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On April 27 2023 23:07 DropBear wrote:
Guardiola won 2 rigged Champions Leagues at Barcelona, and who knows how legit his league titles were after the recent revelations. Tiki-taka was the most insipidly boring football has ever been.
He inherited a title winning team at Bayern, gutted his main rival and achieved the bare minimum for that club. He consistently failed in the Champions League against other top sides and other top managers.
He inherited an illegally assembled recent title winner at Man City, had a terrible first season then broke FFP to build a new one. He consistently failed in the Champions League against other top sides and other top managers. By now he had a reputation for over-thinking knockout ties and bottling them.
Guardiola has always had greater resources than all his domestic rivals and having more money and depth than everyone else your entire career does not make you a great tactician. He's not been the best tactician at any of the clubs he has ever been at, let alone of all time.
He didn't have greater resources at Barca than the domestic rival (Real) and how was the 2011 UCL rigged?
Before he took over Barca they weren't great (I think they came 4th in the league) and he turned them into the best team in the world.
City was pretty good before he took over but he also took them to the next level and is likely to win his 5th league title in 6 years.
The only one where I agree that other managers could've probably done the same is Bayern.
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Norway28792 Posts
Honestly I disliked watching that Barca team but they're arguably the most dominant team I've ever seen. This City team is one of the only ones to come close. That was part of why I didn't like watching them - the games were boring, because it felt like the winner was a given. The other part was the whole concept of defending while having possession. That still rubs me the wrong way.
City isn't the only team with nearly unlimited resources, but they are currently the only team with Guardiola. I don't know how he would do as manager for a mid-tier team, one where he's more limited in terms of player ability, it could well be that other managers can do more with less. But no other manager does the same if given the same time and resources, at least none have proven themselves to do so. I place more emphasis on the league than the CL tbh, 38 games is more meaningful than a cup-format knockout game is. I'm also not necessarily thinking that Guardiola is the best at making plans for a single match or against a single opponent (although he's certainly no slouch, and this City is far more adaptable than the Barcelona team was), but he is the best at developing a team to be exceptional over time.
Part of why City has such good squad depth is that Guardiola excels at making his players work in several different positions, anyway.
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One less injury or 100k more budget and liverpool would have won 3/5 titles and city only 2/5. And this is not just some stupid what if scenario, its true. 1-2 points difference is not being better, its just more luck, ressources, whatever you want to say. Klopp has alsobeen in 3CL finals having won 1.
So how can anyone say how great pep is and disregard that there is a better manager in the same league? Klopp and liverpool started way below city and have had way less ressources and achieved almost equal almost better success than pep did.
When pep went to bayern people expected league and cl titles. Same here at city. Not because he is pep but because of the ressources hes been given.
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On April 28 2023 13:53 sharkie wrote:
One less injury or 100k more budget and liverpool would have won 3/5 titles and city only 2/5. And this is not just some stupid what if scenario, its true. 1-2 points difference is not being better, its just more luck, ressources, whatever you want to say. Klopp has alsobeen in 3CL finals having won 1.
Sounds like a stupid what if scenario to me.
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Norway28792 Posts
Hey, Klopp is fantastic too. I dunno what difference 100k to the budget would've made though.
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On April 28 2023 15:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Hey, Klopp is fantastic too. I dunno what difference 100k to the budget would've made though.
one player that could have replaced injury to their vital players (usually midfield)
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city pipped liverpool to the title twice on a very close point margin, and they are about to it again to arsenal after being behind on the table for 90% of the season. you cant write that off to luck every time.
also i want to point out that when i made my comment earlier, i deliberately used the word tactician rather than manager, because they are different things and i do not think pep is the best manager. he is absolutely the best tactical coach; his teams at peak performance have displayed the best football the world has ever seen. the argument about unlimited resources is moot because there are many managers across the world that have managed the same clubs as pep and have had access to just as many resources, but have not been able to replicate performance levels that pep's teams have.
that said, when it comes to management (my vague and general definition being; how successful one is in their capacity as "head coach/manager") then saf is historically the goat and there are plenty of current "managers" that compete with pep on equal footing.
coach/manager etc. are terms used so interchangeably because previously positions like director of football didnt really exist. saf was effectively head coach + director of football and he dominated for decades on the pitch and created a club pretty much too big to fail off the pitch. thats unparalleled and will never be repeated again by any one individual; therefore making him a greater "manager" than pep in my eyes. that said, as far as first team coaching goes, theres no debate that the best pep sides are the closest thing to a real life execution of an unbeatable theorycrafted football team. if you give pep the tools he needs he extracts the highest possible performance from that set of players compared to any other coach on the planet.
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What makes Pep a better tactician than Klopp? Klopps teams are a thing of beauty and have defeated Pep's teams many times. Also players in Klopps teams then perform better than they should (every player who left Liverpool has become worse)
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Jupp Heynckes is the goat manager. Comes in, gets treble, leaves. Pep came after him and did not get the treble.
