small factor) can cause the effect over 60 seconds, while two independently 50 energy casts net a total of 40 seconds (20 seconds each).
With this sort of scaling you can manage the power of the spell so that it's not too powerful during the early game, nor too weak during the mid-late game. Since the power of the unit is based on time the cost can be adjusted so it can be an affordable (100/100) side-asset to most compositions. This comes in consideration of the raw power that the other two races are receiving. In addition, since it is targeting production buildings, in most cases they are better defended compared to the fringes of the bases. With a tiny bump in shields this would be a perfectly reasonable unit and method of harass. It's fragile enough that if the opponent is paying attention they can deny, with relative ease, too much damage to be caused.
Any other ability should not be inherent, but upgrades at higher tech intervals, and focus mainly on indirect army support. The other two abilities that are currently in are just stupid. The tempest already costs a full base gas mining, why does it need another expensive gas unit to make it viable? No, the Oracle should be an effective tool throughout the game (the way Destabilize works would create the need for two or more Oracles), and with upgrades, not only be pigeonholed into supporting one stupid unit; did I mention the Tempest is stupid?
[Mothership Core]
Decent idea. It's, however, too slow and all its abilities are too expensive to be desirable. Make it able to shoot ALL THE TIME, the Photon thinga-majiggy ability just super charges the distance and damage by an appreciable amount. It should be much cheaper to use as well, something around 25 energy, however, it should have a set cooldown based on the time it takes 75 energy to build up. You can't spam it, but now Mass Recall actually becomes more viable for early game pressures/counter attacks.
The Energize ability should just be removed if it's going to cost that much (and would make my suggested Oracle too good). I would suggest to replace [Energize] with: [Distortion Field] - The MsC begins to channel an ability (can be toggled on or off) costing energy/s with a factor of between 1.1-1.5x (so that the expenditure accelerates the longer it's channeled). The distortion field encases all friendly units under it (with some acceptable range) and all incoming enemy damage is reduced by some %. The nature of the accelerating cost will make players more cautious and prudent with the usage so it can't be abused without completely sacrificing all its other utilities. This would mitigate the fragile nature of the Protoss units in the early game. It also opens up the possibility of better tech without putting too much into expensive sentries and forcing a Robotics every game. It can buy the necessary time that would be needed for better air transitions, for example. Now the strength shouldn't be so that Protoss becomes immune to all-ins but rather it should expand the options of the Protoss player in the early game and thus the potential techs and standard builds; this is mostly due to the fact of the extremely fragile nature of the core Gateway units. In every case an Immortal build should be the most efficient way to handle any heavy Roach/Marauder pushes but this additional defense can make holding with just gateway units possible (hard, but possible, in a non-risky way, i.e increase in skill cap).
[Tempest]
Just admit it was a brain fart. It even looks like an electric anus. Just bring the Carrier back. It was not viable because the unit itself was bad but because the costs associated (mostly time) were. Move attack, slightly faster build. Presto. Also Tempests are completely boring from a spectator view-point. It forces the observer to watch either the battle, where armies get tickled by Sentry-Ribbon balls (yes that blue fuzzy thing is a collection of sentry ribbons) or the the electric flying sentry anus ribbon throwing machines.
I like your ideas about what to do with the oracle and the mothership core. I think adding to the cost of terran units and upgrades and whatnot is a really good idea. Imagine an early harrass that can delay stim, combat shield, etc.. the tempest I think is in the game mostly to counteract mech a little bit. There seems to be an awful lot of discussion about the warhound, and I agree that it is a hell of a good unit, but I think the idea is to be able to push back terran seige lines and advancing mech armys with the tempest (assuming that you can keep the tempest protected, but with blink stalkers it seems like it shouldnt be too too hard especially with their massive range) On the whole I agree with you in theory that the carrier shouldnt have been replaced with such an obscure unit. such a starcraft icon...
On September 07 2012 15:00 NukeD wrote: Wait so your idea for Oracle's new abillity is a spell that I cast on my opponent's building and it increases the cost of his units?
BAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHA
Thats like the lamest spell Ive ever heard of LOL. But you did give me a good laugh thank you.
On September 07 2012 15:00 NukeD wrote: Wait so your idea for Oracle's new abillity is a spell that I cast on my opponent's building and it increases the cost of his units?
BAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHA
Thats like the lamest spell Ive ever heard of LOL. But you did give me a good laugh thank you.
Go back to massing Hydra vs. Collosus.
No seriously, your oracle idea is terrible. Others are ok.
On September 07 2012 15:00 NukeD wrote: Wait so your idea for Oracle's new abillity is a spell that I cast on my opponent's building and it increases the cost of his units?
BAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHA
Thats like the lamest spell Ive ever heard of LOL. But you did give me a good laugh thank you.
Go back to massing Hydra vs. Collosus.
No seriously, your oracle idea is terrible. Others are ok.
Why is it terrible? Mind explaining?
At the highest level Entomb is practically inconsequential. Increasing production costs disrupts delicate timings, unless you are constantly floating 1k/1k, and does direct economical damage if not dealt with. Blizzard obviously does not want another mineral line obliterating unit (e.g. Hellions). They want a passively damaging effect, that much is obvious. The ability itself might not be spectacular but fulfills a crucial role in slowing down the enemy economy. Not only does the mechanic give choices for the user, but it also gives choices to the victim.
The problem of the oracle is not the spell casted, but the counters forced in(turret\spore\cannons) wich are the same of the others harass units (nix\dt\prism). Its always the same story, you harass with one of this units a base, and you have to forgot any other harass in that base till the end of time because you have already forced the counters (at least you have to wait a huge zealot warpin from the wp because it can be far from the mineral line). So you have to choose, oracle or a storm drop 5 min later? because if you choose oracle, when you will pass on the mineral line with the stormdrop you will be countered with 0 apm and a spore. Putting ALL the harass on the same concept force you to choose one, and the entomb is far to be the best one (nix are already two times strong and more versatile). In the first build of the oracle, there was a ability with a stun on static defence. That was really interesting, because allows you every tipe of harass with the other units in combo with the oracle, instead of deny every form of harass after the first entomb. I dunno why they remove it, the last interview i saw kim told "every wol harass unit is mineral line centric => now you got the oracle" .. ok kim.. ok..
On September 07 2012 15:00 NukeD wrote: Wait so your idea for Oracle's new abillity is a spell that I cast on my opponent's building and it increases the cost of his units?
BAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHA
Thats like the lamest spell Ive ever heard of LOL. But you did give me a good laugh thank you.
Go back to massing Hydra vs. Collosus.
No seriously, your oracle idea is terrible. Others are ok.
Why is it terrible? Mind explaining?
At the highest level Entomb is practically inconsequential. Increasing production costs disrupts delicate timings, unless you are constantly floating 1k/1k, and does direct economical damage if not dealt with. Blizzard obviously does not want another mineral line obliterating unit (e.g. Hellions). They want a passively damaging effect, that much is obvious. The ability itself might not be spectacular but fulfills a crucial role in slowing down the enemy economy. Not only does the mechanic give choices for the user, but it also gives choices to the victim.
Well it could work as a sidespell, but as a main spell, while you could make it work and be great number wise, its just lame in design. As in not spectator friendly. Its boring.
My biggest issue with the oracle is there its too damn easy to use for harass. A pro player using an oracle will basically have the same effect as a casual player using an oracle.... Blizz wants this to be an e-sport... for a game to be a sport people need to be able to improve!!!
they create a lame thing called tempest out of stubborness and hatred for the carrier, which doesnt seem to work with probe-like damage and laughable range. So they create another lame thing to accompany the tempest with two spells that 97% overlap with observer. Well that doesnt sound appealing enough, so they add that useless entomb shit and label the Oracle an innovative new unit. Great design philosophy there
I dont get how blizzard is thinking. For me the entomb spell of the oracle is just no fun at all : from a player perspective its dumb to use, no creativity will be involved in such a specialized spell, from a spectator perspective, no surprise will come : you see an oracle, you know it will entomb mineral lines with not so much the opponent can do against it early game. The mothership core suffers the same big issue to me as the mothership : what is a hero unit doing in starcraft ? And since it is unique, it is op. Solutioon : give it the speed of a snail...
I watched white ra play yesterday. One game was against a zerg and he went for starport play : oracle harass, mass tempest used with the oracle scan spell, mass vortex. It was absolutely boring to watch and I guess boring to play. Those units (tempest, MS) are sooooooooo slow and non microable. I was sad, just sad.
About your ideas for the oracle I'm not sure, seems a litle bit like the corrupt ability of zerg. But still better idea than entomb since the players with this spell would have to choose wich buildings to target (one obvious problem is that against zerg you would use it against hatcheries and it would impact all zerg"s production).
About the mothership core, i would prefer it to be removed. No hero unit. May be put some recall ability into the oracle ? I know it will look like arbiter but hey, this hero idea is crap !
All Blizzard had to do to give Protoss a bit more harass potential was remove the graviton beam energy requirement with the Phoenix. Phoenixes are the only unit in the game that you can catch a player completely unprepared with and not punish them because they run out of energy, it's maddening.
In addition, Protoss STILL have fuck all to use as an APM sink in the way the other races can, and our units still have less micro potential outside of big engagements.
