- Want to give terran control over the map, outside of their army, or "deathball" as everyone likes to call it.
- Still having problems finding the right cost and balance for the unit.
- If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
Can someone please tell Dustin that no one calls the marine army "the deathball". That term is mostly used for the protoss army of gateway+robotics units. Terrans have a "bio ball" or MMM.
That was the funniest part of the MLG interview that they gave because no one knew what he was talking about. The reason they called the protoss ball a "deathball" and the reason they are starting to call broodlord/infestor a "deathball" is that if you go for a strait up fight you get killed by that ball. MMM does not fight those armies like that, it uses its mobility to strike away from the main force and avoid a direct engagement until force is whittled down properly.
this exactly rofl
its hilarious how dustin WATCHES this game and still doesnt understand it... rofl... at mlg they were talking about all the changes they were doing to "take units out of the terran deathball" rofl............... and the audience didnt know wtf he was talking about
zerg has a deathball protoss has a deathball
they are called deathballs because if you ever try to fight it head on, you will experience your death
terran has an army, that needs to be everywhere around the map at all times doing what it can where it can because if it tries to fight the enemy deathball it loses
terran does not have a deathball rofl .............. hilarious that these guys are head of sc2 balance
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
It's a unit which builds units!?!?! That's unique!
Oh well guys, you heard it from the man's mouth himself, Blizzard designers aren't able to creatively think outside the box. Ugh, my brain.
The whole "we should keep the carrier" thread has tens of good ideas, but they're buried in the debate that Browder himself seems to only be able to see. If it was just "It's Iconic" vs "It's a bad unit" then I'd be on the "its a bad unit" side. But I mean, come on look at it as a flying floating mini-stargate and wham! That's one hell of an exciting unit.
But hey, guess it's hard to a-move and doesn't work well in it's current form. Better not use it.
How was "That's unique" any different for "cool and iconic". You just showed what Dustin Browder means.
Because within the unique ability there's a lot to be explored from a design perspective, and that's exciting and can make for interesting abilities which can make for an interesting game.
The lurker is iconic, but has similar functionality to burrowed banelings, which is why they were removed I believe (despite some community dislike).
And when I say unique units, they aren't just about art design (icon) but are indeed about game/unit design (unique). If DBrowder doesn't want 'cool' units in his game I don't know if he's making a game or a spreadsheet. Anyone making a game wants to make it cool, else we'd all be making stock analysis programs for major banks.
Oh but I guess it's harder to balance than a-move units where we only need to modify numbers like range =S
the lurker wasnt similar functionality to burrowed banelings... they were space control units like tanks.... like if you had lurkers on top of a ramp it'll be hard as hell to bust with ground units. how many burrowed banelings would you need to accomplish the same effect?
The most interesting question now is whether they'll bring some limitation to the warpgate system. Because it's great that they're allowing Protoss players to attack without commiting as much, and that they get better defensive options, but if everything else stays the same the Risk/Reward is going to favour Protoss ridiculously.
Recently David Kim rightly said that if you let people just mass an army and a-move, then that's what people will do because that's the easiest and safest way to win. That to me is the issue with Protoss, it's not that Stargate needs a buff (although I'm happy with it too), it's that the rest is too strong. If the last build they showed ends up being the real thing, I predict Protoss players will experiment with Stargates for about a month and then it'll be back to the same gateway and robo crap.
im hoping for absolutely no new units. nothing new. i play protoss i dont like anything on there. stick to buffing and nerfing until you find that special place
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
It's a unit which builds units!?!?! That's unique!
Oh well guys, you heard it from the man's mouth himself, Blizzard designers aren't able to creatively think outside the box. Ugh, my brain.
The whole "we should keep the carrier" thread has tens of good ideas, but they're buried in the debate that Browder himself seems to only be able to see. If it was just "It's Iconic" vs "It's a bad unit" then I'd be on the "its a bad unit" side. But I mean, come on look at it as a flying floating mini-stargate and wham! That's one hell of an exciting unit.
But hey, guess it's hard to a-move and doesn't work well in it's current form. Better not use it.
How was "That's unique" any different for "cool and iconic". You just showed what Dustin Browder means.
Because within the unique ability there's a lot to be explored from a design perspective, and that's exciting and can make for interesting abilities which can make for an interesting game.
The lurker is iconic, but has similar functionality to burrowed banelings, which is why they were removed I believe (despite some community dislike).
And when I say unique units, they aren't just about art design (icon) but are indeed about game/unit design (unique). If DBrowder doesn't want 'cool' units in his game I don't know if he's making a game or a spreadsheet. Anyone making a game wants to make it cool, else we'd all be making stock analysis programs for major banks.
Oh but I guess it's harder to balance than a-move units where we only need to modify numbers like range =S
the lurker wasnt similar functionality to burrowed banelings... they were space control units like tanks.... like if you had lurkers on top of a ramp it'll be hard as hell to bust with ground units. how many burrowed banelings would you need to accomplish the same effect?
Too many, I know. Not saying it was a great decision, but I do believe those were the words from Blizzard regarding the Lurkers removal right? I can't find the source, but I do remember people discussing this once upon a time.