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On April 28 2023 16:51 sharkie wrote:
What makes Pep a better tactician than Klopp? Klopps teams are a thing of beauty and have defeated Pep's teams many times. Also players in Klopps teams then perform better than they should (every player who left Liverpool has become worse)
well for starters peps influence on modern football cannot be underestimated. all "good" teams aspire to play in a certain way and those styles are all derived out of possession based football that pep utilised. you could argue that its actually cruyff's influence, but the fact is pep is the one who took an idea and showed how brilliant it is in practice first.
when peps teams play at their best theyre not only hard to defeat, theyre marvelous to watch. some say tiki taka is boring to watch, but i disagree. i thought the fact that a team could take such a simple concept and execute it so perfectly that it makes the other team completely flaccid and make the game look one sided is absolutely brilliant. arguably the best ever epl side was the 08 utd team and peps barca ran circles around us (not in 08 but the other years). peps understanding of positional play and possession is unreal.
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On April 28 2023 20:44 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2023 16:51 sharkie wrote:
What makes Pep a better tactician than Klopp? Klopps teams are a thing of beauty and have defeated Pep's teams many times. Also players in Klopps teams then perform better than they should (every player who left Liverpool has become worse) well for starters peps influence on modern football cannot be underestimated. all "good" teams aspire to play in a certain way and those styles are all derived out of possession based football that pep utilised. you could argue that its actually cruyff's influence, but the fact is pep is the one who took an idea and showed how brilliant it is in practice first. when peps teams play at their best theyre not only hard to defeat, theyre marvelous to watch. some say tiki taka is boring to watch, but i disagree. i thought the fact that a team could take such a simple concept and execute it so perfectly that it makes the other team completely flaccid and make the game look one sided is absolutely brilliant. arguably the best ever epl side was the 08 utd team and peps barca ran circles around us (not in 08 but the other years). peps understanding of positional play and possession is unreal.
I agree with your conclusion but you're not giving Cruijff enough credit. Cruijff was instrumental in developing the football style of the Ajax team in the 70s that won the europa cup 1 three times and the Dutch national team that got into the world cup final twice in the 74 and 78. That said, Guardiola perfected it as coach with that Barca team and is able to implement it at every team he coaches which is impressive.
On April 28 2023 13:53 sharkie wrote:
One less injury or 100k more budget and liverpool would have won 3/5 titles and city only 2/5. And this is not just some stupid what if scenario, its true. 1-2 points difference is not being better, its just more luck, ressources, whatever you want to say. Klopp has alsobeen in 3CL finals having won 1.
So how can anyone say how great pep is and disregard that there is a better manager in the same league? Klopp and liverpool started way below city and have had way less ressources and achieved almost equal almost better success than pep did.
When pep went to bayern people expected league and cl titles. Same here at city. Not because he is pep but because of the ressources hes been given.
Determining the best coach is always a bit subjective and it might very well be Klopp but you're seriously underselling Guardiola. He was instrumental in building that insane Barca team. He was the one who selected players like Pique and Busquets and made Xavi perform so well that he is now considered one of the best midfielders in the world. Xavi was not considered that special under Rijkaard. In addition, the core of that team won the euros twice and the world cup with Spain. At Bayern he did not win the champions league but also did not perform bad at all by winning the league and three CL semi finals. Finally, at City he has already won 4 league titles and will win one again this year. The CL results are not as good as at the other teams but City was much worse in the CL before he came.
And in any discussion about the best modern coach you cannot leave out Mourinho and Ancelotti. Mourinho's CL win with Porto and Inter were very impressive and he is probably the only one who could compete with Guardiola's Barca with Real Madrid. Ancelotti has won four champions leagues and is (I think) the only coach winning the league in 4 of the 5 big leagues.
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On April 28 2023 22:04 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2023 20:44 evilfatsh1t wrote:On April 28 2023 16:51 sharkie wrote:
What makes Pep a better tactician than Klopp? Klopps teams are a thing of beauty and have defeated Pep's teams many times. Also players in Klopps teams then perform better than they should (every player who left Liverpool has become worse) well for starters peps influence on modern football cannot be underestimated. all "good" teams aspire to play in a certain way and those styles are all derived out of possession based football that pep utilised. you could argue that its actually cruyff's influence, but the fact is pep is the one who took an idea and showed how brilliant it is in practice first. when peps teams play at their best theyre not only hard to defeat, theyre marvelous to watch. some say tiki taka is boring to watch, but i disagree. i thought the fact that a team could take such a simple concept and execute it so perfectly that it makes the other team completely flaccid and make the game look one sided is absolutely brilliant. arguably the best ever epl side was the 08 utd team and peps barca ran circles around us (not in 08 but the other years). peps understanding of positional play and possession is unreal. I agree with your conclusion but you're not giving Cruijff enough credit. Cruijff was instrumental in developing the football style of the Ajax team in the 70s that won the europa cup 1 three times and the Dutch national team that got into the world cup final twice in the 74 and 78. That said, Guardiola perfected it as coach with that Barca team and is able to implement it at every team he coaches which is impressive. Show nested quote +On April 28 2023 13:53 sharkie wrote:
One less injury or 100k more budget and liverpool would have won 3/5 titles and city only 2/5. And this is not just some stupid what if scenario, its true. 1-2 points difference is not being better, its just more luck, ressources, whatever you want to say. Klopp has alsobeen in 3CL finals having won 1.