I somehow agree. The new protoss units seem to be the strangest addition and not very cool to play or cool to watch. I can't believe that there haven't been any better ideas. Edit: plus, the oracle entomb is really dumb. there is no micro involved, you fly there stop them from mining, you need an spine crawler or zergling response and then forget about it. boring.
I do like the mothership core however the oracle and tempest are weak, protoss would be better off with even slightly buffed carriers and no new air units. With the new units, all of protoss ground armies are weaker in comparison and the air units are not any stronger.
Having detection available from the stargate is useful, however phoenix harass still seems better, there is even the potential to energise them to start them off with full energy (not sure how well that works?).
On September 07 2012 21:02 Startyr wrote: I do like the mothership core however the oracle and tempest are weak, protoss would be better off with even slightly buffed carriers and no new air units. With the new units, all of protoss ground armies are weaker in comparison and the air units are not any stronger.
Having detection available from the stargate is useful, however phoenix harass still seems better, there is even the potential to energise them to start them off with full energy (not sure how well that works?).
Just give Carriers their BW stats back, and we'll see how good they'll be
It's just too ridiculous when Blizzard decided to buff BCs when they're rarely used and remove Carriers even when they finally found their place in game
Tempest is a unit to Stalemate situations. When you can't attack a deathball becase it has lots of ghosts, infestors, collossi. You can force your opponent to fight on bad engagements. It's not a Standalone unit, doesn't have the DPS to do it, and i'm happy with that.
I'm OK with the Oracle. You understimate the power of a good energy magenement/smart usage on this unit. You don't need a ton of Observers to grant map vision if you know how to use this unit. You can substitute fenixes too.
Mommacore, i don't know. But i think it can be way more effective as the game matures. People don't figured it out yet.
On September 07 2012 16:19 Gben592 wrote: My biggest issue with the oracle is there its too damn easy to use for harass. A pro player using an oracle will basically have the same effect as a casual player using an oracle.... Blizz wants this to be an e-sport... for a game to be a sport people need to be able to improve!!!
Couldn't agree more. Right now all you have to do is cast Entomb on the minerals (even works through FOW, right?) and shift-move-click so it returns after casting. That's basically 4 clicks and literally takes almost 0 APM in the game. I mean, at least change it so you need to have vision of the minerals and have to cast it on all fields separately. That at least takes a remote amount of control/APM to execute it.
The Mothership Core is great. Mass Recall alone makes it a worthy investment, and it has the extra effect of being able to defend early expansions. Allowing it to shoot all the time is a bad idea, you would have to nerf its damage drastically, in which case it can't help you defending expansions any more.
On September 07 2012 16:19 Gben592 wrote: My biggest issue with the oracle is there its too damn easy to use for harass. A pro player using an oracle will basically have the same effect as a casual player using an oracle.... Blizz wants this to be an e-sport... for a game to be a sport people need to be able to improve!!!
Couldn't agree more. Right now all you have to do is cast Entomb on the minerals (even works through FOW, right?) and shift-move-click so it returns after casting. That's basically 4 clicks and literally takes almost 0 APM in the game. I mean, at least change it so you need to have vision of the minerals and have to cast it on all fields separately. That at least takes a remote amount of control/APM to execute it.
That's why it sucks, even amove workers can destroy entombs in seconds
Guyz this just hit me somehow, how about if oracle could cast "silence", would that be possible? For those who don't know it's a spell, that prevents units from using any abilities.
I liked the mothership core better when it was stronger and attached to a nexus. I liked the idea of transporting it to different nexi to be able to defend and such.
(And also I held a proxy 3 rax in the custom HotS map with the purifier alone :D)
I don't think that your Oricle idea will work, zerg has a similar spell that is much better. Contaminate, requires 0 supply and besides a lair, no special tech buildings and only costs 50 gas. Guess what? Zerg STILL doesn't use it!
the new protoss units seem very unprotoss like. to me they look out of place. the concept of mama core is ok, but lessen the range maybe and just let it teleport from one nexus to another. the oracle, i dunno haven't seen people use it except for harassment but doesnt last long once AA comes out. tempest, absolutely hate it. the range is stupid and seems unfair to me. bring the carriers back!
I think your Oracle idea is interesting, but cannot work in SC2 as it is now. However, the notion of more production harassment (such as Contaminate) instead of this focus on income harassment is definitely something Blizzard should take into consideration.
First question : Do you even play the beta ? It doesn't look like you do Second question : Holy shit how do I completely disagree with you ( Okay maybe that wasn't a question )
Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you trying to fix non issues ? Oracle afaik seems totally fine, and I've even seen some players QQ about it on twitter ( Scarlett I'm looking at you ) because of how you can not stop entombed because of the range of the spell.
And secondly I myself, do believe that the Tempest is fine. How do you counter it in PvT ? Vikings ? But wait there's stalkers ! But warhounds counter stalkers hard ! Go ahead, a-move your warhouds into 7 tempests + stalker immortal, it may be OP but not THAT OP. You force the T to move his tanks otherwise pewpewpew I shoot your tanks from my nat ( you get the point. ) And then your deathball rolls over his ( if he doesn't go for the standard 200/200 warhounds lolz ) In PvZ how do you counter GGLord/Festor comp ? Tempest. But maybe you just want to still struggle to kill that lategame army with a coinflippy vortex because you can't face the army straight up and then probably miss the chance to balance the lategame fights. Seriously, you seem to have a problem -" Here take this to try and fix the PvZ lategame " - " Ur unit iz shit I dun liek it bring back te o-so-useful-carrier QQ " At least give a chance to the tempest instead of insta raging after 3 days of beta --"
On September 07 2012 23:02 Rimak wrote: Guyz this just hit me somehow, how about if oracle could cast "silence", would that be possible? For those who don't know it's a spell, that prevents units from using any abilities.
The last thing this game needs is more anti micro abilities...
I don't like the ideas of the OP save on: MSC should have the 25 damage attack always on without any additional costs.
He is right about the oracle (cost and usefulness of this unit) and the tempest (just bad). Oracle should be alot cheaper, or have real powerhouse spells on it. Tempest damage could be doubled without being close to imba.
On September 08 2012 03:12 GregMandel wrote: And secondly I myself, do believe that the Tempest is fine. How do you counter it in PvT ? Vikings ? But wait there's stalkers ! But warhounds counter stalkers hard !
Is that a real question? How to counter that 2100mins/2100 gas 42 army supply? Easy: Use Marines and medivacs, stim forward, kill everything in seconds (tempest, stalkers and immortals) knowing he can't possibly have gas left for colossus and end the game that must have been going on for 40min to have these amounts of ressources, in 30 secounds.
On September 08 2012 03:12 GregMandel wrote: At least give a chance to the tempest instead of insta raging after 3 days of beta --"
They should really put him to a test. Make him OP like the warhound, then it will be build more, then we can see if it's a good concept.
I do not like the oracle that much on paper, but if I can see pro gamers use it a lot more (especially early game entomb) I will be able to think about it then. I am curious if early game entomb will provide enough mining harass to actually keep your enemy from getting an army and killing you since you spent so much on the oracle...
I feel like the oracle is the ony unit designed to help the oracle early game (based on abilities), but doesn't seem to actually do that yet.
Yep.. I agree... wtf is the tempest? I think increased DPS/splash & movement speed is all required at the current cost & supply. Still, it's soooo early in the beta that it's pointless to over-do balance until more people use the units and actually learn them.
What if the templar archives gave you DTs and HTs. Then you could use DTs to harass (drops etc) while still being able to defend with something like storm.
It would also solve the issue of poor map control against Zerg early game and would force detection from Z and T (turrets, spores) without investing as many resources into forcing this detection or static defense. Against Zerg you force 3 or 4 spores when you go stargate. This is fine I guess but the investment into forcing those defenses is huge. An investment into DTs is less but achieves a similar result while providing tech that is more useful over the course of the game for example.
On September 07 2012 23:38 NVRLand wrote: I liked the mothership core better when it was stronger and attached to a nexus. I liked the idea of transporting it to different nexi to be able to defend and such.
(And also I held a proxy 3 rax in the custom HotS map with the purifier alone :D)
That's far too strong ! That said I liked the original idea of ferrying it from nexus to nexus, and using it purely as a defensive unit in that sense. It just seems too slow to be a real 'unit' so I liked that aspect of the original concept.
I also wanted it to be an addition to the strategic choices open to Protoss, i.e hyper chrono boost on Nexi for upgrade-centric builds, or to use it purely to defend, or for recall. Quite like the concept at least it's worth playing around with.
- I have no idea why we need a flying 22 range Sentry without FF that costs 300/300 and needs another further upgrade to throw it's cute blue bouncy ball further - Tempest.
It's well known it's intended to deal with brood lord and colossus balls. Which it should, in theory. It's just that it's a very specific role and probably not worth any other use, and therefore should not be "the" capital ship, but just another air unit.
On September 07 2012 23:38 NVRLand wrote: I liked the mothership core better when it was stronger and attached to a nexus. I liked the idea of transporting it to different nexi to be able to defend and such.
(And also I held a proxy 3 rax in the custom HotS map with the purifier alone :D)
Honestly the ability to move the core adds a lot more strategical potential. I've seen toss do everything with it from defending early attacks to 4gating to using the core to recall an entire army into the enemy toss' mineral line!
