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On April 02 2013 06:39 L_Master wrote:
I'm not sure the reasoning here. Building up mileage some in the summer is smart and great. Logical progression is always something you should be aiming for. What I don't understand is the "120 mile week", which as I read it here comes across as a stunt. If you are just doing it too see what it's like...then yea there really isn't anything wrong with that as long as you don't totally ignore your body if it's really not agreeing with it.
If you are talking building to that mileage I'm not sure it's worth it. My sense, as we are starting to see with runners like Rupp, is that gradual progression is the strongest. Making huge mileage jumps probably results in good fitness gains, but doesn't necessarily allow you to absorb the training load and keep the same intensity AND recovery ability that you'd have with a more modest increase, and going from 100km to 120 MILES is indeed a VERY big jump.
Thanks, I'm aware of the differences between the metric and imperial systems. 100km/week isn't my peak mileage this season; it's the first step in a long line of increases. During marathon training over the last two years, I've put in 160km weeks, so adding another 32 on top of that in good time does not seem totally insane.
If I clock 95km this week and bump my mileage by 10 per cent a week, the progression looks like this:
Week 1: 95
Week 2: 104.5
Week 3: 114.95
Week 4: 126.45
Week 5: 139
Week 6: 152
Week 7: 168
Week 8: 185
Week 9: 203
So, if I don't do any repeat weeks, I could be at 120 miles a week for the second week of June. This probably won't happen, but even if I go at half this pace, I'll still be in position to do a 120 mile week in the third or fourth week of August.
As for the rationale, as I mentioned, there's a series of trail runs in September in my city that I'm eager to do my absolute best at, and I think this mileage goal is part of the training towards that. After this peak week in August, I'd begin to taper and really ready for them. Not sure if that counts as a 'stunt' in your books.
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On April 03 2013 02:19 Bonham wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 06:39 L_Master wrote:
I'm not sure the reasoning here. Building up mileage some in the summer is smart and great. Logical progression is always something you should be aiming for. What I don't understand is the "120 mile week", which as I read it here comes across as a stunt. If you are just doing it too see what it's like...then yea there really isn't anything wrong with that as long as you don't totally ignore your body if it's really not agreeing with it.
If you are talking building to that mileage I'm not sure it's worth it. My sense, as we are starting to see with runners like Rupp, is that gradual progression is the strongest. Making huge mileage jumps probably results in good fitness gains, but doesn't necessarily allow you to absorb the training load and keep the same intensity AND recovery ability that you'd have with a more modest increase, and going from 100km to 120 MILES is indeed a VERY big jump.
Thanks, I'm aware of the differences between the metric and imperial systems. 100km/week isn't my peak mileage this season; it's the first step in a long line of increases. During marathon training over the last two years, I've put in 160km weeks, so adding another 32 on top of that in good time does not seem totally insane. If I clock 95km this week and bump my mileage by 10 per cent a week, the progression looks like this: Week 1: 95 Week 2: 104.5 Week 3: 114.95 Week 4: 126.45 Week 5: 139 Week 6: 152 Week 7: 168 Week 8: 185 Week 9: 203 So, if I don't do any repeat weeks, I could be at 120 miles a week for the second week of June. This probably won't happen, but even if I go at half this pace, I'll still be in position to do a 120 mile week in the third or fourth week of August. As for the rationale, as I mentioned, there's a series of trail runs in September in my city that I'm eager to do my absolute best at, and I think this mileage goal is part of the training towards that. After this peak week in August, I'd begin to taper and really ready for them. Not sure if that counts as a 'stunt' in your books.
I guess it's this sense I'm getting that I am not a fan of. Mileage shouldn't ever be a goal, that falls all to close to the category of running just for the sake of having a pretty logbook.
The question should always be: "why do I want to increase my mileage, or what do I hope to achieve from this increase in mileage".
I'm not too concerned with what has been done in short week spurts, but if you do something close to what you outlined you are looking at averaging between 90-100 mpw over the course of that buildup. If you haven't at least 70, and probably 80+ mpw over an extended course of time before that progression will probably challenging even at an easy pace just based on the volume.
A jump in mileage of 10-20 per year is considered a pretty significant increase for most HS/collegiate runners, and that adding 10% thing is geared at beginning runners. That progression you outlined isn't insane, but it's far from what I would call "standard".