"One is a nydus worm that spews creep in a direction, quite a distance right now so you can create a creep highway and go wherever you want to go"
That´s a GREAT idea, not that currently Terrans have trouble denying creepspread in the current meta. Sure the meta will shift, but i can see a meta in HOTS where creepdspread is still a huge issue.
On July 10 2012 12:15 Chaggi wrote: If widow mines are cut, what do Terrans have to look forward to?
[...] - reaper upgrade [...] - terran has more concepts/units/upgrades than the other races already, since their 'expansion' was first and the per race expansions are a really gross idea
Wow, if we are expected to look forward to the reaper upgrade then I can really understand the depressed and whining terrans. Right now Reapers are at least fun in teammatches (3v3 and up) to annihilate entire bases, but without the grenades they aren't even good for that anymore. The reaper regeneration is either overpowered in the early game or completely underwhelming. That's simply because of the design of the reaper as a low hp high dps fast unit. And my bet on the upgrade is that it will be completely underwhelming. The new reaper upgrade is not a new feature, its a hidden nerf because Blizzard was pissed at low level player bases getting owned in 4v4 by reapers from the first day of the release onwards, so now they found a way to take away the reaper grenades. Good job Blizzard. Maybe just get rid of the whole unit instead because its horrible from a design perspective as it overlaps with like 3 other terran units that have the only purpose of harassing workers and can't do anything else.
Also I don't think they designed the multiplayer units around the fact that terran had the first singleplayer campaign. It just turned out to be that way. Now they are bringing the races a little bit closer in that regard and it is a good thing, I like the Battle Hellion and partly the Warhound (I think the antimechanical is pretty stupid design, but it is good that its a solid army unit and not a low hp gimmicky harass shit unit). But they should have really got rid of units like the reaper and the thor, which are impossible to balance. The thor isn't even fun to use. It is just awful in every regard. And I thought they know, because they wanted to get rid of it. But somehow it got back in, although no one likes to use it. Great.
On July 10 2012 14:31 Sroobz wrote: It literally looks like Blizzard has no idea about high level sc2. Literally
@ 1:30 -> This supports your statement. When Browder is asked about the situation where a mothership comes into play late game ZvP and the game is decided by either protoss landing a vortex or zerg landing a neural parasite, he seems like he has no idea that this ever happens.
On another note, I honestly feel like TvT plays out the best of all matchups. Protoss seems like the race is designed to do timing based all ins or turtle until max supply. Zerg has many options in every matchup, but most zerg play seems to be based around getting such an econ advantage or hive tech and rolling over the opponent with that advantage. TvP and TvZ basically boils down to, terran must constantly do damage in predictable ways all game long or get mauled by AOE and long range dmg in the late game.
The balance they are attempting to achieve is 50% win rates, and they appear to pay little attention to how the match ups actually play out. I really hope they make some serious changes in how they approach "balance" in the expansions. If they continue in their current direction they are leaving the door wide open for another RTS to dethrone Starcraft.
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
It's a unit which builds units!?!?! That's unique!
Oh well guys, you heard it from the man's mouth himself, Blizzard designers aren't able to creatively think outside the box. Ugh, my brain.
The whole "we should keep the carrier" thread has tens of good ideas, but they're buried in the debate that Browder himself seems to only be able to see. If it was just "It's Iconic" vs "It's a bad unit" then I'd be on the "its a bad unit" side. But I mean, come on look at it as a flying floating mini-stargate and wham! That's one hell of an exciting unit.
But hey, guess it's hard to a-move and doesn't work well in it's current form. Better not use it.
How was "That's unique" any different for "cool and iconic". You just showed what Dustin Browder means.
Because within the unique ability there's a lot to be explored from a design perspective, and that's exciting and can make for interesting abilities which can make for an interesting game.
The lurker is iconic, but has similar functionality to burrowed banelings, which is why they were removed I believe (despite some community dislike).
And when I say unique units, they aren't just about art design (icon) but are indeed about game/unit design (unique). If DBrowder doesn't want 'cool' units in his game I don't know if he's making a game or a spreadsheet. Anyone making a game wants to make it cool, else we'd all be making stock analysis programs for major banks.
Oh but I guess it's harder to balance than a-move units where we only need to modify numbers like range =S
the lurker wasnt similar functionality to burrowed banelings... they were space control units like tanks.... like if you had lurkers on top of a ramp it'll be hard as hell to bust with ground units. how many burrowed banelings would you need to accomplish the same effect?
Too many, I know. Not saying it was a great decision, but I do believe those were the words from Blizzard regarding the Lurkers removal right? I can't find the source, but I do remember people discussing this once upon a time.
well blizz tends to spew a ton of rubbish. "terran deathball" case in point.
what they want to do with terran is very ambitious. Mech is already somewhat viable in the other matchups so straight up buffing is out of the question, and mech/bio combinations might be real strong all of the sudden. Good luck blizzard
On July 10 2012 15:47 TheAwesomeAll wrote: what they want to do with terran is very ambitious. Mech is already somewhat viable in the other matchups so straight up buffing is out of the question, and mech/bio combinations might be real strong all of the sudden. Good luck blizzard
Don't think about balance as much as concept. Numbers can be changed much more easily than concepts can. You can straight up buff stuff in an expansion without problem so long as other stuff that's added balances it out. The question is if both bio AND mech is viable, would it make for a better game?