I think the numbers could still use some tweaking, but it's a cool addition.
Yeah I agree, mothership core at the nexus was a way cooler idea/concept than what it is right now - they finally added some unique mechanic and decided to change it into a floating ball of snail.. why??? ; ;
okay guys the idea just occurred to me, and it's fuckin genius: The tempest can be an upgrade/transformation to the phoenix, right, and you have to research anion pulse whatever at the fleet beacon to allow the phoenix to undergo like a 20 second transformation thing (like corruptor to broodlords) and it turns the phoenix into the tempest but it has better dps. Am I right, or am I right? This way there'd be enough room in the stargate build menu thing to fit the carrier too. Problem = solved
I am not in the beta, and i hope to eventually join it. But from the videos of it that i have seen, i found my self unhappy with what i have seen from Protoss. Toss, is my favorite class to play so maybe i have a bias.
Here is my concern about removing carriers:
Originally Terran had their Thor's altered/removed for the implementation of warhounds, which made the concept of removing another classes units seem a tad bit more fair/balanced. But now Terran and Zerg keep EVERY unit that was in wings of liberty. i no longer see a logical reason to remove the carrier.
Is the concept of having carriers with the tempest (the new capital ship) OP? Well it might be except for the fact that it would take ridiculously long in the game to pull it off. This combo wouldn't be something someone can rush and get away with. Lets not forget that both units need their individual fleet beacon upgrades to be worth while. I think it would be unrealistic to assume that this combo would arise in most pro/ladder games. If by chance it does and is still OP, just change the purpose of the tempest in the Protoss ball.
I agree with everything you said but that Oracle spell...talking about useless harasses what can be more useless than increasing enemy's production costs in a certain area?
1) Not only you count Zerg out, but half of the protoss units comes from gateway. Now, let me use the gateways you did not put the spell on. 2) The AoE on that destabilize would have to be like the size of a base for it to be not retarded 3) This spell is useless when enemy are not making units, i.e are maxed and banking.
On September 08 2012 11:46 R3demption wrote: Holy shit its BACK! Did anyone else see this?
VS
The floating ball of death is back! Except its on the good side this time
Its funny if you see the resemblance
Rofl. So sad and true. Innovative blizzard over here. On topic though. The oracle is shit. "OUR WORKERS ARE UNDER ATTACK" shouldn't be screamed at the player. Considering ya know, his units actually aren't being attacked. Then it might actually stop you from mining for a decent amount of time. As is now you just see people select all the workers, a move then go right back to mining three seconds later. It's a huge waste of energy.
On September 08 2012 11:46 R3demption wrote: Holy shit its BACK! Did anyone else see this?
VS
The floating ball of death is back! Except its on the good side this time
Its funny if you see the resemblance
Rofl. So sad and true. Innovative blizzard over here. On topic though. The oracle is shit. "OUR WORKERS ARE UNDER ATTACK" shouldn't be screamed at the player. Considering ya know, his units actually aren't being attacked. Then it might actually stop you from mining for a decent amount of time. As is now you just see people select all the workers, a move then go right back to mining three seconds later. It's a huge waste of energy.
I agree with that or maybe have the mini-map light up but no audio alert? Something along those lines might be sufficient.
On September 08 2012 03:12 GregMandel wrote: And secondly I myself, do believe that the Tempest is fine. How do you counter it in PvT ? Vikings ? But wait there's stalkers ! But warhounds counter stalkers hard !
Is that a real question? How to counter that 2100mins/2100 gas 42 army supply? Easy: Use Marines and medivacs, stim forward, kill everything in seconds (tempest, stalkers and immortals) knowing he can't possibly have gas left for colossus and end the game that must have been going on for 40min to have these amounts of ressources, in 30 secounds.
On September 08 2012 03:12 GregMandel wrote: At least give a chance to the tempest instead of insta raging after 3 days of beta --"
They should really put him to a test. Make him OP like the warhound, then it will be build more, then we can see if it's a good concept.
Seriously ? I'm talking about PvT versus Mech, what would be the point of the tempest against bio anyways ? Snipe marines from your nat ? FYI when you go mech you don't just spawn 45 rines out of nowhere on 1 rax.
I think Tempests are a great unit. 22 range means I can cripple infestor broodlord armies so that the rest of my units have an easier time. Maybe pick off whatever corruptors i didn't vortex so my colossi can live.
Maybe even viable in PvP. So instead of having colossus wars and both sides going back and forth all the time before the big engagement, you can just park 2-3 tempests on a cliff and shoot colossi.
I skimmed over the OP and started to lose interest when the grammar and use-of-language started to sound like a disheartened adolescent, which is quite disappointing since even IF you did come up with good points you've ruined their depth. Anyway, I guess I have bit onto the subject.
I actually like the dynamics the new units bring. As Sentinel stated above me, the Tempest is a great way to chip away, force position and engagements from a BL/Infestor army. Paired with HT for over-extended Infestors and a MS it's a fantastic combo in that situation where previously protoss had no way to effectively 'herd' the Zerg army.
The Oracle brings a great dynamic in the sense that it doesn't have a place in an army, hence by design it pulls itself out of the deathball. Entomb is a good economic harassment skill. The problem is where they place the Oracle outside of its primary function. There is two outcomes: Remove its alternate functions and reduce its cost OR improve its alternate abilities to accommodate for its cost.
The Mothership Core fits very well with the new direction of the Protoss race. It's designed to provide early defensive support without pulling away from the tech-path (replacing forges and cannons) and furthermore, allowing a heavy, harassment-centric mid-game with the use of Recall. Personally, Purify needs to be buffed: Perhaps increase its attack speed significantly. On the other hand, I don't think Energize should be in the game, at least not on the Mothership Core. To be honest it has a very niche use, perhaps too situational, and it pulls away from the more interesting dynamics that the Mothership Core brings: guerrilla warfare and drive-by antics.
So personally, I would remove Energize, buff Purify, reduce the energy cost of Oracle abilities (to accommodate for the loss of Energize) and perhaps improve the Oracles alternate functions.
One idea of my own I would like to put forward: Shield upgrades at a forge increase the HP of Entomb. Thoughts?
I think it's fine. It give Protoss a lot of subtle changes to their early game. Tweaks are fine, but overall I think it's a strong idea and as a design concept the strongest one in HoTS (Viper probably coming in second).
Oracle
One thing that has been mentioned, and didn't really consider until now is that the gas costs are way too high and overall the unit is fairly weak. Cloak was an interesting idea, and I would be curious to see it return. Honestly, the reality is that someone important at Blizzard absolutely loves this unit, and it's not going to get fundamental changes.
Tempest
I'd remove the Fleet Beacon requirement (unless they get a serious damage boost, which would create problems, these are not functional as a capital ship and are more a support unit) and make it work as a void ray in reverse, i.e. it charges when it does not attack. This ups the burst damage into a lot (think Mini Yamato Cannons). However, after the initial volley, it decreases to current DPS levels. If done right, I see a lot of strategic possibilities for this unit. If done wrong, it'll never be used.
Carrier
Sure, bring it back. I'm not nostalgic for it, but I don't see why it should be axed. It's not broken, and it's not unplayable. Taking away a toy for no reason seems illogical. This is an expansion... you are not supposed to remove content.
I'm almost upset that every protoss stream I've watched in the beta now doesn't use the new units after the novelty of new units has worn off. The units made/built are literally the same from wol. Blizzard needs to think about Protoss. Hard.
It feels like the only thing they've changed is the high ground warp in nerf... therefore actually reducing the number of strategies that are viable.
Seriously by the time tempests are on the field(unless you tempest rush off 1 base which is retarded), any race can afford MASS detection. What kind of retard is gonna allow an observer to float over their army when tempests are on the field?
I don't understand why protoss needs another harassment unit in the first place. They have the phoenix. They have the warp prism. It just makes absolutely no sense.
On September 09 2012 04:51 denyeverything wrote: Tempest
I'd remove the Fleet Beacon requirement (unless they get a serious damage boost, which would create problems, these are not functional as a capital ship and are more a support unit) and make it work as a void ray in reverse, i.e. it charges when it does not attack. This ups the burst damage into a lot (think Mini Yamato Cannons). However, after the initial volley, it decreases to current DPS levels. If done right, I see a lot of strategic possibilities for this unit. If done wrong, it'll never be used.
This is exactly my thoughts too. The tempest is not a capital ship. It is supposed to do the poking. I like your way of thinking of it as a reverse void ray. I would be fine with the void ray being taken away and replaced with this new tempest, instead keeping the carrier as the capital ship.
Once you acquire a few Tempests, I think no one would dare to base-race against you (since you will have plenty of vision to shoot your opponents afar). Am I thinking right?
On September 09 2012 06:07 usethis2 wrote: Once you acquire a few Tempests, I think no one would dare to base-race against you (since you will have plenty of vision to shoot your opponents afar). Am I thinking right?
No, the DPS is laughable, you would lose every base race.
On September 09 2012 06:07 usethis2 wrote: Once you acquire a few Tempests, I think no one would dare to base-race against you (since you will have plenty of vision to shoot your opponents afar). Am I thinking right?
No, the DPS is laughable, you would lose every base race.
