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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On March 18 2016 21:52 smr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2016 21:42 Pandemona wrote:On March 18 2016 21:36 smr wrote:On March 18 2016 21:33 Pandemona wrote:
One thing i will say is that game is going to be watched the most in Europa League will probably dwarf the eventually europa league final to in terms of viewing numbers. However it wont get near champions league numbers come on now xd Of course cl numbers will be higher. The finals are a decisive match that grants a trophy and it's not on a weekday. And if Barca get there they could be the first to defend the title. Just ignore my little social media bubble that'll tell me about that match for weeks. See that is bullshit too cuz unless u go to old toilet u dont know how loud the crowd is. I have been 3 times to that stadium and when they sing it is the loudest crap ever cuz of how many people it is. Not saying they are loud every game cuz they are not, to many tourist fans, but that is what u get with a big club. But i watched a manchester derby, watching Owen score that goal live in the 97th minute or whatever it was. Okay. Should've used Real. Was at the Santiago Bernabeu and in comparison that wasn't close to Dortmund. Barca is exactly the same, quiet until a big game/derby. That is the difference with the big big teams, there fans come from all over the country and sometimes world to see them play. Dortmund do not have that luxury, but they dont mind cuz they still fill the stadium i think? But all you have to do is look at the money list and revenues to see how the Dortmund model is lacking behind others. Just being curious. Can you tell me what the "Dortmund-model" is to an outsider? In the long history of football we have barely won anything. 10 years ago the club was almost broken off for financial mismanagement. Since then there are 2 things: 1. Get rid of all debts. 2. Strengthen the bond between club and fans to keep support. After our very first journey to Asia you could argue that we slowly start to get a fanbase abroad but when you look at the clubs history it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that dozens of clubs enjoy a bigger fanbase.
You have an 80,000 seater stadium for how long? a long time right. How on earth is a club with "isttoreee" (history) and a big following at least in Germany not able to stand up financially. There is clubs that would kill for an 80k seater stadium in England, not saying would fill it every week but that would increase matchday revenue tenfold over here. How as you say you went bankrupt with all this is beyond me. That is the model it looks like to me.
Of course this is all my opinion from the outside from the revenue listings i see only.
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I have no figures for this at all but I wouldn't be suprised if Chelsea made similar if not more match day gate takings than Dortmund despite half the attendance just through higher ticket prices and more utilisation of coperate facilities and this kind of thing.
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On March 18 2016 21:55 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2016 21:52 smr wrote:On March 18 2016 21:42 Pandemona wrote:On March 18 2016 21:36 smr wrote:On March 18 2016 21:33 Pandemona wrote:
One thing i will say is that game is going to be watched the most in Europa League will probably dwarf the eventually europa league final to in terms of viewing numbers. However it wont get near champions league numbers come on now xd Of course cl numbers will be higher. The finals are a decisive match that grants a trophy and it's not on a weekday. And if Barca get there they could be the first to defend the title. Just ignore my little social media bubble that'll tell me about that match for weeks. See that is bullshit too cuz unless u go to old toilet u dont know how loud the crowd is. I have been 3 times to that stadium and when they sing it is the loudest crap ever cuz of how many people it is. Not saying they are loud every game cuz they are not, to many tourist fans, but that is what u get with a big club. But i watched a manchester derby, watching Owen score that goal live in the 97th minute or whatever it was. Okay. Should've used Real. Was at the Santiago Bernabeu and in comparison that wasn't close to Dortmund. Barca is exactly the same, quiet until a big game/derby. That is the difference with the big big teams, there fans come from all over the country and sometimes world to see them play. Dortmund do not have that luxury, but they dont mind cuz they still fill the stadium i think? But all you have to do is look at the money list and revenues to see how the Dortmund model is lacking behind others. Just being curious. Can you tell me what the "Dortmund-model" is to an outsider? In the long history of football we have barely won anything. 10 years ago the club was almost broken off for financial mismanagement. Since then there are 2 things: 1. Get rid of all debts. 2. Strengthen the bond between club and fans to keep support. After our very first journey to Asia you could argue that we slowly start to get a fanbase abroad but when you look at the clubs history it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that dozens of clubs enjoy a bigger fanbase. You have an 80,000 seater stadium for how long? a long time right. How on earth is a club with "isttoreee" (history) and a big following at least in Germany not able to stand up financially. There is clubs that would kill for an 80k seater stadium in England, not saying would fill it every week but that would increase matchday revenue tenfold over here. How as you say you went bankrupt with all this is beyond me. That is the model it looks like to me. Of course this is all my opinion from the outside vs the revenue listings i see only.