Considering your goal is racing well in September, if anything I'd rather see that peak (mileage peak) occur in May or June, and from there bring it back down a bit to where you are "solid" and get in a good string of workouts to take advantage of that extra strength from the mileage.
I also think that just running a bunch of miles isn't the smartest or most effective way to prepare yourself to do well in those trail races. You're talking about a 60-100% increase in volume over the period of 10 weeks, where the initial baseline is already well into the domain of serious training. Will you struggle to achieve the volume or kill yourself to do so? No, probably not unless you try to do something crazy like hammer workouts at well, but will it prepare you to race well?
In my opinion it won't. Doing that sort of progression you ARE going to be tired a good bit, and you certainly aren't going to be in a position to get in any good workouts. Running 16 miles a day at 7:00 pace or 8:00 pace isn't going to prepare you to race at sub 6:00 pace...they are totally different ballgames. You'll be really good at running slowly for a long duration, and probably "stronger", but not at all prepared to race.
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Go St. Louis marathon this sunday, trying to go under 3:05 to qualify for boston, my past marathon Pr's are 3:12, and 3:30. For the most of 2013, i've been training on a triathlon like schedule with more emphasis on running. At my peak week 4 weeks out i hit 154miles on the bike, 54miles run, and 5miles swim, with 3 hours of weight training that week; totally 22.5hours of movement, not including showers or getting ready or stop lights or anything while cycling.
The week after (or 3 weeks before marathon) i hit 129mile bike, 51mile run (with 20mile long run), and 4mile swim, with 3 hr of weight training, totalling 19.5 hours.
Then slowly began my tapering process. Hoping to be well rested for race day, already carbloaded for 1 day, on my 2nd day of carbloading now, and saturday will be my last carb load day.
This is my first marathon out of 3 that i'm nervous for just because i set a high expectation for myself.
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I think you look to be ready to go YPang. The running mileage by itself is quite respectable and you've got a bunch of extra cross training in there as well. I'd be suprised with that level of training if you won't be at least 7 minutes faster than your previous PR. Care to share some of the workouts/paces you have done?
Above all else just be smart with pacing, as you know everyone feels great the first 15 miles. Even for elite is common to open up at 5-10s per mile slower than goal for the first 3-5km and then settle into a good rhythm.
Good luck man, tear it up!
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On April 06 2013 04:40 YPang wrote:
Go St. Louis marathon this sunday, trying to go under 3:05 to qualify for boston, my past marathon Pr's are 3:12, and 3:30. For the most of 2013, i've been training on a triathlon like schedule with more emphasis on running. At my peak week 4 weeks out i hit 154miles on the bike, 54miles run, and 5miles swim, with 3 hours of weight training that week; totally 22.5hours of movement, not including showers or getting ready or stop lights or anything while cycling.
The week after (or 3 weeks before marathon) i hit 129mile bike, 51mile run (with 20mile long run), and 4mile swim, with 3 hr of weight training, totalling 19.5 hours.
Then slowly began my tapering process. Hoping to be well rested for race day, already carbloaded for 1 day, on my 2nd day of carbloading now, and saturday will be my last carb load day.
This is my first marathon out of 3 that i'm nervous for just because i set a high expectation for myself.
My twin is running the half marathon at Go! this weekend. He said it's a pretty tough couse, so best of luck to you!
As far as my training, did my first interval workout since I started running again. Trying to follow some of Daniel's workouts so I did 6x1000M @ 4:22 (T pace) with a 1 minute standing recovery. Definitely getting back in the swing of things, slowly. I'll be at 110Mi (40,40,30) over the past 3 wks after this weekend.
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On April 06 2013 07:48 berated- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 04:40 YPang wrote:
Go St. Louis marathon this sunday, trying to go under 3:05 to qualify for boston, my past marathon Pr's are 3:12, and 3:30. For the most of 2013, i've been training on a triathlon like schedule with more emphasis on running. At my peak week 4 weeks out i hit 154miles on the bike, 54miles run, and 5miles swim, with 3 hours of weight training that week; totally 22.5hours of movement, not including showers or getting ready or stop lights or anything while cycling.
The week after (or 3 weeks before marathon) i hit 129mile bike, 51mile run (with 20mile long run), and 4mile swim, with 3 hr of weight training, totalling 19.5 hours.
Then slowly began my tapering process. Hoping to be well rested for race day, already carbloaded for 1 day, on my 2nd day of carbloading now, and saturday will be my last carb load day.