No I think what he means is your army goes and kills his base, while your tempests slow down his progress by picking off units.
That's what I would do in a situation like that anyway.
Not sure if I agree with the changes, but its clear to me that Protoss gets the shitty end of the stick with this expansion. I think toss needs more early/mid game stuff. Mothership Core is good, but I think a new unit that can be warped in from the Twilight Council would be a good addition. Because the way things are now, I can see a lot of players switching to Zerg or Terran.
On September 09 2012 06:30 Havik_ wrote: Not sure if I agree with the changes, but its clear to me that Protoss gets the shitty end of the stick with this expansion. I think toss needs more early/mid game stuff. Mothership Core is good, but I think a new unit that can be warped in from the Twilight Council would be a good addition. Because the way things are now, I can see a lot of players switching to Zerg or Terran.
How can you see me? Where are you? =P
But seriously, yeah there is no reason to stick with toss. Why play WoL when then other races get to play HotS?
The Oracle is weird in its current incarnation. Anyway, if Protoss need more harass options that does not mean that they need a harass unit. Rather, Protoss need a unit that can harass effectively (and also do other stuff). I reckon the Phoenix can, maybe, still do harass effectively (and also lead to greater SG play) by just reducing the energy requirement for the GV beam (say 25 energy). You then have a unit that can harass better but can also be used in big battles even if the opponent does not go heavy air (i.e. the Phoenix retains its usefulness throughout the game against Air and Ground).
On September 09 2012 06:07 usethis2 wrote: Once you acquire a few Tempests, I think no one would dare to base-race against you (since you will have plenty of vision to shoot your opponents afar). Am I thinking right?
No, the DPS is laughable, you would lose every base race.
No I think what he means is your army goes and kills his base, while your tempests slow down his progress by picking off units.
That's what I would do in a situation like that anyway.
Yes, that's what I meant. They won't completely stop full-blown base race, but I think the one with Tempests would have at least a meaningful upper hand by chipping away key enemy units (like mutas or medivacs) in your base while the rest your army breaking down his base. If you do that while being able to sneak out probes for constructing new buildings elsewhere (preferably where your main army is) that gives you a significant advantage, I'd think?
On September 09 2012 06:47 aZealot wrote: The Oracle is weird in its current incarnation. Anyway, if Protoss need more harass options that does not mean that they need a harass unit. Rather, Protoss need a unit that can harass effectively (and also do other stuff). I reckon the Phoenix can, maybe, still do harass effectively (and also lead to greater SG play) by just reducing the energy requirement for the GV beam (say 25 energy). You then have a unit that can harass better but can also be used in big battles even if the opponent does not go heavy air (i.e. the Phoenix retains its usefulness throughout the game against Air and Ground).
YES! I was thinking that making Graviton Beam 25 energy would be a good change too. I mean you have to channel it! And with Blizzard lowering the energy costs by 25 on Raven HSM and Yamato gun, why not on the raven too? They are exploring possibilities with the other races, but not protoss...
On September 09 2012 06:46 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Terran was super OP at the beginning of WoL as well, remember?
I think the races will somewhat stabilize, at the worst case protoss in HotS release will be like Terran in WoL today.
No the worst case is that Protoss in HotS will be like Protoss in WoL today. If they don't add anything interesting it'll be a travesty
I think that would be best case. Protoss is relatively balanced with Zerg right now, maybe a bit off. Having the same level would be very nice.
So you would pay for an expansion for the same Protoss gameplay and unit compositions as the original? I know I wouldn't. If nothing changes, I'll be playing terran and zerg equally.
On September 09 2012 06:07 usethis2 wrote: Once you acquire a few Tempests, I think no one would dare to base-race against you (since you will have plenty of vision to shoot your opponents afar). Am I thinking right?
No, the DPS is laughable, you would lose every base race.
No I think what he means is your army goes and kills his base, while your tempests slow down his progress by picking off units.
That's what I would do in a situation like that anyway.
It doesn't matter, the DPS is still laughable and you will lose...
I thought the Tempest was supposed to have a splash radius. They should put that back in or something.
I am totally digging this 22 range business though. Such a unit is very cool. Because it also forces you to organize range for the unit. It makes preordain and observers so important.
On September 09 2012 06:46 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Terran was super OP at the beginning of WoL as well, remember?
I think the races will somewhat stabilize, at the worst case protoss in HotS release will be like Terran in WoL today.
No the worst case is that Protoss in HotS will be like Protoss in WoL today. If they don't add anything interesting it'll be a travesty
I think that would be best case. Protoss is relatively balanced with Zerg right now, maybe a bit off. Having the same level would be very nice.
By balanced you mean the only way for protoss to stand a chance of winning (with the exception of the zerg fucking up his brood lord splits or something - basically zerg mistakes) is 2 base all ins? And that's balanced? Okay then.
Overall the matchup statistically is balanced, but if you look at how many matches are won by two base allins and take them out of the equation, I think you'll find it's heavily zerg favoured.
Do you guys remember the first HotS presentation at Blizzcon last year? When it came to Protoss there was a unit, the "replicant", which David Kim introduced with about these words: "And this is the Replicant, it can turn itself into enemy units, but we are still kinda trying to figure out what to do exactly with it so if you have any ideas please let us know".
That's when I realized that Blizzard has absolutely no friggin clue of what they're doing with HotS. They have been completely unprepared on the subject for more than a year now, and it shows: nearly all of their intentions have been wiped out, they wanted to give terran a new mini-thor because thor itself is a unit with many problems (size for instance), and now? Warhound is actually an antimech instead of antiair and thor is still there with no change. They wanted to give Protoss a new harassing tool because Protoss never had a proper way to harass except for their imagination, and in the end (i promise, i KNEW it would happen) Oracle costs a shitload of money for subpar abilities. Only zerg kinda remained on the tracks they put in the beginning.
This is not to say that I wasn't expecting changes in the last year, of course I was. But I was also expecting changes to go along the route of some objectives. The problem with this beta isn't that some units are too weak or too strong numerically speaking, something that could relatively easily be tuned with trial and error in the next months. The problem with this beta, and with protoss ESPECIALLY, is that there are design choices which make completely zero sense, the reasoning behind the new units and how they work (alone or with the rest of the army) is something appalling. And the worst part, call me pessimistc, is that for what I know of Blizzard they are never going back on their steps at this stage of development, so you can rest assured that however tweaked and turned, we're gonna have our HotS expansion full of shitty monoclick-play warhounds, boring 22 range units that play by themselves, useless 200 gas "harassing" units and so on.
I would like to join in with the many others that Entomb is just stupid, and please get rid of it.
Give the Oracle some army utility, like that cloaking spell they had intended before .. in fact replace Entomb with Cloaking, and that'll allow for some interesting early-midgame Protoss pressure.
Mothership core should be restricted to moving in only Pylon radiuses, which will solve MC pushes and allow for it to move faster.
There's not much to say about the Tempest though, I wish they'd have something to solve Colossi wars in PvP. Or to give a Dark Shrine techpath more utility than just DTs ..
The problem with the Tempest is that Protoss already have a unit which should counter colossi and brood lords, it's called "void ray", unfortunately much like other units (phoenix vs mutas anyone?) it never really worked for its intended role. Obviously trying to fix that and maybe keep (and fix) carriers in the process didn't seem like a bright idea to Blizzard: why fix broken units and make them viable when we can try to render them obsolete and create new broken units?
On September 09 2012 06:46 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Terran was super OP at the beginning of WoL as well, remember?
I think the races will somewhat stabilize, at the worst case protoss in HotS release will be like Terran in WoL today.
No the worst case is that Protoss in HotS will be like Protoss in WoL today. If they don't add anything interesting it'll be a travesty
I think that would be best case. Protoss is relatively balanced with Zerg right now, maybe a bit off. Having the same level would be very nice.
By balanced you mean the only way for protoss to stand a chance of winning (with the exception of the zerg fucking up his brood lord splits or something - basically zerg mistakes) is 2 base all ins? And that's balanced? Okay then.
Overall the matchup statistically is balanced, but if you look at how many matches are won by two base allins and take them out of the equation, I think you'll find it's heavily zerg favoured.
Wait what? Whatever happened to good old warp prism/zealot harassment and properly placed mothership vortexes? PvZ is played like TvP - you don't engage his deathball at all if possible, just keep poking holes in him until you simply win. Snipe with blink stalkers. Zealot drops. Storm drops. Midgame void rays. Maybe some dark templar. Protoss has the most harassment options of the three races.
On September 09 2012 11:38 RehnFreemark wrote: Do you guys remember the first HotS presentation at Blizzcon last year? When it came to Protoss there was a unit, the "replicant", which David Kim introduced with about these words: "And this is the Replicant, it can turn itself into enemy units, but we are still kinda trying to figure out what to do exactly with it so if you have any ideas please let us know".
That's when I realized that Blizzard has absolutely no friggin clue of what they're doing with HotS. They have been completely unprepared on the subject for more than a year now, and it shows: nearly all of their intentions have been wiped out, they wanted to give terran a new mini-thor because thor itself is a unit with many problems (size for instance), and now? Warhound is actually an antimech instead of antiair and thor is still there with no change. They wanted to give Protoss a new harassing tool because Protoss never had a proper way to harass except for their imagination, and in the end (i promise, i KNEW it would happen) Oracle costs a shitload of money for subpar abilities. Only zerg kinda remained on the tracks they put in the beginning.