Because there were stupid fucktards who after our CL victory thought that they could buy guys like Marcio Amoroso for 25m€. That was a shitton of money back then buy hey we'll just get the money from the stock market. They went mad on the transfer market and when we failed to have success it cost us. Compare that to last year. We barely made the EL but we can pay for our roster without making new debts. The only club in Germany that can financially stand up is Bayern because guys like Hoeneß made a great job for decades and they almost always had success.
Don't get me started on all the debts clubs like Real have. Sure everybody is fine with that because they could pay all the debts if they sold Ronaldo and Bale but if they suddenly fail to make Europe and nobody buys their top players for 50+m€ they'll drown in managerial mistakes.
And about the stadium: We could probably double the prices and still fill the stadium. But then a shitton of people who helped keep the club alive couldn't afford it. People in Dortmund aren't super rich, they are basic workers. It's part of the identity and while we might not peak super high with those prices we can stabilize in the german top 2/3 which is almost the best you can ask for when sharing the country with Bayern.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Chelsea
Matchday €84.9m (£71m)
Broadcasting €167.3m (£139.9m)
Commercial €135.7m (£113.5m)
42k Stadium
Average Attendance - 41,474
Dortmund
Matchday €56.1m (£46.9m)
Broadcasting €81.5m (£68.2m)
Commercial €123.9m (£103.6m)
80k Stadium
Average Attendance - 79,856
These figures from 14-15 Deloitte money list
Source
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On March 18 2016 22:04 smr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2016 21:55 Pandemona wrote:On March 18 2016 21:52 smr wrote:On March 18 2016 21:42 Pandemona wrote:On March 18 2016 21:36 smr wrote:On March 18 2016 21:33 Pandemona wrote:
One thing i will say is that game is going to be watched the most in Europa League will probably dwarf the eventually europa league final to in terms of viewing numbers. However it wont get near champions league numbers come on now xd Of course cl numbers will be higher. The finals are a decisive match that grants a trophy and it's not on a weekday. And if Barca get there they could be the first to defend the title. Just ignore my little social media bubble that'll tell me about that match for weeks. See that is bullshit too cuz unless u go to old toilet u dont know how loud the crowd is. I have been 3 times to that stadium and when they sing it is the loudest crap ever cuz of how many people it is. Not saying they are loud every game cuz they are not, to many tourist fans, but that is what u get with a big club. But i watched a manchester derby, watching Owen score that goal live in the 97th minute or whatever it was. Okay. Should've used Real. Was at the Santiago Bernabeu and in comparison that wasn't close to Dortmund. Barca is exactly the same, quiet until a big game/derby. That is the difference with the big big teams, there fans come from all over the country and sometimes world to see them play. Dortmund do not have that luxury, but they dont mind cuz they still fill the stadium i think? But all you have to do is look at the money list and revenues to see how the Dortmund model is lacking behind others. Just being curious. Can you tell me what the "Dortmund-model" is to an outsider? In the long history of football we have barely won anything. 10 years ago the club was almost broken off for financial mismanagement. Since then there are 2 things: 1. Get rid of all debts. 2. Strengthen the bond between club and fans to keep support. After our very first journey to Asia you could argue that we slowly start to get a fanbase abroad but when you look at the clubs history it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that dozens of clubs enjoy a bigger fanbase. You have an 80,000 seater stadium for how long? a long time right. How on earth is a club with "isttoreee" (history) and a big following at least in Germany not able to stand up financially. There is clubs that would kill for an 80k seater stadium in England, not saying would fill it every week but that would increase matchday revenue tenfold over here. How as you say you went bankrupt with all this is beyond me. That is the model it looks like to me. Of course this is all my opinion from the outside vs the revenue listings i see only. Because there were stupid fucktards who after our CL victory thought that they could buy guys like Marcio Amoroso for 25m€. That was a shitton of money back then buy hey we'll just get the money from the stock market. They went mad on the transfer market and when we failed to have success it cost us. Compare that to last year. We barely made the EL but we can pay for our roster without making new debts. The only club in Germany that can financially stand up is Bayern because guys like Hoeneß made a great job for decades and they almost always had success. Don't get me started on all the debts clubs like Real have. Sure everybody is fine with that because they could pay all the debts if they sold Ronaldo and Bale but if they suddenly fail to make Europe and nobody buys their top players for 50+m€ they'll drown in managerial mistakes.