This is my first marathon out of 3 that i'm nervous for just because i set a high expectation for myself. My twin is running the half marathon at Go! this weekend. He said it's a pretty tough couse, so best of luck to you! As far as my training, did my first interval workout since I started running again. Trying to follow some of Daniel's workouts so I did 6x1000M @ 4:22 (T pace) with a 1 minute standing recovery. Definitely getting back in the swing of things, slowly. I'll be at 110Mi (40,40,30) over the past 3 wks after this weekend.
Those T pace workouts aren't bad...but holy shit some of his I pace and mixed workouts are absolutely brutal.
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So I'm fairly new to running, I did a season of cross country in high school, but I was never any good at it. However I've already decided that this summer I'm going to be making a pretty big effort to get in shape for the first time in my life. As a part of this, I ended up making a bet with my dad: If I run a total of 100 miles this summer I get 100 bucks, otherwise I have to pay him 100. We're calling 'summer' from the last day of school this year until the first day of next year, so I'm looking to start jogging a bit before then so I can hopefully be doing a mile or two every day all summer. I'm excited to get started with this!
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On April 08 2013 05:34 im a roc wrote:
So I'm fairly new to running, I did a season of cross country in high school, but I was never any good at it. However I've already decided that this summer I'm going to be making a pretty big effort to get in shape for the first time in my life. As a part of this, I ended up making a bet with my dad: If I run a total of 100 miles this summer I get 100 bucks, otherwise I have to pay him 100. We're calling 'summer' from the last day of school this year until the first day of next year, so I'm looking to start jogging a bit before then so I can hopefully be doing a mile or two every day all summer. I'm excited to get started with this!
If you wanna win your bet this is fine, but if you want to become fitter and a better runner this won't do anything for you. It's just too short.
Much better to build to 3-4 miles 4-5 times per week (or more).
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WOW NICE! Great job, qualifying for Boston is so legit. Someday maybe I'll get there too. 
Quite an inspiration as I continue training for my first marathon in October (Marine Corps in DC) It's been wonderful weather around here the past couple days, makes long runs outside quite enjoyable. I've been doing very well, I was dealing with some random ankle soreness for a while in Jan and some of Feb but that's gone away. I haven't been pushing myself too hard though speed wise (still sticking in the low 8min/mile ranges during my long runs) Probably running around 30 miles a week right now. I have a half marathon coming up in mid May which is my main focus now and will be a nice way for me to tell where I am going into the summer and what to focus on for the 5 months between that and the full race in October.
I feel great now though and will plan on upping the mileage a bit over the next few weeks/months. I estimated my marathon time would be 4 hours in October but I feel I can probably do better than that, (based off my training runs it looks like I "should" be capable of running in the 3:30-3:45 ranges) I'm a bit scared to shoot too high though and not reach my goals especially since I've never run a marathon before.
I think after I clock in that half marathon time in May I'll really have a good idea of what sort of time to shoot for in the marathon.
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HAHA FUCK YEA MAN!!!!
Three hours is definitely realistic, especially if what someone said about the course not being exceptionally easy is correct. Depending on how much time you have, its usually good to go back and do some 5k work to keep that speed sharp, especially while you still have that huge marathon aerobic base. Get the 5k down south of mid 18s and that sub 3 will be ez pz.
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On April 08 2013 09:58 LuckyFool wrote:WOW NICE! Great job, qualifying for Boston is so legit. Someday maybe I'll get there too. I think after I clock in that half marathon time in May I'll really have a good idea of what sort of time to shoot for in the marathon.
Yes.
General rule is marathon = half marathon + 10 min, though in your case the mileage is a little on the lower end so a conservative estimate to go out at would be like half marathon + 15-20 min.
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Have my first ever race next weekend, only 10 miles, I feel ready cardio wise, and I have done 10 mile runs, having alot of pain in my midfoot though, and it kind of runs up my ankle, not sure if my shoes are just wearing thin, or if theres something else wrong.
Either way, I plan on finishing the race, pain or not, i'm not nearly as advanced as a runner as others in this thread, shooting for under 1:30, shouldn't be too difficult.
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I'm kind of newb trying to push my running times up, but for now whenever I do a 5km run, I have to take at least 2 days because my legs just can't handle moving after day 1 and I don't want to over-exert myself on day 2. I thought I was decently fit because I've done a good bit of badminton 2 years ago and kept decently active recently with the gym and such after about a year and a half of inactivity before trying to run, but my legs just fall apart after the run.