This is not to say that I wasn't expecting changes in the last year, of course I was. But I was also expecting changes to go along the route of some objectives. The problem with this beta isn't that some units are too weak or too strong numerically speaking, something that could relatively easily be tuned with trial and error in the next months. The problem with this beta, and with protoss ESPECIALLY, is that there are design choices which make completely zero sense, the reasoning behind the new units and how they work (alone or with the rest of the army) is something appalling. And the worst part, call me pessimistc, is that for what I know of Blizzard they are never going back on their steps at this stage of development, so you can rest assured that however tweaked and turned, we're gonna have our HotS expansion full of shitty monoclick-play warhounds, boring 22 range units that play by themselves, useless 200 gas "harassing" units and so on.
IIRC one of the first patches in the WoL beta was the deletion of two Mothership spells and the addition of the Mass Recall. The High Templar also gained and lost a spell in this same patch. Then later on we got other changes such as D-8 charge removal, a complete change of the role of the hydralisk, and corruption basically became a brand new spell in everything but name.
What all this goes to show is that Blizzard does whatever the hell they want, and in the end we're going to enjoy whatever it is they make. That's why we have a beta.
On September 09 2012 06:46 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Terran was super OP at the beginning of WoL as well, remember?
I think the races will somewhat stabilize, at the worst case protoss in HotS release will be like Terran in WoL today.
No the worst case is that Protoss in HotS will be like Protoss in WoL today. If they don't add anything interesting it'll be a travesty
I think that would be best case. Protoss is relatively balanced with Zerg right now, maybe a bit off. Having the same level would be very nice.
By balanced you mean the only way for protoss to stand a chance of winning (with the exception of the zerg fucking up his brood lord splits or something - basically zerg mistakes) is 2 base all ins? And that's balanced? Okay then.
Overall the matchup statistically is balanced, but if you look at how many matches are won by two base allins and take them out of the equation, I think you'll find it's heavily zerg favoured.
Wait what? Whatever happened to good old warp prism/zealot harassment and properly placed mothership vortexes? PvZ is played like TvP - you don't engage his deathball at all if possible, just keep poking holes in him until you simply win. Snipe with blink stalkers. Zealot drops. Storm drops. Midgame void rays. Maybe some dark templar. Protoss has the most harassment options of the three races.
People really don't seem to get the Tempest. It's not really an army unit, or a harass unit. It's certainly not an air superiority unit. You're not supposed to a-move them with your army. You're not supposed to tech up to them as some sort of Protoss version of the "gg lord" (or a Protoss version of the anti-colossus Viking fleet).
It's a siege breaker/map control/anti-deathball unit. I'd say it's closest analog is the nuke. The ridiculous range is there for a reason, and that reason is forcing the enemy to engage or retreat, because along with the Oracle's Revelation spell, it can attack the opponent's power units without putting your own army into play.
It has low DPS exactly because it's not meant for surprise snipes. But when they start shooting at Colossi or Infestors or Broodlords or HTs or tanks, the opponent has to react or lose his expensive tech. That reaction will either force an engagement that is advantageous to you, or a retreat that allows you to secure an area held by your opponent (Xel'Naga tower/choke/high ground).
On September 09 2012 12:23 yeint wrote: People really don't seem to get the Tempest. It's not really an army unit, or a harass unit. It's certainly not an air superiority unit. You're not supposed to a-move them with your army. You're not supposed to tech up to them as some sort of Protoss version of the "gg lord" (or a Protoss version of the anti-colossus Viking fleet).
It's a siege breaker/map control/anti-deathball unit. I'd say it's closest analog is the nuke. The ridiculous range is there for a reason, and that reason is forcing the enemy to engage or retreat, because along with the Oracle's Revelation spell, it can attack the opponent's power units without putting your own army into play.
It has low DPS exactly because it's not meant for surprise snipes. But when they start shooting at Colossi or Infestors or Broodlords or HTs or tanks, the opponent has to react or lose his expensive tech. That reaction will either force an engagement that is advantageous to you, or a retreat that allows you to secure an area held by your opponent (Xel'Naga tower/choke/high ground).
No, just no. If he has 1 or 2 tempests, just completely ignore him, their DPS will take them ages to bring your units down. If he has plenty of Tempests, just go and smash his armies into pieces, since he wasted too much his resources and supply on those expensive flying sentries that will make his armies inferior compare to yours
On September 09 2012 12:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: IIRC one of the first patches in the WoL beta was the deletion of two Mothership spells and the addition of the Mass Recall. The High Templar also gained and lost a spell in this same patch. Then later on we got other changes such as D-8 charge removal, a complete change of the role of the hydralisk, and corruption basically became a brand new spell in everything but name.
What all this goes to show is that Blizzard does whatever the hell they want, and in the end we're going to enjoy whatever it is they make. That's why we have a beta.
WoL is full of awful things that never got corrected because they are design issues. Take PvP. In 2 years the best they have done has been destroy 4 gate, but PvP still remains a bucket of shit to this day. Not that I have a simple way of fixing it: as I said it's a design issue, something that would require the entire race to be reworked from scratch. You might still enjoy it, I personally stopped playing months ago, under the vague hope that they would try to improve the game drastically with HotS. What they're doing is under everybody's eyes, put it some new units which hardly make any sense. You can hope that since this is still a beta things will magically turn awesome at release, and when the game is out and is a mess maybe you'll be hoping that Legacy of the Void will fix it.
I think everything is ok except the destabilize. and toss needs other options to play. Just like how terran can go bio and mech and how zerg has so many styles to play around with vs each matchup. Toss just has the same old composition...
On September 09 2012 06:46 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Terran was super OP at the beginning of WoL as well, remember?
I think the races will somewhat stabilize, at the worst case protoss in HotS release will be like Terran in WoL today.
No the worst case is that Protoss in HotS will be like Protoss in WoL today. If they don't add anything interesting it'll be a travesty
I think that would be best case. Protoss is relatively balanced with Zerg right now, maybe a bit off. Having the same level would be very nice.
By balanced you mean the only way for protoss to stand a chance of winning (with the exception of the zerg fucking up his brood lord splits or something - basically zerg mistakes) is 2 base all ins? And that's balanced? Okay then.
Overall the matchup statistically is balanced, but if you look at how many matches are won by two base allins and take them out of the equation, I think you'll find it's heavily zerg favoured.
Wait what? Whatever happened to good old warp prism/zealot harassment and properly placed mothership vortexes? PvZ is played like TvP - you don't engage his deathball at all if possible, just keep poking holes in him until you simply win. Snipe with blink stalkers. Zealot drops. Storm drops. Midgame void rays. Maybe some dark templar. Protoss has the most harassment options of the three races.
You play toss?
Yes. I've used about three of these and seen every example I've provided used frequently in higher level PvZ.
On September 09 2012 12:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: IIRC one of the first patches in the WoL beta was the deletion of two Mothership spells and the addition of the Mass Recall. The High Templar also gained and lost a spell in this same patch. Then later on we got other changes such as D-8 charge removal, a complete change of the role of the hydralisk, and corruption basically became a brand new spell in everything but name.
What all this goes to show is that Blizzard does whatever the hell they want, and in the end we're going to enjoy whatever it is they make. That's why we have a beta.
WoL is full of awful things that never got corrected because they are design issues. Take PvP. In 2 years the best they have done has been destroy 4 gate, but PvP still remains a bucket of shit to this day. Not that I have a simple way of fixing it: as I said it's a design issue, something that would require the entire race to be reworked from scratch. You might still enjoy it, I personally stopped playing months ago, under the vague hope that they would try to improve the game drastically with HotS. What they're doing is under everybody's eyes, put it some new units which hardly make any sense. You can hope that since this is still a beta things will magically turn awesome at release, and when the game is out and is a mess maybe you'll be hoping that Legacy of the Void will fix it.
I half agree with you on that point. PvP has a lot of design issues but I still enjoy it, it's not completely linear and there's a little bit of variation which is fun to mess around with, but yes definitely it needs to be reworked.
I would like to see a new style akin to Terran mech and Zerg... does it even have a name? Basically units such as hydras and the new units that all have new roles in the expansion. Protoss... let's see... you've got mass recall on the mothership core, a safer, faster, more expensive observer that denies minerals, and a brood lord breaker as well as potential worker sniper. I have a feeling Bnet is taking Protoss harassment way too far. I'll stick to phoenixes and drops for harassment, tyvm, and I'd like just some sort of extended stargate play that isn't 100% harassment.
Protoss basically have the same units as WoL, I have seen nothing that changes the lack of mobility and harass in HoTS, There units are just too gas heavy and the new units are no different. Protoss players have been hosed
Blizzard really should stop trying to design units for niche roles because they really don't seem to have a clue -.-
They should instead make interesting-seeming units with a lot of different micro possibilities and let the players figure out the uses for them. All those targeted units for a specific purpose are just atrociously bad. What legitly good, interesting idea has Blizzard even come up with in SC2? I'm really trying to think of one...
