• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 14:36
CET 20:36
KST 04:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)11Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns6[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 103SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1822Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises3
StarCraft 2
General
Spontaneous hotkey change zerg Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises
Tourneys
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) WardiTV Winter Cup WardiTV Mondays SC2 AI Tournament 2026 OSC Season 13 World Championship
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes
Brood War
General
Potential ASL qualifier breakthroughs? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ I would like to say something about StarCraft BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 SLON Grand Finals – Season 2
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Mechabellum Beyond All Reason Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Physical Exercise (HIIT) Bef…
TrAiDoS
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2705 users

TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 - Page 127

Forum Index > Sports
Post a Reply
Prev 1 125 126 127 128 129 233 Next
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 02 2016 23:14 GMT
#2521
No point in doing calves for 95% of gym goers.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
September 03 2016 00:06 GMT
#2522
On September 03 2016 06:44 phyre112 wrote:
Bodybuilding leg days suck.

Calves are my least favorite muscle on my entire body.

Getting rid of leg "days" helped my gym mentality!
+ Show Spoiler +
Power cleans + some form of squats are part of every gym "day". I'll vary the intensity depending on the rest of the week's schedule.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
September 03 2016 00:35 GMT
#2523
Dumb question but I've been using one of those ab crunch machines and have felt more sore than doing crunches/leg raises, are they better/as good? Could I just use those and not do traditional ab exercises? I don't work abs a lot anyways.

[image loading]
phyre112
Profile Joined August 2009
United States3090 Posts
September 03 2016 00:36 GMT
#2524
On September 03 2016 09:06 y0su wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 03 2016 06:44 phyre112 wrote:
Bodybuilding leg days suck.

Calves are my least favorite muscle on my entire body.

Getting rid of leg "days" helped my gym mentality!
+ Show Spoiler +
Power cleans + some form of squats are part of every gym "day". I'll vary the intensity depending on the rest of the week's schedule.

I haven't had "leg days" in probably two years. I was previously doing a Texas method variation with either squats or a deadlift four days a week. Just felt like I wanted something different, so I'm doing this now.

@igne I'm just throwing them at he end of my workout, I don't actually care much about them but again - I was lookin for something different, and this is part of different.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 03 2016 01:54 GMT
#2525
On September 03 2016 09:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Dumb question but I've been using one of those ab crunch machines and have felt more sore than doing crunches/leg raises, are they better/as good? Could I just use those and not do traditional ab exercises? I don't work abs a lot anyways.

[image loading]


I'm sure they make you better at doing crunches on machines.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
September 03 2016 11:59 GMT
#2526
On September 02 2016 13:03 Jerubaal wrote:
Ok, so this guy has pretty horrible organization and layout, but, based on what I think he's saying...

He starts off by describing a fairly common phenomenon: Someone has cut calories (allegedly) and probably added in some exercise, but they are not seeing much in the way of results. His conclusion? You must be lying. Not lying really, but basically stupid. Now I'm quite sure that this happens. I'm sure that plenty of people miscount or just don't know. But that argument is actually monumental. Because if we are going to believe him, then we aren't just saying a few people do this. We're saying that almost everyone who tries a calorie restricted diet does this, because almost everyone who tries it fails. I don't have a problem with admitting this possibility as a methodological problem, but the problem comes when researchers test low calorie diets and say: "We know low calorie diets work (hurr durr 1st Law of Thermodynamics), therefore they must be lying. Call up NIH and get another 10 million for yet another wash, rinse and repeat." This has basically been the last 50 years of nutritional science.

Now he gives us a lot of interesting information, but then he basically says none of it matters.

-Metabolism slows as you lose weight. Interesting, but fairly irrelevant unless you are losing a large amount of weight. His mistake though is thinking that this is the only mechanism that contributes to calorie input/output. He says right there what we all know...if you're on a calorie restriction, you are going to have less energy. It's like the reverse of the dinner party story. If I had a child that I wanted to keep very still and inactive, how would I do that? I'd underfeed them. Telling people to eat less and exercise more seems like a losing proposition from that angle.

-I also think he's misevaluating homeostasis. He's talking about a car that changes its speed based on how much fuel it has, but what if it's a car that wants to stay at the same speed no matter how much fuel it has. He says that if you're using the same amount of energy metabolically, you must be consuming the same amount. But what if the body was diverting energy or was getting energy from somewhere else? I think it's really telling that his starvation subjects still had 5% bodyfat. They had lost 25% of their total mass and yet still weren't in body builder fat range. Where was the mass going? The body was cannibalizing itself. So even if the body is getting into massive panic mode, it still hasn't used a sizeable portion of its fat reserve.