The run is decent without really stopping to take a breather in the 5km. I seem to be doing around 6:30-7:00 minutes per km which is fine by me at the moment, though I want to push myself to 4 minutes, or at least under 5 minutes after 5 months or so.
Any thoughts about my legs and any tips? I only have time to go about 3km for 3 days a week at the moment but will be going for more in about a month once I'm out of work.
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On April 09 2013 11:28 Blisse wrote:
I'm kind of newb trying to push my running times up, but for now whenever I do a 5km run, I have to take at least 2 days because my legs just can't handle moving after day 1 and I don't want to over-exert myself on day 2. I thought I was decently fit because I've done a good bit of badminton 2 years ago and kept decently active recently with the gym and such after about a year and a half of inactivity before trying to run, but my legs just fall apart after the run.
The run is decent without really stopping to take a breather in the 5km. I seem to be doing around 6:30-7:00 minutes per km which is fine by me at the moment, though I want to push myself to 4 minutes, or at least under 5 minutes after 5 months or so.
Any thoughts about my legs and any tips? I only have time to go about 3km for 3 days a week at the moment but will be going for more in about a month once I'm out of work.
They are sore? In pain? Need a little more clarity here, though to be honest I can't relate to that. I've never really ran into anyone that had that sort of problem if they were in half decent shape.
Over-exerting yourself is not a concern at all. Most good runners run 2x per DAY. As long as you don't do too much too fast, or run hard workouts all the time you'll be fine.
It's good that you pace yourself properly so you don't have to stop, lots of newer runners struggle with that but it sounds as if you have it figured all out. Getting to 5 min/km pace for 5k won't be a problem, just building to 30-50km a week of running with some strides here and there will most likely carry you there. 20 min 5k is a bit tougher, but if you have good natural and athleticism, decent weight, and some running talent you can get there in a few months to a year, especially with some more focused workouts. It takes some people longer, but is a very attainable goal for most guys, without having to go totally hardcore runner in their training.
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On April 08 2013 09:10 YPang wrote:Qualified for boston at 3:03:08
Congrats, man! That's legit.
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On April 03 2013 05:41 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 02:19 Bonham wrote:On April 02 2013 06:39 L_Master wrote:
I'm not sure the reasoning here. Building up mileage some in the summer is smart and great. Logical progression is always something you should be aiming for. What I don't understand is the "120 mile week", which as I read it here comes across as a stunt. If you are just doing it too see what it's like...then yea there really isn't anything wrong with that as long as you don't totally ignore your body if it's really not agreeing with it.
If you are talking building to that mileage I'm not sure it's worth it. My sense, as we are starting to see with runners like Rupp, is that gradual progression is the strongest. Making huge mileage jumps probably results in good fitness gains, but doesn't necessarily allow you to absorb the training load and keep the same intensity AND recovery ability that you'd have with a more modest increase, and going from 100km to 120 MILES is indeed a VERY big jump.
Thanks, I'm aware of the differences between the metric and imperial systems. 100km/week isn't my peak mileage this season; it's the first step in a long line of increases. During marathon training over the last two years, I've put in 160km weeks, so adding another 32 on top of that in good time does not seem totally insane. If I clock 95km this week and bump my mileage by 10 per cent a week, the progression looks like this: Week 1: 95 Week 2: 104.5 Week 3: 114.95 Week 4: 126.45 Week 5: 139 Week 6: 152 Week 7: 168 Week 8: 185 Week 9: 203 So, if I don't do any repeat weeks, I could be at 120 miles a week for the second week of June. This probably won't happen, but even if I go at half this pace, I'll still be in position to do a 120 mile week in the third or fourth week of August. As for the rationale, as I mentioned, there's a series of trail runs in September in my city that I'm eager to do my absolute best at, and I think this mileage goal is part of the training towards that. After this peak week in August, I'd begin to taper and really ready for them. Not sure if that counts as a 'stunt' in your books. I guess it's this sense I'm getting that I am not a fan of. Mileage shouldn't ever be a goal, that falls all to close to the category of running just for the sake of having a pretty logbook. The question should always be: "why do I want to increase my mileage, or what do I hope to achieve from this increase in mileage". I'm not too concerned with what has been done in short week spurts, but if you do something close to what you outlined you are looking at averaging between 90-100 mpw over the course of that buildup. If you haven't at least 70, and probably 80+ mpw over an extended course of time before that progression will probably challenging even at an easy pace just based on the volume. A jump in mileage of 10-20 per year is considered a pretty significant increase for most HS/collegiate runners, and that adding 10% thing is geared at beginning runners. That progression you outlined isn't insane, but it's far from what I would call "standard". Considering your goal is racing well in September, if anything I'd rather see that peak (mileage peak) occur in May or June, and from there bring it back down a bit to where you are "solid" and get in a good string of workouts to take advantage of that extra strength from the mileage. I also think that just running a bunch of miles isn't the smartest or most effective way to prepare yourself to do well in those trail races. You're talking about a 60-100% increase in volume over the period of 10 weeks, where the initial baseline is already well into the domain of serious training. Will you struggle to achieve the volume or kill yourself to do so? No, probably not unless you try to do something crazy like hammer workouts at well, but will it prepare you to race well? In my opinion it won't. Doing that sort of progression you ARE going to be tired a good bit, and you certainly aren't going to be in a position to get in any good workouts. Running 16 miles a day at 7:00 pace or 8:00 pace isn't going to prepare you to race at sub 6:00 pace...they are totally different ballgames. You'll be really good at running slowly for a long duration, and probably "stronger", but not at all prepared to race.