On September 09 2012 23:15 Shikyo wrote: Blizzard really should stop trying to design units for niche roles because they really don't seem to have a clue -.-
They should instead make interesting-seeming units with a lot of different micro possibilities and let the players figure out the uses for them. All those targeted units for a specific purpose are just atrociously bad. What legitly good, interesting idea has Blizzard even come up with in SC2? I'm really trying to think of one...
The phoenix? It can be used for worker harassment, lifting enemy units in PvP, overlord hunting, queen sniping, and a bunch of other things.
The infestor to some extent. It's interesting to use and takes some skill to land proper fungals, infested terran walls, etc. and doesn't have a single purpose. It's a support unit for anything from lings to brood lords, and can still be used for worker harassment with burrow.
On September 09 2012 23:15 Shikyo wrote: Blizzard really should stop trying to design units for niche roles because they really don't seem to have a clue -.-
They should instead make interesting-seeming units with a lot of different micro possibilities and let the players figure out the uses for them. All those targeted units for a specific purpose are just atrociously bad. What legitly good, interesting idea has Blizzard even come up with in SC2? I'm really trying to think of one...
The phoenix? It can be used for worker harassment, lifting enemy units in PvP, overlord hunting, queen sniping, and a bunch of other things.
The infestor to some extent. It's interesting to use and takes some skill to land proper fungals, infested terran walls, etc. and doesn't have a single purpose. It's a support unit for anything from lings to brood lords, and can still be used for worker harassment with burrow.
That's true, Phoenix is kind of a good one. I don't like the autoshoot but otherwise it's an interesting unit. I'd prefer it if it was more powerful, had no autoshoot but if microed could move exactly as it does with autoshoot. However as is it's passable. The liftup is kind of dumb, though, in that it has no counter(okay killing the phoenix but meh). If it was, say, an AoE spell that doesn't allow people to fire and lets you shoot at them while they're underneath it they can still move out of the way.
Infestor would be if Fungal wasn't so stupid(anti-micro). and Infested Terrans weren't so stupid. I really feel like they could have done much better with the unit... The fungal having no counter after it hits is pretty silly, in my opinion. Even if it slowed by 50% you could still spread against banelings, for instance. If it was a 0.5s delay from the ground you could move out of the way. If it was a skillshot exploding projectile you could have a single unit in the front taking the AoE saving the rest of your army, but if you don't they get fungaled. Or make Fungal channeled so you are freed if you kill the Infestor. Etc Etc. The important thing is being able to counter every spell if you are skilled enough.
At this point I really feel like they just don't understand Protoss and they wouldn't even have bothered putting them in the game if it wasn't for broodwar. If you look at the patch history of WOL you can clearly see how they feel about the race.
Warp gate research nerfed several times, forge build time nerfed, zealot build time nerfed, fungal stops blink, hell even pylons got nerfed. The robo units got buffed (obs, prism, and immortal). Ironically the units everyone complained about (FF, colossus) never got changed after beta (I think hallucination got a buff somewhere?). Charge got buffed (they called it a bug fix) and the phoenix got some buffs. Also, they removed the energy upgrade for templar, instead of doing what everyone said to do and just lower the energy by 5 so you can't "warp in storms".
The thing that proves how little they "get" protoss, is that most of these changes were directed at pvp and pvt. I believe every one of those changes except fungal stopping blink was directed at those 2 matchups. Yet every single one had a huge effect on PvZ. Which put us where PvZ is today, protoss gets 2 bases and zerg gets 3 free bases. Both races hit production timings about the same time, with the protoss cutting a bunch of corners to get there. Then the protoss 2 base all ins and a the matchup becomes a coin flip. The only time a protoss really gets a 3rd on time, is when the zerg messes up and lets them.
Protoss has had it's core ripped out. Let's face it, blink stalkers and chargelots are awesome, zealots and stalkers suck so bad you can't survive without FF. But if you want those sweet upgrades as early as say, stim, combat shield, concussive, roach or ling speed, you have to sacrifice the robo, and protoss is not the same without those robo units IMO.
This is why the mothership core was added, to fill the hole in protoss early game left by repeated nerfs and the weakness of gateway units without upgrades or heavy gas units like sentries, templar, or robo units. I don't even know what to say about the oracle, EVERY protoss I can remember hearing from said things like "the oracle looks interesting, but I'd still rather kill workers!"
I don't think anyone can disagree that protoss was in a much better state in Broodwar than in WOL or HOTS. I'd honestly like to see how the broodwar protoss would matchup against the WOL or HOTS terran/zerg. Dragoons > stalkers, Reavers > immortals or colossus, corsair > phoenix, shield batteries > ???. Anyone remember a templar archive giving you DT and HT? Prisms and warp ins were a big improvement to the race, crono is good, but I (wish protoss) could live without sentries.
In broodwar protoss had terrifying harass from reavers, and strong armies of goons and zealots that didn't have to be scared of terran and zerg early game units. They had to be cautious of mass hydra,lurkers, siege tanks, and spider mines. In sc2 protoss can't even fight MM, or roach ling in the early stages without abusing the shit out of FF.
Can we just get rid of all the stupid protoss gimmicks and go back to having a tough core army, that can be cost affective without all the B.S.? HOTS was the chance to make protoss a solid race without relying on gimmicks, but the truth is in the light now. Blizzards balance team wasn't able to fix all the holes in protoss during WOL, and the Design team wasn't able to fix those same holes with new units in HOTS. They just don't actually understand what needs to be fixed, and they certainly have shown they are incapable of executing the needed changes.
For counters to spells, there's infested terran dodging, i.e. fighting the Zerg in a way that infested terrans are doing minimal damage to your army while keeping everything else as equal as possible. Fungal can be countered by mass recall, which going back to mothership core would actually be pretty useful. When I watch PvZ on streams, or I think it even happened on TSL a few times, warp prism or void ray would get fungaled to death. Having the ability to recall from cyber core tech would be a good counter.
For things you can dodge, there are storms and... not a lot of spells. Ok you got me there. I like lift better than d-web though, I think it's a nice offensive spell. It can take out key units like immortals and sentries and completely change an engagement, while dweb was more like a psi storm that didn't do damage.
As for the BW/SC2 comparisons, a lot of those are false in my opinion. Stalkers shoot and move faster, making them better for killing things like marines and zealots than dragoons while worse at armored things like other stalkers or marauders. Immortals have a completely different role from reavers, and a reaver would be much worse at the immortal's job due to low dps, high cost, and low durability.
Reaver vs. colossus is questionable. I'd rather have colossi but the startup tech is more expensive. Reavers aren't deathball units anyway, they're harassment units. Corsairs were used mostly in PvZ as an anti-mutalisk counter and general harassment unit. There are other uses but that was the main one. And phoenix exceeds all bounds in that role. It does 20 damage per volley against a mutalisk (you'd need 7 stacked mutas for that kind of splash), is more mobile, and can shoot things on the ground. Shield batteries... I see a role for those bad boys but I can live without them. I'd rather have forcefields and let my shields recharge over the time I bought.
I'd go with WoL protoss over BW protoss any day.
I think BW toss was a lot like WoL terran in the Tier 1 centric army. Now in all three matchups toss has a good mix of initial gateway units, zealot stalker sentry, while incorporating tier 2 immortals or warp prisms or phoenixes, and tier 3 archons, HT, colli, and heck, even the tier 4 mothership.
Forcefields are actually good measurements of skill. Over time a player can trap more units in better spots with them, or block out roaches as the situation calls. Saying FF spam is abuse is like saying Terran can't contain Protoss without abusing the shit out of spider mines.
I agree with your last paragraph to some extent, however. Like I said before, I don't want harassment units, I just want some good air units akin to Terran mech.
after watching much stream, I'd say this is WoL+, not HotS. The expansion is supposed to drastically change the way the race is played. But toss is essentially the same composition every game. The oracle is created just for shift-queuing, MsCore is mainly for recall a harassing hit squad, and theres not much thing to say about Tempest except that they kill warhounds effectively (yea luckily warhound cant shoot air). Thats so little change there, and by "change", they are all bad ones. Why forcing a bad design down our throat? Hows about experimenting some modifies to warp gates unit or the ever-hated collossus? If theres something I learnt about HotS, it's that the dev team is lazy, not creative and stubborn as fuck
Protoss just becomes harder and thats good because It was the least mechanically demanding race, even Artosis said it. It was pretty much sitting only on 2/3 bases and attacking. Now you got chances to expand because you can pin your enemy at his base with your new oracle and even scout him with it.
On September 10 2012 01:23 D4V3Z02 wrote: Protoss just becomes harder and thats good because It was the least mechanically demanding race, even Artosis said it. It was pretty much sitting only on 2/3 bases and attacking. Now you got chances to expand because you can pin your enemy at his base with your new oracle and even scout him with it.
Oh, bullshit.
Spamming marines and marauders is the least mechanically demanding race.
I owned a diamond Terran in WoL the other week with high templars. I asked him why he didn't produce a single ghost the entire match. He answered that he's not grandmaster and can't be expected to do all that complicated stuff like upgrading to tier 3 and using EMP.
That's Terran. You're Modern Warfare 2 kiddies turned SC2 players. Bread and butter stuff for gold league Toss players, like upgrading to tier 3 and using spells, is over the head of all but the best Terrans.
