[*]If you want Terran to go Factory against Protoss maybe you should not have nerfed Thors... If you want Terran to go mech then you should not have nerfed it into oblivion after it was used in a single match in a single big tournament.
This, right here. They've literally stated that the main reason they nerfed Thors is that they didn't like the way Mass Thors LOOKS. I'm not making that up. Now, if they're not going to change the way the Thor looks, and yet it's ONE of THREE factory units, and the only one with AA, how the hell can they expect anyone to ever learn how to mech vs protoss in WoL? It would be like, mass marauder looks bad- we'll just make them way easier to kill. Okay, now go bio!
The Thor is just a dumb fucking unit. It's designed so poorly they can't make it really fit. They're either overpowered or useless.
The only time the Thor was considered "overpowered" was following the series between ThorZaIN and MC in TSL3. Other than ThorZaIN's usage of Thors in TvP, I don't think it was used at all in a major tournament before it got nerfed. If you don't give a strategy like that to Korea and let them try to figure out how to beat it, how can you really say for a fact that it is OP? Look at Mutalisks. For a long time ZvP was dominated by them, but eventually Koreans started to figure ZvP out and there was no real balance change (lol Phoenix upgrade). So if Korea can do that to the Mutalisk and change the metagame (and frankly the Mutalisk had more results that proved it's "imbalance" or "OP-ness"), who says the Thor could not have found a place in the metagame too.
But if you want to talk about things that are designed so poorly that they can never really fit, I would love to talk about that: Warp Gates - either the units are too good or they're too poop. Because they build instantly and anywhere, you have to make units less strong, but in doing so, after the units are actually made with the Warp Gate, those units are distinctly worse. Void Rays - if the maps can abuse Void Ray openings, then they will dominate (Kulas, Blistering Sands, even Metalopolis), but right now they are basically never used because the maps do not have rocks in the right places/other ways to abuse early Voids. They also are a weird unit because they're high tech, but work best in small numbers where they can get charged. Talk about a stupid snow-bally unit.
Good thing that Blizzard has addressed how they plan on fixing those in HotS... Oh wait, nevermind, Blizzard is giving Protoss a 22 Range Flying monstrosity. You want to talk about a terrible unit design, well there you have it!
Way to pick up my one line and run off on a tangent that is completely irrelevant to what I said. I agree with you that terran mech is shit vs protoss, but thors 'un-nerfed' are not your answer. It's a shit, boring unit. Nothing you said contradicts that. The Mutalisk, on the other hand, is not a boring, shit unit.
The rest of your post I don't really care to comment on as it's not what I was discussing.
On July 10 2012 14:31 Sroobz wrote: It literally looks like Blizzard has no idea about high level sc2. Literally
@ 1:30 -> This supports your statement. When Browder is asked about the situation where a mothership comes into play late game ZvP and the game is decided by either protoss landing a vortex or zerg landing a neural parasite, he seems like he has no idea that this ever happens.
On another note, I honestly feel like TvT plays out the best of all matchups. Protoss seems like the race is designed to do timing based all ins or turtle until max supply. Zerg has many options in every matchup, but most zerg play seems to be based around getting such an econ advantage or hive tech and rolling over the opponent with that advantage. TvP and TvZ basically boils down to, terran must constantly do damage in predictable ways all game long or get mauled by AOE and long range dmg in the late game.
The balance they are attempting to achieve is 50% win rates, and they appear to pay little attention to how the match ups actually play out. I really hope they make some serious changes in how they approach "balance" in the expansions. If they continue in their current direction they are leaving the door wide open for another RTS to dethrone Starcraft.
in the video i really dont get the fact that he thinks zerg and protoss are unable to break siege lines "no matter how much i have" ling bane muta breaks marine tank medivacs lines a ton + for protoss im sure no one thinks the immortal is bad against tank.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
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I think I expanded on this in another bullet point. Basically sentries are really gas intensive, and losing them during an early game push is pretty painful, especially when you lose them during a failed bunker bust or sentry immortal timing push.
In the afternoon of Friday, June 8th, we caught up with Dustin Browder, StarCraft 2's lead designer.
This interview was done a month ago and it only now got posted on TL?
Slasher waited weeks before he posted his interviews with David Kim.
Excuse me but whichever race invests in a push which fails should be behind. It's the same with T, at least after the multiple nerfs, you push with 1-2 medivacs and MM or pure MM and if you dont do extra damage (not just trade) you are way behind (since the defender should have better economy).
Okay, guys, plain and simple, Blizzard doesn't know a thing about TvT, they don't really know how Zerg works and they want to change the midgame-offensive race to all-around offensive race. Typical Blizzard.
To all those of us who actually like to play Terran, we either need to become godlike and win games regardless of balance changes or we need to change our race.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
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zealots, sentries and stalkers suck against bio, i dont understand the ???????????????????????????????
because zealot stalker does pretty well in the early game if the terran wants to go into the macro game (i.e. 1rax fe) or rather... without marauders or upgrades (stim/cs) in the early game.