-The section on food density and hyper palatibility is kind of dumb. Does anyone really think that an apple has less calories than a donut? This also contradicts his more reasonable point that people don't know that "natural" foods like fruits have an excessive amount of calories, especially when consumed as juice. Yeah, we aren't eating straight table sugar, but we aren't eating a combination of sugar, fat and salt in a big ball either. These things don't taste good by themselves, they make other things taste better. There are lots of "hyperpalatible" sugar only things. I can't really think of any fat only "hyperpalatible" things. Are there any foods that they add fat to? Really just trans fats.

It's sad because he has all the facts there, he just doesn't put two and two together. To him, though, fat accumulation is just a calorie equation, so if reality doesn't fit his theory, it will have to be changed.

but he thinks Snickers is the best, so pretty cool guy
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-04 07:53:57
September 04 2016 07:53 GMT
#2527
On September 02 2016 03:27 GoTuNk! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2016 03:15 Aerisky wrote:
Whoa, that was a pretty great read. Fun too :p

Is there any explanation for why one wouldn't gain weight despite having a pretty high caloric intake though? I don't have an explicit food diary (probably should), but I keep rough track of what I eat/drink every day; I think I get quite a bit in calories and it's highly unlikely I'm overreporting from what he mentions. I drink soda semi-regularly, eat as much as my friends who are similar height and weigh 20-40 lbs more than I do, eat 3 meals a day, work out 3-4x a week, and get my body weight in pounds in grams of protein, but I'm unable to gain weight/mass for whatever reason :/


Are you lifting heavy weights regularly? And putting weight on the bar?

For some people it's harder, but putting on muscle mass is essentially lifting more in the compound lifts over time, doing some accesory work and getting enough protein and PWO carbs. It is that simple.

Yeah I've been doing 5 by 5 bench/squat/row + deadlift/shoulder press/pullup (only 1 set of 5 reps for my deadlift work set, and 3 sets of 8 full-hang neutral grip pullups) and slowly gaining in how much I can lift.

Completely missed my lifting goals though for this summer, and haven't been able to go up nearly as much weight as I planned. Right now it's only like 100 lbs bench, 140 lbs squat, 75 lbs row, 180 lbs deadlift, 60 lbs overhead press. I would consider myself a noob lifter too, and I'm 5'10" 123 lbs so I feel like I should be able to gain weight quickly but it hasn't been happening. I've been lifting for a while (would go consistently for first couple months each semester for the last two years, but this summer I went consistently throughout) and have pretty decent form.

On September 02 2016 04:56 phyre112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2016 03:15 Aerisky wrote:
Whoa, that was a pretty great read. Fun too :p

Is there any explanation for why one wouldn't gain weight despite having a pretty high caloric intake though? I don't have an explicit food diary (probably should), but I keep rough track of what I eat/drink every day; I think I get quite a bit in calories and it's highly unlikely I'm overreporting from what he mentions. I drink soda semi-regularly, eat as much as my friends who are similar height and weigh 20-40 lbs more than I do, eat 3 meals a day, work out 3-4x a week, and get my body weight in pounds in grams of protein, but I'm unable to gain weight/mass for whatever reason :/


Your friends are probably eating snacks in between those 3 meals and you aren't (or moreso than you are.). It's absolutely astounding the amount of calories the average person gets from snacking in between meals without realizing it. If you're really serious about gaining weight, get a food scale and start a log (MFP or on paper.) I've been "gaining weight" for years (seven years now), but when I'm not tracking and just eat intuitively, my weight stagnates for six to eight months at a time, then I get serious and start tracking and it jumps up 10 pounds in 10-15 weeks like I want it to, until I get lazy again. Every single time it happens that way. Even if I'm "trying to eat more" while not tracking, I sit within a +/-4 pound range (based on salt/water/carbs) until I do decide to track.