I'm generally agreeing with LMaster here. Why do you have a 120 mile week as a goal? It seems like it is more likely to do harm rather than good. If I remember right you are an experienced runner who was pretty good in the past. If you keep increasing mileage every single week without taking down weeks let alone even weeks it seems like you're going to run yourself to injury. Some people can handle it and some cannot and I'm not sure if you've done this sort of thing before in the past. Even if you have and you handled it fine if you took a long time off there is no guarantee you can do it again safely. Taking a day or two a week to cross train rather than run is safe and still provides worthwhile endurance gains.
And yes, if your main race or races are in September you definitely don't want to be doing peak mileage in August. You want some sensible progression where you transition from doing base to short, speed intervals to longer, enduranceish intervals to tempo to tapering like Daniels recommends just as an example.
Let us know what you think.
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On April 09 2013 11:41 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 11:28 Blisse wrote:
I'm kind of newb trying to push my running times up, but for now whenever I do a 5km run, I have to take at least 2 days because my legs just can't handle moving after day 1 and I don't want to over-exert myself on day 2. I thought I was decently fit because I've done a good bit of badminton 2 years ago and kept decently active recently with the gym and such after about a year and a half of inactivity before trying to run, but my legs just fall apart after the run.
The run is decent without really stopping to take a breather in the 5km. I seem to be doing around 6:30-7:00 minutes per km which is fine by me at the moment, though I want to push myself to 4 minutes, or at least under 5 minutes after 5 months or so.
Any thoughts about my legs and any tips? I only have time to go about 3km for 3 days a week at the moment but will be going for more in about a month once I'm out of work. They are sore? In pain? Need a little more clarity here, though to be honest I can't relate to that. I've never really ran into anyone that had that sort of problem if they were in half decent shape. Over-exerting yourself is not a concern at all. Most good runners run 2x per DAY. As long as you don't do too much too fast, or run hard workouts all the time you'll be fine. It's good that you pace yourself properly so you don't have to stop, lots of newer runners struggle with that but it sounds as if you have it figured all out. Getting to 5 min/km pace for 5k won't be a problem, just building to 30-50km a week of running with some strides here and there will most likely carry you there. 20 min 5k is a bit tougher, but if you have good natural and athleticism, decent weight, and some running talent you can get there in a few months to a year, especially with some more focused workouts. It takes some people longer, but is a very attainable goal for most guys, without having to go totally hardcore runner in their training.
My legs feel excessively sore when I wake up. It's fine after cool down and for the rest of the day, but when I wake up in the morning I have trouble standing up because it feels so weak. Of course, I deal with it over the day and it gets better, but the next day it still feels very weak. I guess I should run slower, longer and more often at like the 7:00 pace until I don't feel as stiff anymore.
I'm just worried that it might be something other than just my legs sucking really badly, because I wouldn't rule that out. My job basically involves 100% sitting so that can't be good for me, and I've only recently started working out and running. I'm just not sure why it hurts so much because I used to be able to run that 5km easily, at the very least without this pain the day after.
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Congrats!! And nice time :D You can absolutely break 3 hours by October!
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EPT