- If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
cutting things is always retarded.
including cutting your wrist.
- The mothership core will allow protoss to pressure in the early game, without the risk of losing their high gas cost sentries.
without _any risk_ is stupid there should be some sort of risk for things you do
Do you even play this game? Against 2 bunkers the terran can never die against a 4 gate / 3 gate with repair...
Do you play this game? Last time i played 2 bunkers absolutely die to any serious P push Hint: you have to FF the bunkers so that scvs cannot repair.
Angry Terran don't get it. It will be a new game with dozens of balance patches during and after the beta. I hope the nydus worm will add something new to the game, not a improved creep tumor.
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
Protoss
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
Terran
- Want to give terran control over the map, outside of their army, or "deathball" as everyone likes to call it.
These points are so laughable and wrong, it's not even funny anymore. It's a shame the game's own creators and testers don't understand shit about the game...
On July 10 2012 16:37 HubertFelix wrote: Angry Terran don't get it. It will be a new game with dozens of balance patches during and after the beta. I hope the nydus worm will add something new to the game, not a improved creep tumor.
I don't think many people worry about the balance. I think many people worry about the design concepts and how much fun it will be to play terran.
On July 10 2012 16:37 HubertFelix wrote: Angry Terran don't get it. It will be a new game with dozens of balance patches during and after the beta. I hope the nydus worm will add something new to the game, not a improved creep tumor.
really, the only thing i'm angry about is that they feel like messing up TvT up
it's like the marauder ultimately failed to be the unit to easymode break tank lines so they feel like they need to come up with an even better marauder
currently TvT is the only MU that plays like a proper starcraft match, hopefully during beta someone way better at the game than i am can explain exactly why the current implementation of warhound is really bad
On July 10 2012 16:37 HubertFelix wrote: Angry Terran don't get it. It will be a new game with dozens of balance patches during and after the beta. I hope the nydus worm will add something new to the game, not a improved creep tumor.
I don't think many people worry about the balance. I think many people worry about the design concepts and how much fun it will be to play terran.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
I take it DB does not watch SC2 with this comment. e.g. 12 min roach ling max usually does the job. T&P crying everywhere in mid game. Get protoss late and they have a good shot. Terran? well thats sad story from 12 min on.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
Compatred to what? Protoss is 100x capable in early game than terran. Pylon blocks. Cannon rushes. 4 Zealot pressure. SG pressure. all without being an in all to slow down Zerg. Not to mention all the powerful 2 base all ins. Basically this Mr Browder is clueless.
Is that 1v1 maps or what? I guess if you include the casual maps (the ones not for ladder... for example all the melee maps that are bad and were there from the beginning of WoL like Terminus and Burial Grounds) then 20 is believable. If it's 20 ladder worthy maps then wow, awesome.
I'm guessing that probably includes 2v2 3v3 and 4v4 too though...? They say they're focusing on 4 player maps, is that referring to 1v1? Is it a separate statement than the "20 maps" one?
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
Protoss
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
Terran
- Want to give terran control over the map, outside of their army, or "deathball" as everyone likes to call it.
These points are so laughable and wrong, it's not even funny anymore. It's a shame the game's own creators and testers don't understand shit about the game...
How many possibilities for early aggression do you see for a protoss that are not all ins. Early all ins are boring to watch, but pressure is really cool. PvZ has become a matchup where nobody attacks for about 8 minutes, this has diminished the viewer experience for me, I always just tune in 5 minuts after the game has started. About zergs pushing their advantage, this seems to concern the cases where a protoss or terran all-in failed. I think it is true that zerg really has a tool to finish the game with overlord speed and drop. Breaking the front can be hard, but most pros leave when the game is clearly lost and do not defend their two bases forever when they are 100 supply behind.
As a spectator I want to see games with early pressure that is not game deciding, but only gives an advantage to the side who handles it better (reaper openings, 1 rax bunker pressure these openings are somewhat rare in the meta game, but I think they are cool to watch). Once the advantage has accumulated to an amount where no comeback is possible I want the game to end fast.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
I take it DB does not watch SC2 with this comment. e.g. 12 min roach ling max usually does the job. T&P crying everywhere in mid game. Get protoss late and they have a good shot. Terran? well thats sad story from 12 min on.
I usually don't see 12 min roach ling max killing the protoss directly, maybe this happened earlier. When the zerg wins this mostly seems to be the case because he denies the protoss a third for long enough. Not beacause he breaks the wall at the natural.
without _any risk_ is stupid there should be some sort of risk for things you do
i think the risk is that it won't have energy to be converted to cannon
And also a missed opportunity is a risk. If you spent the energy for a no damage attack, then it will take a while until you can start another one, while the opponent can improve it's eco.
EPT