To be honest I feel more confident in what the tempest is turning into. I know it's easy to go crazy over 22 range and how highly abusable it is, but dustin's analytical explanation on it makes me feel like it will be a decently good unit, in that "well my command center is getting attacked, i have 30 seconds to a minute to figure out what to do here" as opposed to a herd of tanks and say in 4 seconds "oh snap i gotta get out naaaooowwwww".
The tempest does make you think. You think "okay, I have 25 seconds to deal with this tempest's harassment... do I just go kill it? Or is he waiting for me to come out in the open?"
On July 10 2012 15:47 TheAwesomeAll wrote: Mech is already somewhat viable in the other matchups so straight up buffing is out of the question, and mech/bio combinations might be real strong all of the sudden. Good luck blizzard
In what matchups is mech somewhat viable?
All of them, but only at sub-pro levels. MechvZ is almost a thing at pro levels, but typically gets rolled fairly easily at that level.
MechvP has some good guides here on Team Liquid, but contributors are largely no higher than the masters level, so viability of high masters+ level Protoss players is somewhat undetermined. If I do recall faintly ST_Hack went mech against CreatorPrime in TSL4 qualifier finals? I haven't caught the game yet and he did lose, but mech isn't totally unviable against Protoss.
Overall it's just a very different way of playing, and almost overly passive compared to the aggressive bio, biomech, drop and harass play that terrans are good at. And if the opponent chooses mobility over deathball then mech armies are easy to outmanouvre short of split map super lategame.
On July 10 2012 15:47 TheAwesomeAll wrote: Mech is already somewhat viable in the other matchups so straight up buffing is out of the question, and mech/bio combinations might be real strong all of the sudden. Good luck blizzard
In what matchups is mech somewhat viable?
TvT and TvZ. It's...viable ish. Yeah, it's fallen way out of favor since the blue flame nerf, but I would say that mech is still pretty strong in those MUs.
What better reason to have something in a game other than it being "cool and iconic"? That kind of thing makes the game more fun. Now work on making the carrier competitively useful BECAUSE it's so cool and iconic.
On July 10 2012 16:04 Rad wrote: What better reason to have something in a game other than it being "cool and iconic"? That kind of thing makes the game more fun. Now work on making the carrier competitively useful BECAUSE it's so cool and iconic.
I thought the same.
They say they try to come up with cool units, and now they already have one that a lot of people actually think it's cool and they want to remove it. Nice reasoning there Dustin!
Zerg being the best race in the game currently will became literally unbeatable late game in HOTS. Also to note if they decide they will end their games even in mid-game.
Ahhh , how sweet!
Terrans being worried about the widow mine but we all know it will most certainly get through. That scary 1a mech army with moveable mines is coming!
Protoss ... Jesus don't even get me started
Protoss gets an air ship which will be completely fucking useless in straight fights. And that is the last thing Protoss needs in late game. We need a fucking air ship that is good in straight fights,that can win us against the fucking unbeatable late game zerg composition. The Tempest will contribute fuck all in late game.
"Hey but the Tempest is strategic artillery unit" .. oh yeah? Tell me please, how are you gonna chip at one of the zerg 7 bases in late game and how he is not just gonna roll over to you and completely dismantle you with his fucking imbalanced infestor/broodlord/buffed ultralisk/buffed hydralisk/viper combo. I seriously doubt that the Tempest will contribute with anything against those units in order for you to defend.
Hey maybe we are gonna use them in PvT! We are gonna chip on the bases of terran with it! Doesn't matter that they can mass repair their buildings, medivacs can heal bio and last but not least the biffy mech units which can also be mass repaired!
I mean how fucking good is that?
Probably they will have a use in PvP - If you want to lose a game , start massing Tempest. That way you will have so much useless units tighed in supplay that the other player will simply overrun you.
So great!
Hey mass recall is neat because we can bail out if things fuck up! Not bad ,not bad. The oracle may be useful but as time passes we will see how he is gonna blend out when the other races learn to deal with it.
There is one main fucking problem with Protoss and I just don't see anyone adressing it.
Zerg players get the swarm host , the viper aka infestor #2 , buffed hydralisks , buffed ultralisk.
Terran players get buffed reapers , battle hellions , warhounds which look terrifyingly good in straight battles , widow mines , buffed bc's.
Protoss players gets a harassing air caster , a retreat spell in the face of the recall and a useless late game junk unit with the Tempest.
So where is that person on planet Earth that will explain to me how in the blue hell is Protoss supposed to keep with the firepower of the other 2 races? We don't get any new units that are good at attacking or buffed old ones. Questionable air caster that may become useless as time progresses and a retreat fucking spell for the cost of a ton of chronoboost. The Tempest is a fucking joke.
So Protoss is still gonna be the worst fucking race in HOTS also? This is fucking bullshit.
EPT