On September 10 2012 00:56 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I'd go with WoL protoss over BW protoss any day.
I'm the opposite way. For me, the only Wings units that clearly win out over their Brood War equivalents are the warp prism and the observer (because fuck the observatory, yo). And I guess void rays are better than scouts because... scouts were scouts.
I'd rather have multiple arbiters zipping around throwing out stasis and doing offensive recalls than a lone mothership that moves slower than an episode of The Walking Dead. I'd take the absurd front-loaded burst damage of a reaver over the colossus' lasers. I'd take useful carriers versus modern carriers. And stalkers better at killing marines than dragoons were? Hell...
And despite my negativity... HotS looks a lot better than it did a few months ago. Early-game recall looks awesome. No more replicant is something I can get behind. I like having detection on the stargate, even if I don't like the oracle.
On September 10 2012 00:56 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I'd go with WoL protoss over BW protoss any day.
I'm the opposite way. For me, the only Wings units that clearly win out over their Brood War equivalents are the warp prism and the observer (because fuck the observatory, yo). And I guess void rays are better than scouts because... scouts were scouts.
I'd rather have multiple arbiters zipping around throwing out stasis and doing offensive recalls than a lone mothership that moves slower than an episode of The Walking Dead. I'd take the absurd front-loaded burst damage of a reaver over the colossus' lasers. I'd take useful carriers versus modern carriers. And stalkers better at killing marines than dragoons were? Hell...
And despite my negativity... HotS looks a lot better than it did a few months ago. Early-game recall looks awesome. No more replicant is something I can get behind. I like having detection on the stargate, even if I don't like the oracle.
On September 10 2012 01:23 D4V3Z02 wrote: Protoss just becomes harder and thats good because It was the least mechanically demanding race, even Artosis said it. It was pretty much sitting only on 2/3 bases and attacking. Now you got chances to expand because you can pin your enemy at his base with your new oracle and even scout him with it.
Oh, bullshit.
Spamming marines and marauders is the least mechanically demanding race.
I owned a diamond Terran in WoL the other week with high templars. I asked him why he didn't produce a single ghost the entire match. He answered that he's not grandmaster and can't be expected to do all that complicated stuff like upgrading to tier 3 and using EMP.
That's Terran. You're Modern Warfare 2 kiddies turned SC2 players. Bread and butter stuff for gold league Toss players, like upgrading to tier 3 and using spells, is over the head of all but the best Terrans.
this post made me sexually aroused. Big QFT
Besides saying that in hots "protoss becomes harder" is exceedingly laughable. What makes it harder? A caster unit that you just fly in, [E]ntomb, fly out? A nobrainer unit that shoots from a range of 22 and cannot be microed even if you wanted to? The mothership core with it's whopping 0.44 speed and 1 click to make it attack? Is this what you consider "harder"? My guess is you play terran, don't you?
Warhound = boring a-move unit. Tempest concept so boring compared to carries and interceptors. Oracle = FF minerals, so one dimensional and no room for player creativity =(
There are so many other way to fix the carrier but I think blizzard just doesn't want to for some reason. They want us to love the new unit and play the way they think we should. The attitude was the same way in D3 during launch and beta "play the game the way we want you to and what we say how to have fun".
Why can't they just design interesting kickass units and let the players get creative with how they should be used.
On September 10 2012 01:23 D4V3Z02 wrote: Protoss just becomes harder and thats good because It was the least mechanically demanding race, even Artosis said it. It was pretty much sitting only on 2/3 bases and attacking. Now you got chances to expand because you can pin your enemy at his base with your new oracle and even scout him with it.
Oh, bullshit.
Spamming marines and marauders is the least mechanically demanding race.
I owned a diamond Terran in WoL the other week with high templars. I asked him why he didn't produce a single ghost the entire match. He answered that he's not grandmaster and can't be expected to do all that complicated stuff like upgrading to tier 3 and using EMP.
That's Terran. You're Modern Warfare 2 kiddies turned SC2 players. Bread and butter stuff for gold league Toss players, like upgrading to tier 3 and using spells, is over the head of all but the best Terrans.
Hey clicking back and forth is actually high level micro with a ton of decision making...
I am surprised with all the hate for the mothership core. It looks like something that could be really promising. That extra energy and the ability to finally save your gas heavy units seems to add a ton of resilience that simply isn't here in SC2 Toss.
On September 10 2012 02:00 Sabu113 wrote: I am surprised with all the hate for the mothership core. It looks like something that could be really promising. That extra energy and the ability to finally save your gas heavy units seems to add a ton of resilience that simply isn't here in SC2 Toss.
The Mothership Core is probably the only unit worth saving as it is, because its defense potential with the Purify ability is not completely laughable. The mass recall ability is a big question mark as of now, it's good for obvious reasons (mass recall duh), but you have to understand that in HotS (beta) Protoss have the same early-mid pressure ability they had in WoL, and that amounts to nearly zero. There's a reason why Protoss tend to all in a lot and that's because our early pushes are pretty weak compared to those of other races, unless we completely commit to them (all in). We were supposed to have a new harassment unit, after praying for one for the last two years, and what we got is the Oracle.
As more beta replays come out for HotS, I'm starting to think part of the problem is that both terran and zerg got units "specifically" designed to help them versus protoss... But protoss didn't get a unit that's specifically designed to help them with either race... Oh, wait, we got that capital ship tempest thing right? It's supposed to deal with brood lords and siege tanks!!! Oh what was that? You say the tempest can't even do that... oh...
On September 10 2012 02:14 draemn wrote: As more beta replays come out for HotS, I'm starting to think part of the problem is that both terran and zerg got units "specifically" designed to help them versus protoss... But protoss didn't get a unit that's specifically designed to help them with either race... Oh, wait, we got that capital ship tempest thing right? It's supposed to deal with brood lords and siege tanks!!! Oh what was that? You say the tempest can't even do that... oh...
It kills them siege tanks, alright.
Then after the terran army has stood still for 5 minutes and lost all their tanks you're going to strike with your timing attack.
That thread is scaring me. The Mothership Core seems to be great as is. Although I do like the suggestion that Tempests do bonus damage to armored units. Since we are going to be sniping Brood Lords and Tanks with them, amirite?
And holy shit do people want Warp Gate gone. I think it's a great, unique mechanic personally. The idea of getting your units first and then waiting for cooldown is very interesting to play with IMO.
Anyways, someone go count the number of abilities added and removed during the WoL beta. It's a big number. Quit whining and wait for some patches.
On September 10 2012 02:19 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: That thread is scaring me. The Mothership Core seems to be great as is. Although I do like the suggestion that Tempests do bonus damage to armored units. Since we are going to be sniping Brood Lords and Tanks with them, amirite?
And holy shit do people want Warp Gate gone. I think it's a great, unique mechanic personally. The idea of getting your units first and then waiting for cooldown is very interesting to play with IMO.
Anyways, someone go count the number of abilities added and removed during the WoL beta. It's a big number. Quit whining and wait for some patches.
My problem with this beta is that imho it should never have come to beta stage in this state. Seriously, Warhound ignoring Immortal's hardened shields... we have one (1) unit, as Protoss, to counter mechs, and that's Immortal. Was it that hard to realize it would be completely broken to have a terran mech ignoring the protoss antimech's only upper-hand ability? Does it take weeks or months of beta to figure out?
On September 10 2012 02:14 draemn wrote: As more beta replays come out for HotS, I'm starting to think part of the problem is that both terran and zerg got units "specifically" designed to help them versus protoss... But protoss didn't get a unit that's specifically designed to help them with either race... Oh, wait, we got that capital ship tempest thing right? It's supposed to deal with brood lords and siege tanks!!! Oh what was that? You say the tempest can't even do that... oh...
It kills them siege tanks, alright.
Then after the terran army has stood still for 5 minutes and lost all their tanks you're going to strike with your timing attack.
Yep yep, now if the tempest just had an ability that kept your opponents army from moving and prevented production...
I think the should just triple the DPS of the tempest, not give it splash and see how it does and nerf later if they need to.
On September 07 2012 16:19 Gben592 wrote: My biggest issue with the oracle is there its too damn easy to use for harass. A pro player using an oracle will basically have the same effect as a casual player using an oracle.... Blizz wants this to be an e-sport... for a game to be a sport people need to be able to improve!!!
Ermm. It dies to 1 well placed turret/spore. So you still have the babysit it a lil bit.
I just saw babyknight do some awesome stuff vs a marine warhound player with tempests and oracles, its definitely got room to be very useful, people just keep using them as though they are straight up combat units, babyknight used it the oracle to gain vision, and then wrecked a whole base (and killed the pack of vikings the terran was trying to build up on reaction) with tempests.
On September 10 2012 02:14 draemn wrote: As more beta replays come out for HotS, I'm starting to think part of the problem is that both terran and zerg got units "specifically" designed to help them versus protoss... But protoss didn't get a unit that's specifically designed to help them with either race... Oh, wait, we got that capital ship tempest thing right? It's supposed to deal with brood lords and siege tanks!!! Oh what was that? You say the tempest can't even do that... oh...
It kills them siege tanks, alright.
Then after the terran army has stood still for 5 minutes and lost all their tanks you're going to strike with your timing attack.