So how can anyone say how great pep is and disregard that there is a better manager in the same league? Klopp and liverpool started way below city and have had way less ressources and achieved almost equal almost better success than pep did.
When pep went to bayern people expected league and cl titles. Same here at city. Not because he is pep but because of the ressources hes been given.
Determining the best coach is always a bit subjective and it might very well be Klopp but you're seriously underselling Guardiola. He was instrumental in building that insane Barca team. He was the one who selected players like Pique and Busquets and made Xavi perform so well that he is now considered one of the best midfielders in the world. Xavi was not considered that special under Rijkaard. In addition, the core of that team won the euros twice and the world cup with Spain. At Bayern he did not win the champions league but also did not perform bad at all by winning the league and three CL semi finals. Finally, at City he has already won 4 league titles and will win one again this year. The CL results are not as good as at the other teams but City was much worse in the CL before he came. And in any discussion about the best modern coach you cannot leave out Mourinho and Ancelotti. Mourinho's CL win with Porto and Inter were very impressive and he is probably the only one who could compete with Guardiola's Barca with Real Madrid. Ancelotti has won four champions leagues and is (I think) the only coach winning the league in 4 of the 5 big leagues.
Just to comment on the Mourinho part he is the opposite of longevity in that regard. He started amazing with Porto and chelsea, Porto played beautiful and effective football (yes i recall the utd games in CL that werent great) and in Madrid he was giving barça the fight.
But inter changed him and while the results were there, he turned into the park the bus and scared to lose more than willing to win kind of coach.
But i agree with your post it was just my view on mourinho evolution (i didnt really follow tottenham or roma btw)
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Ancelotti is so underrated imo. Sure he wont win LaLiga this year but his achievements are still crazy. For me he is a better coach than Pep. Kinda have to agree with sharkie (which is scary in itself) that Guardiolas results would have been worse if there was no big arab money printing machine to get every player you could possibly buy.
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Norway28792 Posts
Obviously they'd be worse without that money, but PSG, Chelsea, United are all teams that have at various times spent ridiculous money without ever being close to the quality of Guardiolas City or Barcelona. Tbh I'm not really saying that Guardiola is the goat, (nils arne eggen 4ever), because he has never done anything amazing with a mediocre squad, but Guardiola is basically the man behind the two best teams of modern football. Ancelotti might be a bit overlooked in these discussions but to me, I weigh league performance over tournament performance, because there is less luck involved.
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Id argue klopps liverpool (starting 11) is a better team than peps city.
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On April 29 2023 06:05 sharkie wrote:
Id argue klopps liverpool (starting 11) is a better team than peps city.
That bench is what makes the difference I agree. You should not be having a striker who just scored 4 goals in the world cup on the bench. Haaland being taught hold up play was deadly enough but when he unlocked his power level by taking his hair down it got out of hand.
Peps recent 4 CB backline is a very interesting wrinkle. only city would be able to afford 4 CBs but you've got to think they'll be in front of the race for gvardiol that's the way forward for them.
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On April 29 2023 01:31 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Obviously they'd be worse without that money, but PSG, Chelsea, United are all teams that have at various times spent ridiculous money without ever being close to the quality of Guardiolas City or Barcelona. Tbh I'm not really saying that Guardiola is the goat, (nils arne eggen 4ever), because he has never done anything amazing with a mediocre squad, but Guardiola is basically the man behind the two best teams of modern football. Ancelotti might be a bit overlooked in these discussions but to me, I weigh league performance over tournament performance, because there is less luck involved.
Both those teams are tainted.
Achieving more with less requires tactical superiority. Achieving more with more is just par. I could coach de Bruyne and Haaland to titles and so could any of you.
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If Mourinho does not dress up as Caesar this this whole thing is a waste.
The #ASRoma received the green light to play against Milan with SPQR written on the shirt.
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/mA1J0hM.jpg)
Atlético de Madrid was promoted to LaLiga in 2002. Since then:🤯 — In the next 9 seasons, they finished in place: 11, 7, 11, 10, 7, 4, 4, 9, 7. — Diego Simeone joined in 2011/12 and they have finished: 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 3rd. Simeone deserves much more respect! THE BEST PAID DT IN THE WORLD 🇦🇷🔥🙌🏼 Happy Birthday! Cholo
And champions league
Finales, semi finals, etc
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He's a Dark Templar?
Although I don't like his playstyle or his antics, can't argue the facts on this one. He's done extremely well.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/elq3f0Z.png)
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EPT