Yes i can understand this point but in terms of revenue your club makes it still beggars belief to me due to how big your stadium is and how big of a club i thought Dortmund were inside of Germany.
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On March 18 2016 22:06 Pandemona wrote:ChelseaMatchday €84.9m (£71m) Broadcasting €167.3m (£139.9m) Commercial €135.7m (£113.5m) 42k Stadium Average Attendance - 41,474 DortmundMatchday €56.1m (£46.9m) Broadcasting €81.5m (£68.2m) Commercial €123.9m (£103.6m) 80k Stadium Average Attendance - 79,856
These figures from 14-15 Deloitte money list Source
Whats your point here? Besides completely horrendous ticket pricing in the PL and a joke TV deal?
Luckily the highly competent PL managers make up for that with their absurd transfers to keep things even.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Nearly double the stadium capacity and they are struggling to match Chelsea in matchday revenue which is pure ticket sales. That is the point the rest of the figures came with the copy paste. But also makes a couple of points, commercially Dortmund is a big of a draw as Chelsea so why is it so far behind in matchday revenue is justs beyond me with nearly double the amount of bums on seats. Unless Dortmund selling £10 seats everywhere then there is something wrong there for me.
The way i see Dortmund being run is like a sports car having a 2 litre diesel eco boost engine inside it, instead of a flashy V8. Dortmund could join Bayern in terms of being a super club, upping ticket prices a bit not even majorly, and doesnt have to be everywhere. But if 10,000 seats per game went from €20 to €30 that would be an extra €2million there. Of course i am no financial expert and i did concede i have no idea about Dortmund of a club outside of what i see going on and financially what i read.
TL;DR - Dortmund could be a big club but isn't in terms of revenue, confuses me :D
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On March 18 2016 22:19 Pandemona wrote:
Nearly double the stadium capacity and they are struggling to match Chelsea in matchday revenue which is pure ticket sales. That is the point the rest of the figures came with the copy paste. But also makes a couple of points, commercially Dortmund is a big of a draw as Chelsea so why is it so far behind in matchday revenue is justs beyond me with nearly double the amount of bums on seats. Unless Dortmund selling £10 seats everywhere then there is something wrong there for me.
The way i see Dortmund being run is like a sports car having a 2 litre diesel eco boost engine inside it, instead of a flashy V8. Dortmund could join Bayern in terms of being a super club, upping ticket prices a bit not even majorly, and doesnt have to be everywhere. But if 10,000 seats per game went from €20 to €30 that would be an extra €2million there. Of course i am no financial expert and i did concede i have no idea about Dortmund of a club outside of what i see going on and financially what i read.
TL;DR - Dortmund could be a big club but isn't in terms of revenue, confuses me :D
We have like... 12 vip boxes in the entire stadium. Think I read that clubs like Schalke and Bayern have like 7-10 times the amount which explains some differences. Sure it's less seats but they cost so much that it's definitely worthwhile. As I said Dortmunds fanbase relies a lot on the working class and there have been huge uproars this year when the club wanted to take premium prices for some el-matches. These higher prices are normally only paid against Bayern and Schalke.
Near the stadium a painting was taken away and replaced by some sponsor-shit. The core-fanbase made a huge uproar that we're selling our tradition for a bit of money. And most people are proud that we're protesting against these moves. The vocal majority is proud of it's club and it's proud of giving their everything for the club. And they expect the club to keep it affordable for your standard factory worker.
Are we going to buy Ronaldo this way? Nope. But history showed us that we can nevertheless beat "superior" clubs.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Like i said, that is fine if your club want a club that way it is fine, but you will never be an elite club if you don't join the system everyone else does. It's fine either way, but if the fans are holding the club back from potentially being Bayern 2.0 i think thats pretty sad from my view.
Oh well :D
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On March 18 2016 22:19 Pandemona wrote:
Nearly double the stadium capacity and they are struggling to match Chelsea in matchday revenue which is pure ticket sales. That is the point the rest of the figures came with the copy paste. But also makes a couple of points, commercially Dortmund is a big of a draw as Chelsea so why is it so far behind in matchday revenue is justs beyond me with nearly double the amount of bums on seats. Unless Dortmund selling £10 seats everywhere then there is something wrong there for me.