The idea is that the terran is going to have to either attack your army without tank support, or unsiege and go somewhere else. Tempest does that pretty well. But probably, warhounds are so strong that he actually CAN go and kill your army without tank support. Not the Tempest's fault.
On September 10 2012 02:14 draemn wrote: As more beta replays come out for HotS, I'm starting to think part of the problem is that both terran and zerg got units "specifically" designed to help them versus protoss... But protoss didn't get a unit that's specifically designed to help them with either race... Oh, wait, we got that capital ship tempest thing right? It's supposed to deal with brood lords and siege tanks!!! Oh what was that? You say the tempest can't even do that... oh...
It kills them siege tanks, alright.
Then after the terran army has stood still for 5 minutes and lost all their tanks you're going to strike with your timing attack.
The idea is that the terran is going to have to either attack your army without tank support, or unsiege and go somewhere else. Tempest does that pretty well. But probably, warhounds are so strong that he actually CAN go and kill your army without tank support. Not the Tempest's fault.
What if you, say, bring SCVs that out-repair the tempests(unless you oneshot them so you need to invest in 6 tempest..)
On September 10 2012 01:23 D4V3Z02 wrote: Protoss just becomes harder and thats good because It was the least mechanically demanding race, even Artosis said it. It was pretty much sitting only on 2/3 bases and attacking. Now you got chances to expand because you can pin your enemy at his base with your new oracle and even scout him with it.
Oh, bullshit.
Spamming marines and marauders is the least mechanically demanding race.
I owned a diamond Terran in WoL the other week with high templars. I asked him why he didn't produce a single ghost the entire match. He answered that he's not grandmaster and can't be expected to do all that complicated stuff like upgrading to tier 3 and using EMP.
That's Terran. You're Modern Warfare 2 kiddies turned SC2 players. Bread and butter stuff for gold league Toss players, like upgrading to tier 3 and using spells, is over the head of all but the best Terrans.
This has got to be the stupidest ever post I've read on TL.
You have no understanding of the game or that one randomer on the ladder doesn't speak for all of us. ---
I wouldn't say any of the races got a shortstick, a lot of the new units are OP and they will all be nerfed. Watch several nerfs hit the warhound before launch and rightfully so.
This is absolutely hilarious. It's like he thinks he is a Protoss in real life.
Stop being so depressed. It's just a beta. Protoss will be buffed.
It's not about buffing or nerfing shit. It pains me that people like you don't understand the concept of bad design where it's not about how much the race wins or looses but how much Protoss sucks as a race,it blows so fucking much right now to play it. Not because it's weak,not because it's OP,because it's not fun the way you have to play it and no I don't want to change my race,I want to play protoss. I was going back and forth with the thought about writing a blog/thread to try to create an initiative for protoss players so they could somehow show blizzard how much changes the race needs,but I just realized that I don't really care enough in the end of the day and don't have the strength to do something like that. Even if we started something and aggressively advocated changes from blizzard it wouldn't come any time soon if ever. I said this before and I'll say it again,if blizzard doesn't radically change the way protoss works in LotV,starcraft will die off soon because people won't be bothered anymore with the snooze fest that is protoss.
Not the right thread, but I hope they "buff" the select army icon. It's a small thing but a thing that I find annoying. I don't want the probe to be the icon when it doesn't select any of your probes because they aren't fighting units. If you go out of your way to show players how to attack move with units... it makes little sense to have the same icon for idle workers and to select your army, as obv that's a lot more confusing. An "EZ" graphic/icon would suffice for me.
On September 10 2012 02:14 draemn wrote: As more beta replays come out for HotS, I'm starting to think part of the problem is that both terran and zerg got units "specifically" designed to help them versus protoss... But protoss didn't get a unit that's specifically designed to help them with either race... Oh, wait, we got that capital ship tempest thing right? It's supposed to deal with brood lords and siege tanks!!! Oh what was that? You say the tempest can't even do that... oh...
It kills them siege tanks, alright.
Then after the terran army has stood still for 5 minutes and lost all their tanks you're going to strike with your timing attack.
The idea is that the terran is going to have to either attack your army without tank support, or unsiege and go somewhere else. Tempest does that pretty well. But probably, warhounds are so strong that he actually CAN go and kill your army without tank support. Not the Tempest's fault.
What if you, say, bring SCVs that out-repair the tempests(unless you oneshot them so you need to invest in 6 tempest..)
They do 30 damage per shot. Kill the SVCs and then kill the tanks.
You are forgeting that you still have zealots which is by far the strongest unit in the game in terms of mineral cost, apm needed to handle them. They are kinda like thors, you just have them and move them around with the rest of the army, just make sure that they are in the front to soak damage.
If the entire toss army was to have state of the art army like OP pretty much wants toss to have, then their would be no balance at all.
Toss is good enough as it is, you just feel left out right now because you have not had any new unit that kicks uber much ass.
By looking at games so far from demuslim and destiny toss is actually looking decent right now.
Tho i agree that tempest would need some tweaking.
On September 10 2012 06:25 Granter wrote: Abit to much complains from OP in this thread.
You are forgeting that you still have zealots which is by far the strongest unit in the game in terms of mineral cost, apm needed to handle them. They are kinda like thors, you just have them and move them around with the rest of the army, just make sure that they are in the front to soak damage.
If the entire toss army was to have state of the art army like OP pretty much wants toss to have, then their would be no balance at all.
Toss is good enough as it is, you just feel left out right now because you have not had any new unit that kicks uber much ass.
By looking at games so far from demuslim and destiny toss is actually looking decent right now.
Tho i agree that tempest would need some tweaking.
Thing is that you are probably talking about 3/3 chargelots, which are awesome. But the Zealot itself, early game, without the charge is really not so good unit.
Anyway as it was stated before all the talks are not about Protoss being OP or lose to other races. It's more about the fun playing the race and the feelings that you get by doing so. I'm a big fan of Toss, all their Khalai and Templar shit, so I play this race, and it was very neat in BW.
But now it has come to be a race that relies on gimmicks and lategame-deathball style of play, which is actually really boring. Sometimes i play as a terran and I really think that playing T bio is soooo cool, as It's very versalite and micro-intensive. But you can also play mech (especially now with the skillhound in play) and also use the deathball style.
Hovever Toss doesn't have the options to do so, the race is not flexible, only thing that pops in my mind is blink stalkers (which are fun, but still too fragile).
So the whole race is forced into 2 options: 1. Survive early game, get deathball - > amove 2. Do a gimmick allin.
This is how it is.
There are lots of complains about the WG tech and FF, so the P's are sayin - okay, we're fine, nerf that shit, but please make gateway units more useful, so we can split them and we won't have to GET AOE OR DIE!
TL; DR HOTS TOSS is boring. Changes suck. Gateay units suck. Nerf WG and FF, buff gateway. FOR THE MEMORY OF TASSADAR GIVE THE CARRIER BACK
the oracle is flawed i think. mothership core is fine, though it and the mothership might well get tweaked still, it's not very flashy but it looks useful.
i'm sold on the tempest now though. it requires micro to keep them in positions where they're safely behind the lines while still contributing to the main battle, and to get them in new positions where they'll be useful, while trying to not let them get isolated and overrun by strong anti air. its attack isn't as cool or interesting as the carrier but eh, so it goes.
On September 10 2012 06:25 Granter wrote: Abit to much complains from OP in this thread.
You are forgeting that you still have zealots which is by far the strongest unit in the game in terms of mineral cost, apm needed to handle them. They are kinda like thors, you just have them and move them around with the rest of the army, just make sure that they are in the front to soak damage.
If the entire toss army was to have state of the art army like OP pretty much wants toss to have, then their would be no balance at all.
Toss is good enough as it is, you just feel left out right now because you have not had any new unit that kicks uber much ass.
By looking at games so far from demuslim and destiny toss is actually looking decent right now.
Tho i agree that tempest would need some tweaking.
Interesting that you say this. Last I saw demuslim off race protoss and 'attempted' to make tempest work. His conclusion 'nope, they suck'.
I just don't get it, why does the oracle needs to have two abilities that basically serve the same purpose, and make the unit a glorified observer. I don't mind the oracle being squishy, it is a harass unit after all and the entombed ability is ok, it's an interesting concept. But for it's cost, I guess, it has to do more than just block minerals and reveal stuff. Either one of the earlier skills would've been better. With the cloaking field, at least, there would've been more possibilities for creative play, like cloaking a pylon, tech, or just a warp prism drop. And it's not like the oracle is a beefy unit, so cloaking an army during a major engagement would've been unwise, well vs an opponent who knows how to focus fire at least. Ya, the oracle is available kinda early, but it's not the reason to remove the cloaking field entirely from the game, make it an upgrade in a fleet beacon, or... somewhere... Mothership core is fine, I guess, but could use some tweaking.
Concerning Tempest, it would be nice if blizz added + damage vs air or vs massive, so it can be used more effectively against broodlors and colossus, mainly vs colossus, because out of all the matchups, pvp remains relatively the same.
EPT
! That said I liked the original idea of ferrying it from nexus to nexus, and using it purely as a defensive unit in that sense. It just seems too slow to be a real 'unit' so I liked that aspect of the original concept.![[image loading]](http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/4/3704/scivess_spin.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/HotS/Day_1/hotsd13.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0zPDP.png)