I dunno, over the summer I would probably eat like a bag of potato chips+beef jerky or a clif bar, a soda, like a bottle of odwalla/naked juice, maybe some red vines, and an apple or something. I didn't exactly track though so yeah, maybe that's it--overestimating how much I ate. Most of my friends don't really eat more than a couple snacks a day during school because we don't go out of our way to buy any, but because the company at which I interned had snacks and shit, I ate a lot over the summer.
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 04 2016 08:12 GMT
#2528
Yooooooo a 123 lb 5'10" man who says he "eats a lot" just makes me facepalm. You're doing it wrong man.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Garbels
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria653 Posts
September 04 2016 09:31 GMT
#2529
Just log your food on myfitnesspal. You are probably on your phone anyway. Ignore the goals and recommendations and make sure that if you don't eat something in one sitting that the parts match up( 500g of pasta in 4 meals better add up to 500g).
phyre112
Profile Joined August 2009
United States3090 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-04 10:37:49
September 04 2016 10:36 GMT
#2530
I dunno, over the summer I would probably eat like a bag of potato chips210 calories + beef jerky 510 calories or a clif bar 260 calories, a soda, like a bottle of odwalla/naked juice 0-200 calories, maybe some red vines wat r those , and an apple or something. 30-70 calories I didn't exactly track though so yeah, maybe that's it--overestimating how much I ate. Most of my friends don't really eat more than a couple snacks a day during school because we don't go out of our way to buy any, but because the company at which I interned had snacks and shit, I ate a lot over the summer.


grand total (assuming personal size bag of chips and you ate a whole bag of beef jerky) 900-1k calories. If you're trying to gain weight, you're at LEAST 2k short.
Pulimuli
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Sweden2766 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-04 11:21:41
September 04 2016 11:19 GMT
#2531
On September 03 2016 09:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Dumb question but I've been using one of those ab crunch machines and have felt more sore than doing crunches/leg raises, are they better/as good? Could I just use those and not do traditional ab exercises? I don't work abs a lot anyways.

[image loading]


Pretty sure they are worse but that depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to only work out abs and not have the functionality that leg raises/L-sits/other ab excersises where you move your body instead of having a fixed motion then go for it.

"Normal" ab work builds core stability, crunch machines just isolates the movement/rectus abdominis.
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
September 05 2016 01:39 GMT
#2532
On September 04 2016 17:12 IgnE wrote:
Yooooooo a 123 lb 5'10" man who says he "eats a lot" just makes me facepalm. You're doing it wrong man.

sad but true.

An easy starter snack is a PBJ washed down with chocolate milk. Don't let it affect your regular meals.
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-05 05:41:48
September 05 2016 05:27 GMT
#2533
On September 04 2016 19:36 phyre112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
I dunno, over the summer I would probably eat like a bag of potato chips210 calories + beef jerky 510 calories or a clif bar 260 calories, a soda, like a bottle of odwalla/naked juice 0-200 calories, maybe some red vines wat r those , and an apple or something. 30-70 calories I didn't exactly track though so yeah, maybe that's it--overestimating how much I ate. Most of my friends don't really eat more than a couple snacks a day during school because we don't go out of our way to buy any, but because the company at which I interned had snacks and shit, I ate a lot over the summer.


grand total (assuming personal size bag of chips and you ate a whole bag of beef jerky) 900-1k calories. If you're trying to gain weight, you're at LEAST 2k short.

This is between meals--thankfully my diet consists of more than just junk food. Red vines are basically sugar sticks (licorice). Sorry for being unclear, I was responding to you mentioning that most people are eating a lot of snacks between meals so that was just about the snacks I had. I would put it at closer to 600-800 calories per day since I wouldn't eat quite that much beef jerky and wouldn't generally eat all of those snacks each day.

On September 05 2016 10:39 y0su wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2016 17:12 IgnE wrote:
Yooooooo a 123 lb 5'10" man who says he "eats a lot" just makes me facepalm. You're doing it wrong man.

sad but true.

An easy starter snack is a PBJ washed down with chocolate milk. Don't let it affect your regular meals.

I'd drink milk or eat PBJs etc but I'm allergic to dairy, egg, nuts, fish, shellfish. So my starter (before first meal) was soy milk or OJ or other misc juice + beef jerky.

On September 04 2016 17:12 IgnE wrote:
Yooooooo a 123 lb 5'10" man who says he "eats a lot" just makes me facepalm. You're doing it wrong man.

Yeah I should keep track of my actual calories. Probably going to be eating a lot less during school though thanks to lack of access to free snacks.
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-05 08:16:33
September 05 2016 08:16 GMT
#2534
I can see dietary restrictions like that making it rather difficult to easily gain weight. Might consider adding a 4th meal if you can't hit between them as efficiently. Especially with jerky being relatively expensive (by weight).
Ehzera
Profile Blog Joined August 2014
Singapore212 Posts
September 05 2016 13:04 GMT
#2535
[image loading]

First day of lifting close to 2 years ago and now. Was ~88kg at the start and since then my weight has gone to 80 and as high as 94 at May this year. Right pic is a few days ago, morning weight at 84kg.