The way i see Dortmund being run is like a sports car having a 2 litre diesel eco boost engine inside it, instead of a flashy V8. Dortmund could join Bayern in terms of being a super club, upping ticket prices a bit not even majorly, and doesnt have to be everywhere. But if 10,000 seats per game went from €20 to €30 that would be an extra €2million there. Of course i am no financial expert and i did concede i have no idea about Dortmund of a club outside of what i see going on and financially what i read.
TL;DR - Dortmund could be a big club but isn't in terms of revenue, confuses me :D
Or get a crazy rich russian that could inject millions and millions of dollars each and every year
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Bayern and Dortmund have almost exactly the same matchday revenue... So try again.
Oh and stop calling it a 80k seater. It isn't an 80k seater. It it 65k seats for international games and 52k seats+28k stands in the Bundesliga.
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But if that is the target shouldn't we look at oversea marketing? There is a bit more potential in matchday profits but they are clearly limited compared to earning a strong followship in let's say India. And even there I guess we're late compared to PL clubs but the last decade didn't allow us to spend money on that.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On March 18 2016 22:57 Faruko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2016 22:19 Pandemona wrote:
Nearly double the stadium capacity and they are struggling to match Chelsea in matchday revenue which is pure ticket sales. That is the point the rest of the figures came with the copy paste. But also makes a couple of points, commercially Dortmund is a big of a draw as Chelsea so why is it so far behind in matchday revenue is justs beyond me with nearly double the amount of bums on seats. Unless Dortmund selling £10 seats everywhere then there is something wrong there for me.
The way i see Dortmund being run is like a sports car having a 2 litre diesel eco boost engine inside it, instead of a flashy V8. Dortmund could join Bayern in terms of being a super club, upping ticket prices a bit not even majorly, and doesnt have to be everywhere. But if 10,000 seats per game went from €20 to €30 that would be an extra €2million there. Of course i am no financial expert and i did concede i have no idea about Dortmund of a club outside of what i see going on and financially what i read.
TL;DR - Dortmund could be a big club but isn't in terms of revenue, confuses me :D Or get a crazy rich russian that could inject millions and millions of dollars each and every year
He did that at the start but has not done that since the 3rd season. He has bankrolled a stadium for us coming up and since then we have been a self sufficient club. City on the other hand have money injected into them via a sponsorship from the owner which is where my complaints come from.
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On March 18 2016 22:10 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2016 22:06 Pandemona wrote:ChelseaMatchday €84.9m (£71m) Broadcasting €167.3m (£139.9m) Commercial €135.7m (£113.5m) 42k Stadium Average Attendance - 41,474 DortmundMatchday €56.1m (£46.9m) Broadcasting €81.5m (£68.2m) Commercial €123.9m (£103.6m) 80k Stadium Average Attendance - 79,856
These figures from 14-15 Deloitte money list Source Whats your point here? Besides completely horrendous ticket pricing in the PL and a joke TV deal? Luckily the highly competent PL managers make up for that with their absurd transfers to keep things even.
I think he was just putting figures on what I said about Chelsea probably having higher gate takings. Thanks for finding some proper figures.
Obviously there's good and bad. You could argue that Chelsea are very 'good' at generating income from what they have got. But as you say the reality for fans who can't aford to go is not good.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On March 18 2016 22:06 Pandemona wrote:ChelseaMatchday €84.9m (£71m) Broadcasting €167.3m (£139.9m) Commercial €135.7m (£113.5m) 42k Stadium Average Attendance - 41,474 DortmundMatchday €56.1m (£46.9m) Broadcasting €81.5m (£68.2m) Commercial €123.9m (£103.6m) 80k Stadium Average Attendance - 79,856
These figures from 14-15 Deloitte money list Source
Bayern
Matchday €88m (£73.6m)
Broadcasting €107.7m (£90.1m)
Commercial €291.8m (£244m)
75k Stadium
Average Attendance - 71,131
On March 18 2016 22:57 mahrgell wrote:
Bayern and Dortmund have almost exactly the same matchday revenue... So try again.
Oh and stop calling it a 80k seater. It isn't an 80k seater. It it 65k seats for international games and 52k seats+28k stands in the Bundesliga.
€88million plays €56million and average of 4k fewer in the ground?
On March 18 2016 23:00 Greg_J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2016 22:10 mahrgell wrote:On March 18 2016 22:06 Pandemona wrote:ChelseaMatchday €84.9m (£71m) Broadcasting €167.3m (£139.9m) Commercial €135.7m (£113.5m) 42k Stadium Average Attendance - 41,474 DortmundMatchday €56.1m (£46.9m) Broadcasting €81.5m (£68.2m) Commercial €123.9m (£103.6m) 80k Stadium Average Attendance - 79,856
These figures from 14-15 Deloitte money list Source Whats your point here? Besides completely horrendous ticket pricing in the PL and a joke TV deal? Luckily the highly competent PL managers make up for that with their absurd transfers to keep things even. I think he was just putting figures on what I said about Chelsea probably having higher gate takings. Thanks for finding some proper figures. Obviously there's good and bad. You could argue that Chelsea are very 'good' at generating income from what they have got. But as you say the reality for fans who can't aford to go is not good.
Which you are exactly right, there is quite a few fans who can only afford a couple of games a year but that isn't effecting the attendance and the club is trying, but also being realistic in terms of where we need to be to support a club trying to get to the highest level.
Dortmund are the other extreme, maybe it's a bit to cheap (imo ofc) and it could be so much more, like i said Bayern 2.0 could happen for Dortmund but ofc this is me looking from the outside, everyone hates the Bayern way in Germany right?
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I'm looking at this seasons numbers, and so far we have:
![[image loading]](http://fussball-geld.de/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Gesamt17.jpg)
Spielbetrieb Bundesliga = Bundesliga (matchday) revenue.
rest should be selfexplaining.
20.7m to 19.9m. Would call it even.
And while we are at it, please add the debt numbers to your great comparisons showing us how well Chelsea is managing their club.
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Whenever this site is mentioned anywhere I see it's reliability getting questioned a lot. In the end it's probably close to reality but whatever.
When it comes to Bayerns "way" I think that their managerial record has to be admired. One might hate Hoeneß and whoever was in charge those last decades but they did one hell of a job to constantly improve the club.
But of course the way they spend their money is often disliked.
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On March 18 2016 22:06 Pandemona wrote:ChelseaMatchday €84.9m (£71m) Broadcasting €167.3m (£139.9m) Commercial €135.7m (£113.5m) 42k Stadium Average Attendance - 41,474 DortmundMatchday €56.1m (£46.9m) Broadcasting €81.5m (£68.2m) Commercial €123.9m (£103.6m) 80k Stadium Average Attendance - 79,856
These figures from 14-15 Deloitte money list Source
These numbers are one big reason why I am a BVB fan.
Football should be able to be enjoyed by everyone for a decent price and Dortmund allows that.
Chelsea don't care about their fans, all they want is money.
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Atletico Madrid versus Barcelona. Holy.
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On March 18 2016 22:19 Pandemona wrote:
Nearly double the stadium capacity and they are struggling to match Chelsea in matchday revenue which is pure ticket sales. That is the point the rest of the figures came with the copy paste. But also makes a couple of points, commercially Dortmund is a big of a draw as Chelsea so why is it so far behind in matchday revenue is justs beyond me with nearly double the amount of bums on seats. Unless Dortmund selling £10 seats everywhere then there is something wrong there for me.
The way i see Dortmund being run is like a sports car having a 2 litre diesel eco boost engine inside it, instead of a flashy V8. Dortmund could join Bayern in terms of being a super club, upping ticket prices a bit not even majorly, and doesnt have to be everywhere. But if 10,000 seats per game went from €20 to €30 that would be an extra €2million there. Of course i am no financial expert and i did concede i have no idea about Dortmund of a club outside of what i see going on and financially what i read.
TL;DR - Dortmund could be a big club but isn't in terms of revenue, confuses me :D
So, essentially, your entire argument is that Dortmund isn't a "big enough club" (despite consistent European presence and significant success in the last half-decade) and that they can't be taken seriously unless they sell out like everyone in the Premier League has?
Last I checked, BVB is embarrassing every club in the PL while still making less - and yes, this includes stadium atmosphere. The idea that any English team can compare to the Westfalenstadion is absolutely ridiculous.
I really don't see a problem here. BVB consistently outperforms PL clubs while still having a club and experience that is actually good for fans. I would never want BVB to do the same thing as Chelsea. They're the poster child for money ruining football.
Oh, and everyone hates Bayern because they're arrogant dicks. No one hates them for the "Bayern way" because everyone knows that Bayern did it the right way; by managing the club and its money incredibly well.
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EPT