Not sure whether to keep cutting to abs or start bulking? Really wanna move up to the u90 weight class soon
“A tree without roots is just a piece of wood.” - Marco Pierre White
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 05 2016 16:08 GMT
#2536
@aerisky- What's your bodyfat percentage? And did you tell us your lifting program?
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 05 2016 16:49 GMT
#2537
On September 05 2016 22:04 Ehzera wrote:
[image loading]

First day of lifting close to 2 years ago and now. Was ~88kg at the start and since then my weight has gone to 80 and as high as 94 at May this year. Right pic is a few days ago, morning weight at 84kg.

Not sure whether to keep cutting to abs or start bulking? Really wanna move up to the u90 weight class soon


Nice. Keep adding weight. You are close enough to abs that you can get them pretty easily if you needed them. But you'd lose a lot of your frame outline if you did it now.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-05 18:44:38
September 05 2016 18:43 GMT
#2538
On September 05 2016 17:16 y0su wrote:
I can see dietary restrictions like that making it rather difficult to easily gain weight. Might consider adding a 4th meal if you can't hit between them as efficiently. Especially with jerky being relatively expensive (by weight).

Oh yeah, that makes sense. I also use this carnivore beef isolate powder thing instead of soy protein powder (besides that everything is like milk/egg based), but it would give me horse killing farts/occasionally mild diarrhea the next day lol. So yeah allergies annoying af.

On September 06 2016 01:08 Jerubaal wrote:
@aerisky- What's your bodyfat percentage? And did you tell us your lifting program?

I'm not sure, never had it evaluated, but I think it's pretty low. It's probably not a very precise indication of body fat, but you used to be able to see my ribs very clearly and shit. They're still pretty defined :/

As for lifting program, I currently have a 2-day split, 3 days a week total. Was doing 4 days a week during summer but less time now. On one day I do bench (100 lbs), squat (140 lbs), row (75 lbs); and on the other day I do deadlift (180 lbs), overhead press (60 lbs), and 3 sets of 8 reps of neutral grip pullups from a full hang. 5 by 5 on everything except deadlift (1 work set of 5 reps) and pullups (as mentioned).

@ehzera holy shit dude, ur a tank :O
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 05 2016 19:27 GMT
#2539
You should be eating like 2000 calories of chicken and rice a day Aerisky on top of your snacks. Easy to digest. Easy to get 150g protein in. You need to be measuring this. At least a full pound of chicken for dinner with a huge plate of rice. Put whatever sauces on it that you want to make it palatable.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
phyre112
Profile Joined August 2009
United States3090 Posts
September 05 2016 22:22 GMT
#2540
On September 06 2016 04:27 IgnE wrote:
You should be eating like 2000 calories of chicken and rice a day Aerisky on top of your snacks. Easy to digest. Easy to get 150g protein in. You need to be measuring this. At least a full pound of chicken for dinner with a huge plate of rice. Put whatever sauces on it that you want to make it palatable.

I do ground beef and rice when I'm trying to gain weight, chicken or fish when I'm not.
Prev 1 125 126 127 128 129 233 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 24m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 209
Railgan 86
SC2Nice 67
White-Ra 5
StarCraft: Brood War
Dewaltoss 139
Dota 2
qojqva3625
420jenkins232
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
fl0m12625
pashabiceps1406
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu438
Khaldor239
Other Games
FrodaN6221
Grubby4707
Liquid`RaSZi3096
B2W.Neo913
Beastyqt524
trigger343
mouzStarbuck342
Harstem308
ArmadaUGS183
KnowMe173
Ketroc12
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick4713
EGCTV1072
StarCraft 2
angryscii 39
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 26
• 80smullet 15
• Michael_bg 9
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• HappyZerGling88
League of Legends
• Nemesis1581
Other Games
• imaqtpie1885
• Shiphtur374
Upcoming Events
IPSL
24m
DragOn vs Sziky
Replay Cast
13h 24m
Wardi Open
18h 24m
Monday Night Weeklies
21h 24m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 16h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
OSC
3 days
OSC
4 days
All Star Teams
5 days
INnoVation vs soO
sOs vs Scarlett
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
All Star Teams
6 days
MMA vs DongRaeGu
Rogue vs Oliveira
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
OSC
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-10
Big Gabe Cup #3
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Proleague 2026-01-11
OSC Championship Season 13
Underdog Cup #3
NA Kuram Kup
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
Escore Tournament S1: W4
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Rongyi Cup S3
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Nations Cup 2026
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.